Do we get involved?

[Spindle0516]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is located here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342300.0

Bahhhh.  

I am hoping that this is the last time that I post about this particular issue, but for now, this continues to be an ongoing saga. We have been trying to give MIL a little bit of space to work out how she wants to addresses these issues with SIL. She decided to tell her that she either has to move out or that rent will increase by $200. She finally got my SIL to talk to her- prior to that, we helped her work out what she wants to say and how to say it in the best way possible. We did mock conversations, and unknowingly to her, tried to teach her some of the communication tools that we have been talking about here. I have to hand it to her, in comparison to how most of these things go with my MIL, for the most part, she did a good job!  

However, we are continuing to see how us saying that she is preventing us from living our lives fully is biting us in the butt. She is now using that phrase when she communicates with my SIL- we tried to coach her away from that, giving her alternative phrases that she had written out in front of her depending on how the conversation went. She stuck to the script almost entirely, except for saying that my SIL's indecision is affecting us and is preventing us from living our lives/having kids. My MIL was supposed to say that if she does not pay the increased rent, then she expects her to move out by March. My SIL "seems to think" that rent increasing is not a thing that ever happens and refuses to do anything unless she hears from my husband and I. She doesn't care that my MIL wants to return home to FL and that my MIL is attempting to not "kick her out." She said that she can refuse to pay more/move out and that my husband and I will never kick my MIL out. But unfortunately, my MIL left it at that.

So the next question is, do we get involved? While we never should have said it, the truth is, my MIL being here is preventing us from doing A LOT. And we now know not to say that to SIL ourselves, but it feels like maybe it is time we say something.

We drafted a quick message to send her. It is probably too long, but thought I could get some feedback on ways that we can improve it a bit.

Here it is:

Okay. So a few things.

Mom told me about the conversation she had with you. Whatever is going on with you two and the house, I (nor Spindle) am not a part of that. I know a little bit about it, but it is not my area of concern.

What I can tell you is this: when mom got out of the hospital she voiced a need for more independence and space. She didn't want to be in New York long term anymore. Her health's improved, she doesn't want to handle the winters, etc. We understood this and at the same time were asking her for more space. There were things here that were not working anymore, long before she ended up in the hospital.

Mom said her intention was to float back and forth between Florida and NY, while devoting more time in FL. We told her if this was her plan then we would look into downsizing to something more affordable. What we told her was she needed to figure out how that was going to work. We renew our lease in April. The rent has gone up every time we renew since we've been here. I don't know what to tell you if you don't believe this. It's the truth. Doesn't always happen, but it's a totally legal thing and unfortunately it's happened to us with every lease renewal.

We told mom she needed to come to a conclusion about her living situation before it was time for us to renew our lease because we needed to start devising a plan/looking into our finances in regard to moving. She told us she wanted to talk to you about the house when she went to Florida. Again, what transpired with that is between you and her.

What it boils down to is mom wants to devote more time to Florida and turn New York into a place to visit. If that happens, we might downsize into a more affordable space. That's the extent of our involvement. What involves the house is far beyond me.

[Spindle0516]

We are also thinking about my husband calling and saying essentially something of the same nature-

It feels like it could be somewhat inflammatory, so we are thinking about it some more, but that is the initial things that we kind of want to cover.

[GaGrl]

Does your MIL and SI L have a signed lease agreement.

Your MIL may need to get a lawyer in Florida to help her with eviction. It doesn't sound like anything is being accepted by SIL.

[Spindle0516]

Does your MIL and SI L have a signed lease agreement

Unfortunately, not really. She had her sign something she drafted herself saying that she wanted her to fix things up or move out, but it wasn't super formal and I don't know if if holds any weight. My MIL keeps talking about evicting her, but I honestly don't think she will follow through with it. My MIL will bare too many consequences ranging from a withholding of her grandkids to the wrath of her own mom. Besides, I don't think she could afford an attorney.

So I feel like we are left with the choice of either contacting SIL ourselves and seeing if it makes a difference, giving up on having space, or just tell MIL she has to be out by a certain date and let her figure out the house and where she will go on her own. I don't know how comfortable we are with the last option though- something about it just feels mean.

She had decided that she was going to officially take the house back, but over the last few days, my MIL has taken to messaging people about rental options. She seemed to change her mind and now wants to go that route, but is way oversharing and is more than likely turning people off from renting to her. She probably sounds like a crazy person to them.

It seems we finally got her to understand she has to go, now it is figuring how and to where that is the problem...at least for this moment. We will see tomorrow.

[Spindle0516]

Sorry to bombard this thread with so many messages. With more time to think about it, we are even more confused as to what the best course of action is.

Maybe we are looking at it all wrong, but in spite of our best efforts to stay removed from the conversation between MIL and SIL, it feels inevitable at this point.

Part of us feels like it might be better to call her. This gives us an opportunity to validate how she is feeling throughout this process and hopefully give her an opportunity to feel heard. It won't change what we have to say, maybe how we say it, not the overall message.

But, knowing her history, even if the conversation goes well, she may flip the script or even deny having the conversation depending on who she is talking to or how she feels on any given day. Which makes us wonder if it is better to send something like what we wrote above to have a record and gives her the inability to deny it.

