Update on parenting coordinator rejection by exH

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

So our divorce was final a few months ago and we started with a PC.  Right away my exH was honest and told her about his mental health issues.  She spoke with his therapist.  We have had two meetings with her.  So that was good.  She is not very diplomatic and seemed to side with me a lot, which upset exH.  But she is strong willed and pretty good.

Now exH won't go to our next meeting and wants to cancel her and find another one.

Our divorce agreement says we have to pick a PC, stay for 6 months, and comply with the retainer agreement.

I've narrowed my choices to 2 options:

1) Tell him no.  I want to stick with current one.  He probably won't go back, so that would allow me to bring it up down the road if I think we need one, or if I want to say he's in contempt on a few things.  I don't have the money to go to court over it right now, but may someday.

2)  Tell him ok as long as he picks one of the next two people I recommend.  I do have two others I think would be good.  However, obviously he can't keep rejecting all of them - that's not acceptable.  Has to pick one of the two and stick with it.

He gave a suggestion of a guy whose retainer is $7,000.  The guy seems pretty good, but if I spend that money (by maxing credit cards), I won't have it for other court stuff I may need in the future (I always worry I may need to get a psych eval of husband down the road).

I don't want to think about money - I want to think about my kids.  But I do need some money for emergencies.

I am strongly leaning toward choice number 2.

Livedandlearned asked what my goals are.  One is to have someone familiar with both of us who understands the situation and knows the courts too, just in case my exH does something like stops seeing his T, cancels our kids' doc appointments, other nonsense.  That person could testify in court or tell my exH to knock it off or whatever.  Right now my x is seeing his T a lot and things seem under control, but anything can happen. I'd rather not have only lawyers to consult when things go bad.  Lawyers can be self serving and aren't counselors.   My other goal is to have someone to help us figure out the right things to do in the future, even if it's how to talk to our kids about divorce some day.

exH gets triggered and does things out of spite so that's why it helps me to have a PC.  BUT I am thinking that in a year, the kids are older and I may have more money. 

My conundrum:  Part of me thinks if we drop the PC now then I can ask the court to appoint one in a year.  But I also risk having to go to court to do it, whereas now I can at least have someone in place.  I think it's best to have someone now.

I think I've mostly figured this one out.  Have to try to clue my lawyer in.  Wondering if there are any pitfalls I'm missing.

[momtara]

So our divorce was final a few months ago and we started with a PC.  Right away my exH was honest and told her about his mental health issues.  She spoke with his therapist.  We have had two meetings with her.  So that was good.  She is not very diplomatic and seemed to side with me a lot, which upset exH.  But she is strong willed and pretty good.

Now exH won't go to our next meeting and wants to cancel her and find another one.

Our divorce agreement says we have to pick a PC, stay for 6 months, and comply with the retainer agreement.

I've narrowed my choices to 2 options:

1) Tell him no.  I want to stick with current one.  He probably won't go back, so that would allow me to bring it up down the road if I think we need one, or if I want to say he's in contempt on a few things.  I don't have the money to go to court over it right now, but may someday.

2)  Tell him ok as long as he picks one of the next two people I recommend.  I do have two others I think would be good.  However, obviously he can't keep rejecting all of them - that's not acceptable.  Has to pick one of the two and stick with it.

He gave a suggestion of a guy whose retainer is $7,000.  The guy seems pretty good, but if I spend that money (by maxing credit cards), I won't have it for other court stuff I may need in the future (I always worry I may need to get a psych eval of husband down the road).

I don't want to think about money - I want to think about my kids.  But I do need some money for emergencies.

I am strongly leaning toward choice number 2.

Livedandlearned asked what my goals are.  One is to have someone familiar with both of us who understands the situation and knows the courts too, just in case my exH does something like stops seeing his T, cancels our kids' doc appointments, other nonsense.  That person could testify in court or tell my exH to knock it off or whatever.  Right now my x is seeing his T a lot and things seem under control, but anything can happen. I'd rather not have only lawyers to consult when things go bad.  Lawyers can be self serving and aren't counselors.   My other goal is to have someone to help us figure out the right things to do in the future, even if it's how to talk to our kids about divorce some day.

exH gets triggered and does things out of spite so that's why it helps me to have a PC.  BUT I am thinking that in a year, the kids are older and I may have more money. 

