When she moves on, she does not necessairly move up.

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Catching up on my thread.

I certainly am not a gutter rat; but Professor Superman is her dream come true. He was not some redneck with a limited education.

Most of you post about how the replacement was a definitive step down. I am a damn good man and unlike new guy, I tried to STOP her from drinking. But outside of his obvious MO of abusing weak women, he would be considered by some unbiased eyes to be a step up from me.

That bothers me.

chiefsalsa, the fact that you can admit that this bothers you is a good thing. it does take courage to admit you have a little jealousy concerning the situation. our jealousy occurs to indicate to ourselves areas that we may want to improve upon.

so, while i think you are looking at this situation better--that this guy isn't the answer to her problems, that their r/s will fail inevitably. perhaps this could inspire you to take on some intellectual pursuits, pursue some educational or career goals. not at all because you want to be like Professor Superman or be in his position, just recognizing that you had these triggers and it may indicate areas you have control over improving (if you so please).

i also noticed you seem judgmental about how Prof Superman "uses" women who are "weak". and while of course this isn't behavior you would want for yourself, there is something to be said about boundaries and control here--although he may be abusive in this situation he seems much less like he is being victimized by her. it may be indicative that in future relationships perhaps we can adopt more of a policy of ensuring our needs are met and have stronger boundaries, rather than taking the 'savior' route, trying to get someone to stop drinking, only to realize they are attracted to people who encourage it.

you are spot on that this guy isn't better than you and that he's not better for her. i also think you can evaluate what was triggering you about their r/s, revealing some areas perhaps for self improvement completely separate from your past with her.

[goldylamont]

Catching up on my thread.

I certainly am not a gutter rat; but Professor Superman is her dream come true. He was not some redneck with a limited education.

Most of you post about how the replacement was a definitive step down. I am a damn good man and unlike new guy, I tried to STOP her from drinking. But outside of his obvious MO of abusing weak women, he would be considered by some unbiased eyes to be a step up from me.

That bothers me.

chiefsalsa, the fact that you can admit that this bothers you is a good thing. it does take courage to admit you have a little jealousy concerning the situation. our jealousy occurs to indicate to ourselves areas that we may want to improve upon.

so, while i think you are looking at this situation better--that this guy isn't the answer to her problems, that their r/s will fail inevitably. perhaps this could inspire you to take on some intellectual pursuits, pursue some educational or career goals. not at all because you want to be like Professor Superman or be in his position, just recognizing that you had these triggers and it may indicate areas you have control over improving (if you so please).

i also noticed you seem judgmental about how Prof Superman "uses" women who are "weak". and while of course this isn't behavior you would want for yourself, there is something to be said about boundaries and control here--although he may be abusive in this situation he seems much less like he is being victimized by her. it may be indicative that in future relationships perhaps we can adopt more of a policy of ensuring our needs are met and have stronger boundaries, rather than taking the 'savior' route, trying to get someone to stop drinking, only to realize they are attracted to people who encourage it.

you are spot on that this guy isn't better than you and that he's not better for her. i also think you can evaluate what was triggering you about their r/s, revealing some areas perhaps for self improvement completely separate from your past with her.

[Overbeck]

Goldy,

Profound words. Thank you.

I am educated. I'm highly intelligent. She used to say that she felt stupid around me. She'd say she wasn't smart enough to be around me. And this guy is a scientist-mathematician! It makes no sense to me.

This is my trigger. This is the albatross that keeps me from moving on. The NC is good with me. The lying and alcoholism make it easy to move on. And I have put her verbal and physical abuse into perspective. I have dealt with it.

But if I'm too be honest with myself and all of you, as a means to heal, I have to admit it: The fact that she's with a man that is 5 rungs above her intellect... .and feeds her worst addictions, ferments in my brain.

He's a bad guy.

I know I shouldn't care. I know it doesn't matter. Tell my brain that. Tell that to me when out of nowhere I have a crying spell.

I don't devalue Professor Superman. I done elevate him either. I'm just pissed he exists. And I'm pissed that I'm pissed about it.