Or maybe we should do both? My brain is on a rollercoaster. 

[pursuingJoy]

Spindle, what are you hoping to achieve with the letter to SIL?

[Spindle0516]

She seems to think that she has some control over whether or not my MIL returns to Florida. And she says she doesn't believe that my MIL is actually coming unless she hears it from us.

So I guess we want to help provide clarity. And to confirm that no matter what my SIL does, my MIL is returning there.

That is really it. Whether or not my MIL decides to take back the house or rent a new place, is really beyond our control. Just to emphasize that.

I am sorry- I know this is so confusing. We really didn't think it would be come this complicated family affair, and yet, here we are.

[Panda39]

I'm hearing the potential for some triangulation here.

More on Triangulation
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=36.0

The issue is between MIL & SIL do you really want to jump into that?  I think that will open a whole other can of worms and will involve you in even more drama.  It's really hard but in my opinion you need to set a boundary regarding her leaving your home, that you will be able to enforce, express it simply and clearly, and let her deal with the rest.  It's her house, her daughter in her house and that is their problem not yours.  Your problem is getting her to leave your home, whether that's her own apartment or going back to her house.  Put the problem-solving back on your MIL, because where she lives is her problem...she is an adult she owns her own home, and certainly can rent her own apt.

My partner had many worries about leaving his uBPDxw and her not being able to make it on her own.  His mom said "just like a cat, she will always land on her feet" and guess what she has.  It's been 10 years since he left and never in that time has she been homeless on the street.

I know what you are going through is tough you care about your MIL but sometimes we have to put ourselves first.  It isn't selfish or mean it is essential.

Panda39

[Spindle0516]

This has been my fear all along. My MIL had been told at this point that she has to move out. She has even started finding reasons to be excited.

She initially said she could follow through with kicking my SIL out if it was necessary, but has since stalled on doing this. She seems unable to follow through. My SIL does not work, has no income, or credit and her partner is emotionally abusive and possibly physically abusive, and he has been fired from most of his jobs. She had not been approved for any other housing situation, so my MIL feels bad kicking her out because she doesn't know what will happen to her granddaughter. The thing is though- bad things are already happening there. They will continue to happen as long as everyone keeps bailing my SIL out of all problems.

My MIL definitely wants us to do the dirty work for her. She keeps suggesting things  for us to say. I suggested she say them instead of us and she just says that my SIL won't listen to anyone but us.

This whole living situation is really becoming a burden and I feel like I am past feeling sad or guilty about it- I just feel so angry. I am sorry I've posted so much- I feel like I am burdensome to all of you nowm

[pursuingJoy]

You're not burdensome at all, Spindle. We're here, we care and you're doing a great job of managing during a very difficult situation. I can completely empathize with your anger. I'd feel exactly the same way.  

I think you hit the nail on the head about doing their dirty work. Excellent job pushing back and recommending that she make the statements! It benefits them both to muddy the waters and slow things down. I dont think that will benefit you, though. Carry only what is yours and allow MIL and SIL to carry what is theirs. It isnt at all mean to ask MIL to move out by a certain date. A healthy mom would be very concerned about her impact on her children and want to give them space in their marriage. As Panda said, this has now become essential.

The fact that she's exploring options, making phone calls and getting excited are signs that she is capable of making decisions and taking care of her part. Do you believe that she can? I know this is tough and so tiring and maddening. Big hugs.


Don't stop sharing. We genuinely care.
pj

[Spindle0516]

Do you believe that she can? I know this is tough and so tiring and maddening. Big

Thank you everyone 
Having a place to vent has been so cathartic and I appreciate it so, so much.

I guess what is tricky is that part of me actually questions if she can do it. We've done everything for her for so long that I don't know what she is capable of accomplishing on her own.

My husband really wants to contact his sister. He hates the way his sister is treating their mom and he is struggling with not getting involved. He doesn't see any way around it. I am wondering if him texting SIL even just to say that she needs to work this out with their mom still potentially problematic? I feel like it defers responsibility in a way, but still suggests involvement, but not sure. I know my husband will not send a message if I really push it, but I want him to see that it may be the healthiest option for us, not just because I said to do it. And if we do not agree, if he feels like he has to say something, what is the best thing to say/where do we go from there?

The thing that further complicates it is that my MIL is on a fixed income. She gets SSD but beyond that has very limited resources and there are very few apartments that she can afford on her own. Her mortgage payment is low so she could actually cover that and I honestly feel like it is her best and most financially responsible option. But that is really a seperate issue, I guess?

[Mata]

And she says she doesn't believe that my MIL is actually coming unless she hears it from us.

It's possible that she won't believe it, even if you tell her.  It may take MIL actually showing up for things to be real.  Maybe MIL could rent a place to start out with and then, after she's down there, figure out how to get SIL out of the house if she can/wants to.

My brother has bipolar and I've learned over the years just to stay out of anything between him and my mom. No matter how well intentioned or thoughtful I try to be, things tend to go south.

