Anyone ever seen proof of their exBPD in another bad relationship?

[Confused69]

Hello.  I was just wondering if anyone out there has seen their exBPD self destruct or just plain never change in their new relationships. I've read that they will never change and eventually will unleash the same kind of hell on the next poor soul.  This has been the hardest part for me to come to grips with.  Thanks

[Willy]

I know after the b/u, my xBPDgf went with a narc/schizoid (from my armchair) guy. She knows him for a long time, also before our r/s. I know him a little bit from the sideline, and always got very strange vibes from him. I know he is abusive. I actually thought that on a level I couldn't understand, the two were perfect for each other. She is triangulating (read definition) him now with another woman, who has a r/s with a friend of the narc/schizoid. A real soap opera! Never a dull moment in BPD-world.

[waterrat]

Mine was a mother of 2 from 2 different fathers, never married.  Guy after me lasted 2 months, she also lost her best and only friend of 14 years at the same time. 

Soap Opera to say the least.

[sadblueeyes]

I don't know for sure who he's with now, but I found out after our relationship was over that he had a pattern of unstable, volatile relationships. His fiance left him after 3 years and THAT was his longest. Also heard a story from an ex, that was a blow by blow exact scenario of something that happened to her and happened to me. Wow! That was a real eye opener! Talk about sticking to a pattern

[Confused69]

When I first got with my exuBPDgf i heard all the stories of how bad her Previous husband was. I fell for it. I believed her. He has their two youngest kids and he moved about 5 hrs away.  He was a good guy. We became friends as we would go visit her kids on weekends. I'm sure he's sitting back watching how our relationship crumbled. I hope one day I get the pro privelage of seeing it in her next relationship. She drove him to attempting suicide. He survived and he seems a lot happier now that she's not in his life as much. I talked to him a few times and he said "I never thought she would trat you like that" .   It made me see that it really seems like she will always be this way with who ever she's with.  

[30plusyears]

Dunno. I went no contact during the divorce nearly 5 years ago. I hear vague reports from the kids. She is always with someone new when they see her once overy two years. And they always come home angry and confused after their rare visits with her. Both my daughters-in-law are aghast at her behavior, but we've agreed not to discuss it.

[HostNoMore]

I had first hand knowledge of how she treated her former husband (i.e. cheating, controlling, push-pull) as I knew her for many years. Though I had no idea of BPD until I got sucked into her vortex and kicked out in a disgustingly sadistic manner.  However as I learned more about BPD, I soon realized that one could recognize the BPD traits from her in her former marriage.

She would cyclically trash her exH to anyone w/in earshot one day and then the next day he was perfect.  Push/Pull!

I listened as she would tell me how she forced her exH to physically stay away from her unless SHE wanted him to be with her.  Controlling!

I witnessed her exH frantically running around a social engagement worried that his wife would "hook up" with somebody. Cheater!

I watched one night when she was out without her husband in our group as she went off to cheat on her exH. Serial Cheater!

Yet, I still allowed myself to get drawn into her madness as her super white knight mega protector.  I also find myself feeling sympathy towards her exH as I now have an inkling of the hellish experience he had.

I am now less of an idiot than before.

[OverandDone]

I managed to access my ex's email account after the split (not my best moment).  She had moved on to another guy (he lived in another city a couple hours away) within a few weeks of our engagement being dissolved.  Was already saying things like "I've never been able to trust anyone like I can with you", "... .never felt this way with anyone before", yada yada yada.  I've never heard those lines before... .     But that was only part of the ridiculousness of it all.  On top of that she was fooling around with another guy in her town!  Then when she went on a weekend vacation with guy #1, she told guy #2 that he wouldn't be able to contact her because she was going to be on vacation at "her parents' lake house" where she gets poor reception.     You can't make this stuff up... .

I feel bad for guy #1 though... .he seemed like a romantic.  Kind of reminiscent of myself.  Guy #2 was at least 20 years her senior and a creep.  Sadly, guy #1 has more invested and will ultimately lose more when it all comes crashing down.  Either way, it was all evidence towards proving what I had deduced was a PD.  Makes you wonder how many of us nons will go through a relationship with a mentally ill person in our lives... .