My conundrum:  Part of me thinks if we drop the PC now then I can ask the court to appoint one in a year.  But I also risk having to go to court to do it, whereas now I can at least have someone in place.  I think it's best to have someone now.

I think I've mostly figured this one out.  Have to try to clue my lawyer in.  Wondering if there are any pitfalls I'm missing.

[livednlearned]

He gave a suggestion of a guy whose retainer is $7,000.

Whaa? Wow. $7,000. This seems outrageous. My PC retainer for a one-year contract was $1,800. She was a PhD and trained other PCs, and was considered by the courts to be the best in the system.

My conundrum:  Part of me thinks if we drop the PC now then I can ask the court to appoint one in a year.  But I also risk having to go to court to do it, whereas now I can at least have someone in place.  I think it's best to have someone now.

The reason there are PCs is because court doesn't want parents running to court every time there's a disagreement. I would be concerned that the court looks at your case, sees that you switched PCs once or twice, and thinks that you seem to have a handle on it.

What you could do is insist on sticking with PC as per the order. It's in an order, it's a boundary, your ex has no compelling reason to deviate from it, and he participated in choosing the current PC. Insist on the boundary, then he of course does not cooperate. So... . then you go to court, and your lawyer says, "Your honor, it says we have to stick with the PC for 6 months. We did. He is in contempt. My client paid the retainer and is out a bunch of money. Retainer for a new PC is $7K, which my client does not have. Make him cooperate. If he cannot cooperate, then my client wants legal decision-making or sole legal." Then the court says, "Mr. Momtara, you gotta pay the remaining retainer so that momtara isn't footing a bill that you're walking out on, and court will order a new PC. If you don't participate in court-ordered PC, then momtara gets default decision-making." Then after you do that for a while, you file for sole legal custody (if that's how it works in your state).

Something like that.

[momtara]

Excellent suggestion.  Thank you. 

Regarding money, unfortunately, I live in a state with wealthy people and high retainers.  Life would be grand if PC's were $1800 around here! 

Some of your suggestions don't work in my case.  H has no money, although I could still use the threat of him spending money to my advantage.  I'd like sole decision making, but I have physical custody for 88 percent of the time so I make most decisions anyway. 

But the other stuff is good food for thought.  Thank you.

[livednlearned]

Excellent suggestion.  Thank you. 

Regarding money, unfortunately, I live in a state with wealthy people and high retainers.  Life would be grand if PC's were $1800 around here! 

Some of your suggestions don't work in my case.  H has no money, although I could still use the threat of him spending money to my advantage.  I'd like sole decision making, but I have physical custody for 88 percent of the time so I make most decisions anyway. 

But the other stuff is good food for thought.  Thank you.

Court can be very objective about things. If your ex doesn't have money to pay retainer, court doesn't care. He doesn't like the PC? Then he has to pay the difference and come up with the new retainer. He still doesn't have the money? Then momtara gets all decision-making. He is being difficult, you are trying to accommodate him. Court would see him being difficult, and would not accommodate him. He is a grown up, they would hold him to that standard. You are in a good position -- you're the mom, you have 88% custody, the PC gets it, your ex has been diagnosed, he's living with his parents, and has no job. You just need to get clear about your goals, and figure out the best strategy.

Just following some of the stories of people who have passed through here, clear goals lead to better outcomes. Not always, because there are bad judges, but most of the time clear goals = good outcomes. You go into court and you bring your A game, and spell out a clear plan for the judge, who looks at the documentation, listens to the experts, and recognizes that you have thought this through. You hand the judge what you think is best for the child, and judge sees that you have your act together, are consistent, know what's best for the kids, don't waver from your goals, and judge finds you credible and solid.

 

Livedandlearned asked what my goals are.  One is to have someone familiar with both of us who understands the situation and knows the courts too, just in case my exH does something like stops seeing his T, cancels our kids' doc appointments, other nonsense.  That person could testify in court or tell my exH to knock it off or whatever.  Right now my x is seeing his T a lot and things seem under control, but anything can happen. I'd rather not have only lawyers to consult when things go bad.  Lawyers can be self serving and aren't counselors.   My other goal is to have someone to help us figure out the right things to do in the future, even if it's how to talk to our kids about divorce some day.

A clear goal would be: Ex might interfere with medical decisions. Goal: to have legal custody of them.