I totally get where you and your H are at...been there a lot...feeling like doing just a 'little bit' will get mom on the right track.  It so rarely works though.  I know it feels so hard to do, but maybe try to keep sitting this out and see what happens.  You can always jump in...but jumping out later is way harder.  Sometimes (not often enough) my mom will surprise me with her resourcefulness.  I'm realizing she can do things for herself...she just does them by manipulating me!  When I've not been an option, she has figured out other ways to cope. Not always great ways...but still, she can do things.   

Good luck! And don't feel burdensome here...if this place gets to be too much for anyone, they can easily just not read, or skip a post. 

[Harri]

Hi.

How about a different approach with your SIL?  It seems very reasonable to me that your husband would tell his sister that their mom is going to have to move out by a certain date and she will be spending most of her time in Florida.   I am just thinking this is good communication between siblings about the welfare of an elderly parent.

Thoughts?

[Spindle0516]

Harri-

I really liked that approach and I mentioned it to my husband. He was talking to his sister today via text- that is how they usually communicate, even for important things. He just casually mentioned that their mom was moving back to Florida. She asked a few specific questions about the house and he said that she would have to talk their mom because he isn't involved with the house.

She replied with:

Our family is atrocious at civil conversation and we have tried, but we cannot come to an agreement at this point in time.

So he replied with:

I get that. But unfortunately there's not a lot of time anymore. Mom's leaving. We're downsizing because of that and whatever is going between you guys is going to have to get ironed out. I know that's hard and I'm sure it all feels topsy turvy and crazy, but it's not something that can be ignored or put off anymore. Otherwise the problem just gets bigger, ya know?

His mom was asking why he didn't say certain things on her behalf and he just said that it is not his conversation to have and she would have to do it. His sister did not respond, but my husband seems to feel calmer about the situation.

His mom is now saying that she is just going to move back into her house and whether or not they decide to stay is up to them. I think I have whiplash from all of her "official decisions/plans" so I take everything with a grain of salt still. She wants to just show up, but my husband did say that would create more problems and that she should at least give them a date she is coming back. This started to send her into a spiral, but she apparently came out pretty quick. I wasn't there, but it sounds like my husband handled it well.

My husband and I have concerns with her being in the house with my SIL's partner. He is an alcoholic and verbally abusive, but we have decided that is not our call to make and if that is what she wants to do, she is allowed to do that.

Regardless, we are giving her a date she has to be out by. And in the mean time, my husband and I are organizing our finances and determining if we can afford to stay in our current apartment solo! *fingers crossed we can make it work because we love where we live. 

[pursuingJoy]

Spindle I think you and your H are handling this well.  Wow. Do you feel any relief? How'd things go this weekend.

Keep us posted when you give her a deadline, that may stir up more panic for her.

[Spindle0516]

Thank you, PJ. That is really nice of you.

I honestly feel like I keep coming here and I am just talking in circles. I do not feel like we are doing really well at all. I actually feel like we are going backwards.

This morning I walked in on a conversation between my H and MIL that continued with me present. My MIL is recognizing that we want space, and all of her daily plans include her finding a new place, but I am finding myself just getting increasingly frustrated with her and my husband in regard to this whole issue. I was admiring your other post about allowing your H and MIL to feel what they want to feel without getting dragged into it- I agree with Methuen- you inspire me so much and both of you have been lovely role models for me.

I just don’t know how to let them feel and interact how they want to without it affecting me since for right now it is in our house. Yesterday, she was moving into her old house. Today, she tells us that she has been reflecting on how bad it would be for her to move there and that all these professionals agree with her- her psychiatrist, her old therapist from three years ago. And from a logical standpoint, it makes sense. Her PTSD is triggered severely as her two abusive ex-husbands are there, her abusive son-in-law is there..etc, etc. But none of this process has been logical and I feel like it is a way to just continue dragging us in circular conversations. My husband has a harder time avoiding it then I do and when I try and steer it in a different direction, I feel cold and mean and harsh. I just walked out of the conversation and am now writing this because I just felt my anxiety and temper rising and I did not feel like I could contribute in a healthy way anymore.

We have been trying to get my MIL to do things more independently for years- laundry, running to the corner store, walking the dog. We have made improvements, but it remains an ongoing conversation. The other day, unprompted, my MIL gathered all her laundry and went down to the laundromat and did her own laundry FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER after 3 ½ years. I nearly fell over.

During the conversation this morning, she even commented on how much progress she has been making since she took her laundry down alone. My husband agreed with her and commented how proud he was of her. He has continued to hold to the statement that we need space and that isn’t changing, but I feel like he is overcompensating in so many other areas- volunteering to walk the dog when she says she is about to do it, volunteering to do the dishes when she says she is about to go do it- and it confuses me. We have worked so hard at even getting her to do those things, so why are we now offering to do them when she independently says she is doing it? When I ask him about it, I think he feels judged and criticized by me, and that isn’t my intention. He even knows I post here, and he says he sees how useful it has been, but I think part of him is feeling judged by all these people he hasn’t met, but also has so much in common with. I honestly think there is part of him that is also really just frustrated with himself and how hard breaking away is for him.

