do they ever feel our pain?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

I look outside and  the snow is falling and it is cold. On a weekend day like this my unexBPDgf and I would settle in with her kids and pop some popcorn and cuddle on the couch and watch Christmas movies.

I wonder, has she thought of that once today?  Or is she simply doing these things without me and could careless?  I also wonder what her last two days have been like since I caught her cheating on me and I walked away. She called in sick into work both days and has gone NC with me. I have not tried to contact her at all. I wonder what those days were like for her. Did she realize what she did?  Did she realize she hurt me?  Did she realize she hurt her kids and the life they wanted?  I wonder... .

[willtimeheal]

I look outside and  the snow is falling and it is cold. On a weekend day like this my unexBPDgf and I would settle in with her kids and pop some popcorn and cuddle on the couch and watch Christmas movies.

I wonder, has she thought of that once today?  Or is she simply doing these things without me and could careless?  I also wonder what her last two days have been like since I caught her cheating on me and I walked away. She called in sick into work both days and has gone NC with me. I have not tried to contact her at all. I wonder what those days were like for her. Did she realize what she did?  Did she realize she hurt me?  Did she realize she hurt her kids and the life they wanted?  I wonder... .

[santa]

Not an expert, but I think they're pretty good at blocking out any guilt or bad feelings.

[delusionalxox]

My uBPD ex appears to have moments of guilt and shame but they are very quickly followed by rage or denial.

His most common tactic was to turn any self blame or shame onto me, and thus blame or shame me.

For instance he blamed me instantly and furiously once I found out he had concealed an affair. He then continued justifying himself and attacking me but once I completely withdrew and refused to argue any more he turned to threats ('I am going to move on and see someone else now' but then once I myself moved on there were a few self-accusatory texts and endless apologies. But these were geared more to getting me back. His worst pain seems to  come from not getting what he wants.

However I believe he does feel intense guilt and shame about what he has done, he just absolutely cannot tolerate those feelings and thus they are projected and split immediately.

[willtimeheal]

I know i will never understand why she did what she did and I will never understand her disorder but it doesn't stop me from wondering.

Why did she work so hard to get me back if she was just going to hurt me?  How can you say you love someone and then hook up with someone else?  Maybe she told him she loves him?  I do know that he knows nothing about our relationship. Her family told her to keep it a.secret from him... .maybe it would scare him off if he knew she was in a same sex.relationship.

I want her to hurt as much as I do. I want her to see how she hurt her children as well. I want her to feel a third of the pain I feel... .because she could not handle it. Why would someone spend all that time and energy building a.relationship again just to throw it all.away?  It is so messed up.

[necchi]

Willtimeheel, i feel your pain, I've been thru it and iam in it again, i can't understand how they would do this and find it hard to understand how we put ourselves back into what we already knew would happen. They tend to believe in karma, well why don't we, lets hope for the best of us. To meet someone were all this drama won't matter anymore, someone who will accept us without having to hurt and die insinde.

[Iamdizzy]

Willtimeheal-


I can imagine that they do think about us. I think late night when they are alone with themselves and not their partners or whatever other source of attention supply they have, they think about the hurt they have caused others. Like anyone on here can state, they realize their mistakes but they are so fragile mentally that they cannot tolerate such thoughts because they can't tolerate their own thoughts so they mitigate their behavior. In my case, she told me and I actually read similar lines before which is creepy "I have my issues, You stayed whatever pain I have caused you, it's not my fault".

However, they do and it scares them so they keep themselves occupied that's why many turn to facebook or whatever to show a life of 'happiness' and also why so many find replacements rather quickly.

I wish you positive vibes and lots of strength to get through this  

[myself]

It's understandable that you would want to know that she feels how much pain this has caused you. It doesn't lead to balance, though. How much of your pain came from her projecting her pain onto you? How would it make it better if you gave yours to her? See how that's a vicious circle? I know, as I step in and out of it from time to time myself. It's a way for us to express our pain but also avoid it. A pwBPD goes well out of their way to not face the kind of feelings you are talking of. Those of us who can, will heal.

