I think I just snapped

[on_the_precipice]

I'm about to fall off the precipice... .I'm so angry, so hurt ... .I think I finally snapped. Last Saturday  :)H and I met DD and our 2 grandchildren, ages 21/2 & 10 months half way between our place and hers, as she was coming to stay with us 2 weeks earlier than planned because she is switching medications. She has become out of control after having the second child just as she did after the birth of the first child. Yelling, physically forceful, but more verbally abusive with the little ones and her H. I had told her that we would be willing to help with the switch of medications, as she would have to stop breast feeding. I would hold the baby and give him a bottle and she could go to the other room, listen to music, or play with the other child outside until the baby fell asleep. He will cry for her to pick him up or hold him if she is in the same room or if he hears her anywhere in the house, and if someone is not holding him, he will crawl to where she is. She holds him all the time, even when cooking. She has been trying to compensate for her lack of affection with the first child by going overboard with the youngest. What she wanted to do was take the older child to the zoo, shopping, get her nails done... .In other words be gone for hours which she has done in the past. When she says that she will be home at a certain time she is is always late. Bottom line is, she can't stand staying home and being tied down. She is extremely impatient. Always has been.

Whenever she gets upset, after slamming doors, being forceful with the children, mostly the older child, being extremely rude and disrespectful to us, saying vile and hurtful things, she threatens to leave. In that state of mind DH & I don't want her driving erratically so we have in the past apologized, tried to talk her down, etc.

The exception was last night. She showed up with the kids in tow 6:00 p.m... Walked in the door with a pissed-off look on her face and said she had to pump.[breast feeding] I, having been sick the night before and the following day, was sitting in the chair not wanting to get up because I was nauseous and felt dizzy when standing. I ignored her until the younger child started crying and crawling into the kitchen where DD was fixing dinner for the older child. I got up, went over picked up the little one and held him as I sat in the chair. He screamed pretty much the whole time.  :)D finally came over and took him from me without saying a word and put him in the high chair. The older child accidentally flipped over the plate full of rice and strawberries onto the carpet.  :)D berated her and she began to cry and walk over to me as I held out my arms to her and DD comes over and says "Oh no" and try's to rip her out of my arms. Well, I wouldn't let go, for fearing the worst, and DD says "That's it! I'm leaving tomorrow!"  I got on my hands and knees and started removing the food from the carpet and asked DD, very calmly why she was so angry. No answer. That is when I lost it and said, "If you are leaving tomorrow, then I think you should leave right now, because I'm tired you you using this as a weapon. And I'm also tired of you using the children as a weapon to get what you want." This happened in the past and what happens is the nest day she acts as if nothing has happened and vacuums the carpet, etc. I don't want her to clean anything or buy me anything. I want the drama to STOP!

The day before DD had gone out with a long time friend who has a 3 month old. They came back later that night and I thought the friend would be gone in the morning. She spent the night! Said friend is BP. No one asked me or my DH if said friend could sleep over. As usual DD took advantage of my illness. DH thought I had okayed it.

As DD continued to pack the car I repeatedly said that if she came in and sat down and told me why she was so angry she wouldn't have to go. Then she said that she had to go because I told her to leave. I then asked why she was lying? I said that she was the one who said that she was leaving tomorrow. She swore that she didn't. Trying to gaslight me, again... .  I then began putting her stuff outside the door. She finally left. I was worried all night because of the 6 hour drive that she had to make. This morning I found out, thanks to my brother, that she stayed the night at said friends house which is about 30 minutes away.

I fully expect not being able to see my grandchildren ever again. I have, for the last 5 years tried very hard not to rock the boat. Not to make her angry, because of the grand children. I'm tired of walking on egg shells. I hate how she treats her children, especially in our home. It is too painful. I love both of them dearly. Not seeing them or talking to them is, and will be quite painful also. Something inside me just snapped.

Any suggestions on how to completely detach will be greatly appreciated.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lbjnltx]

Hi on_the_precipice

Welcome to the Parenting Board, I'm sorry to hear that you fear you will not be allowed to see your grandchildren anymore.  That is a very painful thought.   :'(

It's been my experience with my daughter, now 18, that she means what she says (in the moment) and later on... .when her emotions are not running at top speed and she is calm she rarely follows through on any threats she made.  Just like when your d would say "I'm leaving" in a moment of anger and then act like nothing happened the next day.  So... my point is that while it may be a little while before you hear from your daughter again you most likely will.