Anyway, when my MIL was talking about how moving back to FL would be a bad choice, she started talking about my 2 SIL’s. My older SIL has been diagnosed with BPD -my MIL doesn’t really understand what that means, but was worried about her rapid mood swings and temper. We explained that is part of the BPD and how other things that my MIL mentioned are also common among people with BPD. My husband then said that he thinks the younger SIL, the one in the house, also has it and gave examples. It seemed to make sense to her. BUT then my husband said, “Honestly mom, sometimes I think you have it too.” The conversation remained calm- she didn’t argue or deny anything, but I nearly fell over. He proceeded to say that he has been her emotional caretaker his whole life and that he cannot do that anymore. I wasn’t expecting that at all and wasn’t really sure what to say, so I didn’t really comment.
I was with her and helped her make phone calls in regard to case management and senior housing programs. She then started to ask if we would be there to help her transition if she went to a senior housing facility. I agreed that we would help her unpack and clean and set up the new house, but there are also people there whose job it will be to help her learn her new neighborhood and community. I think I said it fine, but afterward, my husband said he thinks I was too harsh. I said that we cannot say we will do that because if she doesn’t succeed it will fall back on us. He didn’t disagree, but still thinks that I was too harsh and could have said it better- she left to take a shower, crying. So I don’t know- maybe I was harsh. I tend to be very direction in conversation and sometimes she does not know what to do with that.

I feel like more things were said, but I think I’ve typed enough and my brain hurts. I’m honestly not sure how to go forward if we aren’t always on the same page with how to approach conversations, even if we agree on the end goal. My H has done really well- I know changing these habits are really hard and I can't tell if I am expecting too much too quickly as we navigate this.

[Spindle0516]

I feel like I should add that I just spoke to my husband about all of it. He expressed concern that he always feels like he is letting me down by not handling things well/like he should. And that he is tired of crying about all this. He also said that he is really trying which makes me wonder if I am expecting too much too fast? I know these skills take time, and that change isn't overnight. I think I don't know how to tell when I am being supportive and challenging him to be better vs when I am just being mean and impatient.

[Harri]

Hi Spindle.   

I read the post you made on the 25th and sat here cheering for you and your husband.  Well done!

I feel the same way about how he is handling things now.  Could he have done a bit better?  Maybe.  His wanting to help his mom walk the dog, do laundry, etc, could be a way of him over compensating for some discomfort he may feel after the talk with his mom and sister.  I often was fine the day of or even a day or two after I changed how I interacted and then was caught up in anxiety and tried to overcompensate, mostly due to guilt.  It is a process for the both of you.  I am not saying you are being harsh though.  I don't believe that.  Nor do i think you are impatient so please do not get down on yourself.  Just take this in stride.  You guys made forward steps.  Huge forward steps!   

Mom is moving out.  Where to remains to be seen but it will be figured out.  I am not sure your MIL will be able to do all of the planning without assistance.  BPD involves skill deficits.  Think executive function.  She will probably need the continued guidance you are both giving her but that is different from making the choices for her.  You are both doing well in not getting into micromanaging of that.  Same with you regarding your husbands conversations, though I think I would have a hard time keeping my mouth shut to be honest.     Sometimes I get into conversations and I feel like saying "how can you not see this or how can you not remember what we talked about" ... and I bite my tongue and remind myself what is mine to take care of and how important it is to everyone that they make their own choices and figure things out on their own.  Frustrating as all heck isn't it? 

This is a big issue that is affecting your marriage so of course you are invested in it and have things to say.  Say them and then let it go, but stay firm in the fact that MIL will be moving out.   

One more thing I want to say (sorry, I am chatty today) is that your MIL may not be able to handle being triggered if she moves back.  I think that would be very difficult.  I moved back into the home I grew up in for about 2 years (only happened because my mother died otherwise over my dead body sort of thing) but it was hard, very hard.  And I do not have BPD on top of PTSD.  PTSD is tough I know.  I had a lot of experience in dealing with my triggers, learning to cope better, had the mindset for it to work and it was still hard.  I do believe we are all responsible for our own triggers regardless but there are limits.  I think your mIL talking about her concerns being triggered if she moves back to florida is a good thing.  She is thinking things through and looking at pros and cons (correct me if I am missing something here though).   Work with that.  Say okay, lets take that option off the table then and think of alternative plans re: location, rent, own, elderly housing etc. 

Thoughts?

PS, I don't think you are talking in circles.  Keep working things out with us and with your husband.  You are doing great!

[pursuingJoy]

Spindle you really are doing great. Maybe it's easier to see from the outside, but all three of you are changing old ways of relating. It's causing discomfort but you are holding steady, my friend, and it's awesome to watch.

I am finding myself just getting increasingly frustrated with her and my husband in regard to this whole issue.

I just don’t know how to let them feel and interact how they want to without it affecting me since for right now it is in our house.

My situation is super different. My H is enmeshed, waaaay more than yours is, but I get a good deal of physical space from her. You live together. It's easier for me to let them have their feelings because I'm LC. I'm in constant awe of your patience and deliberate kindness and level head in the midst of a good deal of very justified anger and frustration.  

