20+ Years Marriage BPD Wife Finally Wants a DIVORCE, What to do?

[formflier]

Hey...very "broad" advice here.

If you (the non) don't want divorce and your pwBPD is threatening it, that can also be a "boundary issue". 

Here is the thing...they don't need you to participate to get a divorce.  So all the threats and associated "mind blendering" that pwBPD are so good at...are all not needed.

Now..I'm not saying ignore them...but perhaps..

"Babe..that makes me really sad to hear that.  I don't want a divorce, but understand I can't stop you from leaving the relationship.  I'm ready to discuss what we can both do to improve our relationship."

And then just drop it.

Best,

FF

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[NonnyMouse]

"Babe..that makes me really sad to hear that.  I don't want a divorce, but understand I can't stop you from leaving the relationship.  I'm ready to discuss what we can both do to improve our relationship."

I wish I could do that but it would probably result in being accused of being in denial. So often the downside of saying something helpful is far worse than any potential upside. I'm hoping that a change of mind re divorce will be her idea!

[formflier]

Yep...my suggestion of what to say is not to get a particular response.  I would encourage you to start thinking of what you want to say regardless of how they might respond.

Then remember..there is no requirement that you listen to them talk about you "being in denial"...

Best,

FF

[MontanaDude]

Yep...my suggestion of what to say is not to get a particular response.  I would encourage you to start thinking of what you want to say regardless of how they might respond.

Then remember..there is no requirement that you listen to them talk about you "being in denial"...

Best,

FF

Good advice. I've definitely had to change my way of thinking but the challenge is when they respond so negatively and spiral being able to effectively talk through that. When in reality we shouldn't be trying to talk through that but lovingly reassure I can see this topic is important and I will come back to it once we've had time to cool down. (At least I believe this is the approach. It's still difficult to make sure I'm doing the right thing) It's like this game of chess where I'm still learning the rules and the rules don't make any logical sense. That's actually what it feels like a lot summed up!

I've started taking more ownership of my feelings and when she says things like "Well I know if I say X you will feel y so I don't want to do that because it will hurt you" And I ask why do you say that? Do you know how I feel, have you asked? I don't feel that way so please do not assume. And then I don't delve further. But it absolutely can be so hard and I'm still working on "retraining" my brain.

[MontanaDude]

Thanks Kells. Yes we are both in therapy. I first sought therapy 3 years ago after her emotional affair and we were also wanting to go in with our daughter. Since then I have been the one to schedule almost every single appointment, I think actually ever couples appointment.

We've seen two male therapist who were great. First one never an issue, then we stopped going when things got "better" but we really should have kept going. The last one was great as well and was the one who confirmed my suspicion of BPD after he discussed our daughter having it. The more I read about BPD the more clarity I had about my entire marriage and confusion with her. Now she hasn't been diagnosed by a Psychologist, the therapist was an LCP Marriage Family therapist and worked with many individuals with BPD and as he puts it, "it is an attachment injury that with time can usually be healed. 1 - 2 years." Whther she has it or not the traits are there and just me understanding it seems to be helping us both, especially me as I can detach with love and learning to not think I'm crazy for the things I'm thinking.

After we went through about 5-6 months of roller coastering this last bit she got triggered by him pushing a bit harder in a session with her and she never wanted to go back. She wanted to see a female therapist because she said "A mann will just never be able to fully understand me and what I'm dealing with and I'd rather talk with a woman." To which I'm on board with. I waited around for her to find and schedule one... which didn't happen and when se told me our sis in law had called around and these particular ones referred to us were all booked. I asked if she wanted my help in finding one for us to which she did. So of course I called every female therapist I could find who worked with couples and individuals and seemed might be a good fit. I found one to which we are both going now, I've been twice, her once and we both like.

The lady is Christian, which was important to me. She's more of a motherly type which I thought was also good and she seems very blunt and to the point. It's yet to be seen how she is but because she doesn't have much history with us yet she doesn't quite understand the dynamics of what's happening. She is going to suggest to my wife after their next appointment to see us together.