[2010]

Many Borderlines assume the passive, helpless role in relationships looking for someone to take care of them rather than someone who will love them and respect them as equals. This keeps them playing the ”little girl” and “little boy” who still need to be told what to do. It also attracts partners who feel for the “little lost child” who then fixates on that persona and in doing so, deeply entrenches it.

Because BPD is an attachment disorder, Borderlines think in terms of “others” doing the planning for them. They hate the idea of being responsible for themselves, because self assertion brings on the fear of abandonment. In the Borderlines mind, this “coupling” is a fused unit, and the attachment needs to find all the ways to solve their problems for them. This also gives the partner a feeling of need while placing them in a parentified role.  Sooner or later, the clinging child becomes the hating child. This is a disorder.

This Parent/child dynamic places the partner in “one upmanship,” which means that the Borderline is never rewarded for becoming an individual (an Adult.)  Instead, the Borderline swings back and forth in half hearted efforts to please people (reward) and establish self assertion (withdrawal) which begins a fight over who is in charge (mastery) by the frustrated partner. This is the emotional dysregulation of the push and pull mysteries.

The partner begins to get frustrated and loses self esteem due to the inability to “fix” what’s wrong. In determining what the powerful needs are and how to fix them, the partner activates (triggers) the punitive parent that lives intrapsychically inside the Borderline head. This trigger is the voice of warning, the rebukes, the disapproval, the guilt, that has been kept locked in the Borderline psyche through the years.

Once Pandora’s box is opened, the Borderline will suppress any further moves to expand as a person and instead will “act” in/out as a person in relative bondage- They will complain, guilt trip, self harm and feel worthless, but they will suppress making moves in the forbidden direction away from the attachment in order to become “whole.” They either blame or cajole the slave master or they passive aggressively act out with hidden behaviors (such as triangulation (read definition) with a new, rewarding attachment,) causing the partner much distress and more need to “fix.”

Since the Borderline wants someone to take care of them like a parent (whether that person wants to or not) the new rewarding attachment takes on the previous partners “one-upmanship” and parentified role and helps the Borderline cast the former partner in persecution.

Borderline personality disorder is a persecution complex. This is a disorder. It will not change with the new partner, and the process will repeat.

The only difference is in how much the new partner can take of the arrested development, how long they can remain in the child-like state of fantasy projections and mirroring and how willing they are to be with a person who suffers the failure to be a mature, stand alone self; i.e.; an adult.

[JonnyJon42]

The last guy she was with wanted to kill himself over her after she left him for another guy (me)

[captainkirkz]

2010. In 6 weeks of reading articles on this site, that last post has to be the ultimate. It explains the whole dynamic to me in perfect detail. It rings so true.

Thanks very much! 

[sm15000]

Many Borderlines assume the passive, helpless role in relationships looking for someone to take care of them rather than someone who will love them and respect them as equals

I could never quite understand this aspect of my exuBPD/NPDso as one part of him - appeared to be so in control of himself, bordering on the arrogant. . .but this perfectly describes the BPD/NPD co-morbidity especially in a high functioning person.

Once Pandora’s box is opened, the Borderline will suppress any further moves to expand as a person and instead will “act” in/out as a person in relative bondage- They will complain, guilt trip, self harm and feel worthless, but they will suppress making moves in the forbidden direction away from the attachment in order to become “whole.” They either blame or cajole the slave master or they passive aggressively act out with hidden behaviors (such as triangulation (read definition) with a new, rewarding attachment,) causing the partner much distress and more need to “fix.”

Mine blamed and cajoled along with a passive aggressive way of acting out by sleeping with other women. . .he seemed to me in his talks about past relationships and with me to enjoy the hurt he knew he would cause by infidelity. . .pushing the boundaries of how much you will take

[ViciousCycle]

My ex practically cheated on me with a Heroin addict that was in a bad relationship himself, need I say anymore?

[2010]

I could never quite understand this aspect of my exuBPD/NPDso as one part of him - appeared to be so in control of himself, bordering on the arrogant. . .but this perfectly describes the BPD/NPD co-morbidity especially in a high functioning person.