I've noticed this strange phenomenon with me - as things start to shift in a positive direction, and I begin to hope, I notice an increased level of anger and frustration. Almost like I see the light at the end of the tunnel, I start relaxing the self-control muscles I've been clenching so long. The urgency amps up. Have you noticed the same? I've gotten to the point now where I am aware of what's happening enough to understand it for what it is. It's usually time to hold steady - maintain the messages.

I agree with Harri - I don't think you were too harsh. I've been in similar situations where my MIL put out a, "are you going to always be there for me" kind of feeler. H's knee jerk response is to say anything to make her feel better, honest or not. He went to the lengths of saying she could move in with us, something he and I agreed clearly would never happen. I, on the other hand, prefer gentle honesty and clear expectations. Even that comes across as harsh and unloving. I've made my MIL cry too. I've really had to find my center and study my intent in the midst of some nasty accusations of not caring, being hateful, etc.

Can we handle things better sometimes? Sure, but we're learning about this strange world of BPD as we go, right? Are we being harsh? No. We're shifting the way they're used to relating. It's so uncomfortable for them. It causes them pain, but it's not unloving or hateful or harsh. It's usually most effective in small doses.  

And my H has said the same about feeling criticized all the time. That wasn't my intent, but I took note of what he said. Again, most effective in small doses. Do what works.

Big hugs. It's darkest before the dawn. There may be some positive changes coming up soon. I know you're tired of running this race. Stay focused on your goal.

Any news on setting a deadline?

[GaGrl]

I'm thinking March 15 would be a good deadline. You already have an April 1 date for the lease renewal, right? Whether or not you renew, March 15 would be good for her belongings to be gone, with two weeks for you to pack, should you be moving.

Then I'd buy some moving boxes and set them up for her to start packing. Make it real.

[Mata]

Hi Spindle0516.  My H and I have the inverse situation of you, my mom has BPD and he is trying to support me.   

I feel like he is overcompensating in so many other areas- volunteering to walk the dog when she says she is about to do it, volunteering to do the dishes when she says she is about to go do it- and it confuses me. We have worked so hard at even getting her to do those things, so why are we now offering to do them when she independently says she is doing it? When I ask him about it, I think he feels judged and criticized by me, and that isn’t my intention.

This sounds a bit like me, I do stuff like this with my mom.  I can't really explain it, except that I think I do it to alleviate my feelings of guilt.  I want my mom to be responsible for herself, but I also feel guilty expecting that of her.  So when she sometimes does things for herself, then it's like I want to 'reward' her for doing good, by doing things for her.  I recognize it's very circular and unhealthy.   .

I honestly think there is part of him that is also really just frustrated with himself and how hard breaking away is for him.

I bet you are correct.  This is absolutely true for me! 

It is awesome that you are such a supportive spouse.  Try not to be too hard on yourself.  I know from my experience that having my H as an anchor of sanity is a lifesaver for me. 

Sometimes I get frustrated because he is able to set boundaries and work through this BPD stuff so much faster/easier than I can.  I think that is due to the fact he doesn't have the history.  For example, when my mom calls or sends a text, he takes her words at face value.  Whereas, for me, every statement has underlying sub-context, I am judging her tone of voice, her body language, analyzing what words she uses because some are triggers or have special meaning to her, etc.  So I don't think you are being mean or impatient.  You are just coming at this problem from a different starting point.    

[Spindle0516]

Thank you everyone. Every time I think we are in over our head, I look to here and I see your responses and I see other posts and I remember I am not so alone in this. It brings such comfort, doesn’t it? I also appreciate all of you who have taken the time to help me see and understand the challenges that my husband is facing. 

PJ-I think you put to words what has been in my head, but didn’t have the ability to articulate yet. I think you might be right. I do find that the more progress we make in a specific area, I do get more frustrated and antsy. I feel so close to our goal and I just want to jump to the point in time when we are there already. It is so hard to remember to stay grounded in those moments, so thank you for the reminder.

So this morning, I sat with MIL and we went through pro/con lists of her different possible living situations and made some phone calls to senior housing facilities in NYC. Her pro list for staying here consist of being close to her 2 sons, being able to see future grandchildren (not born yet, nor are any in the works), going to Mets games, and her psychiatrist. Her pro list for Florida consists of better weather as she HATES the cold and being able to swim regularly in her neighborhood pool. She said she would add seeing her 2 grandkids, but she is convinced she will never be allowed to see them again.

Harri- you are not wrong. There are things that my husband and I have been concerned about from the very beginning about her returning to that home. She has COPD and other chronic breathing issues that we think are a result of that house once having had black mold. That has since been removed, but one of the reasons she left was because her physical health was declining rapidly. (Honestly, I think she would have died by now had she stayed in that house.) What is confusing is that she has been adamant about returning there for the past year, and until now, has not expressed concern about living in that house. When she was in the hospital, the psychiatrist said all she spoke about was the need for independence and her desire to be away from us. She also lived in that house for years separate from the abusive people in her life and is constantly talking about how she worked her whole life to a have a house that is hers and she just wants it back. Furthermore, she also lived in that house alone without any of her kids for a period of time, even though she is adamant that never happened. So it is hard to know if she is avoiding that house because she doesn’t want to stir the pot with her family or if she is actually, but not unreasonably, scared.

