Circular Arguments: "I am your mate" | Topic 2

[Grey Kitty]

Btw when I told my SO that the only way we are going to resolve this argument is if he gets a divorce he said "I see no point in talking until then".

What am I supposed to say to that?

That sounds like the silent treatment to me.

Do you mean that is him threatening the silent treatment for you while he's working on his divorce?

Pardon me if I'm out of line here... .but the way you described talking to him / video chatting with him / etc. in the prior post, it sounds like you would be RELIEVED not to hear from him for a few days, at least!

You could spend that time and energy on your daughter!

Mod Note: This post was split from Circular Arguments: "I am your mate"

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

You could spend that time and energy on your daughter!

[unicorn2014]

Hi Grey Kitty and Form Flier, he is actually helping my daughter with her homework.


I am spending time and energy on my daughter. She's been home from school for a week with a very bad case of poison oak and I have been nursing her around the clock as well as taking her to the doctor.


I think I figured out what I need to do. I need to tell his father how I feel about being in a relationship with him while he is not yet divorced. That is what triggered me this morning. He told me something his father said that really made me mad. I want his father to know that I did not choose to be in a relationship with a married man. I overreacted to something he told me his father said. I will simply write a letter to his father tell him how I feel and feel better.

 

[myself]

It's changing from a circle to a triangle... .

[unicorn2014]

Myself, that is nothing new. He's the one who told me what his dad said, I'm not the one who asked him what his dad said. He's the one that called me to tell me his dad called him a second time. I'm not responsible for that. He did that, not me. Perhaps I should write about his triangulation next. I'm not the one who created the triangle.

[Grey Kitty]

I think I figured out what I need to do. I need to tell his father how I feel about being in a relationship with him while he is not yet divorced. That is what triggered me this morning. He told me something his father said that really made me mad. I want his father to know that I did not choose to be in a relationship with a married man. I overreacted to something he told me his father said. I will simply write a letter to his father tell him how I feel and feel better.

I think that writing a letter to his father is an excellent idea. (And if you do, feel free to post it here for discussion purposes--that sort of letter can be a really good way to sort out your feelings, and think about what actions to take.)

HOWEVER, I suspect that actually sending the letter is a terrible idea.

A conversation between your bf and his father really isn't your business.

Telling his father that the reason you are involved with his son is because his son deceived you about being married seems like a bad idea--I cannot imagine a good outcome from that. if his father believes you, he may get mad at his son, and make drama there, which you will (legitimately) be blamed on. He might also wonder why you are making such a big deal about it when you stayed in his son's life after finding out he's still married. He may not believe you anyway.

I'd respect a father who took the side of his son over his son's fairly recent girlfriend, in general. Perhaps he knows that his son can be a real jerk sometimes?

... .more importantly, why are you mad at his father instead of your bf? Your bf decided to tell you about this conversation, and ir probably wasn't your business anyway. Your bf decided to bring you into the middle of this and stir up trouble.

Myself, that is nothing new. He's the one who told me what his dad said, I'm not the one who asked him what his dad said. He's the one that called me to tell me his dad called him a second time. I'm not responsible for that. He did that, not me. Perhaps I should write about his triangulation next. I'm not the one who created the triangle.

You didn't create the triangle... .however I think that contacting his father will likely be participating in it.

[unicorn2014]

I'm not mad at his father. I am mad at my fiancé. I'll consider what you're saying. His father was actually telling him he is ok with our relationship. I'm not ok with our relationship. His father knows I am his fiancé and not his girlfriend .

[formflier]

 

Many things in our lives are not created by us.

We still have a choice to participate in them or not.

Many things get said to us without us asking.  Except for very short things... .we generally have a choice to listen or not.

Especially once we train our ear to listen for things that are none of our business

So, while the traingle and the conversation were not your "fault"... .I believe in both cases you have a choice available to you that removes you from both of them.


FF

[unicorn2014]

  Ok, FF, I'll bite. What choice is that? How do I train my ear? I'm all ears!

/

My SO is mad at me for telling him not to tell him about what his father said to him and for telling him he objectifies me .

[Grey Kitty]

His father knows I am his fiancé and not his girlfriend .

I apologize if I mistakenly called him your boyfriend earlier--I wasn't trying to make a point, or anything; I simply didn't check how you described it.