We all get to a point where we are fed up and want off the roller coaster, being sick is a position of vulnerability and so you reacted. The reality of losing our relationship with our child (and grandchildren) hits us and we feel extreme sorrow.  This is why we help each other learn how to stay in relationship with our BPD kids.  Is it fair that we have to do so much work because they are disordered? No... .none of this is fair for anyone.  We do it because we have the power to, we love our kids, and we want to remain a family.

Learning what to say (and not say) to help our kids, help ourselves, and our relationship isn't easy... .and it is worth it.  Have you seen the tools and lessons over in the sidebar to the right yet?  There you will find the communication skills that can help (like validation and SET), personal skills to help us cope like mindfulness and radical acceptance, and information about BPD like how it feels to have BPD and what is happening when our kids rage and vilify us.

I understand how you feel and I also know that you love your daughter and grandchildren and want to be a part of their lives in a more peaceful way.



lbjnltx

[on_the_precipice]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I feel that after reading the tools on the left of the screen that I am being asked to be irrational in order to speak to an irrational person.

If my daughter can be civil in front of other people, as I have seen her do many, many times, than why can she not control her emotions in front of me and DH? She can turn on the charm in an instant.

I think that I can answer my own question. I have enabled this behavior, first, because she was a teen  and most teens defy their parents. As she became older their was always a crisis and I would naively believe her side of the story, being that in her mind she was unjustly wronged. Why would my child lie about or omit important information? It took many years but I finally was able to discern the truth.

My Mother and Father are this way and it took years of therapy for me to realize that I had to limit contact. They were the same way. It was all about what you could do for them, usually on demand, if not you were on the outs until they needed something else. I had to grieve the loss of what I had hoped would be. Now I realize that I will have to do the same concerning my DD and grandchildren.

The question is: am I willing to forgo what I know to be morally right and true, to be manipulated and lied to because I want to be close to my grandchildren? What will that example, if allowed to continue set for them? I already know what they have to endure at home. They will not be immune from it and they will most likely emulate said DD behaviors.

I have to believe that I can endure this and not act like an addict that needs a grandchild fix.

I have first hand knowledge of this happening to another family. The second wife innocently fell for the lies and manipulations of her stepdaughter and talked her husband into allowing her to move in with them, grandchildren in tow. She the stepdaughter, was divorcing her first husband. The stepmother did everything she could to help her stepdaughter only to be stabbed in the back 9 years later because of manipulations and lies; because the father chose the grandchildren over his second wife. Why, because the daughter always threatened to take the kids away from their grandfather if she  didn't  get what she wanted. What she wanted was for her stepmother to be gone because she wanted all of her father's attention. She even told her second husband that her father came first. Said daughter moved in with her father, after her father threw his second wife out and said daughter and her new husband and all the grandchildren live with him to this day. He retired, used his VA loan and just recently bought them a house.

I really wish that this wasn't happening right now but it is . A psychologist once told me that when a person realizes that they can get the results that they want through lies and manipulation that it is a very hard habit to break because to relate to people the right way takes time and effort and they are unwilling to under go that hard oa an endeavor.

[Elizabeth22]

Hi on_the_precipice -

I am sorry for your pain and for the situation in which you find yourself. I hope you can find some strength and healing here. If I understand your situation correctly, you are not asking how to better communicate with your daughter, but decribing what has brought you the point of "enough is enough" and you want to detach? And not learn how to "better" communicate?

I can completely relate to that. My pwBPD is my uBPD DIL and there are grandchildren involved as well. I know this site is probably supposed to be teaching us how to deal with BPD people, but in my own experience, that may not be possible without selling a piece of your soul, which is what I am getting from your post.

I have no desire to deal with DIL, even if it means sacrifcing a relationship with my son and one of my grandchildren (one of the two grandchildren is hers).

Personally speaking, and I know everyone is different, it had to get to "crisis level" for me, and that is different for everyone, IMO. Sounds like you may be at your own crisis level now and that is why you feel you have snapped.  I completely sympathize, empathize and understand. I am not a person who is willing to sell out my morals and values either. But I have done it to get along with DIL and refuse to ever do it again.

I think you have to give yourself permission to detach from the abuse. I think you have to realize your own limits and not feel that you have to behave in a way that is untrue or unacceptable to yourself... .because I believe it is damaging to change who we are to accomodate other (abusive) people, regardless of their illness.