Now, we know that things will never be consistent. They never have and we addressed that with the psychiatrist there, but they were adamant that this should be pursued for her own mental health. Now that we are moving on it, and that things are hard, we are swinging the other way. The grass is always greener wherever she is not.

Today she asked us to tell her where we would be happiest to see her go. We told her that we would be happiest wherever she was happiest as long as her needs were being met and that she was safe. She did not like that answer. She also told me privately that my H told her that he does not have a healthy relationship with her and he has felt responsible of her emotional health since he was a kid. She suggested that maybe it is better if she leaves so he can be okay. (Thought lasted about 5 minutes until anxiety set in)
So we continue to look at options and explore where she wants to go. Today we even went and drove by some senior housing apartment buildings for her to see what they are like at her request.

We have not given her a date yet- still working out when that should be as general logistics have been complicated. Which brings me to my next few questions- I thought about posting this as a new thread, but figured I can continue here. Let me know if this is better suited as a new topic.

This is what we know:
-We told MIL we need space and that she needs to move out. The initial plan we presented was formulated around the intention that she WANTED and NEEDED to return to her house. Had we known how this conversation would shift, we may have approached this a little bit differently?
-Things have become complicated with SIL and MIL’s mom, so now she wants to stay here, and wants to be removed from that chaos (This is probably actually the healthiest option even if it isn’t the best one financially.
-MIL is on a fixed income with SSD of approximately 1200 a month plus SNAP so housing options outside of living with us or returning to her FL home, are severely limited. Medicaid funded housing has extremely long wait lists.
-MIL has Medicare and Medicaid application was submitted- should receive a response any day and she should be approved.
- MIL is actually only 61 and will not be 62 until the end of the year, so even though she is considered disabled, she doesn’t actually qualify for senior services for another 7 months or so. (And that is assuming they all kick in immediately and the wait list moved way quicker than actually predicted.) This is outside of the relative time frame that we have given her/ terms of our lease should we need to move.
-MIL has a terrible history of spending money inappropriately and outside of what she can ever afford.

So these are the things that we are trying to figure out:
1.   Now that she has expressed legitimate concern over her safety/retriggering PTSD in FL, should we wipe it off the table even if it may be her only financially sound option ? (Still waiting on some phone calls to be returned regarding this matter)
2.   How do we navigate her money management? Right now, we are in control of her finances. Do we continue to do that when she moves out? Or do we hand it over even if we know she might not be responsible with it and let her suffer the consequences?
3.   What if she isn’t eligible for senior housing right now and is adamant about staying here? Even studio apartments often cost more than 1200 and that leaves her no funds for survival. And unfortunately, my husband and I are strapped, as is my BIL, so I don’t even know if we can supplement.
4.   Is it cruel to continue to stick to her moving out if her only sound option is one where she is now expressing (and not without valid reason) fear about going there?

I think this about summarizes the struggle in our head today. Thank you all for your continued encouragement and support. I hope this isn’t too confusing and kind of makes sense?

[pursuingJoy]

-We told MIL we need space and that she needs to move out. The initial plan we presented was formulated around the intention that she WANTED and NEEDED to return to her house. Had we known how this conversation would shift, we may have approached this a little bit differently?

I know you know this already, but the challenge with approaching it from this perspective is that when she changes her mind, this reasoning goes out the window. I know you've also approached it, lovingly and unapologetically, with the reasoning that you need space as a couple. I like this approach because it won't change and you're claiming what you want, not basing the decision on something someone else wants.

-Things have become complicated with SIL and MIL’s mom, so now she wants to stay here, and wants to be removed from that chaos (This is probably actually the healthiest option even if it isn’t the best one financially.
-MIL is on a fixed income with SSD of approximately 1200 a month plus SNAP so housing options outside of living with us or returning to her FL home, are severely limited. Medicaid funded housing has extremely long wait lists.
-MIL has Medicare and Medicaid application was submitted- should receive a response any day and she should be approved.
- MIL is actually only 61 and will not be 62 until the end of the year, so even though she is considered disabled, she doesn’t actually qualify for senior services for another 7 months or so. (And that is assuming they all kick in immediately and the wait list moved way quicker than actually predicted.) This is outside of the relative time frame that we have given her/ terms of our lease should we need to move.
-MIL has a terrible history of spending money inappropriately and outside of what she can ever afford.

Will medicare/medicaid offer some relief? How much will senior services assist once they kick in, and are you willing to wait for 7 months?

1.   Now that she has expressed legitimate concern over her safety/retriggering PTSD in FL, should we wipe it off the table even if it may be her only financially sound option ? (Still waiting on some phone calls to be returned regarding this matter)

I don't think so. She is ultimately responsible for her relationship to SIL and her own mother. What phone calls are you waiting for? That might provide some context.