[Calm Waters]

If they do they don't show it the way we would, they turn it against us and make it our fault, I expect in their minds they always have a justification for what they do and if challenged go no contact abuse retaliate paint us black and make it our fault. God it hurts when you have trusted someone with your heart, I know

[necchi]

... .and accusing you for things they have done! ... .literally

[willtimeheal]

Thank you all for taking the time to respond.

I am angry at her and I am angry at myself. As much as she has hurt me if she called right now and said let's work it out... .I don't know if I could stay away. That bothers me the most and it will be the area I concentrate on in therapy next week.

... .and accusing you for things they have done! ... .literally

This rings so true. She told me about a dream she had the day I caught her cheating on me. In that dream she told me I was cheating on her.  She said she was so hurt and angry. That she woke up crying and upset. Maybe that is how they feel their pain in some sick twisted way. 

[toomanytears]

... .and accusing you for things they have done! ... .literally

Yup. Been there too

[necchi]

I left my exuBPDgf after many,many recycle and she uses what she did against me, not acknowledging anything she did And in the mean time ,using those derisions to hurth me. They are truly sick people i hate myself for loving such an empty relation

[Ironmanrises]

Honestly, I no longer know. Once the pwBPD projects all their inner hurt/turmoil onto us, and we absorb it all, literally, they no longer have to in a sense. For me, after my exUBPDgf left me yet again for the second time(after returning to me and begging me to let her back in), I feel I have become her sin-eater. After she projected all of her inner  shame/turmoil/hurt onto me, the person most intimate with her, I swallowed all of her vile garbage. Doing that, swallowing her vile excrement, freed her in a sense from feeling hurt. I took it all in. She did this to me twice. It was basically like here, take all of my hurt/shame/garbage and you deal with it while I trundle off and tell all my sycophantic enablers that I am personally improving. So here I am, still trying to process all of that; feeling tarnished and tainted. And her? Where is she in all of this? Oh that's right, portraying her false image so that people don't think she has any issues, because you know, she deposited all of that down my throat, so to speak.

[myself]

Ironman, if you took it in you can also take it out... .

Just because you wore one suit once, twice... .

Doesn't mean you can not wear another now... .

Or again... .

She projected. Do you have to accept?

You can always change your mind... .

You've also changed your posting style, I like it. The change. It shows that you are getting it together. Coming back. Either way, your sense of what is has been front and center, and I thank you for that, it makes what you're saying very clear.

I want to offer a view that when you take on her pain, it only multiplies your own. Your own truths are most important now, not whatever it was she spewed back then. We all need to see who we actually are, get better, and keep going. Which you are doing!

[eternalbloom]

I think the only pain or shame they feel is when they are alone or not getting what they want. If they are lucky enough to catch someone else in their web and their need for attachment supercedes guilt or remorse. I could list all the horrible things my partner did and he wont justify a thing the relationship failures and cheating episodes were all my fault in his eyes. I have never met anyone so arrogant and cruel. Next time I see that in a man I'm bolting for the door.

[DragoN]

Quote from: marinro7 on Today at 04:20:29 PM

... .and accusing you for things they have done! ... .literally[/quote]

Yup. Been there too

Me three.

I think the only pain or shame they feel is when they are alone or not getting what they want. If they are lucky enough to catch someone else in their web and their need for attachment supercedes guilt or remorse. I could list all the horrible things my partner did and he wont justify a thing the relationship failures and cheating episodes were all my fault in his eyes. I have never met anyone so arrogant and cruel. Next time I see that in a man I'm bolting for the door.

This too.