[GaGrl]

Option #1 - Follow the court order for the specified time. Don't start accommodating his whims and preferences - it's FAR too early in the game to set that type of precedent.

[david]

I agree, you already have a pc and he already went. If he wants to change than he should shoulder the difference in the money. That is his choice to make. Otherwise follow what you are already doing. He is in contempt if he doesn't go. Make sure you are documenting all of this. Times, dates, etc. If he doesn't have any money than why is he suggesting a new pc with a $7,000 retainer. Answer, to drag things out as much as possible. That is a reasonable conclusion. Courts want reasonable answers. You don't have to give the answer. He has to give the reasonable answer since he wants the change. They will figure it out or ex will have to come up with a reasonable answer.

If you can , talk to your atty and find out if the contempt charge can be done pro se with some guidance. This will lower your cost. the first time I did something pro se I was very intimidated. However, I had everything in writing and followed my script. The court sided with me for the most part. I've been pro se a few times. It's a lot of work and you have to make sure everything is filled out correctly and also filed on time and in the right sequence. YOu may be able to go to a womans help group for assistance. My ex used them in the beginning. She stopped when they figured her out.

[ForeverDad]

Option #1 - Follow the court order for the specified time. Don't start accommodating his whims and preferences - it's FAR too early in the game to set that type of precedent.

This is a time for firm boundaries, not just for him but for you too.  This is an excellent opportunity to dig in your heels and say No, we stick with this PC.  In his perception, your reasonableness, niceness, accommodating style, etc all equate to weakness and virtually invite him to push for more and more concessions.  Not only do you not want him getting used to you relenting for his every demand, but you can't afford a new PC.  And... . you have in mind possibly 3 PCs you could use.  Why discard one, a good one, after just a few months?  What will you do when you've used all three, then what, go back to the first or work your way down the PC list of rejects?

If he still refuses to attend?  Proceed without him.  If he ought to be informed of the outcome then ask the PC to notify him of the topics and decisions made in his absence.

In other words, the unspoken but clear message to him is, "Tough!  Man up, this is post-marriage life.  This is the way it is and the way it has to be."  Any vacillation and he will be dismantling your progress bit by bit.

How do I say it?  Be one tough cookie.  Not mean or angry, just tough and firm.

[momtara]

All very good ideas.  Thank you!

The pro se suggestion is a good one.  I think a judge would be happy to make sure we have a PC.  It's not like I'm asking for much.

My ultimate goal would not be sole decision making because I have most of that power already.  But I guess when the kids get older, it might be a good thing to have?  They are very young now so it's easier to make decisions.  I think it might just make him feel powerless regarding his own kids, take away the perception he has of involvement.  So I don't know for sure that I need that.  This is BPD, after all, and perceptions matter to him.  

My concern about not giving in is... . that forces my hand.  If he refuses to go, then I either have to go into court, or do nothing and be without a PC.  If I give him another choice, at least we have a pc for 6 months and if he rejects her too, then it looks worse for him.

The PC's name isn't in our final settlement.  It just says we need a pc for at least 6 months.  We chose this one, went twice, and now he wants out.  If her name was in there, then I definitely wouldn't be backing down, but it's not as cut and dried.

I guess I have to be strong.  I am going to email my L later.  I think I am fine with either direction, but you've all given me good ideas on being firm about this.  

You're all gonna get mad at me, but I do worry that by not compromising a little, he could be the same way to me someday.  In the world of family court, you never know when the tables will get turned.

[momtara]

ok, weighing some pluses and minuses:

Option 1:  Telling him we're sticking with the current one no matter what.

Pluses:  Leaves him in contempt if he rejects her.  Saves me money on a new PC.  Down the road, I can bring this up in court to get a PC if we need one even more then.  And who knows, maybe it means he'll stick with this one.

Minuses:  Means we may be without a PC.  And it puts burden on me to go to court to get another one.

Option 2:  Giving him one more chance with a new one.

Pluses:  Likely gets us a PC for a little while longer.  May not have to deal with court.  If he quits next PC, shows an even greater pattern. 

Minuses:  Costs me more, throws away another PC choice, and if he complies and this one likes him, this one could even contradict the last one.

Third option:  Spend money I don't have and get a $3500 retainer one appointed by court (who will likely go thru 2+ retainers in one year, as around here, many of them are $350 an hour).  May have to wait on this option.