[goldylamont]

But if I'm too be honest with myself and all of you, as a means to heal, I have to admit it: The fact that she's with a man that is 5 rungs above her intellect... .and feeds her worst addictions, ferments in my brain.

he may be more book smart than her. but regardless if he can solve quadratic equations, they are on the *same* level of emotional intelligence. this guy has degrees, is a professor, yet only has the balls to attract women who he *thinks* are weak and easily controlled? hmmm, maybe because he's so weak himself he can't hack being with a strong woman? she is grown. she's probably aware of this already on an emotional level, and she's getting something out of the exchange i guarantee it.

it's important to not perpetuate the idea that she is a continual victim in life. this is the story she sells. she's a grown woman and she's probably more emotionally aware of what she's doing than you may be giving her credit for. pwBPD don't stick around with people when their needs aren't being met. so what may appear to you as him feeding her addictions could just as well be seen as her meeting her immediate desires.

He's a bad guy.

I know I shouldn't care. I know it doesn't matter. Tell my brain that. Tell that to me when out of nowhere I have a crying spell.

I don't devalue Professor Superman. I done elevate him either. I'm just pissed he exists. And I'm pissed that I'm pissed about it.

All of what you say is understandable. And chiefsalsa when i say that it's courageous that you are able to admit these things to yourself and others, i'm not just blowing smoke up your butt. seriously, letting this out and coming to terms with it takes a lot of courage. now that this is out you can examine the emotion and the feelings behind it. just by facing these uncomfortable feelings your awareness is expanding so you are able to analyze yourself with more objectivity. deserving of applause :-)

and on the same train of thought of expanded awareness, now that we have this we can start to question *why* you are pissed he exists. perhaps it's that you held the love you gave in high regard. believing that your behavior and treatment of your ex was "better" in a sense. both morally and for her well being. and now this guy comes in with party tricks and forces you to question this assumption. that would piss me off too.

i can't say for sure why this makes you angry, but you now have a solid foundation set to figure this out for yourself. wishing you the best chiefsalsa.

[Overbeck]

Goldy,

Regarding this:

and on the same train of thought of expanded awareness, now that we have this we can start to question *why* you are pissed he exists. perhaps it's that you held the love you gave in high regard. believing that your behavior and treatment of your ex was "better" in a sense. both morally and for her well being. and now this guy comes in with party tricks and forces you to question this assumption. that would piss me off too.

Yes! I put in 7 years of work. I was there for every hellish episode. I took the 3 AM phone calls. I pulled her out the bars when her face was flat drunk in a plate of nachos. I went to court when she decided to file fake police reports. I forgave her.

I do not want her back. I really do not. But for this guy, who works in her building, to come along and be the guy who feeds her booze... .and he is Superman? Yeah, you are god damned right it pisses me off!

I did what I did because I loved her. And she smugly told me she "moved on" the last two times she broke NC. I was resolute not to get sucked in--and thankfully I was not. But for her to think that she somehow is a better person because she lets a PhD mount her after a 6 pack of cheap beer is so audacious that I cannot ignore it. She is not a better person, she just gets drunk and screwed by a PhD.

I am better. But then some hours I am not. I think of her as nothing more than a lying, drunk, piggish whore. But that rage is not just targeted at her, but more potently, inward.

She has not moved on, or up. She is headed for a hideous end---maybe another stay in the psych ward---or worse. And I refuse to apologize for taking glee in that knowledge. My anger is my torch that leads me out of her black hole of cancerous, rotting death.

[MommaBear]

My anger is my torch that leads me out of her black hole of cancerous, rotting death.

Wow. Just... .wow. Poetic, if not slightly dripping with venom!

But yeah, I get it. I feel the same way when the anger gets to me.

He always told me that he hated less educated women, then he deliberately goes out and gets one with some technical degree (please don't hate me, I'm a PhD student, actually!), and goes on and on about how she's younger and firmer and never had kids ... .

This in and of itself doesn't make me get angry, because I know this poor girl is in for the emotional rollercoaster ride of her life with him, and I do legitimately feel sorry for her, but watching him mirror her is infuriating!

Suddenly, all these "mature, sophisticated, responsible" things I had an interest in that he used to enjoy (at least in the early stages) are now replaced with new hobbies and ideas and even values. It's like he's a whole new person.

But he reserves his hatred for me. That hasn't changed.

Professor Superman is an idiot. We've got a few in the department that like to drink and get into messed up relationships. Believe me, soon enough, grant season will be here, or he'll have a faculty evaluation coming up, and he'll have to buckle down and ignore her for a couple of weeks. If she's anything like my ex, being ignored for the sake of "books" will drive her absolutely insane.