In all likelihood, you are dealing with a Narcissist. The Narcissist "digests" people and transforms them into extensions of his false self.

Borderlines can puff up and try to appear grandiose, but they only do this in order to value themselves to attach to others.  They are completely unsure of who they are and struggle with it every day. Narcissists are certain of who they are yet they also struggle, in keeping and maintaining arm's distance from anyone who tries to rip off the mask they've created. The "false self" is grandiose and solitary (separate and individual) in it's grandiosity.  The Borderline cannot maintain this grandiosity due to the needed approval from others and the guilt and shame reactions create a persecution complex.

When dealing with the concept of co-morbidity, it's important to understand that the person's idea of reference about their "false self" is most important. Therefore, understand that not all Borderlines are Narcissists, but all Narcissists have Borderline traits when their "false self" is disrupted, due to ego deficiencies from the failure to become a "real" self.  

Both have ideas of reference from early childhood development, one has created a monster persona and the other has not.  The failure to "be" has been solved by one and the failure to not "be" has failed the other- both are using the false self as a solution (coping mechanism) to avoid the required abandonment depression that they needed to go through as a child- consequently, both are developmentally arrested at about the same stage.

Since Borderline is a deficient ego and Narcissism is a grandiose ego- the Narcissist has a better idea of himself than a Borderline does. Narcissists seek mirror reflections of themselves and are addicted to the feedback they get from adoration. Borderlines mirror, they are chameleons in order to attach. Borderlines allow themselves *to adore* in order to be subsumed (adored.) Narcissists allow others to adore and then subsume them.  Neither is operating from a place of healthy reality.

Narcissists are extremely emotionally labile, due to fears of being “unspecial” but they do not cling to another "self" like Borderlines do. They subsume. Narcissists objectify people as offerings to the temple; themselves. Narcissists do not serve; they require the attachment to serve them. Borderlines oblige. Borderlines objectify themselves as offerings.

The Borderline cannot hold their false self to task as a personal option other than the influence and approval of others. The Borderline has yet to emerge from a deficient state to appear grandiose except in mirroring.  This is where the label "high functioning" can be a part projection from the partner's grandiosity.

The Narcissist, on the other hand, expends the majority of his life's energy into keeping the idea of reference about himself as grandiose as possible and tries to avoid suffering narcissistic injury when the "false self" is threatened.  That requires not clinging to objects- but peeling them off of him in cleansing rage.

Narcissists are lone wolves as an emotional preventative measure. They are not unhappy about it unless their false self is threatened. The unhappiness they feel is due to objects (people) who do not properly reflect back their glory.

Borderlines are extremely unhappy, fearful and anxious as they are unsure of who they are without others to show them. They seek out a strong self to attach to and then they serve that attachment until persecution woes are triggered.

[captainkirkz]

When dealing with the concept of co-morbidity, it's important to understand that the person's idea of reference about their "false self" is most important. Therefore, understand that not all Borderlines are Narcissists, but all Narcissists have Borderline traits when their "false self" is disrupted, due to ego deficiencies from the failure to become a "real" self.  

Is my understanding correct then, that the co-morbidity develops at around the same time when arrested development occurs? One trait is not a consequence of the other?

Which trait wins out in the end? Grandiose or deficient? Or does neither ever become dominant? In my experience they switch depending on the current situation.

Great post again!

[StillInShock]

When dealing with the concept of co-morbidity, it's important to understand that the person's idea of reference about their "false self" is most important. Therefore, understand that not all Borderlines are Narcissists, but all Narcissists have Borderline traits when their "false self" is disrupted, due to ego deficiencies from the failure to become a "real" self.  

Is my understanding correct then, that the co-morbidity develops at around the same time when arrested development occurs? One trait is not a consequence of the other?

Which trait wins out in the end? Grandiose or deficient? Or does neither ever become dominant? In my experience they switch depending on the current situation.

Great post again!

That's what I believe in it too... .my ex-fiance was definitely a narcissist seeking attention all the time and bragging about it... .at the same time... .I have seen moments where he acted as a child... .begged me in several occasions to never ever leave him... .that was during the idealization period... .

