Was your BPD right about you?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I started to write my goodbye letter that would never be sent to her and without thinking about what to say, the first line that came out was; why did you spend so much time reconstructing me and then leave when I had become such a better person? 

After I typed it I was taken aback that those words came out of me.  It was the first time that I had ever said that and it so accurately captured my high degree of confusion about her leaving and no longer wanting anything to do with me.

She really invested a tremendous amount of effort in helping me become a much better person.  And although I hated the way she treated me, I have to say that much of what she said was right.  It really changed my life and I thought reflected how deeply she cared for me.  But her constant berating of me also caused me to lash back at her or dig my heels in.

Putting all my hurt feelings aside; I have asked myself on multiple occasions to take her perspective about what she was saying.  Now that I am 5 months NC I have to say that I am finding that she was actually spot on about most of the major life stuff that upset her about me.  Not that I was doing crazy things, but just not doing the best I could do for myself.

This reflection has been bringing up a lot of feelings trying to reconcile how she could leave/discard without a trace of feeling and me feeling foolish for having fought back so much.

I have also pondered if her astute ability to correctly analyze me and my choices was an overcompensation of her underdeveloped areas or even a projection of what she wanted for herself - control over someone else because she could not seem to exercise the same for her emotional self.  I suppose there was a narcissistic thing going on with her that made her feel better than me too.

I have been feeling alone and subsequently not happy with myself for not having been more receptive to her words.  Yet still, I don't believe that having been so would have made a difference to her.  I think she picked me because I was fixable - a compliment to me in a way - but not that she wanted to permanently stay with whatever the finished product was that she created.

I loved her and what she did for me but hated the way she abused me.  It is all still really confusing at times and I just wished for a much simpler life and sometimes wish that she is struggling as much or more than I am - even while knowing that she has no clue how her actions impacted us - but she was so right and BPD.

[joeramabeme]

I started to write my goodbye letter that would never be sent to her and without thinking about what to say, the first line that came out was; why did you spend so much time reconstructing me and then leave when I had become such a better person? 

After I typed it I was taken aback that those words came out of me.  It was the first time that I had ever said that and it so accurately captured my high degree of confusion about her leaving and no longer wanting anything to do with me.

She really invested a tremendous amount of effort in helping me become a much better person.  And although I hated the way she treated me, I have to say that much of what she said was right.  It really changed my life and I thought reflected how deeply she cared for me.  But her constant berating of me also caused me to lash back at her or dig my heels in.

Putting all my hurt feelings aside; I have asked myself on multiple occasions to take her perspective about what she was saying.  Now that I am 5 months NC I have to say that I am finding that she was actually spot on about most of the major life stuff that upset her about me.  Not that I was doing crazy things, but just not doing the best I could do for myself.

This reflection has been bringing up a lot of feelings trying to reconcile how she could leave/discard without a trace of feeling and me feeling foolish for having fought back so much.

I have also pondered if her astute ability to correctly analyze me and my choices was an overcompensation of her underdeveloped areas or even a projection of what she wanted for herself - control over someone else because she could not seem to exercise the same for her emotional self.  I suppose there was a narcissistic thing going on with her that made her feel better than me too.

I have been feeling alone and subsequently not happy with myself for not having been more receptive to her words.  Yet still, I don't believe that having been so would have made a difference to her.  I think she picked me because I was fixable - a compliment to me in a way - but not that she wanted to permanently stay with whatever the finished product was that she created.

I loved her and what she did for me but hated the way she abused me.  It is all still really confusing at times and I just wished for a much simpler life and sometimes wish that she is struggling as much or more than I am - even while knowing that she has no clue how her actions impacted us - but she was so right and BPD.

[fromheeltoheal]

She really invested a tremendous amount of effort in helping me become a much better person.  And although I hated the way she treated me, I have to say that much of what she said was right.  It really changed my life... .

Now that I am 5 months NC I have to say that I am finding that she was actually spot on about most of the major life stuff that upset her about me. 

So there are some of the gifts of the relationship joe.  Let go of the abuse, keep the gifts, take what you need and can use, leave the rest.  What if everything happens for a reason and it serves us?

I have also pondered if her astute ability to correctly analyze me and my choices was an overcompensation of her underdeveloped areas or even a projection of what she wanted for herself - control over someone else because she could not seem to exercise the same for her emotional self.  I suppose there was a narcissistic thing going on with her that made her feel better than me too.

Borderlines need to attach to survive, and to emotionally attach to someone at a deep, secure level, they need to get good at reading people and discovering their deepest needs, what's missing, whatever it is, and then meeting those needs with mirroring, projection, all the tools; it's skill borne out of necessity.  I think borderlines would make great poker players with that skill.

And it works, as evidenced by the obsession to get back to that long after the relationship ends that most of us experience.  And BPD is a shame-based disorder and borderlines have a very low opinion of themselves, so one way to deal with that is act superior in the face of feelings of inferiority to compensate, narcissistic traits on top of the BPD.  And borderlines aren't the only ones who act superior because they feel inferior, that mindset is pretty rampant, it's a survival skill after all.

[FallBack!Monster]

To  respond to the title of the post, yes. She use to say that I was spoiled. I am. I like being spoiled. I also like to reciprocate that treatment. I spoiled her, and got her butt to kiss in return.

She also said, why if I knew/thought those things about her why even bother with her. She was correct about that too.

why did you spend so much time reconstructing me and then leave when I had become such a better person? 

What do you mean? What did she do to "reconstruct you/ Help you become a better person/Changed your life?





 

[rfriesen]

And although I hated the way she treated me, I have to say that much of what she said was right.  It really changed my life and I thought reflected how deeply she cared for me.  