They don't feel our pain, they feel pretty much only their own, and then watch out how they "pay you back."  It will make no sense, but she or he may even admit it later. My exBNPDh did the same thing, completely unrelated to what I may have done wrong. Which was not something that a normal person would consider a deliberate attempt at causing another pain.

myself

Your own truths are most important now, not whatever it was she spewed back then.

Whatever it was that they were abusing us with, was their own self hatred and short comings. Each finger pointed at me, there were three pointing back, only had to follow the line forward and back to know the source or cause of the current accusation.

Sorry anybody ever has had to experience this crap. We can heal, they will continue as they are.

[willtimeheal]

I was the outlet for all her pain and suffering. All her self hatred was taken out on me. All the abuse she suffered as a child was taken out on me. Anyone she was angry with... .her father brother mother... .That anger was taken out on me. Why?  Maybe she felt safe with me if that makes any sense. She knew she could rage at me and I would still love her unconditionally. I was the punching bag and she beat the ___ out of me emotionally and verbally.

She doesn't feel pain. She told me once that I have put up with more than I ever should and she never would hurt me again... .I wonder if she was sleeping with him when she was telling me this. 

[necchi]

For 2 years she stalk me an went along being her friend, she failed has a friend and i kept going back to her needs, she made everything in my life hurtful,even got pregnant to keep me around (this is what it is and i will never lie to you guys) kept asking why i didn't love her, why she couldn't have me, why i couldn't hold her and say I'm your's. When i did , (and god knows why) she just played with me and kept on playing ?

[necchi]

I wish i wouldn't Bragg about my life, i whish i wouldn't have to find validation upon you people but it is here i can find some closure for the life I'm living. I'm a highly educated person who had boundaries and respect for myself and my children's ,I'm physically gorgeous,respectful to other, no matter how much i try to remind myself of this , i just break up in tears and just cant relate myself to the same man i was...

[HostNoMore]

Hard to say.  There may be few brief moments that are quickly overwhelmed by some maladaptive coping mechanisms.  Plus, empathy is not exactly a BPD strength.

Mine recently sent me text after nearly two years.  It was all about her, and her needs.  Never has it felt so good to delete a message and not respond.  I have retaken my power and care nothing about her.  Thanks to the education I received on this board there was a zero chance of her re-engaging me.

Seriously, they are almost always about themselves and their needs.  Not exactly the material for a healthy relationship.

[damage control]

Mine dumped me on a Monday morning after we had a lovely, warm weekend.

He went on a first date with my replacement that night - a woman he had met online just days before.

The next day he told me I would have to get out of the house (we are in a share) because I obviously didn't know how to be civilised (I got drunk the night he went out and although I was a bit noisy ... I didn't yell or scream or otherwise create). He also said that he had 'no idea who I was' and for all he knew, I could have been lying to him about everything for the last 12 months.

On Wednesday I asked him if we could talk ... .he told me that as soon as he had finished his conversation with some random woman online, we could.

He never came.

On Thursday, after realising that I was not going to yell, scream, accuse or create drama, he became friendly again.

On Friday ... he reached out and I spent the night in his bed ... .no sex ... but he slept naked and held me.

On Saturday morning, he confessed all sorts of childhood traumas, together with an explanation that his panic/anxiety attacks 'burn away' his attachment/emotions. He said he was very sorry for what he had done to me ... .he threw himself around me (we were in bed talking) and repeatedly said that he was scared of dying ... felt that he had to 'do everything' because every day he thought he was going to die (I guess 'do everything' really means ' do everyone' ... .and he apologised while clinging to me.

We spent that morning together, talking and at lunchtime he told me that he was meeting the woman he had been out with the other night but that they were just friends - she is a psychologist and they discussed 'psych issues' ... .he said he would be gone for a few hours and then back.

He didn't return until late the following evening ... he came into my room and woke me up to 'see if I was ok' ... when I said that obviously things had gone well between him and her, he proceeded to tell me how it was 'very nice' and that conversation flowed freely from topic to topic ... he would have continued had I stopped him and told him that I did not care ... and walked away.