More than anything my hope with the mediator as in times past is to help us navigate the conversations where she spirals quickly and we are never able to have. This lady honestly seems a little less likely to put up with BS and our last male therapist was much more gentle if I had to summarize it. But... she is a woman and so we'll see how it goes. I just hope it doesn't backfire.

Yes I can understand what you mean by the level of shame is off the charts and that being uber hard to deal with.

Yes I am so willing to own my stuff and work on me. I definitely get discouraged at times especially when my "relationship bucket" feels so low at times and the emotional, spiritual, and intellectual connection is absent and has been for some time because there is no space to have conversations where either we don't agree on, or she overwhelmingly feels guilt, judgement, bad, and I'm left just stuffing everything back in because there is no space right now. I'm hopeful there will be at some point and we can communicate effectively and constructively, and be able to share my feelings without her taking them all on and just feeling guilty and not "enough."

It feels to me (gut instinct and based off conversations with the therapist) she is gonna help bridge some gaps and get into things fairly aggressively in our next session. I just don't want it to go worse.

How do you communicate to someone they are enough when they feel they are not? When the slightest negative feeling seems to burn the entire house down. This I've realized is something beyond my control. Of course not if I was verbally, emotionally, or physically abusive to her. I could completely see someone feeling this way.

She did make a comment recently that really shook me up and took me back, definitely hurtful and I don't think it's true based off what I've read but said I was "emotionally manipulative." Nor do I "feel" like I do this. I would think if she really thought this about me it would be some huge red flag, it certainly would be for me.

Anyways... back to life. Thanks for the help.

Hey MontanaDude, welcome back --

Can you remind me, are either/both of you in therapy? Sorry if it's slipped my mind.

I suspect it's a level of shame that is beyond anything we've experienced... so much so that even a "normal" thing like "I love you, I support you, maybe this workbook that has helped so many people can help you too, I'm giving it to you because I care about you" -- well, like you said, it goes over like a ton of bricks. Something that would be like a 0 or 1 / 10 on a "normal" shame-meter is a 8-9-10 of shame for a pwBPD.

So, you're right, it can come across as something that isn't shame -- as pride, self-image, ego, whatever -- yet I think that's covering up a profound sense of worthlessness that is excruciating to even "poke at" indirectly.

That's why I'm hoping that when you mentioned above "not being able to talk about stuff outside of therapy" that she is in fact going, because that'd be a very good sign. Also hoping that she is with a T who as you mentioned "can help her pause and listen, reflect and engage in a constructive manner". Fingers crossed. It would be an excellent sign if she has a trusting connection with a professional like that.

...

It's understandable that you'd hope she could recognize "whose emotional stuff is whose".

As you think about what she's like, and where she is in her journey, what do you think realistically would happen if you chose that?

...

Just want to say that overall, based on a lot of members' stories that I've read here, yours does sound more hopeful than others. I commend you for wanting to take ownership of "your stuff" and my hope would be that by modeling that behavior, and being willing to change some ways you interact (to "learn to speak her native language"), you guys can have more times of neutral or positive interactions and fewer times of emotional blow-ups running your marriage.

Hang in there...

kells76

[MontanaDude]

I am also in a similar situation to MontanaDude.  I am married 25 years, with a wife threatening divorce.  I finished Stop Walking On Eggshells and the workbook.  Setting boundaries seems to be helping.

Advice from mitten, formflier, Cat Familiar, and NonnyMouse are all very helpful.  It is good to see folks having long term success.

Do you ever get to a point where you aren't "on edge" knowing that your wife could get upset at you over nothing?    Things are going fairly well right now.  I am waiting for a minor disagreement to set things off again.

Awesome I know it helped me a lot. I need to reread it again. I also really recommend the Book "Loving someone with Borderline Personality Disorder"

I'm definitely not at that point. Maybe FF is or someone else. I'm literally figuring this all out still and how to interact with her.