However, now that I'm thinking about it, perhaps you should reconsider that definition yourself?

He is still married. Does he have any kind of legal separation or other formal stuff done with his wife yet?

Did he give you a ring?

Do you have a wedding date?

[unicorn2014]

He gave me a ring.

No legal separation .

No wedding date.

Now he's mad at me .

[Grey Kitty]

Can you just let him be mad at you? (Without needing to do anything about it)

[unicorn2014]

Grey Kitty, now he's telling me "you broke it, you fix it". He's doing everything but working on his divorce.

His most recent text to me that I have not replied to



"Ignoring facts to make your point is not reasonable nor is it irrational. It makes me wonder who is talking to me.

If you call me back and want to connect to me I expect you to reasonable, warm and respectful"

I hung up on him because he called me irrational. I asked him politely to not call me irrational and that was he response.

Previously he had texted this:

"That was completely uncalled for

I want to know you ignore facts you clearly are aware of and then come at me like that.

You hung on me

Fine


If you call me back and want to connect to me I expect you to reasonable and warm and respectful

###

Again you hang up

After yesterday you have the nerve to talk about insults?

I am not calling back

You broke it

You fix it

###"



(yesterday I had told him sometimes  I feel like he treats me like a lonely child's comfort object)

What am I supposed to do with that?

I had told him two weeks ago we were supposed to meet to go over his divorce and since I couldn't because my daughter got poison oak and he was under a work deadline I asked him to write me a couple of paragraphs along with some documents. He never got it to me. Two weeks ago he was (supposedly) ready to go.

I really don't know what to do here.

It takes a lot of energy to keep a LDR going.

He wants to talk about my daughter's homework and how much he enjoyed helping her.

Then when I tell him what I need him from is his escrow papers and divorce decree, that's what I'm looking for him, that's what I want to hear about, he starts getting defensive.

[formflier]

Ok, FF, I'll bite. What choice is that? How do I train my ear? I'm all ears!

/

My SO is mad at me for telling him not to tell him about what his father said to him and for telling him he objectifies me .

When someone else wants to involve you in their relationship with a third party (in this case father and son)... .my hope is that your alarm bells should start going off.  That voice should be saying "this MAY be none of my business".

If this type of thing is a recurring issue (which it seems to be in your r/s)... .then that alarm might want to be calibrated to jump straight to this is none of my business.


Generally best to identify if there is a healthy role you can play in those conversations and either play that role or politely back out of that conversation.

Choices

Even though "someone else started it... .or did it" doesn't mean you have to go along with it.  You still have a choice.

Saying you have to do something because "they did it" removes power from you and hands it to them. 

Generally a not so good way to go about life.  Doubly not a good idea if the person getting the power displays traits of BPD.

FF

[formflier]

  He's doing everything but working on his divorce.

Yep... .exactly.  He has made that choice... .and made it very obvious.

You have a choice to continue things as they have been going or perhaps change the way you go about the relationship.


FF

[unicorn2014]

Ok, FF, I'll bite. What choice is that? How do I train my ear? I'm all ears!

/

My SO is mad at me for telling him not to tell him about what his father said to him and for telling him he objectifies me .

When someone else wants to involve you in their relationship with a third party (in this case father and son)... .my hope is that your alarm bells should start going off.  That voice should be saying "this MAY be none of my business".

If this type of thing is a recurring issue (which it seems to be in your r/s)... .then that alarm might want to be calibrated to jump straight to this is none of my business.


Generally best to identify if there is a healthy role you can play in those conversations and either play that role or politely back out of that conversation.

Choices

Even though "someone else started it... .or did it" doesn't mean you have to go along with it.  You still have a choice.

Saying you have to do something because "they did it" removes power from you and hands it to them. 

Generally a not so good way to go about life.  Doubly not a good idea if the person getting the power displays traits of BPD.

FF

My pwBPD thinks its positive that he's involving me with his dad. He was estranged from his dad until last week, and when I sent his parents a card his dad called his wife to ask who I was. His dad also sent me a card which was very positive.

The thing I am mad about is my pwBPD told me his dad said we are all sinners and that is why I am angry. I wanted to make sure that his dad knew that I did not choose to be in a relationship with a married man. My pwBPD said his dad knew that he deceived me in the beginning of the r/s. His dad on the other hand is forgiving and ok with our relationship. I am the one who is mad.