Did he even for one second feel my pain?

He had moments of remorse for causing it I think - but not only did he never truly understand it, my anguish and bewilderment were nowhere near enough for him to behave respectfully toward me ... .he wanted to cement the deal with my replacement ... his need/s took precedence above my pain because he didn't understand or didn't want to know the grief that he caused.

Is he sorry? Not in the sense that you or I are sorry.

Will he do it again to someone else? I think he already is.

[necchi]

Damage, i can give my part of closure... .It deeply saddened me reading your post  so yes ,there are people for us that truly care. I hope you find someone that understand also. Me , my closest friend is a girl who was in love with me,and doesn't understand why i just don't get by all this bull s£%t. Tell me to go on with my life bla bla bla... .

[love4meNOTu]

I think the only pain or shame they feel is when they are alone or not getting what they want. If they are lucky enough to catch someone else in their web and their need for attachment supercedes guilt or remorse. I could list all the horrible things my partner did and he wont justify a thing the relationship failures and cheating episodes were all my fault in his eyes. I have never met anyone so arrogant and cruel. Next time I see that in a man I'm bolting for the door.

My feelings exactly. I know my xhwBPD has absolutely no remorse for anything he has done to hurt the women in his life. I never heard him express once that he felt badly at all for any of them, when they so clearly loved him. I remember when he came home one day and told me that an x of his had passed away. I told him how sorry I was, and he just shrugged his shoulders.

He really didn't care. And that woman had children who loved her.

I was already married to him at this point, if I hadn't been, I would have left him then.

L

[Aw511]

However I believe he does feel intense guilt and shame about what he has done, he just absolutely cannot tolerate those feelings and thus they are projected and split immediately.

YES.

My ex seemed to feel extreme guilt. He would actually blame me for "making him feel guilty" about things he had done that I literally had never even brought up and get mad at me about it. It's so crazy it doesn't even make sense when I type it out.

He also hated when I felt bad because it made him feel guilty even when it wasn't his fault that I was upset and would yell at me about that, so I stopped expressing my emotions so as not to upset him.

The guilt was unbearable for him and he would use faulty coping mechanisms to rid himself of it. It seemed fleeting. Things he actually did wrong that he felt guilty about eventually would be twisted in his reality to something else to make it okay.

[Turkish]

I look outside and  the snow is falling and it is cold. On a weekend day like this my unexBPDgf and I would settle in with her kids and pop some popcorn and cuddle on the couch and watch Christmas movies.

I wonder, has she thought of that once today?  Or is she simply doing these things without me and could careless?  I also wonder what her last two days have been like since I caught her cheating on me and I walked away. She called in sick into work both days and has gone NC with me. I have not tried to contact her at all. I wonder what those days were like for her. Did she realize what she did?  :)id she realize she hurt me?  :)id she realize she hurt her kids and the life they wanted?  I wonder... .

Mine said she caught her boy toy still texting some girl he was friends with benefits with. She told me at that point (2 mos ago when I thought I could save us), "I felt like Turkish must have felt." NO, not even fraking close! We have two kids, too. Soo wrapped up in themselves... .no empathy.

[redkong]

In my experience, my BPDexgf never had a clue about my pain.  She would occasionally start to say she was sorry for hurting me "in any way" (vague), but she would quickly shift her focus back to herself and her own feelings and how everything was my fault.  I think pwBPD are overwhelmed by their own feelings and it takes all of their emotional energy to cast those off via projection, blaming, splitting, etc.

Short answer?  I would say no, they never feel our pain.  Even when it might seem that way, it's still really their pain they are feeling.

[Moonie75]

There's a theory (supported by recycle behaviour), that they grieve in reverse!

And do indeed very much 'feel' the pain of a break up.