[ForeverDad]

You're all gonna get mad at me, but I do worry that by not compromising a little, he could be the same way to me someday.  In the world of family court, you never know when the tables will get turned.

No, not mad, you're thinking and pondering your options, that's a good thing.  However, if the roles were ever reversed, don't imagine that your being nice now would be reciprocated later.  Reciprocity is a rare event and if it happens then it usually comes with strings attached.

Rather than seeking sole custody, does your state allow tie-breaker status?  It means you still involve him in major decisions but if he won't agree then you are the tie-breaker.  Decision-making is similar but I believe it leans more toward you making the decision first and then informing him.  Either method reduces the time in court, in mediation or consulting with a PC.

[Matt]

Yeah, I'm with everybody else here - and frankly this isn't a complicated question in my view.  Stick with the professional who was appointed by the court.  If the other party bails - violating the court order - you stick to what is right - keep working with the PC - don't even give your ex a hint that you might consider dropping her.

The only way you should agree to drop the PC is if you really think she is not doing an acceptable job, and you and your ex both agree who will take her place.  If you both decide that someone else would be better - if you yourself really think the change is best - then go for it - ask the court to approve the change.

But don't give in a single inch if you think the current PC is doing an OK job.  If your ex quits coming to the meetings, that's his choice - you keep coming to the meetings and working with the PC constructively.  Do what is best for the child, not what will appease your ex.

[momtara]

Problem is, she wasn't appointed by the court.  We just had in our settlement agreement that we pick A pc together and go to one for at least 6 months.  IF the court picked her, then yeah, it'd be an easy answer for me.  Already, I am paying 100 percent for her so it may look like she's biased. 

The thought I had this morning is that if I do go back to court to get one appointed, then I am in the court system again and he and his lawyer can ask for other stuff.  I know I shouldn't let myself be governed by fear, though. 

I kind of compromised with my settlement in the end and made the part about a PC a little toothless.  And frankly, I was worried we'd get a bad one - that's why I put in that we get one for just 6 months.  Now that I know they (at least this one) see the obvious, I am not as worried - but there are still bad ones out there, I imagine, and clueless ones who'd be swayed by my exH.

[GaGrl]

Just tell him you are following the court order for the 6 month period. The fact that the original choice of PC was up to the two of you is really irrelevant - that's done. You are now fulfilling the CO of having that PC for 6 months. I agree with Matt... . go to meetings by yourself if he chooses not to participate, then get a report at the end of the period to submit to court.

[david]

The court order says the both of you have to pick a pc, you both did, and go for 6 months, you are and he has to make a choice whether to follow the order and the agreement between the two of you. If he doesn't he needs a reasonable reason why. The fact that you are paying 100% can be contested as bias but he wants to spend $7,000 that you do not have. Let him say he thinks there is bias. Don't you mention it at all. If he wants to spend the $7,000 get it in writing with a specific time frame. Otherwise follow the court order as you already are.

Alternative, continue going for 6 months to the already agreed upon pc. After that he can cough up the $7,000 for another pc after this one is over. This would give you a pc for a longer duration and also give him what he says he wants. A win/win for everyone.

I have found that making a boundary and sticking to it, as long as it makes sense for the kids, works best in the long run. There may be some flak in the beginning but that is short lived.

[momtara]

Ok, thanks everyone - great advice.

My L seems fine with either direction, but she asked what happens if he dumps the next one.  If he did that, I would not agree.

I guess I have to think about it this weekend and decide.

[livednlearned]

Problem is, she wasn't appointed by the court.  We just had in our settlement agreement that we pick A pc together and go to one for at least 6 months.  IF the court picked her, then yeah, it'd be an easy answer for me.  Already, I am paying 100 percent for her so it may look like she's biased. 

The thought I had this morning is that if I do go back to court to get one appointed, then I am in the court system again and he and his lawyer can ask for other stuff.  I know I shouldn't let myself be governed by fear, though. 

I kind of compromised with my settlement in the end and made the part about a PC a little toothless.  And frankly, I was worried we'd get a bad one - that's why I put in that we get one for just 6 months.  Now that I know they (at least this one) see the obvious, I am not as worried - but there are still bad ones out there, I imagine, and clueless ones who'd be swayed by my exH.

There are two things that give you traction in court. One is when a disordered spouse does something to negatively impact the kids. The other is when a disordered spouse is unreasonable, or does not comply with the order. That's why there is such a thing as "contempt of court." A lot of judges get even more irritated when the parties consented to something because it's even more unreasonable to not comply with what you consented to!