As for mirroring him, she might be able to keep up with him in a bar or in bed, but we academics are a quirky bunch, and a good part of our lives can only be understood by other academics. She can only mirror so much.

[Arminius]

,And I refuse to apologize for taking glee in that knowledge. My anger is my torch that leads me out of her black hole of cancerous, rotting death.

I take similar glee knowing mine is now 'involved with' , to use her term, a man old enough  to be her father, who entertains holidays crowds whilst dressed as elvis, or Sinatra , or puppeteering the night away.  Yep, she settles on a holiday entertainer in his 50s to her 30s... .

If she didn't used to be mine, if I didn't know her intimately, I'd probably find her current situation hilarious. Wastes of space, the pair of them.

[Tausk]

Although it is difficult not to compare, I've found it to be an exercise in feeding my shame and maladaptive schema's.  I can get twisted and obsessive... .And in the end it's just a way to avoid the work of my own recovery and digging in deeper to determine why I invited the Disorder into my life.

If our exes trade down from us, what did the people we replace say about us?   And why compare?  I used to think that I was so much better for my ex than her previous boyfriends.  But now I'm just another abusive one.  And whether it's true or not, that's her honest believe.  So how am I better or worse than any of her attachments... .past, present or future?

Moreover, people with health relationships and health breakups don't compare and despise the way us ex-partners on the board do.

I invited the the Disorder into my life due to very specific characteristics including loneliness, lack of self esteem and living through a false sense of self.  Those characteristic also fit the trend of most everyone on this board. I find relief from the suffering and growth and recovey only by focusing on myself.  Closure means denying access to the Disorder into my body, speech and mind.

Feeding the familiar pain of obsessing about my ex, whom I know is not good for me, just feeds the Disorder that still festers in my soul.   My ex will not get better.  My ex will not become an adult emotionally.  My replacement will not be treated any differently.  But he may react differently.  I hope he's better for her than I was, because now I believe that in the long run I probably drove my ex deeper into the Disorder and farther from a chance at happiness.

[Arminius]

Tausk,

There is much truth in what you say, however to take it to it's ultimate conclusion, surely we all need to stop even thinking of logging in if we are to be truly 'cured'?

[Arminius]

Additionally, whilst we may well be now painted as black as our predecessors, ( and we have to also accept they they too may have been perfectly nice, kind, normal people) and have to accept that we may or may not have been a step 'up' or 'down' from them, it doesn't impact on whether I or anyone else wants to make a comparison between ourselves and any new partner.

Regardless of any lies my uBPDxgf may tell about me or any predecessors , when she lays down with a man old enough to be dad, who lives a life dressing as a bear, or elvis, or with his hands up the ass of Punch and Judy, I know she traded DOWN

[learnandgrow]

Chiefsalsa,

I can sympathize. I think I'm in the same place as you. I do not want my ex back, either. I've been carrying on NC well... .haven't looked and I have no idea if she's contacted me. Still, I'm angry, too. All of the BS we were fed, and then they jump ship to the nearest person with the qualities they say they never wanted. On top of it, we are smeared and unappreciated despite our hard work. I'm pissed, too. I still hope she "gets hers." I would never take her back... .and I don't want her back. But I desperately want to believe in karma.

In the end, I want to come out on top. I want to be the happy one, the successful one, the one with great relationships. Still, I'd be lying if I said finding out she failed down the line wouldn't give me a little satisfaction. I don't know if the anger is normal... .but it's there.

[Arminius]

The anger... .it's normal. And IMO healthy and even desirable. You need to not even like this person.

[Overbeck]

My anger is my torch that leads me out of her black hole of cancerous, rotting death.

As for mirroring him, she might be able to keep up with him in a bar or in bed, but we academics are a quirky bunch, and a good part of our lives can only be understood by other academics. She can only mirror so much.

I do not have Facebook. But she has a private FB. A friend of mine showed me a few weeks back--when I still "feeding the monster" by gathering information, a page where she "liked" a news story where Professor Superman was talking about how beetles were dying off from climate change.

She is not smart enough to comprehend what was in that column. She was liking that page to show some form of mirroring technique for her "man".