Joe,
Everything you write fits how I feel about my ex and your post is brilliantly insightful. Yes, my ex also had an absolutely uncanny ability to read me and to sense where I needed to improve, to work on myself, and she knew how to push my buttons to make me actually start doing the work. Sadly, as you describe with your relationship, this was often accompanied by rubbing my face in it or attacking me for shortcomings, piling on feelings of guilt and shame.

What hurt so much at the end, when I decided I had to push back and start asking for her to work on herself too, especially how abusive she could be when upset, was how flippant she was about not being willing to make an effort. After months of her begging me to move in with her and give things "an honest try", I started really pushing on what she felt she needed to do differently, the ways she needed to change to make things work. She told me she simply couldn't be bothered to reflect on her own behaviour, that she was "too tired" at the end of the day for introspection, that it hurt too much. I mean, I suppose that was honest of her and I suppose it really does hurt her a lot to try reflecting on her own behaviour. But it was painful for me too, especially with the abuse she could heap on, and I did try hard. And now it still hurts to think of the almost shrugging way she said she couldn't be bothered to try herself -- after she had pushed me to tear my own psyche to pieces trying to improve myself.

Well, as fromheeltoheal says, that pain will slowly fade over time and we can work to hold onto the gifts of the relationship while letting go of the abuse.

[Infern0]

Yes she was right about a lot of things. Many times the truth stung so I called it "abuse" But actually she was just being extremely honest without any fear of hurting my feelings.

After a few months of NC I realized this and it lead to a lot of positive changes.

It's hard to figure all this out when you are still involved or if you choose to remain bitter.

I'd say in almost all these relationships it's give and take more than we realize or care to admit even to ourselves.

[FallBack!Monster]

The truth stung so I called it "abuse" But actually she was just being extremely honest without any fear of hurting my feelings.

Infer,
Sometimes it is impossible to be honest w/o hurting sometimes feelings.  Still, I wish that woman would have taken a chance to see how I'd react to it.

[Leonis]

I would still be careful about this "constructive" critique. It's not atypical to be framed in a picture where your supposedly "flaw" is based on a molehill.

None of us are perfect, but there's nothing wrong with not being the perfect significant other 100% of the time. We are humans. There are times when we don't function at maximum.

From my experience, it didn't matter that I tried to appease her. My ex made up her mind that she was a burden to me and that I never really cared about her. Did I do things wrong to lead up to the way it is today? Yes. In her eyes. Were the things I didn't do correctly major deal breakers in most normal relationships? Hell no.

All I can say is, if you treated someone normal with the same effort you had to put up with your BPD ex, that person probably has found the equivalent of gold in companions.

[drained1996]

Was my exBPD right about a lot of things I needed to do to work on myself... .sure.  Why did I need to work on myself so much?  Because I had endured her torment for so long that my weaknesses were magnified to the nth degree.  In the overall scheme of life, yes, she brought about my own acknowledgement of my weaknesses and I worked on them.  I'm going to be a better person for the rest of my life because of the hell I went through with her.  My next partner can thank her... .but for me, I gave more than I got from her, so no, the credit does not belong in her court.  That credit belongs to me for facing my issues and dealing with them head on.  A credit she has no right to claim.  And she certainly has not taken what she learned to better her own hell for her nor her children.  Yes, we can learn from our experiences, as we should in anything, but let's not go out of our way to give too much credit to the illness that has ripped the very souls from our body.  The credit for our improvement in life... .belongs to us.  

[rfriesen]

Ha, I hear you Leonis and drained! But all I'm saying is I'm not too worried about credit one way or another at this point. What do I care where credit goes? Who's keeping score at this stage? In any case, I feel perfectly confident in saying that I was generally patient and kind and made a huge effort with my ex, while she often raged and insulted and attacked me. I never yelled at her or tried to put her down, in spite of tremendous provocation. And I'm quite proud of that.

For me, accepting that my ex made woke me up to ways I tended to become withdrawn or overly avoidant of conflict, or whatever, isn't about giving or taking credit for the work I then put in to actually change. Speaking just for my relationship, I do think my ex was incredibly perceptive and would call me out if I was being evasive or withdrawn. I sure don't think it warranted her explosions, and really she might have reflected on the fact that I was often withdrawn/evasive precisely because I was trying to avoid her explosive temper. Her approach sure isn't constructive for her, because she drives people away.

That said, I can recognise her perceptiveness without at the same time excusing the use she made of it. And I think I can even be grateful to her without excusing or justifying her abusive behaviour. Those things can be separated. And I am grateful for learning the importance of stating clearly where I stand on certain things and drawing the boundaries I need, even if it triggers a certain degree of confrontation in the short term.

[drained1996]

ok Rfriesen,

You made me bite on the bait.  If our partners had been non's... .would we be ok?  We're both sensitive guys I know... .I think with non BPD partners neither of us would be here having suffered through hell.  In fact, with a good non, we may never have suffered at all and lived happily ever after... .though we didn't.  Thus we are here, and there is a reason we are here, and that is our BPD's.  We take from our experiences and learn.  I've learned a lot from my experience with 2 BPD's, but the credit of what I have learned does not belong to them.  That's mine... .and what you have learned... .that's yours.  Don't be so quick to credit our exBPD's with our improvements.  It is in fact the illness we can credit for our acknowledgement of our shortcomings... .not the individual.  They are the illness, and our reaction is really to the illness, not the individual. 

[rfriesen]

drained,
This is really something I've been puzzling over the last couple of weeks or so. I think, yes, if my ex had been more patient and self-reflective and ready to work on herself and the relationship as I worked on myself and the relationship ... .then we might have lived happily ever after, though perhaps not with any of that manic intensity we experienced. I have a little bit of trouble picturing what it would be like because that insane intensity defined so much of our relationship. But, basically, yes I agree with you. If she had been ready to give as much as I was, I think everything would have unfolded much more happily.

