do BPD exs ever attempt to reach out after moment of clarity?

[cherryblossom]

Im just wondering the above really


Do they ever have genuine moments of clarity and  try and repair relationships?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[wanttoknowmore]

Yes... .some of pwBPDs do... .But, most have shame and guilt and they can not self express and would say it indirectly... ."i dont want to talk about it"  "its past,... .lets not go there"

Its my understanding that most pwBPDs are acutely aware of what happened and feel bad inside about what happened but have real difficulty saying "sorry" because accepting that they did "something bad" means "they are all bad"  and that's very painful to them.

[waverider]

Moments of clarity/insights are common, but they come and go like the tide. It's like the emotion side of their mind takes a breather allowing the executive part of the mind start attempting some wise choices. however the emotional side comes back with a vengeance and drowns it out.

The essence of the disorder is that on balance the emotional/impulsive part of their mind outweighs the logical decision making side. But the balance of power if you like ebbs and wanes. Consistency doesn't last long.

Often they have heard the words enough that they can mirror and parrot appropriateness, but it is not deeply embedded in their values so they dont always follow through with committed action. It is rare to have lasting "born again" moments.

This frustrates them as much as you, and you have to learn to accept this rather than let yourself be deluded by a false reality.

[cherryblossom]

Thanks for your helpful insights xx

[cherryblossom]

I feel like with my new faith i will b more accepting of reality and b more grounded and take each day at a time. I realise i hav no control over others only my self and own reactions i can learn to react as and when things arise

[cherryblossom]

but i'snt that what dbt is for? to help with the ebb and flow?

[CCMidwest]

Yes... .some of pwBPDs do... .But, most have shame and guilt and they can not self express and would say it indirectly... ."i dont want to talk about it"  "its past,... .lets not go there"

Its my understanding that most pwBPDs are acutely aware of what happened and feel bad inside about what happened but have real difficulty saying "sorry" because accepting that they did "something bad" means "they are all bad"  and that's very painful to them.

"It's in the past, let's not go there"

Yeah, I've heard that a million times.

"Are you trying to make me feel bad by bringing it up?"

As if I'm in the wrong for not immediately forgiving her.

I actually think this is probably the worst thing about dealing with a borderline. They always come close to clarity, or even offer it sometimes, maybe even with an apology. But it never lasts. They always find a way to take the apology back, or to use it as a weapon.

Anything to avoid the shame.

[waverider]

but i'snt that what dbt is for? to help with the ebb and flow?

Yes but it takes a long time to change, if it ever does. Its not a quick fix

[waverider]

Yes... .some of pwBPDs do... .But, most have shame and guilt and they can not self express and would say it indirectly... ."i dont want to talk about it"  "its past,... .lets not go there"

Its my understanding that most pwBPDs are acutely aware of what happened and feel bad inside about what happened but have real difficulty saying "sorry" because accepting that they did "something bad" means "they are all bad"  and that's very painful to them.

"It's in the past, let's not go there"

Yeah, I've heard that a million times.

"Are you trying to make me feel bad by bringing it up?"

As if I'm in the wrong for not immediately forgiving her.

I actually think this is probably the worst thing about dealing with a borderline. They always come close to clarity, or even offer it sometimes, maybe even with an apology. But it never lasts. They always find a way to take the apology back, or to use it as a weapon.

Anything to avoid the shame.

A non works through emotions, that takes time, similar to grieving, and yes slowly letting go of "grudges'. A pwBPD often does not work through the emotion, they turn it off/bury it, move on so they are 'over it" before you. Then sometime in the future it can be pulled back out of the memories along with the same strength of emotion.

[cherryblossom]

thanks for your replies -I've not had a good couple days -might start a new thread about that and come back to this one when feeling in right mind set for it

[Cole]

Keep in mind that when the executive takes over the emotional (well put, Waverider) the pwBPD can experience extreme guilt and shame over the way they have acted when in full blown BPD mode. Don't expect too much in the way of apologies. If there is overwhelming shame over their behavior, facing it can be the trigger that throws them right back into the BPD.     

[hope2727]

Keep in mind that when the executive takes over the emotional (well put, Waverider) the pwBPD can experience extreme guilt and shame over the way they have acted when in full blown BPD mode. Don't expect too much in the way of apologies. If there is overwhelming shame over their behavior, facing it can be the trigger that throws them right back into the BPD.     