She is not a gushy romantic. She is not big on kisses or I Love Yous. She is not prone to affectionate gestures.

But yet there it was; "liking" an article I KNOWshe did not understand.

Today I walked around campus for exercise. I was able to walk by her building because today was a state holiday in Utah, and so everyone had off. But Professor Superman's truck was there. The temptation to go to his office and talk to him---not as a confrontation, but just to say "hello"---was not strong, but it did make me smile to think about.

I still think they are doomed to end, and badly, very soon. Loading her up with booze and the promise of any type of sex cannot replace stimulating conversation... .which she lacks. But the trick for me is not to care one way or the other. On that point, I am failing miserably.

[Unique135]

I am a woman, and I do not have BPD but from all your posts and how you describe your exes and how much better you are, I would NOT date any one of you.  I am sorry but if you had that attitude while dating, I am glad they found someone else.  It has nothing to do with money, education, etc.  Why would you even think that you are better than they are if you make more money, have more education, etc.  It seems like they were merely just objects for you and you might have a few narcissistic  traits of your own.

I am not trying to be mean, I am dealing with a BPD ex as well, but the kind of thinking you have, you might just drive away every other woman you meet in the future.

Good luck!

[Arminius]

Unique, you are of course entitled to your opinion but please remember that so are others!

I stand by my own posts. I know who I am and I know who she was representing herself as, I know the life we had and it's one many would love. I certainly don't consider myself better that any of her exes, because actually, I will never know the truth about them. But I do have the low down on my successor and he is a joke.

Whether you would date anyone of us is largely irrelevant.

[learnandgrow]

No offense, but I don't think you get what Overbeck, myself, or others have gone through. I have dated plenty of women where the relationship didn't work out. Some, I am still good friends with today. I've left all of them on good terms and wish them all the best. I'm willing to bet Overbeck has dated women and ended the relationship in a similar way.

However, a breakup with a BPD partner is different. There's betrayal... .the lies... .the sudden loss... .the FOG we've been through... .sometimes for years. We are left angry, bewildered, and at a loss for words. It's not normal, and we were just tools for them. I think the anger is justified.

I personally think you're out of line for the attack on Overbeck. From what I've read, you're still involved with your BPD so you haven't dealt with the awful end of the relationship. Tell me how you feel when it happens. Chances are you're already in the middle of a huge lie and you haven't discovered it yet.

I am a woman, and I do not have BPD but from all your posts and how you describe your exes and how much better you are, I would NOT date any one of you.  I am sorry but if you had that attitude while dating, I am glad they found someone else.  It has nothing to do with money, education, etc.  Why would you even think that you are better than they are if you make more money, have more education, etc.  It seems like they were merely just objects for you and you might have a few narcissistic  traits of your own.

I am not trying to be mean, I am dealing with a BPD ex as well, but the kind of thinking you have, you might just drive away every other woman you meet in the future.

Good luck!

[Unique135]

No offense, but I don't think you get what ChiefSalsa, myself, or others have gone through. I have dated plenty of women where the relationship didn't work out. Some, I am still good friends with today. I've left all of them on good terms and wish them all the best. I'm willing to bet ChiefSalsa has dated women and ended the relationship in a similar way.

However, a breakup with a BPD partner is different. There's betrayal... .the lies... .the sudden loss... .the FOG we've been through... .sometimes for years. We are left angry, bewildered, and at a loss for words. It's not normal, and we were just tools for them. I think the anger is justified.

I personally think you're out of line for the attack on ChiefSalsa. From what I've read, you're still involved with your BPD so you haven't dealt with the awful end of the relationship. Tell me how you feel when it happens. Chances are you're already in the middle of a huge lie and you haven't discovered it yet.

I am a woman, and I do not have BPD but from all your posts and how you describe your exes and how much better you are, I would NOT date any one of you.  I am sorry but if you had that attitude while dating, I am glad they found someone else.  It has nothing to do with money, education, etc.  Why would you even think that you are better than they are if you make more money, have more education, etc.  It seems like they were merely just objects for you and you might have a few narcissistic  traits of your own.

I am not trying to be mean, I am dealing with a BPD ex as well, but the kind of thinking you have, you might just drive away every other woman you meet in the future.

Good luck!