Now, instead of that stable longterm relationship that might have seen us through the ups and downs of life, I've been going through this sometimes agonising process of questioning pretty much everything about what I want from relationships and life and where I want to devote my daily energies and even my own sense of self-identity and how it's been shaped up to this point in my life. Drives me a little loony at times, for sure!

BUT, and here's the weird part. Lately, I honestly can't decide which way I think is better. This crushing experience with my ex has made life much more painful and confusing and downright weird, at least this whole stage I'm going through now. But also richer. Life seems a lot deeper and stranger and richer and more mysterious to me these days, as well as more painful. Would I trade all this for a better relationship with my ex? One that went on happily-ever-after, but where I never get this painful slap in the face and wake-up call in life?

Maybe this is a sign that the whole recovery process has made me a touch insane, but I don't think I would trade this pain and richness for a happy ending with my ex, even a kinder version of my ex. I mean, I get what you're saying -- even if I'm grateful for this experience, that doesn't mean I have to praise my ex for it. I think I do absolutely get what you're saying there. But I'm not sure I see the point in assigning credit. I suppose I do feel I've worked hard to stick with this process and not try to run away from the pain or insight it's brought. So, in that sense, yes maybe I can see the value of giving myself credit for that work. You've talked me around to it. I don't mind also recognising that my ex has a gift for reading people and that she triggered the work I've put in. But I don't think we're really disagreeing about anything there. What do you think?

[drained1996]

rfriesen,

We were basically accused of crimes we did not commit and thrown in prison with no trial by our ex's.  Hell dominated our lives as we had no freaking idea what was transpiring.  That was the illness... .
We faced a choice, and that choice was to begin to look after ourselves or be drug down the same path until whenever arrived.  We chose us... .we chose to look out for our own health and well being.  The OP's question was whether or not my BPD was right about me?  Right?... .no, before I was still the same wonderful loving person I find inside of me today.  Did dealing with the illness and subsequently my own recovery from having to deal with having my soul ripped from my chest slowly cause me to be introspective?  Sure, it most certainly did.  Is my life going to be better because of this horrific experience?  Yes.  Am I going to be better not only for me, but for any partner that joins me in this journey... .hell yes.  Am I going to give my BPD credit... .hell no.  We CAN learn from each experience we have in life, but that choice on whether or not to learn is up to us, and us alone.  What we are learning is self defense, we are arming ourselves with knowledge so we do not go down this same road again.  Does it also cause us to dig deep within ourselves to find out how we actually got here?... .of course... .but I'm doing that work, you're doing that work.  Were we sorry pieces of sh$t before our BPD's?  I know not!  But they certainly suggested that many times!  So no, my answer is my BPD was not right about me... .really not ever... .I was never that knight in shining armor... .nor was I the miserable dirt underneath her feet. 
I'm me, always have been, I've just chosen to take a horrific experience and learn how to better myself in life.  That's all ME!  I could've fallen off a billboard and almost died and had the same kind of epiphany... .so no, my BPD gets no credit... .who I am belongs to me, I'll take that credit!

[once removed]

hi joe,

when a relationship is built on these kinds of dynamics, one partner "fixing" another, or "saving" another, or even something totally unrelated like two vengeful people getting together, once the partner is "fixed" or "saved", it begs the question "now what?".

the change in you may also have been scary to her. it may have raised insecurity about herself. it may have prompted her to look at the things in her that needed work, that perhaps she was avoiding.

I have also pondered if her astute ability to correctly analyze me and my choices was an overcompensation of her underdeveloped areas or even a projection of what she wanted for herself - control over someone else because she could not seem to exercise the same for her emotional self.  I suppose there was a narcissistic thing going on with her that made her feel better than me too.

thats probably pretty accurate, speaking as someone that can relate. im one of those people that spent a lot of my life giving good advice to others, but making terrible decisions myself. i think we all do this on some level. its why sometimes we feel impatient or intolerant of a weakness we perceive in another - because on some level we see it in ourselves.

am i correct in sensing both some anger and some resolve within your revelation?

[StayStrongNow]

good at reading people and discovering their deepest needs, what's missing, whatever it is, and then meeting those needs with mirroring, projection, all the tools; it's skill borne out of necessity.

Joe, thank you for starting this post. I appreciated you sharing your experience. I can definitely relate to what you said. I agree now looking back and seeing her seemingly genius side and conversely her childish side. Also thank you all you contributors for your posts too.

In addition to what you mention about her having insights to making you a better person, that genius would come out in projecting and convincing others how black my stbxBPDw thought I was. Amazing how she can convince the police, lawyers, pastors, friends, her family, try my family etc of her view of past events, a re-writing of history even when police reports, affidavits, witness accounts, etc state otherwise.

This is just so amazing to me how they can vacillate between genius and imbecile.

[william3693]

Hello Joe,

Although this does not answer directly to your question;I have read that the
more difficult a person is to be with in a relationship the more you can learn about your
self from that relationship.How do we get self knowledge? Have also read that you can
teach knowledge but you cannot teach wisdom.I think we can all see traits in others that
they are blind to themselves.

[pjstock42]

It seems like I'm the first one to have this viewpoint but no, my BPD wasn't right about me at all. When I got the email after the discard where she painted me to black, I was amazed at how little this person who I had spent so much time with really knew about the person that I am. I think that all of the things she portrayed me to be were actually manifestations/projections of her own weaknesses / poor qualities and she was very right about those. For example, she accused me of being "too superficial" and "caring too much about what other people think". This coming from a person who on most days could not leave the house without caking on a ton of makeup and changing her outfit 2/3 times... .