I told my pwBPD that I did not want to hear about his conversation with his dad. He told me he is trying to bring me in. He thinks what he is doing is positive.

Part of the problem with my r/s is that initially it started out with him having power over me, I alluded to this before, there was a D/s dynamic in it. Then when I discovered his BPD traits made that unsafe I axed that part of the r/s.

[unicorn2014]

  He's doing everything but working on his divorce.

Yep... .exactly.  He has made that choice... .and made it very obvious.

You have a choice to continue things as they have been going or perhaps change the way you go about the relationship.


FF

I am trying. It says on his calendar that he is pulling things for me regarding his divorce. I am sick of having to nag him about this. It makes me feel bad. I'm also sick of not having documentation about his divorce. That also makes me feel bad. Its kind of like a no win situation. I don't know how to change the way I go about the r/s.

[formflier]

I told my pwBPD that I did not want to hear about his conversation with his dad. He told me he is trying to bring me in. He thinks what he is doing is positive.

You have discovered and are experiencing why it is LESS important to focus on what we "tell" a pwBPD traits and more important to focus on what we do.

So... you tell him you don't want to hear the conversation.

He ignores you and keeps on going.

You end the conversation... .

Next day... .if he tries to bring you in again... .you take same action.

You are in charge of what you hear and participate in. 

FF

[formflier]

  I am sick of having to nag him about this. It makes me feel bad.

So... .take a deep breath.

Has nagging him worked? 

Do you "have to" nag him?

Think about my comments above about pwBPD traits will focus more on what you do than on what you say.

If you take that as a truth... .a "rule" for dealing with pwBPD traits.  Then what is a better option than nagging?

FF

[unicorn2014]

I told my pwBPD that I did not want to hear about his conversation with his dad. He told me he is trying to bring me in. He thinks what he is doing is positive.

You have discovered and are experiencing why it is LESS important to focus on what we "tell" a pwBPD traits and more important to focus on what we do.

So... you tell him you don't want to hear the conversation.

He ignores you and keeps on going.

You end the conversation... .

Next day... .if he tries to bring you in again... .you take same action.

You are in charge of what you hear and participate in.  

FF

So normal people listen to what you tell them, right?

The problem with his dad was yesterday, today its him calling me abusive for being angry... . 

I've hung up on him two or three times today for calling me abusive. I will not listen to that. He keeps sending me texts. I won't read them because I find them inflammatory. I call him and ask him what he said to me in a text.

His accusations of abuse are crazy.

And no, nagging does not work.

I do not know what to do. I'm upset with him because his divorce wasn't filed. Two weeks ago we were supposed to meet to go over this. I had to postpone due to my daughter's affliction and his work so I asked him to prepare a statement and some documents. He still hasn't shown it to me but supposedly he's working on it right now.

I told him this morning that I think he lied to me two weeks ago because it should have been ready to go.

I asked him how he had all this free time to keep calling me up. He said he didn't. I'm sick of him telling me I'm abusive. I'm tired of him telling me "I broke this". I told him I didn't break anything, he did, I'm just dealing with it.

Oh and when I said I hung up on him for calling me irrational he said he didn't remember calling me that but he was sorry if he did. That is totally crazy.

[formflier]

The thing I am mad about is my pwBPD told me his dad said we are all sinners and that is why I am angry. I wanted to make sure that his dad knew that I did not choose to be in a relationship with a married man.  

I'm a bit confused here.

You are choosing to be in a relationship with a married man... .correct?  I understand the story about how he answered a question oddly about if he was married.

Was your purpose of communicating with the father to expose the son's deception?

Boy... this is messy and confusing.  Again... .I believe this highlights importance of keeping relationship issues between the two people actually involved in the relationship.

So... .dad and son keep their issues and discussions between themselves.

You and fiancee keep your discussions between yourselves.

FF

[formflier]

So normal people listen to what you tell them, right?

Depends on what you tell them.  I would say they will usually listen.  If it is a request they may or may not honor it.

I've hung up on him two or three times today for calling me abusive. 

Do you think you would be better off with less phone calls... .less contact.

So... when you make a decision to hang up on him... .wait until the next day to resume contact.  If he is abusive or contrary then... .wait two days.

Right now... the hangups just mean he has to wait a little while... until next phone call.  I suspect he has not fully calmed and soothed himself and sort of picks up where he left off.