Like I said, I am not trying to blame you.  I have been through a lot with my BPD and yes I am still involved with him, but i have told him what I will and will not tolerate and he knows that I will walk away anytime.  Like you, I would blame myself, my friends would always tell me that I am too good for him and the reason why he is treating me bad is because he knows I am too good for him.  Understand that part of their behavior stems from the fact that they are insecure and have a low self-esteem and even a shred of criticism drives them away.

I say this because I have also dated a man who did not have BPD but again had a very low self esteem and would always try to find some sort of fault with me in order for him to feel good.  I would always cry and I thought that I wasn't good enough.  Yes, I did downgrade after him but I would rather have emotional support and understanding then a guy who can offer me materialistic possessions and cannot understand my feelings.

That said, BPDs are sick.  They are sensitive and sometimes they do things because they believe you think less of them and that you will leave them.  I am sure, in some ways she wanted to hurt you because she thought that you were trying to belittle her or abandon her.  I am not saying she had the right to do what she did, but it takes two to tango.  Nons also act in a way that triggers the BPDs.  We may not understand it because our minds work differently.  Maybe the alcoholic praises her and tells her how smart she is.  Maybe he listens and validates her feelings and you did not do that... .People's needs are different. 

With my BPD, he always thought that what I needed was a house, a nice car, a good job, money, etc. because I have had all that in my life.  He thinks that because he feels insecure around me.  What he does not understand is that all I need is for him to listen to my needs, understand and be able to communicate with me.  Every time I tell him that I am not interested in materialistic possessions, he believes that I am trying to feel sorry for him because he does not have certain things.  It is really difficult for me to make him understand that.  So, for him it is easier to date a girl who has less education, worse car, house, is worse looking etc. so that he feels like that person is dependent on him and will not leave him. 

It is not about you, it is their insecurities and low self-esteem.  I work with kids with special needs.  If one of my children with behavior problems hits me, I am not going to get angry because he has a disorder.  I ignore the behavior and only praise the positive behavior.  Why get angry at a BPD if you know that it is her disorder that is causing the havoc. Don't reinforce her negative behavior, and she might even realize how much she has hurt you.  If not, then it was just a life experience and move on.

I know that you are angry, but letting go of the anger will actually bring you more happiness then

[Rapt Reader]

Please remember:

3.0 Discussion Format: bpdfamily/bpdfamily.com is set up as a collegium. We follow a Collegial Discussion format which is characterized as having "authority" vested equally among colleagues/peers. As such, members present their ideas in "collegial harmony" and the credibility of their positions are based solely on the quality of the points they advance in writing. Diversity is to be embraced - there is often much to be learned from others views and perspectives.

Please note that collegial discussion is different than debate. Debate is an argument or a discussion generally ending with a vote or agreement on the best decision. In debate, unity is the objective. Members are discouraged from debating and arguing against others' positions, questioning the wisdom of others, or restating of their position repeatedly.

[Overbeck]

You did not lock this thread. I set up the next thread in the series.

[BacknthSaddle]

I suspect that part of this type of thinking comes from mirroring.  During idealization phase, we know what our partners want: us.  We are indeed the perfect version of what they want. Ultimately they push us away, we get split black, then we try to be more of that perfect version of ourselves and consequently just get split blacker.  When they move on, they might move on to someone completely different from us, because of course they weren't looking for a perfect version of "us" after all; they were just looking for a stable self to mirror.  Since we get stuck on the idea that what our partner really wanted was "us," we see the new partner as a lesser version of "us," and thus a trade-down, when it really isn't about up or down at all.  It's just about new.

In my case, my ex and I were not traditionally compatible along lines related to education, socioeconomic status, cultural interests, etc.  In the midst of the relationship I did think "wow, she will never do better than me," and when she found someone new who didn't match me along those parameters, yeah I thought it was a trade down, and I found it very confusing.  But ultimately a) I'm not any better than that guy and as importantly b) I'm not any better than that guy FOR HER.  I am different from him, sure, but there are plenty of women who would prefer what he has to offer ( I don't actually know that much about him) to what I have.  I have a lot going for me but I can be temperamental and condescending and very sensitive.  We all have flaws.  People who truly love us accept us, flaws and all.  PwBPD rarely do.  In this case, though, it really doesn't matter: he's just a different character to mirror.  There is no reason for me to take her choice of partner personally.