The other things that she accused me of were wildly inaccurate and simply overblown assumptions that had no basis in reality. When I talked to the people closest to me after reading that email, they were all shocked to hear that someone would paint me in such a light and all of them said that they know none of these things to be true about me. This provided me with a little bit of sanity because upon reading her accusations, I definitely had some self-doubt and wondered if I really was this person even though I knew deep down that the person she was describing sounded nothing like me. It's funny because in her attempt to paint me black and make me realize all of these terrible things about myself, she actually created a very clear image of the person that she really is. Had I not taken the time to study projection and the 'painting to black' process, I probably would have handled these accusations much differently and tried to argue with her to prove that I wasn't all of the things that she said I was. Rather than getting in a fight with her, I simply responded by saying that I was sorry she wasted so much time on someone who is clearly a such a bad person and I left it at that.

[rfriesen]

Joe,
I think you've really kicked off a great discussion! Reading your original post, what I took from it is that my ex certainly perceived parts of me more clearly than anyone ever has. If not for that, the connection wouldn't have been so powerful. Many people here seem to felt understood by their ex on a deeper level than they had ever experienced before. I know that was true for me. And what hurt so much when things turned ugly in my relationship, was that my ex knew how to use that insight to hit below the belt and basically to find my weak spots, to pinpoint exactly what she could make me feel guilty about. So she hit on something there. Was she right to accuse me of cheating? No, that was projection on her part. Was she right to say I was selfish and didn't care? No, that was her fear and pain speaking. She could paint me black in ways that I believe were completely distorted.

But it would be strange to say that our exes didn't read us on a deep level. If they didn't have such insight into us (even if distorted and false when painting black), how did we end up here? How did they have such an effect on us? My ex understood me well enough to fulfill needs and desires so powerfully that I looked past serious red flags and put up with a lot once things turned bad. And she hit on feelings of guilt like I've never experienced before. What I do with that experience and what I make of myself are up to me. But I can't deny she saw deep into me. Was she right about me in some global sense? I don't think so. But was she right in sensing things that I didn't like about myself? Absolutely. But that's just my experience and we've all been through our own unique paths

[myself]

It was also easier for them to 'see' us because we were so open with them.

[joeramabeme]

Wow!  Thanks everyone for the input.  So glad to know that others have struggled with the same question.

Reading through the entire thread I have some additional thoughts.  Will come back later and address some things individually but to generally address some points.

First regarding the discussion of whether or not my ex BPD or myself deserve the credit; not to be flippant, but I did  the work.  But more important to me is that the framework of the question leads to something different.  I did not get married to or for the purpose of self improvement; I got married to spend my life with someone I loved and labored for that inside the institution of marriage.  I don't care who gets the credit as long as the desired outcome is reached.  Clearly it was not the same framework for her.

H2H, as far as all this being a "gift"; I understand what you are saying but do not feel that way.   I am grateful to have learned new ways of being and having release from some places that I was stuck.  But as Drained mentioned, I really was a good person to begin with - flaws and all.  Now that it is over, in some ways I am totally different and in other ways just the same.  Either way, none of this determines whether I would be free to have a successful relationship.  In that regard, this was just spinning my wheels around - I somewhat see it as winning the lottery and being stranded on a desert island; doesn't really matter.

All this does tell me one other important point about me; that I did not see all this about myself prior to this relationship and now would never allow someone to so entirely dismantle me under the guise of marriage or anything else.  I am sure that she knew exactly what she was doing with this emotional re-engineering of me - pretty pathetic that she finds herself getting off on it and truthfully makes me bitter about her.  Once Removed, yes - partial resolve partial anger.

I find these deeper questions take longer to think through and get it all sorted out.  Takes a lot longer than I thought it would and seems that it is like an onion - so many layers and you have to cry while peeling it.

Will write more when I have more time.

Thanks, JRB

[fromheeltoheal]

this was just spinning my wheels around - I somewhat see it as winning the lottery and being stranded on a desert island; doesn't really matter.

Nice joe!  Getting to a place of indifference works, and is healthy detachment.

For those who are stuck and see everything about the relationship as bad, digging a little to find a gift, something good, something they can take with them as they detach and create the life of their dreams, can help.  There is no right way to detach, only the ways that work.

[joeramabeme]

For those who are stuck and see everything about the relationship as bad, digging a little to find a gift, something good, something they can take with them as they detach and create the life of their dreams, can help.  There is no right way to detach, only the ways that work.

Thanks H2H, not sure I feel indifferent either - honestly even after a year on this site I am still sorting it all out and have started to accept that there is a place at which I will accept what I know and leave the rest of later or never.

But to your point, yes, all this understanding and discussion leads to places that I can pass along the highway of wherever it is I am headed towards.

Thanks!

[joeramabeme]

What hurt so much at the end, when I decided I had to push back and start asking for her to work on herself too, especially how abusive she could be when upset, was how flippant she was about not being willing to make an effort.

Hi rfriesen, not sure if this will help at all but my ex was in therapy 7 years before we met and stayed with it during 11 years of marriage and still continues to this day.  So, she had looked at some of her stuff but the therapist she is working with, who eventually became our marital T and each of our individual T, would never agree to words like "abuse", "gaslighting" and "emotional manipulation".  She poo-pooed it all the way.  Of course my ex insisted that this was the person we work with - clearly she had her duped. 

So even being in therapy and "working on herself" is not necessarily the answer.

Here is a little more of what I thought about while making a long ride home this afternoon.  When I first met my ex she was loaded with anxiety.  For example, imagined she was being strangled and kept going to the doctor to check it out.  In replaying how I went from a guy who she relied upon and shared with to an object of her fears; I realized today that at some point she stopped sharing all those anxieties with me and simply transferred them onto marital topics; money was the big one.