2.   How do we navigate her money management? Right now, we are in control of her finances. Do we continue to do that when she moves out? Or do we hand it over even if we know she might not be responsible with it and let her suffer the consequences?

Did someone else handle money for her before you did? I wonder if there's a 3rd party agency that might do something like that.

3.   What if she isn’t eligible for senior housing right now and is adamant about staying here? Even studio apartments often cost more than 1200 and that leaves her no funds for survival. And unfortunately, my husband and I are strapped, as is my BIL, so I don’t even know if we can supplement.

Being strapped for funds and becoming adamant about staying does not merit sacrificing your boundary of needing space. What you want is important, Spindle. 

4.   Is it cruel to continue to stick to her moving out if her only sound option is one where she is now expressing (and not without valid reason) fear about going there?

I know it creates anxiety for all, but maintaining your boundary of needing space is not cruel. At all. 

It sounds like her fear of moving to FL is becoming more significant. If she moves to FL, you would still have influence and the ability to care for her. Telhill, Methuen, gagrl and others here are navigating aging parents and have learned the fine art of engaging local support services. I wonder if we can help you brainstorm ways to create a safety net for her if she does move to FL.

I'm sending you some of my strength today Spindle. My goodness you're really in a storm. Accept and claim what you want, lovingly and unapologetically. 

[pursuingJoy]

One more random thought: my MIL has gone down the 'I'm ready to move' road about three times. Each time, she almost bit the bullet, then had a huge panic attack that left her terrified, and she refused to move. Be prepared for an outburst or dysregulation just as she begins to reach a decision. Stay steady, that's what she'll need.

Big hugs.

[GaGrl]

Her fear could very well be manipulation based on how she sees you and your H react when she is scared.I

Think of this as a retirement decision (because it is). She is approaching retirement age at the lower end of when most people retire. In deciding where to spend retirement years, there are a lot of factors to consider:

Cost of housing
Availability of housing
Cost of utilities
Cost and availability of transportation
Cost and availability of medical care
Ability to tap into a social network
General cost of living (food, clothes, etc.)
Availability and cost of home health care, when needed

There are so many considerations. If you hold your boundary and MIL has to assess knowing that staying another seven months isn't an option and your ability to subsidiaries't available, can she assess NY vs. Florida as a retirement pro/con?

Frankly, I don't know many people who move to NY for retirement.

[Spindle0516]

Be prepared for an outburst or dysregulation just as she begins to reach a decision. Stay steady, that's what she'll need.

I think we might be on the cusp of this and I am trying to be mindful of all the tools we have been implementing at all times. She is becoming more dysregulated every time we talk about it and we have been working double time to prevent a big blow out. She has been more short and is crying a lot more.

Today she mentioned that she once asked us before our wedding if "we were going to kick her out once we got married" and said that we told her "no, we would never do that." She kind of modified the conversation a bit, but I didn't argue and just replied with, "A lot has changed since then and I can see why it feels like we are kicking you out, but we are really just trying to find the best way for all of us to move forward in the healthiest way possible." She was still teary, but rather than arguing with me like she typically would, she replied with, "I just wish I could have my house back and not have to create problems."

. I like this approach because it won't change and you're claiming what you want, not basing the decision on something someone else wants.

Ugh, I know this, but I keep slipping up on that front. Even though her inital wish is what prompted this process, I have to constantly remind myself that it doesn't matter anymore. What we want has remained consistent and we have to stick with that.

Will medicare/medicaid offer some relief? How much will senior services assist once they kick in, and are you willing to wait for 7 months?

Medicaid will offer relief, but there are extensive waiting lists for housing on that front and it would be impossible to hold to a time frame there. We would be at the mercy of the system, and well, we know how that can go...

  What phone calls are you waiting for? 

Waiting for phone calls from senior service agencies regarding housing and case management services. This will give us an idea if she is even eligible yet and if they would become available in a time frame acceptable to us as I don't think we have another year of this in us.

Did someone else handle money for her before you did?

She did, but someone always bailed her out when she messed up- primarily her mom, but we don't know if she will continue to do that since she is mad that MIL is even considering kicking SIL out to move home. If MIL's mom doesn't bail her out, this will be the first time she will be in a position to deal with the consequences because we cannot and will not bail her out.

Telhill, Methuen, gagrl and others here are navigating aging parents and have learned the fine art of engaging local support services. I wonder if we can help you brainstorm ways to create a safety net for her if she does move to FL.

I am always reading all of your posts because I see so much of us in what all of you have been through! We know that she should be eligible via Medicaid to have someone help her grocery shop and complete tasks at home like cleaning her bathroom or anything that requires a little grunt work/elbow grease. And for the time being, she agreed to see a new psychiatrist and start therapy, but we will see about that.

Her fear could very well be manipulation based on how she sees you and your H react when she is scared.I

We have really tried to keep our personal opinion about her fears at bay because we know that there may be a level of manipulation at play. But it is difficult because even I am very uncomfortable in that house with my SIL's partner. He is an alcoholic and verbally abusive and just not pleasant to be around- and I don't have PTSD and BPD.