I think that is probably what is so hard about this, as the persons who do not have BPD, we are still required to walk on eggshells in a lot of ways and endure the abuse, while trying to keep a calm outer appearance and be the "rational" one.

I am so sorry for your pain  I am just learning the ropes here and I am afraid I dont have much real knowledge to offer, only support. Hang in there.  

[on_the_precipice]

Thanks so much for responding, Elizabeth22. You nailed it! I have tried everything. All of the tools mentioned on this site have been tried. There have been brief glimmers of hope where it seemed as if DD was gaining ground, but it did not last long at all. I believe that with this latest crises detachment has already begun to happen. It was inevitable. It's the grieving process that is hard to go through. Grieving for what could and should have been. My heart goes out to you also. How much nicer would it be to have a wonderful relationship with your DIL? Thanks for your support. It means a lot to me.   

[Elizabeth22]

Thanks so much for responding, Elizabeth22. You nailed it! I have tried everything. All of the tools mentioned on this site have been tried. There have been brief glimmers of hope where it seemed as if DD was gaining ground, but it did not last long at all. I believe that with this latest crises detachment has already begun to happen. It was inevitable. It's the grieving process that is hard to go through. Grieving for what could and should have been. My heart goes out to you also. How much nicer would it be to have a wonderful relationship with your DIL? Thanks for your support. It means a lot to me.  

You are most welcome,  on_the_precipice   and thank you for your kind words to me. Yes... .the grieving process, I am experiencing it now. But, I think I realized that to continue in the circle of dysfunction would only delay the inevitable grieving process, or if I stopped grieving and started enabling again, I would have to start the grieving process all over again. For me, it was a foregone conclusion.

So, I started thinking about other people in my life - my grandson,  my husband, my daughter and how they might need me and deserve the best I had to offer and I could not give that if I was involved in this seemingly never ending cycle with my son and DIL. I thought about myself and how I deserved to be free of the anxiety that resulted from my son and DIL's poor choices, and how I didn't deserve the consequences that should be theirs alone. I HAD to choose me, my life and my other loved ones.

Yes, it would have been nice if I could have a DIL who was healthy and not destructive and vicious. I grieve the loss of that too. But I think, as you start to move away from it all and let yourself grieve and feel the freedom from all of this, it is a relief. I have experienced guilt over feeling relieved and that is kind of hard, but then I remember other people need me to  be in their lives too and need me whole and healthy, and I need that for myself as well. My husband is not my son's father. I am divorced and remarried. My husband did not sign up for this, but he has been very supportive and would never make me choose. But its not fair, you know? My daughter is grown and married and just exasperated with the whole  thing. It's not fair to her either.

Like you, I also have very dysfunctional parents and I thought that once I was over the trauma of that, life would be good. It seems cruel to have to deal with this with both your parents and your children. It hurts a lot. I thought once I healed myself from past abuse from my parents, I would be free to live a happy life. I never envisioned this kind of problem with one of my children, so it makes it doubly hard.

But, we have to play the hand we are dealt and not shortchange ourselves by getting lost in the dysfunction of other people. We deserve that. We owe ourselves that. And we can only help people to the extent they are willing to be helped, and when we reach the end of what we think we can do or tolerate, we have to give ourselves permission to let these people go, and get on with our own lives.

I know how hard it is with grandchildren involved, but as I have read so many times here, they are used as pawns.  So, at best, your relationship could be very off and on. We had prepared for this possibility with our grandsons and decided that instead of being at the mercy of the push and pull of BPD whims, we would have to wait until the child was older and try to re-establish the relationship then, and explain why. Not ideal, but it seemed better than having them or us held hostage. GS8 is from my son's former fiance' and we have a relationship with him and his mom. GS3 is from son and uBPD DIL and I know I will probably never have a relationship with him as she was using him as pawn when she was pregnant with him and he wasn't even born yet. I knew then to just back away, and I did.

Its cliche but true - we cannot control what others do, only our reactions to it.

Give yourself permission to let go and grieve so you can begin to heal. You deserve it  

[js friend]

Hi on_ the_ precipice.

I also have 2gc similiar in age to your own and your post is very similar to what i had to deal with when my dd20 when  moved back in temporarily earlier this year with the children. She moved back on a shorterm basis as her own home was having some modernisation done and believe me, I couldnt wait for her to return to her own home. It was a nightmare having her back here. My dd has very strong NPD traits and has the expectation that everyone should run around after her.This included her often laying in bed till noon taking it for granted that i or another member of the family would see to the gc. The house was a mess as she wouldnt pick up after herself or the children, and she would make plans to go out with friends and just expect me to drop everything to babysit.She went balistic infront of the gc when I dared to ask for some notice if she wanted to go out accusing me of not wanting her to have a life!