Once we got hung up on money it all started going down the drain.  So as it relates to pushing back and having her do some work, in her mind, she was.  Of course by the time I could verbally construct something that began to confine the discussion to objective reality, we started getting on the merry go round of pointless arguments that never had an ending.

Sadly it really is a no win situation.  No amount of self-improvement on our part would have changed the outcome because the issue never was about that to begin with.  She transferred all her anxiety to me and I willingly accepted it.  Since she and I talked about our difficult childhoods pre-marriage I thought she had an understanding of it all - and she did - but not some of the most important stuff about herself - I still blame the T for that.

JRB

[kc sunshine]

I think my ex was right about some things about me (except the wildly wrong accusations of me being interested in other people), but was wrong about her negative interpretations of them. I think some things that she thought were negatives, are actually pretty good or at least pretty understandable things. Also some things were just self-fulfilling negative prophecies.

This isn't to say that I don't have a lot to work on-- I do!

[joeramabeme]

We were basically accused of crimes we did not commit and thrown in prison with no trial by our ex's.

Hey drained - Following everything you said here and agree with much of it. 

I want to elaborate some on this point because there is so much pain with it.  To me the crime I committed was being born into a home with (what I now believe was) a DSM-certifiable BPD mom.  I make this point for 2 reasons.  There is so much pain on this point and all I can get to is; too bad for you Joe, you got these cards dealt to you and it could be worst - lift up your chin and move on. 

Second, how could I have not but gravitated to an experience that reenacted all this to help me realize that all the trauma based terror that I carried inside of me was coming from this type of experience.  I had to go through it all over again or stay stuck in the half-life of confusion I had been living for too many years before I met her.

When I can be more objective - which is only some of the time - it really isn't the hell my ex constructed - I was already in a numbed out form of it all along.  She/We just replicated those events of early life and that has lead me to a bigger understanding. 

Will this lead to something better for me?  Honestly, I don't know and a big part of me doubts it.  As you pointed out - I was a good guy then and still am today.  In my case I am older and so much time has run off the clock that my life dreams are just about officially out of reach. 

In summary, in an objective way, my hell was created long before I ever met my ex.  I thought our marriage was release from it, and in some ways, it was and in other ways, not at all. 

Not sure of the same is true for you.

JRB

[joeramabeme]

the change in you may also have been scary to her. it may have raised insecurity about herself. it may have prompted her to look at the things in her that needed work, that perhaps she was avoiding.

am i correct in sensing both some anger and some resolve within your revelation?

Hi OR

Yes, I am sure that my trauma recovery sessions provided a much greater contrast to the guy that she met years earlier and perhaps scared her.  From someone that she was fully in control of to someone that she eventually saw standing up to her. 

Also yes, anger/resolve.  I think this is progress for me.  Each time a piece snaps into place I feel a little more secure about who I was and who I was not in the context of my marriage and her verbal picture frame of me.

Dare I say that I have even started to have brief moments of "I would never have her back".   

[jhkbuzz]

BUT, and here's the weird part. Lately, I honestly can't decide which way I think is better. This crushing experience with my ex has made life much more painful and confusing and downright weird, at least this whole stage I'm going through now. But also richer. Life seems a lot deeper and stranger and richer and more mysterious to me these days, as well as more painful. Would I trade all this for a better relationship with my ex? One that went on happily-ever-after, but where I never get this painful slap in the face and wake-up call in life?

Maybe this is a sign that the whole recovery process has made me a touch insane, but I don't think I would trade this pain and richness for a happy ending with my ex, even a kinder version of my ex.

I know exactly what you mean. Last week my therapist said, "The end of this relationship really blew open a door for you." Blew it open is right - but I'm not sorry about it. I've also been thinking lately what my life would be like if the r/s hadn't fallen apart and I was still in it - and it actually gives me the jitters. I think it's because I'd have to give up everything I've learned about myself in the past two years - and all the ways I've grown. I don't think the trade-off wouldn't be worth it.

[drained1996]

"To me the crime I committed was being born into a home with (what I now believe was) a DSM-certifiable BPD mom."

Joe, that is not a crime you committed, it's a circumstance you had no control over whatsoever.  I feel I'm in the same boat as I'm fairly certain my mother has always suffered from some PD.  With the passing of my father the glue that so long held together the "function" of my family is gone.  It's much easier to see the cracks in the foundation of the relationship me and my siblings have with my mother. 
Yes, do I believe my childhood experiences made me more apt to be attracted to a BPD... .sure... .
Like you I'm no spring chicken, and yes, some previous dreams may no longer be realistic.  One thing I know, I will be happy one day.  Though I may have to recalculate some of my dreams, happiness is the only one that really counts for me. 
We can have that Joe... .the illness will not take that dream from me!

[once removed]

Dare I say that I have even started to have brief moments of "I would never have her back".   

that certainly does sound like progress to me! it took me quite a while to get that far. its pretty difficult to backtrack from that conviction.

i wanted to address a few points from your other posts:

So, she had looked at some of her stuff but the therapist she is working with, who eventually became our marital T and each of our individual T, would never agree to words like "abuse", "gaslighting" and "emotional manipulation".  She poo-pooed it all the way.  Of course my ex insisted that this was the person we work with - clearly she had her duped. 

without having been privy to these sessions, or your marriage, i wonder - was the therapist duped, or did you feel invalidated? words like "abuse" and "emotional manipulation" are accusations (however accurate) and its difficult to get to a place of mutual understanding, in a marital therapy context with them. you wont find "gaslighting" in clinical literature, or clinical BPD literature. its a pop psych term that gets thrown around, its origin is a play from the 1930s, and the concept is someone manipulating us into doubting our sanity. debateable whether someone can manipulate us into doubting our sanity, and also not characteristic of an impulse disorder. it too, would be an accusation and not necessarily productive in marital therapy. more importantly, the therapist could never have made your partner address the deeper issues if your partner was not willing to face them.