Your order says pick a PC and stick with that PC for 6 months. That is not a toothless statement unless you make it toothless. If it's in the order, and he doesn't comply, then it's contempt of court. Period.

This is what's causing you problems:

My ultimate goal would not be sole decision making because I have most of that power already.

You think you have power right now, but your kids are young -- you haven't encountered legal decision-making yet. The day-to-day decisions you're making right now are entirely different than legal decisions. Your kids are young and you haven't had to do anything that requires his permission. When your ex put the baby on the floor and said he dropped her, he's just warming up. He knows that if something is important to you (ie. the kids), and he blocks a decision you make, he gets a reaction. If your kids need therapy, or you want to change schools, or get a psycho-educational test for a learning disability, or one of them gets sick and you and your ex disagree about treatment, you have no power. There is a hornet's nest of laws coming up as soon as your kids hit school. If you aren't clear about why you need sole decision making, then you're headed for 15+ years of paying for PCs or years of high-conflict decision-making.

[ForeverDad]

My L seems fine with either direction, but she asked what happens if he dumps the next one.

Precisely my concern.  I don't think you should risk losing this PC before the term/appointment expires.

Your order says pick a PC and stick with that PC for 6 months. That is not a toothless statement unless you make it toothless. If it's in the order, and he doesn't comply, then it's contempt of court. Period.

This is what's causing you problems:

My ultimate goal would not be sole decision making because I have most of that power already.

So being so compliant.  Like with drugs, Just Say No!

Also, if you do drop the PC at his instigation and later in court you complain about continuing problems, how would you respond if the judge asks, "Then why did you let him scuttle the first PC with nary a whimper?"

You think you have power right now, but your kids are young -- you haven't encountered legal decision-making yet. The day-to-day decisions you're making right now are entirely different than legal decisions. Your kids are young and you haven't had to do anything that requires his permission. When your ex put the baby on the floor and said he dropped her, he's just warming up. He knows that if something is important to you (ie. the kids), and he blocks a decision you make, he gets a reaction. If your kids need therapy, or you want to change schools, or get a psycho-educational test for a learning disability, or one of them gets sick and you and your ex disagree about treatment, you have no power. There is a hornet's nest of laws coming up as soon as your kids hit school. If you aren't clear about why you need sole decision making, then you're headed for 15+ years of paying for PCs or years of high-conflict decision-making.

An appropriately blunt prediction of a future you could but shouldn't enable.  If you are ever gifted the opportunity for decision-making or tie-breaker, then take it and keep it, it will save you immense grief and financial expense in the years to come!

Reminds me of my Trial Day, after nearly two years obstructing and delaying our divorce case, I was greeted with the new that morning that finally ex was ready to 'settle'.  I was willing to be reasonable on nearly everything - we nons are reasonable to a fault - EXCEPT Residential Parent.  She literally begged me with tears to continue as RP.  I said, "No, either I will be RP or we start the divorce trial."  Even my lawyer pooh-poohed it and joined her lawyer insisting RP didn't anything.  But that seemingly little thing was my #1 settlement term, the settlement hinged on that.  And I got it.   And the month after the final decree my lawyer was proven wrong when ex got our son kicked out of kindergarten just 5 weeks before the end of the school year. I was notified they had rejected my open enrollment application to let him finish the year there and I was given ONE DAY to get him registered in my school district.   Frankly, if she remained as RP then they would have been stuck with her and her recurring antics.  But I had become RP and they dumped her because they could.  I have been in charge of school matters ever since, to my son's benefit.

In other words, it's just fine if you declare the PC issue to be Non-Negotiable.

[Matt]

Yeah - I'm with everybody else - the order says 6 months, and you believe the PC is OK, so stick with her - don't even hint to your ex that you might give in.  If you do, you will reinforce his behavior, and he'll never comply with the court orders.

To be frank, I think it might be a good idea to get some counseling - as I did, and many others here - to help you discover more about your own thought processes and how they are contributing to the problems.  I'm not suggesting that you have a "problem" like a psych disorder, or that you are equally at fault for these struggles.  But most of us find out that we have fallen into some bad thought processes that keep us mired in the bad relationship, even after divorce.