Excellent way to put it.

in my experience yes they reach out but only for a second. Then they lash out. It is a never ending cycle and although it breaks my heart it is basically hopeless.

[cherryblossom]

What i cant understand is when faced with the shame and guilt they dont think - ___ dont want to b in this situation again because of my behaviour - what can i do to stop this from happening again - some must think that or they wouldnt get help? More and more i keep wondering whether there are people out there with BPD traits or similar who r not diagnosed and never hit any systems and just learn to manage from trial and error theough life and make decisions not to act like that again. I don't know how useful the label of BPD is? My ex has got it now i think he will use it to justify his actions. Theres a lack of responsibility there or arrogance - how do we know whether the real dysfunctional trait is haughty arrogance / sense of entitlement. Its really annoyi g cos he started reading the road less travelled and theres an amazing bit at beginning anout character disorder and how we r all on the spectrum and its basically down to responsibility.im so angry atm i got this long text drafted out. I wont send it but my friend's partner is a consultant psychologist and he advocated to me that i should tell him exactly how his behaviour made/makes me feel - otherwise how else is he going to learn? Surely at some point ud think ___ my emotions are insane and cause me so much chaos id better learn how to manage that?

[waverider]

What i cant understand is when faced with the shame and guilt they dont think - ___ dont want to b in this situation again because of my behaviour - what can i do to stop this from happening again - some must think that or they wouldnt get help? More and more i keep wondering whether there are people out there with BPD traits or similar who r not diagnosed and never hit any systems and just learn to manage from trial and error theough life and make decisions not to act like that again. I don't know how useful the label of BPD is? My ex has got it now i think he will use it to justify his actions. Theres a lack of responsibility there or arrogance - how do we know whether the real dysfunctional trait is haughty arrogance / sense of entitlement. Its really annoyi g cos he started reading the road less travelled and theres an amazing bit at beginning anout character disorder and how we r all on the spectrum and its basically down to responsibility.im so angry atm i got this long text drafted out. I wont send it but my friend's partner is a consultant psychologist and he advocated to me that i should tell him exactly how his behaviour made/makes me feel - otherwise how else is he going to learn? Surely at some point ud think ___ my emotions are insane and cause me so much chaos id better learn how to manage that?

It is a good point that you raise. pwBPDs natural defensive instinct is to deny and deflect blame, especially when under pressure. Hence not owning fully the responsibility the lesson is not learned as they believe a source outside of them was ultimately responsible.  Which leads to having a diagnosis itself, the Disorder can be used as a scapegoat. I cant help it i have an illness can also be an avenue to handball responsibility.

The reason treatment of BPD is so hard as they can't project themselves passed the now, hence they struggle to see what is passed the disorder so they struggle to commit to the changes to get there. They are stuck in surviving the moment, not thriving into the future.

Take an analogy.

If there are alphabetical steps to reach a result. a normal person tackles A, then B, then C and so on until the task is achieved when they reach Z.

A pwBPB will start at A, want to be at Z, doesn't have a realistic idea of what Z looks like, may attempt B, but see that doesn't lead directly to Z. Z seems like a hopeless pipe dream, gives up and goes back to A and handballs responsibility to get Z over to someone else, and makes up an excuse as to why they can't do B.

The enabler/rescuer steps in and helps them along the way through the alphabet until the pwBPDs enthusiasm wanes, they give up and go back A blaming the helper who then becomes frustrated. The whole exercise only serving to reinforce the pwBPDs sense of failure and hopelessness creating the entrenched victim mode.

TBH the label of BPD is more useful for those who have to interact with them than the person themselves, though it can ease their sense of being the only person in the world that has their problems.

To regularly remind them (when not triggered)that despite their difficulties they do know the difference between right and wrong and ask them if they could describe what the right way would look like, and what the wrong way would look like. When triggered obviously emotions will cause deviations from that awareness, so you need to recenter regularly. I think of their mind like a worn mechanism, or engine, that goes out of alignment when stressed too far.

[Circle]

Great thread and insights waverider.

[JQ]

Moments of clarity/insights are common, but they come and go like the tide. It's like the emotion side of their mind takes a breather allowing the executive part of the mind start attempting some wise choices. however the emotional side comes back with a vengeance and drowns it out.