I realized today that at some point she stopped sharing all those anxieties with me and simply transferred them onto marital topics; money was the big one.

as someone living with anxiety, i know its very difficult for a loved one to live with and can cause plenty of problems in a marriage. arguments about money are also a very common marriage killer - i think ive read its the number one thing married couples argue about.

as i read through your posts, i see two people with childhood wounds that in part bonded based on those wounds. one of you (her) pulled away from that dynamic and became less understanding, shifting her focus, moving the goal post, and directing her efforts at trying to fix you. one of you (you) did the work, the effort to change, and grew impatient with the others perceived lack of effort to address what were seen as the real issues - directing some of your efforts there. it sounds as if neither of you felt heard. it is difficult to recover from that stage.

Second, how could I have not but gravitated to an experience that reenacted all this to help me realize that all the trauma based terror that I carried inside of me was coming from this type of experience. I had to go through it all over again or stay stuck in the half-life of confusion I had been living for too many years before I met her.

... .

it really isn't the hell my ex constructed - I was already in a numbed out form of it all along.  She/We just replicated those events of early life and that has lead me to a bigger understanding. 

i think this is partly the "gift" being referred to. no, it doesnt feel that way at the time, and it may never. in my case, i engaged in whats referred to as a "repetition compulsion", seeking out similar partners with similar issues, avoiding healthy partners and true intimacy (id have thought you were crazy if you told me i was avoiding intimacy at the time). in many ways, my relationship and its ending with my uBPDex was hitting bottom and being forced to see myself as the common denominator and face my issues. maybe there was another way, maybe i would have learned otherwise. similarly to you, i dont really think so. maybe its magical thinking but i think my relationship and its ending were necessary for my own inner peace and future success.

hang in there and give it time. it really hasnt been that long, and youve done great work already. im still learning lessons over five years later. this becomes much easier, and much more noticeable, when we have fully grieved the relationship.

[joeramabeme]

Once Removed

Thanks for all this insight.  You get it.  So I would like to ask a few questions as I don't think I have it yet.

you wont find "gaslighting" in clinical literature, or clinical BPD literature. its a pop psych term that gets thrown around, its origin is a play from the 1930s, and the concept is someone manipulating us into doubting our sanity. debateable whether someone can manipulate us into doubting our sanity, and also not characteristic of an impulse disorder.

Interesting point about gaslighting and the literature; I was not aware of that and it is good to know.  I did meet 2 therapists who were totally familiar with the term.  I don't think my ex made me doubt my sanity but certainly made me guess about what I said and what she said and if things were ever said at all - not sure if there is a formal term for that.

the therapist could never have made your partner address the deeper issues if your partner was not willing to face them.

I don't want to agree to this point but you are right and the T said EXACTLY this to me on multiple occasions. 

as i read through your posts, i see two people with childhood wounds that in part bonded based on those wounds. one of you (her) pulled away from that dynamic and became less understanding, shifting her focus, moving the goal post, and directing her efforts at trying to fix you. one of you (you) did the work, the effort to change, and grew impatient with the others perceived lack of effort to address what were seen as the real issues - directing some of your efforts there. it sounds as if neither of you felt heard. it is difficult to recover from that stage.

Yes, Yes, Yes.  But I never understood what she didn't hear.  I could use a little clarity on your insights re: moving the goal post, pulled away and shifting focus.  This does not sound so BPD but confusing as all heck to me.  What did she want me to hear?  My ask was simple, please be present about the verbal abuse stuff.  I did ask the T what was it that my ex wanted and she said "safety at any and all costs"; did my actions make her feel unsafe and unheard because of what I was asking for?

i think this is partly the "gift" being referred to. no, it doesnt feel that way at the time, and it may never. in my case, i engaged in whats referred to as a "repetition compulsion", seeking out similar partners with similar issues, avoiding healthy partners and true intimacy (id have thought you were crazy if you told me i was avoiding intimacy at the time). in many ways, my relationship and its ending with my uBPDex was hitting bottom and being forced to see myself as the common denominator and face my issues. maybe there was another way, maybe i would have learned otherwise. similarly to you, i dont really think so. maybe its magical thinking but i think my relationship and its ending were necessary for my own inner peace and future success.

Repetition Compulsion has come up in another session for me.  Perhaps.  I know it was true in my younger days.  As an interesting side note to this; before I met my now ex wife I had shared a lot of dating stories with a friend and told her how unfulfilled I felt.  She asked me, then why do you keep dating women that you know you don't want a long term r/s with?  Hit me like a ton of lead.  Which made me change course and then lead me to be more open and a relationship with my now ex.

this becomes much easier, and much more noticeable, when we have fully grieved the relationship.

Here's hoping!
Thank you.

[woundedPhoenix]

Hey All,

Reading through this thread has brought out some sort of an ephiphany in me.

My ex was right about me in some ways, in that deep down some unfaced childhood issues were present inside of me.
And they caused all sorts of avoidance. And made me heavily co-dependant.

The slowly developing nightmare that i went through the last years of the r/s brought this wounded inner child to the foreground,
as it was basically being attacked, neglected; pushed and pulled; devalued and discarded to the core.

It was in utter pain, hiding away, supressing its emotions and blaming itself on top.
After the breakup I was constantly going over the r/s like it was computercode and i had to find the bug, where did it go wrong exactly?