If you do that, and work on whatever co-dependency or other issues you might have, I think in a year or two you'll look back and this, and go ":)uh." - struggling with a decision that should be pretty simple - there's a court order, and the PC is doing a good job, so you work with her, at least for 6 months, and longer if you decide that is best for the kids.

By the way - and please don't take this the wrong way - I'm sure if somebody looked back at my posts when I was where you are, they would see the same thing - if you look through this thread, at your own posts, I think you'll see that you mention your ex many times, but hardly ever refer to the kids, or discuss what is best for them.  I'm not doubting that you want what's best for them.  But when we are in these screwed-up relationships, with screwed-up people, we can become so confused and focused on figuring out how to deal with someone who doesn't think clearly, that we lose track of what should be our primary focus - the kids.  Anybody that knows me would be rolling their eyes right now, at what a hypocrite I am, because this was a huge problem for me, and many others here too I think.  So I'm not pointing the finger at you, I'm telling you what I think is a very, very common problem we have, after some time trying to make a relationship work, and not being able to figure out how to do it - we get in the habit of constantly trying to figure out what to do, so the other party in the relationship - even after you're divorced - will be easier to deal with.

The solution is to shift your focus onto the kids' needs, and your own too, and minimize the focus you put onto your ex and his behavior.  Get as much distance as possible, and decide on some basic approaches that seem to work, and stick with them, and if he doesn't like it, that's his problem not yours.

I'm not saying you should put a thumb in his eye, or do things to make him mad - that's staying involved with him too.  I'm suggesting you look for every possible way to get distance from him - literally and emotionally.  And those interactions with him that are necessary or you think are in the kids' interests - like meeting with the PC - do it in a businesslike way - clearly, unemotionally, focused on results and on how the kids will be impacted.

From that perspective, this isn't a complicated question.  You agreed to the PC because you believed it would be best for the kids, so you follow through with it.  And he agreed to it to, so it's his responsibility to do what he committed to, and to comply with the court order.

Pretty simple, but it's harder if you're still focused on his behavior and trying to make things better with him.  That will never work, as I think you know better than anybody by now... .

[momtara]

Thanks.  This is a healthy discussion in a lot of ways.

Livedandlearned, you wrote, "If your kids need therapy, or you want to change schools, or get a psycho-educational test for a learning disability, or one of them gets sick and you and your ex disagree about treatment, you have no power."

Is that really true that I have no power?  I have residential custody, and generally that means tie breaker status in my state.  Let's say one of them does need therapy, and we disagree.  Would I have to go to court to ask for it, do you think?  A judge might grant it if the experts were all for it, right?

Our parenting agreement says we have to 'consult' on educational decisions, not agree. 

But yes, I think it will be a different ballgame when the kids are older and can tell him what's happening and can try to resist my decisions.  I suppose things will get more complicated then.

I have been firm about some things - like not changing visitation.  I have the kids most of the time.  He may try to change that someday, but not now.

[livednlearned]

Thanks.  This is a healthy discussion in a lot of ways.

Livedandlearned, you wrote, "If your kids need therapy, or you want to change schools, or get a psycho-educational test for a learning disability, or one of them gets sick and you and your ex disagree about treatment, you have no power."

Is that really true that I have no power?  I have residential custody, and generally that means tie breaker status in my state.  Let's say one of them does need therapy, and we disagree.  Would I have to go to court to ask for it, do you think?  A judge might grant it if the experts were all for it, right?

In my state, tie-breaker status (called decision-making in my state) is not the same as sole legal. When you say,

"I have residential custody, and generally that means tie breaker status in my state

, what does "generally" apply to? I guess I don't understand why you wanted a PC if you had decision-making... . ? Unless it was to have someone who could eventually testify on your behalf?

My understanding of tie-breaker is that your ex could go to court to have your decision overruled. So a scenario could be that one of your Ds needs therapy, your ex says no, you take her anyway, ex takes you to court to overrule. You spend $3K to dismiss it. Having sole legal would mean he could not have the judge overrule you.

[momtara]

I wanted a PC to help us communicate on kid issues better, to have someone who (yes) could testify if needed, and to kind of monitor the situation in general.  I feel like I shouldn't be dealing with a mentally ill co parent on my own, although obviously at times I have to.   I feel like already I feel more empowered.  And she talked to his therapist to clue him on on what's going on.  Otherwise, he wouldn't know.