The essence of the disorder is that on balance the emotional/impulsive part of their mind outweighs the logical decision making side. But the balance of power if you like ebbs and wanes. Consistency doesn't last long.

Often they have heard the words enough that they can mirror and parrot appropriateness, but it is not deeply embedded in their values so they dont always follow through with committed action. It is rare to have lasting "born again" moments.

This frustrates them as much as you, and you have to learn to accept this rather than let yourself be deluded by a false reality.

CherryBlossom, WaveRider, Group,

This is a great thread and I really want to commend WaveRider for putting into words what a lot of NONs needed to hear. Especially this post. I too experienced moments of clarity and as WR points out, the executive side for a brief moment shows signs of clarity. It was an amazing moment when it happened & I SOO desperately wanted to believe we were making positive progress. But as WR points out, Consistency doesn't last & her flying monkey's are once again released to cause chaos.

Like others have pointed out, I too heard, "It's in the past, why bring it up" "How do you remember the past in such detail? You make me feel bad when you talk about those things, I don't want to talk about it anymore." And the list goes on and on. It really is amazing just how similar the one liners are, our stories of events are, the behavior of the BPD that was in our life. I've Googled  "BPD User Guide & Handbook" but I haven't found it yet.     Remember, one must keep a sense of humor when dealing with BPD.    

I would also agree & point out something else that WR said, "pwBPDs natural defensive instinct is to deny and deflect blame, especially when under pressure" & "Which leads to having a diagnosis itself, the Disorder can be used as a scapegoat. I can't help it i have an illness can also be an avenue to handball responsibility."    I heard more then once, "I'm broke, I have BPD, I don't know what I'm doing when I do it". Was a means for her to justify her behavior, ALL her behavior that exceeded my established boundaries.  And if she needed to rid herself of her shame, she went to church and asked for forgiveness, this made everything right again in HER world, as if it never happened at all.  God forgave her & her behavior, so should i.

WaveRider, you give a lot of sound knowledge & guidance here for all to learn from. Thank you

J

[cherryblossom]

Yes I second that... .i actually work in mh but my speciality is young people with 1st episode psychosis. The approach the trust i work for uses for BPD is called guided formulation - which has worked well for clients- the motivated ones of course - as it offers a visual guide and container for their feelings and widens their window of tolerance it helps them place their current feelings into context with past and other relationship patterns. They then go onto have CAT. I guess its just hard for me as I get v good feedback and results from my work with clients but the one person I cared about the most - no hope and no change- its frustrating that right under my nose there is an approach and service that works. Ive also been on a four day pd awareness training and the impression i got was that BPD is no longer the incurable disorder it was once thought of - however its strange that by being on these boards and taking advice that it is basically incurable has helped me most in my own recovery - goes against my principles that people can change if they sincerely want to

[JQ]

Hi CherryB,

In my research of all things BPD, i was directed by a couple of friends of mine, "one a Clinical Phycologist and there other a Ph.d in m.h. studies", to a couple of Harvard and UofMass studies. I share those with you & the group for further education & information. In addition there was a very informative show the study of the brain of behaviorally mental ill patients that supported the studies. I found it completely by accident on a satellite channel, I believe called, "The Brain" if my memory serves. I need to try and find it again and send it out to my friend in the M.H. community.  In the show they conducted very detailed MRI studies of the brains of those who suffer from BPD, BP and other behavioral mental illness and found that the neurohighways in the brain in a lot of cases did not connect to the "Hub" for further transmission within the brain or that the "hub" was missing all together. It was like the wires in your computer didn't connect to the microchip controlling the rest of the computer. So when you hit your mouse button, nothing happen. In the case of someone who has BPD, the signals never got to or through the brain processing those behaviors and thoughts. Associated with an underlying abnormality of brain structure in function that results in significant disability due to disturbance in mood, thought cognition or behavior. 

It is possible for the brain to relearn or reroute those signals? only time and additional research will be able to tell. I don't hold out much hope in my lifetime since they've been trying to reroute brain signals for head injuries that cause neuromuscular paralysis & signal loss for decades.

https://www.umassmed.edu/globalassets/center-for-mental-health-services-research/documents/products-publications/reports/rehab/should_BPD_be_added.pdf

Another friend of mine who conducts group therapy for those who suffer from BPD mental illness hadn't heard of this study and found it very interesting and took it to share with her colleagues at work in order for every one to have a better understanding and further education on this horrific mental illness.