But now i realise, the relationship and breakup itself was one long process to finally get that wounded child exposed,
so that i finally could attend to healing it, rescue myself instead of projecting my need to be rescued on someone else and stop avoiding self confrontation.


The irony is though, that my Ex focused on exposing and condemning my shortcomings, so she could easily stay in avoidance of her own issues.
These days she pretty much is in a narcistic coping state, totally oblivious of all her own issues or even spinning them for her own advantage
as her victim mentality prevents her from seeing her own light, and what really played between us.

[once removed]

I don't think my ex made me doubt my sanity but certainly made me guess about what I said and what she said and if things were ever said at all - not sure if there is a formal term for that.

oh sure, as did mine. ill give you two (hopefully quick) examples that i learned from.

1. i forget the details but we were fighting and in a circular argument. i was deliberately invalidating all over the place. eventually she began to calm down and see things from my perspective, but she kept insisting "but i feel that way". "maybe youre right but i feel that way". im not sure what i said to that but it was probably just more invalidation explaining that if it didnt happen she had no reason to feel that way.

2. another circular argument, this time over different perceptions of something that occurred. she was insistent upon hers, i was insistent upon mine. only in this case, she couldnt tolerate me having another perception. shed get angrier and angrier telling me her version WAS what happened. i was a bit more level headed in this one. i told her we had two different versions of events and she was entitled to hers, i was entitled to mine, and she could get as angry as she wanted, but mine wasnt going to change. she didnt like that (ultimately i was invalidating, and it probably came off like "nyah nyah".)

its a nice metaphor for my relationship, and the second example is the kind often referred to as gaslighting. really all it was was feelings equaling fact to her, and an argument over two different versions of events. usually youll see gaslighting used in websites about "abusers" and "psychopaths", as a malicious, deliberate behavior that somehow theyve all learned how to do. youll see blogs with lists like "if your partner does these 10 things RUN" and it will be on there. at some point, any fight about different perceptions is "gaslighting" and cause to "run". in fairness, youll even see it in articles on psychology today.

is there a formal term for it? does there need to be? my second example (would help if i remembered details) provides someone with a clearer breakdown of what happened and it can be walked through, explored. you dont get much of a picture if i just tell you "my ex was gaslighting me". when i have walked examples through with other members, its usually a fight over two different perceptions of events. sure, one perspective may be distorted in many cases, though probably not always; communication breaks down in these relationships, and both parties stop hearing each other. and im sure there are literally examples where the ex said the non was crazy for their version of events, but you might call someone getting angry at you for not believing the sky is green crazy too. i did. was i gaslighting her?

the difference is subtle, but very important in terms of a balanced understanding.

I don't want to agree to this point but you are right and the T said EXACTLY this to me on multiple occasions.  

the good news is that right now, you dont have to agree. if you want to blame the therapist right now, blame the therapist right now. i probably would. i never met my exes psychiatrist and i thought after the breakup that he was either an idiot or an enabler. chances are he knew exactly what he was doing; hed known my ex for most of her life and knew her issues.

truth is, we work on what we acknowledge, want to work on, and change. we arent very prone to going to therapy to discuss what someone tells us are our issues. sometimes a therapist can nudge us in that direction. sometimes we arent ready. its also possible that the therapist had a different perspective of what the big issues were.

Yes, Yes, Yes.  But I never understood what she didn't hear.  I could use a little clarity on your insights re: moving the goal post, pulled away and shifting focus.  This does not sound so BPD but confusing as all heck to me.  What did she want me to hear?  My ask was simple, please be present about the verbal abuse stuff.  I did ask the T what was it that my ex wanted and she said "safety at any and all costs"; did my actions make her feel unsafe and unheard because of what I was asking for?

did your actions make her feel unsafe and unheard because of what you were asking for? very possible. id need examples and details.

that bit of insight from the therapist sounds pretty dead on; she was hearing, and reading between the lines which is much easier to do without the attachment and hurt; also probably easier for your ex to articulate without the attachment and hurt. money in this case might be one representation of safety. the initial bond over childhood wounds and your understanding may have been one representation of safety. its an impossible burden for one person to provide, of course, though hearing and validating that fear/need is a start.

what i see on many levels is two people trying to change each other, an extremely common dynamic in relationships. i think you were obviously more clear and direct about identifying what you wanted to change. for her it was more subtle, and fleeting, not well articulated and hard to nail down, and based on feelings, feelings prone to changing. it sounds like initially she was able to meet your needs. when she wasnt, and you felt you had met hers, you grew resentful, and for lack of a better word, fought back. it strikes me, on some levels, as similar to trying to return to the idealization phase.

if im right (correct me where im wrong) this may also have its origins in childhood.

Repetition Compulsion has come up in another session for me.  Perhaps.  I know it was true in my younger days.  As an interesting side note to this; before I met my now ex wife I had shared a lot of dating stories with a friend and told her how unfulfilled I felt.  She asked me, then why do you keep dating women that you know you don't want a long term r/s with?  Hit me like a ton of lead.  Which made me change course and then lead me to be more open and a relationship with my now ex.

[once removed]

that sums it up for me as well. with every girl ive dated, i felt beforehand that i "knew better". something about it seemed right, and easier though. so much of why we choose partners is unconscious or subconscious. there are many reasons we may choose an emotionally unavailable partner. when we find them, its incredibly freeing.

[joeramabeme]

its a nice metaphor for my relationship, and the second example is the kind often referred to as gaslighting. really all it was was feelings equaling fact to her, and an argument over two different versions of events. usually youll see gaslighting used in websites about "abusers" and "psychopaths", as a malicious, deliberate behavior that somehow theyve all learned how to do. youll see blogs with lists like "if your partner does these 10 things RUN" and it will be on there. at some point, any fight about different perceptions is "gaslighting" and cause to "run". in fairness, youll even see it in articles on psychology today.