I wonder if a judge would really agree with a parent who tried to deny their child counseling?  I could see, though, my H going to the school or doctor and telling them not to do something.  The school or doc might listen to him.  So that's an issue.  If that started happening, I guess I could then ask for sole decision making or go to court or ask for a new pc. 

[Matt]

Does your ex have an attorney?

Sometimes you (or your attorney) can get the other party's attorney to talk sense to him.

I think having a professional like a PC involved is a good idea, and not something you should give up on.

Do you communicate with your ex by e-mail, or phone, or face-to-face?  I found it much better to use e-mail almost all the time, because it leaves a record, so my ex knows if she acts out it won't be a secret - I will share it with whoever I decide should know about it, like our parenting coach, or even the court if it comes to that.  When I shifted from phone to e-mail, and then copied some of the e-mails to neutral third parties, her behavior improved - she may not be any healthier but she at least fakes it most of the time now.

[ForeverDad]

... . If that started happening, I guess I could then ask for sole decision making or go to court or ask for a new pc.

You already have a new PC, what improvement is it to get a new PC?  It is a given conclusion that if the next PC is a good one too then your ex won't like him/her either and will just quit participating just as he has threatened to do now.  Sounds like more money spent, fewer good PCs left available and no real progress.  Accommodating him or his refusals is not a good strategy.  You'll run out of PCs before he runs out of obstructions.

Time to review and update your strategy?

[livednlearned]

I wanted a PC to help us communicate on kid issues better, to have someone who (yes) could testify if needed, and to kind of monitor the situation in general.  I feel like I shouldn't be dealing with a mentally ill co parent on my own, although obviously at times I have to.   I feel like already I feel more empowered.  And she talked to his therapist to clue him on on what's going on.  Otherwise, he wouldn't know.

I wonder if a judge would really agree with a parent who tried to deny their child counseling?  I could see, though, my H going to the school or doctor and telling them not to do something.  The school or doc might listen to him.  So that's an issue.  If that started happening, I guess I could then ask for sole decision making or go to court or ask for a new pc.  

You aren't using a PC for any specific legal goals. Is that right? You seem to be ok with what you have going right now. Residential parent, tie-breaker status, 88% visitation, plus a PC to basically keep an eye on things.

Then the issue about changing PCs is very clearly about your boundaries. You have decision-making, you're the residential parent. That is not ambiguous at all. Your order says agree on a PC for 6 months. Not ambiguous. He wants a different PC. The answer is no. Not ambiguous. Save your money for court when you need it for something real. Continue to go to your PC, continue insisting that your ex attend and participate. You then have documentation that you stuck to the order and he didn't. Every time your ex obstructs something, report it to the PC, build more documentation.

I think you need to figure out emotionally and psychologically what is going on for you with this decision. Like Matt said, a lot of us here have similar tendencies, and those tendencies fuzz up our thinking and make things so much harder than they need to be. Especially early on. Without counseling, you linger in this grey zone a lot longer, trying to figure out a strategy from a fuzzy stuck place, instead of a clear place of strength. Put some of the $7K toward healing whatever this is. You're worth it! And it will make you a better parent to your girls.

[momtara]

Thanks.

Someone mentioned a parenting coach.  I tried to find one of those, but didn't, so I ended up with a PC.  A counselor would have been ok too, but exH rejected it.

My concern with just saying no to exH is that he just won't participate, and then we don't have anyone really helping, whereas he said if we switched, he'd continue to go to monthly sessions.  So I have to weigh if it's best for the kids for me to take a stand, or just try to switch one time.  I am giving myself the weekend to decide.  I know he will go if we switch - he does usually stick to his word. 

I know I have to separate my fears from what is right to do, and I will.

[momtara]

I've been writing drafts of an email to exH to tell him I want to stick to the PC.  However, I am having this thought - if he doesn't go back, that's kinda it for now.  Then we kinda don't have anyone.  If I tell him I'll agree to switch if he picks this other one, then at least we get a new one for six months.  And that person may be even better.

I keep going back and forth on this.  I just have to set a deadline and decide.  It isn't easy.  I know it seems like it should be a no brainer, but there are nuances to every situation, and consequences.

Also, contrary to what someone said, my xH actually does try to play fair if I beg and beg him for something.  So I guess a little part of me wants to do the same for him, so that he plays fair later.    But this issue may not be a good one to compromise on.  I don' tknow.