J

[cherryblossom]

Thank u i will look, but I've always thought the brain was incredibly plastic and new neural pathways could be created as evidenced by research on meditators-sensory integration research and - for example stroke patients having rehab?  Maybe u r talking about a different process in brain and i have to look at what uv posted x

[waverider]

The various therapies for BPD are very good handbooks for recovery, unfortunately pwBPD seem to suffer a kind of dyslexia when it comes to reading them. Hence the increased difficulty in making progress. To some the stress is too great.

It takes strength of willpower and a belief that it is possible, for them to make progress.  The other hurdle is that for most it is not "recovery" as there was no former healthy state , you are asking them to evolve into something they have no experience of. It becomes like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, they have never seen it and hence struggle to believe in it, or that it even has sufficient value for the effort. It makes it difficult for them to leave their 'comfort " zone.

pwBPD often need immediate gratification and tangible goals to aim for. Long term goals are an abstract.

[cherryblossom]

pwBPD often need immediate gratification and tangible goals to aim for. Long term goals are an abstract.

this reminds me of research that Daniel Goldman used in the book emotional intelligence -something along lines of kids who were able to wait 10minutes would get a whole bag of sweet plus the sweet they were offered -vs kids who took the sweet straight away instead of waiting to get the whole bag 10 mins later -these kids went on to have impulse control difficulties throughout life

again it's this book that makes me believe kids should be taught dbt skills in school from very young age as it teaches that this is when the brain is more plastic

[JQ]

The various therapies for BPD are very good handbooks for recovery, unfortunately pwBPD seem to suffer a kind of dyslexia when it comes to reading them. Hence the increased difficulty in making progress. To some the stress is too great.

It takes strength of willpower and a belief that it is possible, for them to make progress.  The other hurdle is that for most it is not "recovery" as there was no former healthy state , you are asking them to evolve into something they have no experience of. It becomes like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, they have never seen it and hence struggle to believe in it, or that it even has sufficient value for the effort. It makes it difficult for them to leave their 'comfort " zone.

pwBPD often need immediate gratification and tangible goals to aim for. Long term goals are an abstract.

WR,

You are just a fountain of knowledge today!     I really couldn't of said it any better then you did when you said, "The other hurdle is that for most it is not "recovery" as there was no former healthy state , you are asking them to evolve into something they have no experience of."    YOU are absolutely correct that it is NOT recovery because they're never known a healthy state of mind. How does one recover from a genetic defect within the brain that shapes the behavior from the time they are born. WELL SAID!  

I believe that we, "the group, the member forums" ought to honestly use such terminology & explanations so that the NON doesn't hold out some sort of false hope with the word, "Recover" or that there is some magic pill for recovery. I believe if we are straight up honest with people to the seriousness of this mental illness, people would not hold out a false hope for 3 months, 3 years, 30 years. They can make logical sound choices based on facts instead of group hugging and explain to them that there is limited success or a "cure" with DBT or other therapies or mood stabilizers.

Explain it like, if a child is born unable to see, you can tell them that they are making progress in robotic / bionic eyes and we hope that they will be able to work in the future. In the mean time ... .

Sorry, I just like WR straight forward honest approach to it ... .no B.S.    

I have a lot of respect for you WR!  

J

[cherryblossom]

The field of mh is so complex it cannot be boiled down to one true answer. I still believe it is down to individual determinism and the combination of the right ingredients that probably cannot be measured scientifically as human existence is so complex ------- neural pathways can be rebuilt with repetition -this is why dbt in purest form works---this is why emotional intelligence needs to be taught in schools when kids brains are most plastic-people with BPD do have a reward center like we all do ----it is faulty so they need to as waverider says have realistic achievable therapeutic goals------ but don't worry I'm not deluding myself it sounds incredibly difficult -and everything is on a spectrum------this thread has been very useful for me on my journey of detachment. I know my ex is never going to put the work in ---we can all behave and display BPD traits in times of stress--doesn't mean our brains are faulty--- it is the degree to which these traits interfere with life that determines disability--- childhood trauma can change brain structure-people are not necessarily born with abnormalities. Disorders/abnormalities that seem genetic can actually be caused by generations of pain patterns -relationship patterns - behaviors playing out over generation after generation-people choosing similar partners -co dependant patterns / trauma bonds

I am generally very wary of research that promotes just a biological perspective -who funded it a pharmaceutical company? I believe in bio-psycho-social approach. All are relevant and need to work in partnership.