. . . you dont get much of a picture if i just tell you "my ex was gaslighting me". when i have walked examples through with other members, its usually a fight over two different perceptions of events. . .
the difference is subtle, but very important in terms of a balanced understanding.

I see the distinction you are making here and it is a good one.  I can't say for others, but I am sure that I was being "gaslit" as well.  Example; I asked her to hand me my gym bag - bag was whipped at me creating a mess - she storms out and comes back 2 hours later apologizing and explaining that she felt threatened - next morning I say thank you for explaining this - she says, I never said anything like that you are making it all up and gets very angry with me. 

This is one of many examples.  Even so, given your clearly articulate delineation; I realize that I have been using the gaslighting term as a broad basket that includes differences in perceptions that probably do not qualify as gaslighting.  This is very helpful.

. we arent very prone to going to therapy to discuss what someone tells us are our issues.

LOL!  I did!

did your actions make her feel unsafe and unheard because of what you were asking for? very possible. id need examples and details.

what i see on many levels is two people trying to change each other, an extremely common dynamic in relationships. i think you were obviously more clear and direct about identifying what you wanted to change. for her it was more subtle, and fleeting, not well articulated and hard to nail down, and based on feelings, feelings prone to changing. it sounds like initially she was able to meet your needs. when she wasnt, and you felt you had met hers, you grew resentful, and for lack of a better word, fought back. it strikes me, on some levels, as similar to trying to return to the idealization phase.

if im right (correct me where im wrong) this may also have its origins in childhood.

My recollection is almost the inverse of what you say; I thought she met my needs very well and that I could not meet hers.  No matter how hard I tried she wasn't happy about . . . me.  Everything I was and did was fair game for berating me.  Shows I watched, music I liked, food I ate, how much I went to the gym, where I went with friends, my habits, what I wore, the meds I took, how I spoke etc.   

She and I are about a half inch difference of height, in her favor.  She would walk up to me eye to eye and lift her head up in the air and say; "Joe where are you, I can't see you".  It was all fun and games to me at first as I took it in good fun and jest.  But as I absorbed more of the context of never ending 'everything about you needs to change'; it all became very uncomfortable.  I used to let her slap me up side the head - I grew up around this and it was standard behavior - but I remember the last time she did it and I stood up and looked her in the eye and said 'never do that again'.  It stopped being fun and lighthearted and turned into a statement of superiority in the name of fear. 

I know she loved me and yet I guess whatever fears she had made her feel a need to keep me down one (or more) notches.  Where my needs did not get met was just getting her to stop the berating and blaming me for almost everything which triggered me and kept us from reaching our marital goals. And in that way, we surely had a stranglehold on one another that neither could release.

In her own way, she did an awesome job responding to my requests. She was wonderfully loving and caring and simply my soul mate and life partner.  I truly miss all of that in a very big way.  We just couldn't stop the arguments and I really wanted the therapist to tell her to stop being abusive and instead got what sounds to me like a lot rationalizing mumbo jumbo. 

There are times when I think through all of this and ask myself; is this really BPD?  Or am I just overreacting to someone who was insecure and therefore being insecure myself.

It's hard to believe that this seemingly simple detail is what has pulled us apart.  Well I guess she literally "can't see me now" and for whatever the reason, it is what she really wanted.

Once again, thank you Once Removed

JRB

[once removed]

Example; I asked her to hand me my gym bag - bag was whipped at me creating a mess - she storms out and comes back 2 hours later apologizing and explaining that she felt threatened - next morning I say thank you for explaining this - she says, I never said anything like that you are making it all up and gets very angry with me. 

people with BPD use a variety of tools to deflect and ward off responsibility and/or cling to their own reality: compartmentalizing, splitting, in more extreme states dissociation. feelings=fact can certainly stretch to the point of delusion. its all defensive.

i had someone close to me once tell me in a rare moment of great vulnerability that they "probably have a mental disorder". i brought it up not long after. instant, total denial that any such thing was ever said. this is pretty common.

LOL!  I did!

so what drove you to do that? were the issues raised valid? were you doubting your own perceptions? was it an honest effort to clean up your side of the street? leading by example? effort to win her over? what?

There are times when I think through all of this and ask myself; is this really BPD?  Or am I just overreacting to someone who was insecure and therefore being insecure myself.

most of us were with partners relatively low on the spectrum (the higher functioning variety), or who would not qualify for a diagnosis, though they may have pronounced traits of the disorder(s) and those effected us and the relationship greatly. thats where we want to focus: what caused us pain? what was unacceptable?

were you dealing with someone insecure? certainly sounds like it, and her behavior was abusive. are you overreacting? i dont think so; and standing up and saying "never do that again" to anyone slapping you upside the head is a good response, in my opinion. in many ways, by our boundaries, we teach people how to treat us and not to treat us. its a challenge to affect a change when we assert boundaries retroactively, though better late than never. having said that, boundaries are about us: what we will and wont do. protesting abusive behavior may still be tolerating it.

you have good reason to be angry joe. what i meant by a mix of anger and resolve is that i think youre self aware in your anger and using it to move you forward. its productive. and at the same time, youre exploring your role, your self, what you can learn, take with you, and change. that facilitates the real growth as the anger helps us detach and then subsides.

[joeramabeme]

LOL!  I did!

so what drove you to do that? were the issues raised valid? were you doubting your own perceptions? was it an honest effort to clean up your side of the street? leading by example? effort to win her over? what?

Would like to continue hearing the remainder of your thoughts but this next part is too personal for a public post.  I will PM you my response.

JRB