This other PC I have in mind is affordable and pretty good too.  But yeah, it will cost me money to switch and start over.  (Not as much as going to court.)

I really hate dealing with PC's because that means I have to deal with my dysregulated exH even more for appointments and stuff.  I am doing it ultimately for the insight and for the kids.  Wish I knew the best thing.

[Grey Kitty]

My concern with just saying no to exH is that he just won't participate, and then we don't have anyone really helping, whereas he said if we switched, he'd continue to go to monthly sessions.

If he refuses to go to monthly sessions, that shows how he is behaving as a parent... . for the courts, if you have to go back.

I gotta say... . changing PC's because this one is reasonable and agrees with you most of the time and your ex doesn't like it is a bad idea. If you change, I see three possible outcomes

1. New PC is good, sees what your ex is up to, and mostly agrees with you. (Likely he will want to bail/change again)

2. New PC isn't so good, and gives you grief by siding with your ex.

3. A good bit of delay while New PC comes up to speed and then outcome #1 or #2.

I fail to see how this could benefit your kids at all... . and at best it will just cost you money. For some reason I'm discounting the possibility that he will behave reasonably and better with a new PC. Do you have a reason to believe he will do something different?

[momtara]

I don't think he will dump the new one, although he may well want to.  He will have to keep going or it looks doubly bad for him.  He said he'd go to 4 sessions with a new one, and I think he will, judging from past experience with him keeping his word.  He doesn't realize that you don't really have to go to monthly sessions with a PC; she's not a therapist.  So I may get more out of him, get him to work wit h me better, out of a new one.  This one we have is aggressive and doesn't mince words, so he'll be relieved with anyone else, I think.   The other one I have in mind seems pretty good too.  So that's a chance I may not want to give up, but maybe I will. 

[ForeverDad]

Reality check, but a kind one, really.

He doesn't like the PC?  Tough, it's only for a few more months.  He's not a kid to be coddled and you choosing an alternate just so he *might* attend isn't a good strategy.  Is HE willing to foot the entire bill for swapping PCs?  Yeah, I thought not.  Let him b!tch about it for a few more months.  Life won't end if you stick with this PC.

Many here have been "around the block" often enough to see some red flags from him and from you.  You're looking for a 'fix' where there is NO assured fix.  You've already stated you don't even have the money for switching.  Just hang in there a few more months.  Meanwhile, have you made any progress with getting yourself a good counselor - for yourself?  Why do I suggest that?  Because, though you've come to trust us as good peer support, not one member has posted here saying "yeah, great idea, do that!"  Ponder that.  We're on the outside looking in.  On the one hand, we don't know every aspect of your situation.  On the other hand, we're not emotionally involved, can be more objective and see you're grasping at straws, expensive ones.

If you had a friend who had your situation, think, what would you tell that friend?  Hmm?

For example, you're about 2 months into the 6 month monthly visits?  What is so very urgent to be handled in the next 3-4 months that you have to abandon the court ordered 6 month term, choose another PC and put yourself into several thousands of debt than you can't afford?  Let the outcome develop on its own.  Don't jump in the puddle and muddy it all up.  Just sit back and watch how it all plays out.  Please.  Remember too, you may need those other two PCs in the 15+ years to come, don't burn through them in the first year.  Meanwhile work on yourself and the children.

[momtara]

I agree that we may need more PC's some day.

I am just trying to perhaps have one without going to court.  But you're right, there's really nothing that could happen in the next 6 months.  It's summer, nothing's going on.

That said, a new pc could be someone who would recommend things like, hey, you guys should go to therapy with the kids, or extend my services for 2 years, or something else.  It'd be another person who knows the situation.  Even if he were to stop after 6 months, she would be another person to ask advice from about future situations.  The one we have now really alienated him.  A new one may not agree with him but might have a diffeernt style.  I know that sounds naive but I know the nuances of my exH too.

I don't have the money but it'd be a thousand or two, not as much as going to court.

I *am* listening to what you all are telling me!  I am just trying to make sure I am making the right decision for everyone.  That's why I'm looking at all the options here.

I do have a therapist I have seen before, and can go back to him.  Although maybe I should get one who is skilled in kid stuff and divorce and maybe that could be a person to help the situation too.  Although it takes a while to find a good one.

I'm just using this time to think this all through.  Maybe I can go to my therapist and talk about it too.