Anyway there feels no point in debating all this -mh funding/research is woefully short, DBT in purest most useful form over 6 months with telephone support and repetitive teaching and practice of skills is not readily available and very expensive (however could cut down prison inmates in long term) Governments are not interested in systemic / relational perspectives on mh as it would mean societies would have to change drastically from the abusive huge gap between wealthy and poor. Those in power have been to boarding schools where sexual abuse is rife and covered up and high level pedophile rings are tolerated and covered up. Research into biological causes only is convenient for the establishment as they can make money from pill "cures" and deny mh is anything to do with abuse, alienation and systemic issues.   

[cherryblossom]

i realise I've gone off on some weird tangent - i need to go to bed!

delete the number and block the number tomorrow and i'll b freer and self focused 

[waverider]

The field of mh is so complex it cannot be boiled down to one true answer. I still believe it is down to individual determinism and the combination of the right ingredients that probably cannot be measured scientifically as human existence is so complex ------- neural pathways can be rebuilt with repetition -this is why dbt in purest form works---this is why emotional intelligence needs to be taught in schools when kids brains are most plastic-people with BPD do have a reward center like we all do ----it is faulty so they need to as waverider says have realistic achievable therapeutic goals------ but don't worry I'm not deluding myself it sounds incredibly difficult -and everything is on a spectrum------this thread has been very useful for me on my journey of detachment. I know my ex is never going to put the work in ---we can all behave and display BPD traits in times of stress--doesn't mean our brains are faulty--- it is the degree to which these traits interfere with life that determines disability--- childhood trauma can change brain structure-people are not necessarily born with abnormalities. Disorders/abnormalities that seem genetic can actually be caused by generations of pain patterns -relationship patterns - behaviors playing out over generation after generation-people choosing similar partners -co dependant patterns / trauma bonds

I am generally very wary of research that promotes just a biological perspective -who funded it a pharmaceutical company? I believe in bio-psycho-social approach. All are relevant and need to work in partnership.

Anyway there feels no point in debating all this -mh funding/research is woefully short, DBT in purest most useful form over 6 months with telephone support and repetitive teaching and practice of skills is not readily available and very expensive (however could cut down prison inmates in long term) Governments are not interested in systemic / relational perspectives on mh as it would mean societies would have to change drastically from the abusive huge gap between wealthy and poor. Those in power have been to boarding schools where sexual abuse is rife and covered up and high level pedophile rings are tolerated and covered up. Research into biological causes only is convenient for the establishment as they can make money from pill "cures" and deny mh is anything to do with abuse, alienation and systemic issues.   

TBH if the governments invested more money and education on resources for family and carers many of the ongoing consequences of dysfunction would never happen. Education for carers is seriously lacking.

I think of the horrendous cost my wife has incurred on the health system as they keep slapping band aids on, and ER admissions (at least 20+ ambulance trips due to ODs), and i shudder. Since I have been here and got myself educated I have saved the health system a fortune and done more good than the entire system has been able to provide in years.

[cherryblossom]

Ur right waverider - information and support for fam and social network is invaluable as we r the ones who have to spend our lives with the person and the other 23hrs of the day from the therapy session. Plus the disorder plays out relationally. I wish I'd known my ex had BPD when i was with him. I would have changed my communication techniques and put up better boundaries - and id know what i was dealing with. Id know what was worth pursuing and what wasnt. When he did a suicide attempt I thought it was a cry for help as he was coming to terms with his ocd diagnosis. Im v keen to hear in more detail how u feel u have created more good from ur increased knowledge. Has a change in you helped reduce para suicidal behavior in ur wife?

[cherryblossom]

And jq i read the article it was an interesting perspective - I just put my gand up to being anti medical model as the dominance needs to b challenged within the system. That research was clear that it didnt think certain meds were useful - i still get a little wary that they use this type of research to only focus on one area when like waverider says widening out knowledge into family systems /networks is invaluable. And if people do understand the hopelessnesd of how it can present at least can b realistic about what is expected from these people.