Inbetween all of this jollity dd would also threaten to leave and take the children with her as she felt she was being disrespected. My response to that was it was her choice. There was no begging or pleading with her from me for her to stay and of course she thought better of it.


Being aware that our dds  often lie and manipulate doesnt mean that we condone it, it means that we are aware of it and are in control of our own responses to it. When my dd is caught in a blatant lie I can move past it much more easily now. Before it was soo important for me that she told the truth and I would waste so  much of my time and energy trying to prove she was lying, or trying to remember who said what. Iam now also more aware of when she is trying to manipulate and I dont let it happen.

By using the tools on this site I have become less reactionary towards the things my dd says and does and have become a more chilled out person now than i ever was before. I wont be goaded into arguments and avoid the circular ones that get us no where. That frustrates dd as she likes a good argument. Anytime or any place she will argue. Even infront of the gc she will goad and goad for a reaction. What they have already seen between dd and exbf is frightening as both were violent around gc. :'(

Iam at a point where I just dont want the drama anymore. If my dd wants to live with all this negativity in her life then that is up to her but I wont. I wont chase her either.The pushpull is too much and never ending and Iam getting too old for it. If Iam cut out of gc lives again I will be seeking legal advice and dd knows this so i dont walk on  eggshells over the threat of loss of contact with them.

I will always model good behaviour when Iam around gc and I still do with my dd in the hope that one day she will actually see that there is a better way to live.

I feel that i have detached from my dd but I have done it with love and not anger and it didnt happen overnight. I think it is a gradual process self preservation and of putting your energies elsewhere. My focus now are my gc and I put all my energy there. Communication between us is still very limited but it is still there which i believe is because i was prepared to work on myself as I believe that gc should experience healthy family dynamic if possible of grandma communicating with dd in a healthy way and visa versa.

S.E.T  and validation often works better for me when dd and I communicate by text as it allows time for me to come up with a response that wont trigger her.It is often a really toned down version of what i would really like to say to dd but i have to say it really works.

And my r/s with dd... .It is what it is... .as they say

[thefixermom]

"The question is: am I willing to forgo what I know to be morally right and true, to be manipulated and lied to because I want to be close to my grandchildren?"

YES, this is the place I recently reached, too!  I don't have grandchildren, thank goodness, but was ALWAYS working to have a relationship with my daughter and I was going against many of the truths that spoke inside me in my effort to see things HER way, to validate HER accusations, opinions, feelings, you name it.  And while during the time I did those things we did get along better, it wasn't very authentic and I believed I was now manipulating her as well as denying her my true self and in the end she still left and now treats me with dismissive arrogance. It took 20 years but I have finally detached without effort. I still love her and mourn the great mother/daughter relationship that was at our fingertips had she decided to stop playing her games... .but I'm free now and have moved on to create and enjoy my life to the best of my ability without being brought down with my worry and sadness. I feel at least 10 years younger!

[AVR1962]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I feel that after reading the tools on the left of the screen that I am being asked to be irrational in order to speak to an irrational person.

If my daughter can be civil in front of other people, as I have seen her do many, many times, than why can she not control her emotions in front of me and DH? She can turn on the charm in an instant.

I think that I can answer my own question. I have enabled this behavior, first, because she was a teen  and most teens defy their parents. As she became older their was always a crisis and I would naively believe her side of the story, being that in her mind she was unjustly wronged. Why would my child lie about or omit important information? It took many years but I finally was able to discern the truth.

My Mother and Father are this way and it took years of therapy for me to realize that I had to limit contact. They were the same way. It was all about what you could do for them, usually on demand, if not you were on the outs until they needed something else. I had to grieve the loss of what I had hoped would be. Now I realize that I will have to do the same concerning my DD and grandchildren.

The question is: am I willing to forgo what I know to be morally right and true, to be manipulated and lied to because I want to be close to my grandchildren? What will that example, if allowed to continue set for them? I already know what they have to endure at home. They will not be immune from it and they will most likely emulate said DD behaviors.

I have to believe that I can endure this and not act like an addict that needs a grandchild fix.