FF

[unicorn2014]

FF I did not talk to the dad. I was saying that's what I wanted the dad to know. I'm choosing not to leave a legally married but physically separated man, yes, because I already accepted his marriage proposal before I even met him. Crazy.

[unicorn2014]

FF he actually sent me a text to propose we not talk for the rest of the day

"You know perhaps we should not talk any more today

Your hanging up on me over and over just keeps opening up the drama from yesterday. "



He's blaming me of course. How come he gets to talk to me that way but I can't talk to him that way?

Then when he called and I answered he hung up on me because I called his idea dumb because he made me mess up on my laundry. It's really convoluted. He's proposing we don't talk because I hung up on him yet he turns around and hangs up on me when I tell him that not talking isn't going to solve the problem of him calling me abusive.

[Cat Familiar]

Unicorn, I may have told you a bit about the beginning of my relationship with my current husband. Like you, I got involved with a married man without knowing it. Later, after I had fallen in love with him, I learned he was married.

He said he was leaving his relationship. And I believed him at the time. However, he didn't.

We quit seeing each other and over several years, I just could not get him out of my mind. Then I received a letter from him, which made me really angry. I thought, "why is he messing with my mind" and showed it to a friend. She read it and told me that he was still in love with me. That made me even angrier, since I had made room in my life for him and he continued on with his marriage.

I felt deceived, betrayed, you name it.

So, a few years later I received a phone call from him. He had ended his marriage (still not divorced) and would be in my area to teach a seminar. Would I like to see him? We met for dinner and he asked if he could visit me. Thus began our relationship (again). He got divorced and we've been together for 11 years.

I didn't see the BPD in him until we'd been together a few years. I did see the substance abuse (alcohol and prescription medication). He's better now with that, but it still is an issue at times.

The reason I'm telling you all this is that I hear so much anger and betrayal in your words. I've felt that too, even though now we have a pretty good relationship, despite his BPD. I realize that I'm still harboring some of the bad feelings at how our relationship began.

I hear what you're experiencing in a LDR relationship and I wonder a few things:

Do you think you'll be able to forgive him completely even if he does get a divorce?

Do you believe your relationship will be better when you are able to live with him?

You seem to have a lot of conflict now. Do you foresee that lessening after he does formally end his marriage?

[chump]

I noticed that the title of this thread involves "Circular Arguments" and I noticed my experience of reading it had a bit of a "circular" quality to it.  It seems like the key points GK and FF are getting at keep slipping through the cracks. Or like trying to pick up a bouncing ball, reaching for it, and tripping over your feet and kicking the ball away just as you think you have it.

Unicorn, what I'm interpreting from the feedback here is that you have the right to conduct a relationship on whatever terms you wish for, and only be available in ways that feel healthy and right to you.  You want your pwBPD to initiate his divorce and demonstrate that to you in an irrefutable way.  That sounds like a perfectly reasonable boundary.  You can assert your right to wait until that criteria is met before proceeding any further, defined however feels appropriate to you.

You have the right to only communicate when the tone feels mutually respectful, something pwBPD may often find difficult, but you still have the right to assert that boundary and respectfully end any conversation that violates that tenet, to return at a later time when emotions have cooled.

FF was pointing out earlier that the fact that this is a LDR seems to facilitate this kind of healthy boundary setting.  

I hope the tone of my post is coming across with complete respect, these are maddening and difficult dynamics, but there is something about this thread that seems a bit circular.  Like each time there's a chance for clarity, or "aha" moment, the topic will shift a bit, and the point will be lost.

When all is said and done, often more is said than done.  Each of us has the right, the responsibility, the power to conduct ourselves in our relationships as we see fit.  And everyone else has the right to respond as they see fit, including consequences we may not like, but cannot control.  We get in the tall weeds pretty quickly when we try to exert control over others' behavior and choices.

Getting clarity about where our boundaries lie, and quietly, calmly, respectfully asserting them is all we really have control over anyway.  And this is the door that's always open to a kind of freedom and healthy relating that's transformative.

Chump.

[unicorn2014]

I didn't see the BPD in him until we'd been together a few years. I did see the substance abuse (alcohol and prescription medication). He's better now with that, but it still is an issue at times.