[cherryblossom]

Again i guess if relationship and communication skills were taught in schools would b helpful

[livednlearned]

I believe if we are straight up honest with people to the seriousness of this mental illness, people would not hold out a false hope for 3 months, 3 years, 30 years. They can make logical sound choices based on facts instead of group hugging and explain to them that there is limited success or a "cure" with DBT or other therapies or mood stabilizers.

Part of what we do on the Improving and Saving boards is to focus on our individual work in these relationships, and even, as Waverider has mentioned in other posts, be prepared for an entire evolution of our own personality (examining codependent tendencies, for example, and working to untangle from them). Group hugging would be a flippant summary of what this work entails, whether it is a husband supporting his BPD wife or a parent supporting a BPD child.

At the core of this work is having eyes wide open about the seriousness of the mental illness, like you say. It is also having eyes wide open about our own values, boundaries, empathy, and skill levels. These are not the same in all contexts, nor are the different expressions and levels of severity of the people with BPD. It would be presumptive to think that our own experiences with BPD would apply to everyone. I extend that to research, which people tend to use in very selective ways. In one research study, a meta analyses of BPD treatment outcomes, researchers noted that the effects of treatment often reflected the degree of empathy that the doctors and nurses had toward their patients. This is not to say that empathy cures BPD, only to say that it has an effect and may say more about the kinds of treatment BPD experience than it does about the incurable nature of the disorder. Blaise Aguirre, who does research on BPD in adolescence, and Gundersen, a leading BPD expert have both said that if a BPD patient had to choose between a DBT therapist who lacked empathy and a non-DBT therapist who had empathy, to choose the latter as they would likely have more of an effect on positive treatment outcomes.

About us. Many people come here with codependent tendencies, though not all. Many also bring these codependent tendencies to the board, to rescue the nons from BPD relationships in the same way they tried to rescue their BPD loved ones.

It is a profoundly intense process to make the very personal decision to improve oneself in the context of a very challenging relationship. The key is to recognize the seriousness of the mental illness and radically accept that our loved one may not change. If we choose to improve ourselves in the context of the relationship, it has to be from the perspective of our own values, boundaries, skills, and commitment to change what we can control, which is ourselves.

On this board, this process to improve ourselves is warmly supported and embraced because for many of us, the skills we learn turned out to be less about trying to save someone and more about improving ourselves. The relationship gave us the imperative to make those changes and in that respect, the BPD relationship has become a gift.

cherryblossom, did you mention in an earlier post that you suffered from cPTSD? Apologies if I am confusing you with someone else. In any case, looking at our own core wounds is an important part of the work, helping us understand motives for wanting to save, improve, etc, as well as understanding our limits. You may not be in a relationship again with your ex, you may also one day decide to befriend him from a different place of understanding and healing. You may decide he was someone who taught you much, and it's too painful to have him in your life as a reminder. Just as likely, you may decide down the line that you learned much and reach a place of forgiveness.

If nothing comes to pass, I believe we have all still gained, pain and grief and all.

You are being honest and diligent in understanding what you need in order to move forward, however you decide to do so and I admire that. I think, too, that there is a specific kind of grief to discover after the fact that a partner had BPD. It may feel like a lost opportunity and the fantasy of having a do-over can be difficult to give up.

[JQ]

Hey CherryB,

I think we can all agree that every area of study for m.h. along with cancer, heart, kidney, etc etc etc needs to be increased. In regards to any one area of treatment, NO ONE treatment is a cure all for anything we're ailed with whether it be surgical, pharma, electrical shock, etc. etc. etc.  There is nothing on this planet that a blanket statement about anything can apply too.  WaveRider has giving some sound guidance and perspective on this string and others have as well.

We're all frustrated with BPD, we're all tired with BPD, we're all hoping that BPD would be eliminated from the face of the planet.  But there comes a time where we have to accept that there are things in life that are beyond anyones ability to manage, control, repair, establish, or remove from our lives.  No amount of medicine, surgery or well wishing would have fixed any sociopath like Charlie Manson or Ted Bundy or any other serial killer for that matter.  They're brain is severely damaged.

BPD is a VERY serious mental illness not just for us but those we have cared for and loved.  As NON's we are the perfectionist, the person who says to others, "There is nothing that I or we can't do" "I'll never quit, I would rather die then to quit".  Sadly in some cases, that has happened, try as they might some have giving everything of themselves for their BPD and nothing changed for the pwBPD.