We know borderlines discard their partners when something triggers their inner fears of abandonment... .what about narcissist? why they devalue and discard their victims after the idealization phase?

[kennumber777]

Yep... .she left me for a guy on drugs. Once she called me on the phone and I could hear the new guy in the background crying like a baby... .I kid you not.

To make things worse... .she's now pregnant with this guys' child

[Suzn]

  Yes ed, back to your question, I saw my exBPDgf in several bad r/s. I saw how she treated the people she used to cheat on me. The gay community is fairly small here so I could wear a tshirt that said "yes my ex is BPD... just ask her and her and her and her"(giving real names here in my community) and everyone would know each person on that shirt. Ive seen her go through people... just people she was out with and "all over", knowing they are the next victim. Or shaking my head seeing her with a recycle from the past... .of course I was once one of those people.

[2010]

the co-morbidity develops at around the same time when arrested development occurs?

No. These are deeply entrenched personality traits that occur separately.

One trait is not a consequence of the other?

No. In Borderline, a false self can be the outcome of a failed ego. In Narcissism, the ego is very successful and incorporates others to represent it.

Each disorder requires a different thought process that has it's genesis during the developmental stages.  The earliest sense of identity comes from an infant's contact with it's caregivers. One of the earliest stages is acquiring a sense of trust versus mistrust. If caregivers allow the infant attention -willingly, lovingly and reliably and in quick response, it's more likely that the infant will develop a sense of the environment as trustworthy and predictable. Erratic and unreliable parenting is more likely to result in mistrust.  Mistrust sets up the next stage to fail.

As the child grows, so do it's muscles. The child begins to experiment with holding on and letting go. Going to the bathroom at a certain time (holding on and letting go ) and Walking begins an idea of reference between Me- Not Me in earliest exploring away from Mother. The early stages of ego development begin- according to how Mother handles these things. Does she cling? Is she neglectful? Is she angry?  If potty training is shamed, the child begins to have a sense of doubt.  The child is now at the stage of acquiring a sense of autonomy versus shame and doubt. This is the development of free will and it will become damaged if the feedback from caregivers is damaging.

The infant begins to learn ritualization and in the process must distinguish between good and bad taught by the caregivers. Behind this, of course, are the images that the parents have of themselves and fears that their child may turn out just like them- so a significant part of this process involves mirroring for the child while learning. The child may not understand these "potential traits" that the parent fears, but the parent will teach them in order to show them right from wrong. In doing so, the parent projects their "self" onto the child.* This is the confusing part of Me- not Me for an emerging identity. Children who get stuck at this stage are developmentally arrested even though they continue on a daily basis to grow up and up into mature bodies. The mind remains stuck at the stage of shame and doubt.

*For example: a Mother who grew up neglected will say, I will never neglect my own child. She now becomes a helicopter Mother, deeply enmeshed in her child's emerging identity and monitoring it for faults. In effect, using the child for her own needs to feel better in her role as "Mother." The child learns to watch the caregiver carefully and take its cues as permissions rather than emerge as an independent self who makes mistakes and learns from them.

The child who attains a favorable ratio of autonomy to shame/doubt is likely to develop the capacity for willful self control. The child who gets stuck on shame and doubt will not develop self control.  This is the stage where Borderline personality begins.

"Will... .is the unbroken determination to exercise free choice as well as self restraint, in spite of the unavoidable experience of shame and doubt in infancy." (Erikson, 1964)

Borderline disorder is the broken determination to exercise free choice as well as self restraint, due to the unavoidable experience of shame and doubt in infancy.

Narcissism, on the other hand is free choice without self restraint.

Take a child and place him in the highchair so he is essentially captive. Now, hand him a ball. During the separation/individuation process in childhood, around the age of the "terrible twos" until three years, the child learns to distinguish *me-from -not me.*

He experiments by throwing the ball. If Mother retrieves the ball and places it back into the child's hand consistently, she is now "Me" rather than "not Me."  Mother now acts as an extension of the small child's idea of reference of himself.  This is what is known as "subsuming." Mother is not allowing her child to suffer abandonment depression by retreating as a separate individual.