I have first hand knowledge of this happening to another family. The second wife innocently fell for the lies and manipulations of her stepdaughter and talked her husband into allowing her to move in with them, grandchildren in tow. She the stepdaughter, was divorcing her first husband. The stepmother did everything she could to help her stepdaughter only to be stabbed in the back 9 years later because of manipulations and lies; because the father chose the grandchildren over his second wife. Why, because the daughter always threatened to take the kids away from their grandfather if she  didn't  get what she wanted. What she wanted was for her stepmother to be gone because she wanted all of her father's attention. She even told her second husband that her father came first. Said daughter moved in with her father, after her father threw his second wife out and said daughter and her new husband and all the grandchildren live with him to this day. He retired, used his VA loan and just recently bought them a house.

I really wish that this wasn't happening right now but it is . A psychologist once told me that when a person realizes that they can get the results that they want through lies and manipulation that it is a very hard habit to break because to relate to people the right way takes time and effort and they are unwilling to under go that hard oa an endeavor.

Good for you, absolutely wonderful observation. I too have had the very same situation with family. No, we cannot permit this. We need to learn how to deal with it so that we do not repeat our own history with our parents. We learned to let people abuse us at a young age and our children are no exception.

[DisneyMom]

Hi on_ the_ precipice.

I also have 2gc similiar in age to your own and your post is very similar to what i had to deal with when my dd20 when  moved back in temporarily earlier this year with the children. She moved back on a shorterm basis as her own home was having some modernisation done and believe me, I couldnt wait for her to return to her own home. It was a nightmare having her back here. My dd has very strong NPD traits and has the expectation that everyone should run around after her.This included her often laying in bed till noon taking it for granted that i or another member of the family would see to the gc. The house was a mess as she wouldnt pick up after herself or the children, and she would make plans to go out with friends and just expect me to drop everything to babysit.She went balistic infront of the gc when I dared to ask for some notice if she wanted to go out accusing me of not wanting her to have a life!

Inbetween all of this jollity dd would also threaten to leave and take the children with her as she felt she was being disrespected. My response to that was it was her choice. There was no begging or pleading with her from me for her to stay and of course she thought better of it.


Being aware that our dds  often lie and manipulate doesnt mean that we condone it, it means that we are aware of it and are in control of our own responses to it. When my dd is caught in a blatant lie I can move past it much more easily now. Before it was soo important for me that she told the truth and I would waste so  much of my time and energy trying to prove she was lying, or trying to remember who said what. Iam now also more aware of when she is trying to manipulate and I dont let it happen.

By using the tools on this site I have become less reactionary towards the things my dd says and does and have become a more chilled out person now than i ever was before. I wont be goaded into arguments and avoid the circular ones that get us no where. That frustrates dd as she likes a good argument. Anytime or any place she will argue. Even infront of the gc she will goad and goad for a reaction. What they have already seen between dd and exbf is frightening as both were violent around gc. :'(

Iam at a point where I just dont want the drama anymore. If my dd wants to live with all this negativity in her life then that is up to her but I wont. I wont chase her either.The pushpull is too much and never ending and Iam getting too old for it. If Iam cut out of gc lives again I will be seeking legal advice and dd knows this so i dont walk on  eggshells over the threat of loss of contact with them.

I will always model good behaviour when Iam around gc and I still do with my dd in the hope that one day she will actually see that there is a better way to live.

I feel that i have detached from my dd but I have done it with love and not anger and it didnt happen overnight. I think it is a gradual process self preservation and of putting your energies elsewhere. My focus now are my gc and I put all my energy there. Communication between us is still very limited but it is still there which i believe is because i was prepared to work on myself as I believe that gc should experience healthy family dynamic if possible of grandma communicating with dd in a healthy way and visa versa.

S.E.T  and validation often works better for me when dd and I communicate by text as it allows time for me to come up with a response that wont trigger her.It is often a really toned down version of what i would really like to say to dd but i have to say it really works.

And my r/s with dd... .It is what it is... .as they say

This is a great post. I completely understand what you mean about letting go of trying so hard to catch her in a lie. What I have come to accept, is that all confronting a lie EVER brings is a tidal wave of negative emotions, arguments, more lies, and/or emphatic denials, and can often trigger a rage state, meltdown, or other dramatic behavior to deflect attention from the issue at hand. I find it works best to just completely ignore any lies, no matter how much I may be cringing inside. I may not be calling out the lies anymore, but I'm certainly not playing along with them either. Not rewarding any of it with attention.