WE need to concentrate on US!  WE need to learn why we behaved the way we did, WHY we fell for a pwBPD in the first place.  I, you, WaveRider, or the group as a whole can only learn about ourselves and learn to change the things WITHIN us. It is who we should be concentrating on to live a better, healthier life ... .a more rich and rewarding life.

J

[cherryblossom]

Yes the relationship has, like osmosis drawn up deep pain/toxins for me - pain that I have been masking and denying and not processing for years -I am learning about MY dysfunctional coping strategies/defense mechanisms my T is guiding me through this pain - I feel I will come out the other side a GENUINELY balanced, content, awake person. I feel that is why the bond is so deep because we had deep subconcious knowledge and understanding of a similar pain. But of course we had lots of laughter and fun. But that's gone and that's that. I think i'll eventually think of our relationship like a firework - not made to last - a brilliant burst of beauty and light evaporated into nothing - but for that brief moment it truly was beautiful

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Fr4nz]

TBH if the governments invested more money and education on resources for family and carers many of the ongoing consequences of dysfunction would never happen. Education for carers is seriously lacking.

Indeed, this would be a form of "prevention".

Anyway, I think this is sadly true for most of the "civilized" countries (Europe included), and does not apply only to the US.

[JQ]

Yes the relationship has, like osmosis drawn up deep pain/toxins for me - pain that I have been masking and denying and not processing for years -I am learning about MY dysfunctional coping strategies/defense mechanisms my T is guiding me through this pain - I feel I will come out the other side a GENUINELY balanced, content, awake person. I feel that is why the bond is so deep because we had deep subconcious knowledge and understanding of a similar pain. But of course we had lots of laughter and fun. But that's gone and that's that. I think i'll eventually think of our relationship like a firework - not made to last - a brilliant burst of beauty and light evaporated into nothing - but for that brief moment it truly was beautiful

CherryB, 

I have told others like yourself that on this journey of self discovery you will discover things that you might not like, that will cause pain, anxiety, frustration with your past.  I myself went on this journey and I certainly didn't like what I found ... .but you know ... .with the help of this "Group     ",  a good therapist or two, and looking in the mirror and REALLY being honest with myself I learned about MY dysfunctional history, my coping abilities or the lack there of. 

I learned with the help of others to say no, NO to the emotional, physical, mental abuse that those in my life were causing.  For a exBPDgf, it meant letting her go and for my own progress going NC. For my BPD step sister it meant going NC as much as I thought we were close, when I finally learn to set MY boundaries & her constantly disrespecting me by completely ignoring those boundaries it meant going NC with her.  And for a BPD step mother, it meant learning to tell her no to her demands & her flying monkey circus.  She constantly disrespects my boundaries and I have decided that limited contact, "LC" is the best for us to maintain ANY type of r/s.

For those who are new to the group or what somethings might mean. We all know or have a good idea of what emotional abuse is, but for physical abuse it can be more than just slapping, hitting, biting or other physical hitting abuse.  I learned that when my exBPDgf would call or text me at all hours of the night, 1am, 2am, 3am, 4 am this was physical abuse and not just checking on me to see if I had someone else in bed with me in order to calm her fears of abandonment. She was denying my body to heal from the stresses of the day. She was denying my REM sleep so my mind could recharge for the challenges of the next day. She was manipulating me in such a covert way in order to feed her need, whether by design or out of fear this was wrong.  The lack of REM sleep, resulted in me loosing my ability to make sound judgement calls, which in turned caused me to loose my patience with my BPD r/s. Which fed her fears.  My mind, body and soul took some major hits, I became a zombie both in mental clarity & physical abilities. 

This was one of my first boundaries I was taught to put into place with my exBPDgf, and learned to enforce. It did NOT happen over night and continued for awhile.  My BPD step mother continues to try and do this with calling me at 2am, 3am, 4am, 5am, but the kicker is, she doesn't leave a message. This is abuse as well, maybe you never looked at it that way but it is. This is a boundary that I have put in place and have to constantly reenforce it and sadly I don't think it will end any time soon giving her age, among other issues.  I will maintain this boundary and have at times put my phone in airplane mode so that it goes directly to VM and I will get the rest that I need and will answer in MY time.