My understanding of grieving in reverse is... .Where you, myself & other non disordered thinkers & feelers grieve a loss straight away, they don't. They cover/suppress those feelings with distractions (usually but not always a replacement lover).

The distraction is novel, new, shiny etc. It works incredibly well, until it doesn't!

Then the lovesick feelings of loss, grief etc that we've faced months earlier surface in the BPD.

These feelings are as real to them in that moment as they were to us when we faced it. They are sincere. They are woefully sorry. They are ashamed. They are genuinely lovesick. It seems so real because it is real! It is really how they're feeling! IN THE MOMENT!

Recycle time?

Novelty wears off, go shopping for replacement again, exit again... .Round & round they and we go. Until we get off!



Theory works for me anyway.

[Ironmanrises]

Moonie is correct, at least from my standpoint about the reverse grieving. I too experienced that from my exUBPDgf after she left me first time and confirmed it when she returned to me for round 2, via what she told me and what i saw posted on her social media(re idealization of me was evident up until she contacted me). Now that round 2 produced a closeness that far exceeded that of round 1, and the fact that NC has gone on longer then what i originally predicted probably shows that this reverse grieving will play out on a longer scale in concordance to the closeness shared.

[Moonie75]

BANG ON!

Good to read you again Ironman!

[maxen]

However I believe he does feel intense guilt and shame about what he has done, he just absolutely cannot tolerate those feelings and thus they are projected and split immediately.

YES.

My ex seemed to feel extreme guilt. He would actually blame me for "making him feel guilty" about things he had done that I literally had never even brought up and get mad at me about it. It's so crazy it doesn't even make sense when I type it out.

He also hated when I felt bad because it made him feel guilty even when it wasn't his fault that I was upset and would yell at me about that, so I stopped expressing my emotions so as not to upset him.

The guilt was unbearable for him and he would use faulty coping mechanisms to rid himself of it. It seemed fleeting. Things he actually did wrong that he felt guilty about eventually would be twisted in his reality to something else to make it okay.

'she' for 'he', my experience to the letter.

[necchi]

There's a theory (supported by recycle behaviour), that they grieve in reverse!

And do indeed very much 'feel' the pain of a break up.

My understanding of grieving in reverse is... .Where you, myself & other non disordered thinkers & feelers grieve a loss straight away, they don't. They cover/suppress those feelings with distractions (usually but not always a replacement lover).

The distraction is novel, new, shiny etc. It works incredibly well, until it doesn't!

Then the lovesick feelings of loss, grief etc that we've faced months earlier surface in the BPD.

These feelings are as real to them in that moment as they were to us when we faced it. They are sincere. They are woefully sorry. They are ashamed. They are genuinely lovesick. It seems so real because it is real! It is really how they're feeling! IN THE MOMENT!

Recycle time?

Novelty wears off, go shopping for replacement again, exit again... .Round & round they and we go. Until we get off!



Theory works for me anyway.

Yah!... .Well isn't this sad poor little things. Well not for me there's just no way of changing the past or of any use at a point to understand his/her standing point. In the end, and with children involve they remain for ever who they are whatever if she realized  it. The only important thing for me is accepting that from all it seems and all it is, she can't feel my pain because her emotional and logical interactions are just plain wronged! It did hurt to remind myself constantly of this, but if I would of kept feeling sorry for myself because she doesn't see nor feel , I would still be stuck in pain. Seeing things the way they are, not constantly trying to find odd, hidden explanations for the behavior they will always have is a huge step forward.

Yes they hurt us, did we try to get answers---yesss, did she willingly repeated the process? ----yes----- any different outcomes?------no--so accept it

Now if we look at own little pittifull self, did we willingly hurt ourself from denying our own beliefs and hoping in an all new end to the sick life story they offer---I did---

Now I can't dwell on hopes an understanding anymore but one's got to go through more less pain,understanding. Once you decide to accept all this, you realize how in the end unimportant what she/he felt but start to realize what YOU lured yourself in believing.