Whenever he throws the ball, she will respond and retrieve the ball. (I'm simplifying this, but you can probably think of some Mothers who are consistent in this way. ) The child becomes a little Caesar and fails to see people as separate and apart from himself. Therefore all people represent his needs and are either good (they retrieve the ball) or bad (they fail to understand how great the command is.)

my ex-fiance was definitely a narcissist seeking attention all the time and bragging about it... .at the same time... .I have seen moments where he acted as a child... .begged me in several occasions to never ever leave him... .

Extensions of the self represent good mommy or bad mommy, but never the same good and bad within a whole person, separate and individual. This is the all or none thinking of the narcissist.

We know borderlines discard their partners when something triggers their inner fears of abandonment

Borderlines dont discard, they flee. They are stuck in the stage that Erikson called Will: Autonomy vs. Shame & Doubt (Toddlers, 18 mo. to 3 years) They suffer engulfment fears when they think that partners are trying to control them- and they return to this stage in a repetition compulsion. They  begin by seeking out new rewarding caregivers with mirroring- just like they did with their earliest caregivers. They want an attachment that wont trigger feelings of shame and doubt- but this is a disorder.  In order to rise above it, they would have to suffer through the required abandonment depression which they are convinced will annihilate them. The disorder has a fear of annihilation if left alone- and they think they require attachment. Much of the partner's requirement is for safety- but the end result is a distorted perception of persecution.

what about narcissist? why they devalue and discard their victims after the idealization phase?

The Narcissist objectifies people in order to support his grandiose self. If the object no longer works, it is devalued and discarded. Once devalued, it can be used again but only to shed blame and rage. It will never be valued in the same way again.  

For more information about Erikson's social stages (this applies to everyone of us.)  www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erikson%27s_stages_of_psychosocial_development

[StillInShock]

2010... .thanks for the detailed explanation... .very helpful and valuable information

I have other questions please... .do narcissists have the same stormy relationships as BPDs? jumping from one host to another... .can NPDs maintain a healthy stable relationship?

Do narcissists have abandonment fears or intimacy fears?

My ex-fiance moves from one bed to another before the previous bed has the chance to get cold

He is more NPD than a BPD but I have seen some BPD traits as well ... .and may be even some psychosis and delusions

Thanks

[LightAtTheEndOfTheTunnel]

2010   

You and the other beautiful members are a god send to this board   

Yes Ed ive seen the cycle repeat itself.

Not the in's and out's... but i saw/heard from the BPD's own mouth that my replacement checked his emails and found emails he had sent me and another woman? over the Christmas Period...

I heard first hand from him how he deleted everything so she couldnt find any evidence etc 

From everything he told me i realise that these are all behaviours that he would have done to me and i once upon a time was her.

Ive seen him repeat the cycle - Idealise - Devalue - Discard.

Right now i believe hes trying to chase a new high... a new object to idealise having exhausted my replacement and me ( i had an unfortunate break of NC over Xmas).

We don't need to see the proof... as sure as the sun will rise... will the disorder repeat and play out... .

[sm15000]

In all likelihood, you are dealing with a Narcissist.

Yes, there was definitely a Narcissist in there  ;p   however, i have come to believe that this is his defensive act that has intensified throughout his life - especially with women and relationships - in that as another relationship failed, the more the narcissistic 'mask' became fixed on to protect him from hurt again.  It also comes out in other areas of his life (e.g. work) if he feels unable to cope or his 'true' self is to be exposed as weak and inadequate.  In the end manipulation etc becomes cleverness - in his eyes.

But, i have read your other posts 2010 about you will feel you serve a narcissist. . .this wasn't a feature of my relationship. . .he has talked of feeling 'empty', that 'his heart and soul are famished'. . .and i feel there are strong issues of shame and doubt.

I suppose whatever the 'label' it's a mess in there  ?

[Dub 1]

Fantastic insight into BPD/NPD minds.I am not sure which or maybe both BPD/NPD my xuBPD/NPDw has ? She moved straight in with the new guy as she had to leave my home.Maybe I am cloudy around the facts as she is in a different situation.