I truly wish you the very best on your journey of self discovery!  I believe that nothing but good can come from this in the end.         How many people in this world go through life blissfully ignorant about where they come from or why things are the way they are?  I commend you and encourage you on your progress and your continued exploration!   

J

[Circle]

I like the flying monkeys analogy. Reminds me of 'The Wizard of Oz'. So appropriate for the chaotic, swarming cloud that overtakes when entering into the presence of those w/BPD.

[JQ]

I like the flying monkeys analogy. Reminds me of 'The Wizard of Oz'. So appropriate for the chaotic, swarming cloud that overtakes when entering into the presence of those w/BPD.

Circle, not to self, don't use dark purple highlight with black letters ... .hard to read, jus saying    

overtime I see my mother calling on my cell, the theme from Wiz of Oz starts to play in my mind. One of the group suggested and pointed me to downloading the theme for her ring tone ... .now I just laugh when I hear it ... .lmbo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SESI19h4wDo

J

[Circle]

I rather like the purple. Still, note to self noted. My apologies for any interruption to the flow of heavy liquids. Thanks for the OZ link.

[cherryblossom]

At the core of this work is having eyes wide open about the seriousness of the mental illness, like you say. It is also having eyes wide open about our own values, boundaries, empathy, and skill levels.

On this board, this process to improve ourselves is warmly supported and embraced because for many of us, the skills we learn turned out to be less about trying to save someone and more about improving ourselves. The relationship gave us the imperative to make those changes and in that respect, the BPD relationship has become a gift.

cherryblossom, did you mention in an earlier post that you suffered from cPTSD? Apologies if I am confusing you with someone else. In any case, looking at our own core wounds is an important part of the work, helping us understand motives for wanting to save, improve, etc, as well as understanding our limits. You may not be in a relationship again with your ex, you may also one day decide to befriend him from a different place of understanding and healing. You may decide he was someone who taught you much, and it's too painful to have him in your life as a reminder. Just as likely, you may decide down the line that you learned much and reach a place of forgiveness.

If nothing comes to pass, I believe we have all still gained, pain and grief and all.

You are being honest and diligent in understanding what you need in order to move forward, however you decide to do so and I admire that. I think, too, that there is a specific kind of grief to discover after the fact that a partner had BPD. It may feel like a lost opportunity and the fantasy of having a do-over can be difficult to give up.

Hi L and L

Sorry only just got round to replying to this -started loads of threads 2 weeks ago and became more focused on detaching -as there will be no going back for me. I don't have PTSD although some of the pain / ruminations/nightmares have been pretty intense but thankfully have worn off over time -I am putting hell of lot of effort into healing and distracting -although moments like this when life stops and I'm sat alone -it comes back -but with less intensity. I did say at one point about feeling like everyone is on a spectrum of some sort of attachment difficulty -I clearly self harm in the form of relationships! I am drawn to the dark side-we are all nihilists to certain degrees, but I must learn not to allow other people's darkness to consume me -I have a lot of empathy and it gets me in trouble at times -I have some strange defense mechanisms at times which cause me trouble -I am unpicking all of this with my therapist. What I am gradually remembering and re-learning is to focus on me and my authentic self -nurturing this will be beneficial for me and the world -I will never allow myself to get drawn into caretaking someone again -my continued use of this site and my therapy sessions and just carrying on living and enjoying life will ensure that! xxx

[cherryblossom]

I like the flying monkeys analogy. Reminds me of 'The Wizard of Oz'. So appropriate for the chaotic, swarming cloud that overtakes when entering into the presence of those w/BPD.

Circle, not to self, don't use dark purple highlight with black letters ... .hard to read, jus saying    

overtime I see my mother calling on my cell, the theme from Wiz of Oz starts to play in my mind. One of the group suggested and pointed me to downloading the theme for her ring tone ... .now I just laugh when I hear it ... .lmbo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SESI19h4wDo

J

I wondered what flying monkeys meant? I thought it meant the people with BPD's cronies? -the people they have on their side to help split you black

[cherryblossom]

I truly wish you the very best on your journey of self discovery~!  I believe that nothing but good can come from this in the end.      How many people in this world go through life blissfully ignorant about where they come from or why things are the way they are?  I commend you and encourage you on your progress and your continued exploration! 

J

Thank you! x