Today she said to me, "Nobody wants me around. Everyone just wants me gone, but noone will help me communicate with SIL and she will not answer me, so I am just being dumped with no options." I really didn't know what to say there except to continue to remind her that we love her.

My husband also told her today that she relies on him too much to regulate how she feels and that it is no different than what her mom and my SIL do to her. She always complains about that. He also said to her that she has used him as her rock since he was at least 14 and it will not continue anymore. He said she listened and was sad about that. I sense she never wanted to be like that, but even her desire to be a good and loving and supportive mom cannot prevent her from dysregulating when she feels any kind of anxiety.

[Methuen]

Hi Spindle

I "lost" this thread for a while, but I'm going to jump back in...

I just want to say that as I was doing a "quick read" of this thread from top to bottom, I was remembering your posts from your first thread...and from my distant perspective as a reader, I was thinking "wow...a lot of progress has really been made here".  I'm guessing it doesn't feel like that for you because you're living the back and forth chaos every day as her mind keeps changing, and the ripple effects of the complexities keep spreading.  But, sometimes when we're in the eye of the storm, we can't see the changes in our own growth.  You and your H are clearly "working hard" to climb your way up the BPD learning curve.  I believe you've made amazing progress.  I can hear it in your language.  You are doing great!  And because you are working so hard and doing your best, you will get through this, and yes, this too shall eventually pass.  

As I mentioned, I did a "quick read", so I know I missed a ton of details, and this story is complex enough that it has a ton of details.  But I'm going to throw a random idea out there, which possibly has no place now, and maybe not in the future either, but what the heck.

Florida has some pros for her.  The house is a bit of a conundrum as there is a Son in law there who sounds like he could be difficult for her to live with.  Plus it sounds like the house might trigger PTSD ? (I might have misinterpreted that).  But she likes Florida, and FL clearly has a pull for her because she has said 3X that she wants to move back.  But finances are also a bit tricky.  If she were to move back to the house for now, it wouldn't have to be her permanent FL residence long term right?  If she's considering a senior housing in your area, could it be an option to sell the FL home down the road (so there's not too much change at once right now), and use the income from the sale to move into senior housing in FL, and invest the balance (maybe with your help)?  IF the idea has any merit (and it probably doesn't except that it's a way to exit the problem of the current tenants and the PTSD triggers), then now is probably not the best time to throw another option at her.  Don't want any straws breaking the camels back at this point.  And I'm hesitant to even put it in print because it's probably a really lousy idea.  Just an outsider's random thought.  

It might not feel like it to you (in the eye of the storm), but reading your posts, I feel like you and H are handling a difficult situation about as well as anyone could.  

[Harri]

Hi Spindle!

Today she said to me, "Nobody wants me around. Everyone just wants me gone, but noone will help me communicate with SIL and she will not answer me, so I am just being dumped with no options." I really didn't know what to say there except to continue to remind her that we love her.

This is a tough one to respond to.  Especially because you are doing so much to help her.  I like that you keep telling her you care about and love her.  I question if that is the best response in this scenario.  Sometimes, with some pwBPD, if they are upset and talk about how no one wants them, telling them you do or that you love them can come across as invalidating or minimizing their feelings.  I would not validate her feeling on this nor would I encourage it.  I might say "wow, I would not like feeling that way either, that has to be hard." and then maybe follow up with a validating question which may then give you an opportunity to use SET or even just to listen with empathy and then move on.

He said she listened and was sad about that. I sense she never wanted to be like that, but even her desire to be a good and loving and supportive mom cannot prevent her from dysregulating when she feels any kind of anxiety.

I don't know her at all, but I am inclined to agree with you here.  I see very little of the behaviors of most pwBPD as being deliberate no matter how it may feel to us being on the receiving end of things.  I am often reminded that the phrase feelings do not equal facts (about another persons behaviors of intention) also applies to me/us!   

That said, I do think the concerns expressed here about possibly reinforcing her use of fear of being triggered by the house in Florida are valid.  It is a fine line to walk between what is valid and reinforcing a bad reaction.  Rather than manipulation, I see it more as reinforcing the fear in some ways.  I suggested earlier taking the house in florida off the list of options for the discussion thinking it can always be the fall back plan.  Your MIL will need support regardless of where she lives. 

I am thinking specifically in terms of money management when I mention support.  Longterm, this move out could fail as she is not capable of making good choices with finances.  History has shown this and you are right not to bail her out.  What about managing her bills for her from afar?  Her SSDI is auto deposited into an account and from there auto payments for rent/mortgage can be set up and bills can be delivered online.  Pay them right after the deposit is made and at least the bills are covered.  maybe set up a weekly allowance for her so she can not overdraft by large sums?  Would you feel safe being the ones to manage her funds?  Would she be able to handle that and is she worthy of that level of trust or would having an outsider manage that for her be better? 

I am thinking in terms of setting this up so she is successful in transitioning to living on her own again.  It does not sound like she has the financial skills to do so on her own, so she needs some sort of support there.  What other areas could potentially fall apart for her and make living on her own unfeasible? 

And yes, you really are making progress and doing great with all of this. 

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  The conversation continues here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342648.msg13098748#msg13098748

Thank you.