Last year my pwBPD threatened suicide with pain pills he had saved, I told him later that he was abusing prescription medication. He denied it. He always told me what a good patient he was, that his doctors had said so.

I hear what you're experiencing in a LDR relationship and I wonder a few things:

Do you think you'll be able to forgive him completely even if he does get a divorce?

I do not know

Do you believe your relationship will be better when you are able to live with him?

I do not know. Considering that the relationship so far has consisted of him visiting me and staying with me, I do not know what its like to visit him or stay with him.

You seem to have a lot of conflict now. Do you foresee that lessening after he does formally end his marriage?

I do not know. I have a problem with his attitude. I know we're in a high conflict relationship, he doesn't believe we are.

Also thanks for pointing out to me that I feel betrayed. I had not realized that. I'm glad I feel more then anger, and I definitely don't know how to communicate that to my pwBPD. I have a feelings wheel that my former sponsor gave to me so I will take a look at that to see where betrayal fits in, as well as my old dbt material. I'm not very good with feelings myself.

[unicorn2014]

I noticed that the title of this thread involves "Circular Arguments" and I noticed my experience of reading it had a bit of a "circular" quality to it.  It seems like the key points GK and FF are getting at keep slipping through the cracks. Or like trying to pick up a bouncing ball, reaching for it, and tripping over your feet and kicking the ball away just as you think you have it.



I hope the tone of my post is coming across with complete respect, these are maddening and difficult dynamics, but there is something about this thread that seems a bit circular.  Like each time there's a chance for clarity, or "aha" moment, the topic will shift a bit, and the point will be lost.

Chump.

Chump, that's quite a handle. Its a bit hard to reply to. 

I'm the one that titled this thread, it was so long the moderators started another thread.

I hear what you are saying. I don't know how to respond. My pwBPD wants to blame me for the problems in our relationship. I don't know what to do with that. I wanted to talk to him about the dynamic in our relationship but he immediately wanted to shift the blame to me so I withdrew.

I do not mean to be circular. This is a learning process for me, and I have a lot going on with my daughter simultaneously.

[chump]

  Yeah the handle describes the guy who first came to this site way back when it was still called the "Nook." I'm less "chump-like" these days.[/quote]
My pwBPD wants to blame me for the problems in our relationship. I don't know what to do with that.[/quote]
Here's a good, small, simple example to work on.  He "wants" to blame you.  Of course he does.  Blaming you is a whole lot easier than taking responsibility for it himself.

Lots of people would prefer to blame the other person for problems in a relationship.  Fair enough.  Pretty understandable actually.  Now, you get to decide what you do with that.  You can understand that he "wants" to blame you, you can choose to radically accept that he "wants" to blame you, and then you can choose to decide how much, if any, of that blame you are willing to take on, either now, or ever.  Then you can decide what, if anything, you want to do in response to the parts that you are willing to accept blame for, communicate about, problem-solve around, make adjustments, apologies, whatever.

This is a small example of something you can do about his "wanting" to blame you.

See what I'm getting at?

Chump.

[formflier]

I do not mean to be circular. This is a learning process for me, and I have a lot going on with my daughter simultaneously.

Great time to slow down... .instead of letting a "point" or issue slip by... .keep the focus on that.  Get it solved... .move on to next issue.

I think that limiting the amount of contact you have with your pwBPD would be a great thing... .right now there is so much wrapped up in what he said, who he hung up on, why he hung up, what he said to his dad, what his dad said to him, what his dr said to him, what you said to him about his prescriptions... .the list could go on.

Limited contact is not punitive.  He may claim it is... .  Please don't worry about his claims.

Focus on slowing down... .focus on figuring out your values and actions and boundaries to protect those.  Focus on consistently applying those boundaries

You can't do it all at once.  None of us can. 

Yes... .there will be a lot of things that you will have to "let go" while finding a solution to the issue you are focused on.  That's fine if you actually stay focused and find a solution.

If the focus keeps changing  a couple times a day and no solutions are found.  Well... .I think we know how that turns out.

You are the one in charge of the "pace" of the r/s.  The speed.  You are the one in charge of the communication.  You have a choice to answer the phone... .or not

I really feel like you are "almost there"... .and then it slips through your fingers (a little different way of saying what Chump seems to have noticed). 

Slow down... .focus... .solutions exist... .find the solution... .then face the next issue.

FF