She left her kids/family to marry me in my country.I now think I understand why her young adult kids refused to move with her.There lives would have been messed up,yjey knew her much more than I did at the time.When we broke up nearly two years ago she stayed living in our home.We lived nc & I waited to go to court to end r/s.

I think I never knew her & fell for the fantasy she portrayed early on.Now that she is living not far from my house & is engaged to new guy.I do not know how they sre getting on .I also do not know how long she is with him.

So I have no proof she is doing well or she is doing bad.

I do know when she was part of my life it was a nightmare,I will never forget her & all the pain she caused me.

[captainkirkz]

Narcissists are lone wolves as an emotional preventative measure. They are not unhappy about it unless their false self is threatened. The unhappiness they feel is due to objects (people) who do not properly reflect back their glory.

Borderlines are extremely unhappy, fearful and anxious as they are unsure of who they are without others to show them. They seek out a strong self to attach to and then they serve that attachment until persecution woes are triggered.

So, back to my original question.

If BPD and NPD are co-morbid which of the traits will be the stronger?

Does the person with the co-morbidity have an internal conflict between the 2 traits within themselves?

Do people with NPD recycle or are they more linear?

[sm15000]

If BPD and NPD are co-morbid which of the traits will be the stronger?

Does the person with the co-morbidity have an internal conflict between the 2 traits within themselves?

Do people with NPD recycle or are they more linear?

As with all things BPD/NPD i expect this is hard to ascertain    and as a spectrum disorder may vary between individuals.  All i can add is what i observed in my own experience.   I believe the N component in my ex has heightened throughout his life - as he has aged (53 now), perhaps as each relationship fails and to protect in conflict to avoid shame.  I'm not sure if he has an internal conflict (i think maybe yes) but he seems to switch almost to the point of being two different personas - he has said he doesn't remember saying certain things and although this may be a manipulation technique - it's one of the few things i actually believe  

He has attempted to re-cycle since i ended it but to no extreme of some of the cases on here - again i think down to his N aspect - he can't be seen to be that needy.   But i think he is aware of his 'self' usually when he comes out of the episode and perhaps less anxiety etc.  

He is very passive aggressive, acts out to hurt through infidelity - but i think it's a sort of i'll get you before you get me first if he feels threat of abandonment - which is a protection from previous hurts.  In this mode though i think he does look for women to subsume. . .and adore him - and totally objectifies them and i think it goes together with an increase in the use of pornography and god knows what else!

At the end there was a lot of push/pull - still making out he wanted the relationship but as i told him and others close to me "It's like he wants me to end it and can't do it himself because he doesn't want to be the bad guy" - i couldn't work it out  ;p  At least posting here has helped me do this

But underneath there is definitely self-loathing, doubt, mistrust, lack of worth, shame and he once said to me "without you my world is a very dark place" - i think this smacks of mirroring?

[Confused69]

    thanks for all the replys from everyone.  In a way i want to see her self destruct but I think its just best that i let go and move on.  It shouldnt matter if i see it or not, should it?   Ive seen what she did to her previous husband and how she drove him to try and commit suicide. She would tell me how the walls in their house would have holes from him and his abusive ways.  After living with her for a few months and even now 7 yrs later, i know it was her that destroyed the home just like she destroyed her marriage.  Sad to know that she will continue to repeat this behavior.  Shes gonna hurt alot more good men in her lifetime i believe. 

[JonnyJon42]

my BPD ex made me mad enough to punch holes in walls a few times so im sure it was him but he had good reason

[Suzn]

You are right Ed, it shouldnt matter. Just remember you're only human and one that was mistreated and hurt. Its perfectly normal to feel the way you do right now. Cut yourself a break, your feelings will likely change over time. 

[hijodeganas]

2010. In 6 weeks of reading articles on this site, that last post has to be the ultimate. It explains the whole dynamic to me in perfect detail. It rings so true.

Thanks very much! 

Thought the exact same thing after reading it. So much makes so much more sense now. Wow. Boy am I glad I got out now.