Why is your wife threatening divorce and has it been something you anticipated or were things already a roller coaster?

Thanks for sharing!

[MontanaDude]

Montana Dude. Unfortunately I don't have much time right now but I can't not reply to your situation any longer.
Our stories are almost identical right down to our locations. I'm still not totally familiar with the forum and it's privacy guidelines so I won't ask what town/city you're in and I won't offer mine here now. If there is a pvt msg I'll try to contact you there.

No worries. It's wild how many stories you end up hearing are similar. And we can all help each other in it for sure!

Feel free to share your story here as it may help others and give others the opportunity to chime in with friendly and helpful advice.

[bugwaterguy]

Why is your wife threatening divorce and has it been something you anticipated or were things already a roller coaster?

My wife has often said, "Maybe we just aren't meant to be together" when there are minor conflicts.  I pretzel myself to try to do what she wants when she says things like that. 

I believe my wife has hoarding tendencies.  It has gotten to the point where it is encroaching on our family's ability to function. 

In the past, I have tried to accommodate her every way I could think of.  I already  do the vast majority of household chores (cooking, dishes, laundry, kids to school & bed, sweep/mop, pet care, lawn, snow removal, gardening, etc) so she has time to deal with the clutter.  I set aside time.  I ask if there is anything I can do.  I try to get her to make a decision on one item at a time.  She has said I cannot donate or throw away anything without her permission.

I changed my approach.  Rather than asking her to make a decision, which I know is very difficult for her, I stated what I would do.  I stated a time that I would deal with clutter in a small, specific, area.  I did not ask her to do anything.  When she didn't deal with it, I did.  The next round, she dealt with the things that were important to her.  That lead to more serious divorce discussions.

After a couple rounds of that, things are getting better (I think).  I have put in on pause in December, because of busyness around the holiday.  We will see what happens in January.

[formflier]

One of the hard things for people to understand is a pwBPD likely means "I feel like we should divorce" and we hear "I'm going to get a lawyer and serve you papers".

Kinda like someone that says "I feel like thru hiking the Appalachian trail"...yet they take no steps or ever even go on a day hike.

They "honestly" had the feeling and communicated that...and only that.

Best,

FF

[MontanaDude]

I can appreciate that. My wife did actually say "I want a divorce." Which then she never took steps to do it and was waiting on me to discuss it when I approached her differently after more than a week of this sitting there not being dealt with. It changed things up a lot because I asked her if she really wanted a divorce to which she replied she didn't but was scared about moving forward.

Moving forward I'm not validating the invalid.

She's fine as long as things are smooth in the marriage and I'm learning how to allow her to deal with her emotions while I detach.

Crazy how codependency has been such a big thing for me without realizing it.

One of the hard things for people to understand is a pwBPD likely means "I feel like we should divorce" and we hear "I'm going to get a lawyer and serve you papers".

Kinda like someone that says "I feel like thru hiking the Appalachian trail"...yet they take no steps or ever even go on a day hike.

They "honestly" had the feeling and communicated that...and only that.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I can appreciate that. My wife did actually say "I want a divorce." 

Right...I should have said "While technically she said she wants a divorce", what she really means is "it feels that is the only solution" (kinda a despair thing).

Really important for you to understand this...not just for divorce but for other major life things.

If the words come out of her mouth and says "I want x..." and then she doesn't do anything to get X...what is she really "saying"?

Best,

FF

[MontanaDude]

Right...I should have said "While technically she said she wants a divorce", what she really means is "it feels that is the only solution" (kinda a despair thing).

Really important for you to understand this...not just for divorce but for other major life things.

If the words come out of her mouth and says "I want x..." and then she doesn't do anything to get X...what is she really "saying"?

Best,

FF

Yes she specifically said "My heart gave up." Because she felt she'd never be good enough or be able to do all the "things" I am asking. Which interestingly enough I didn't ask her to do things I tried opening up a dialogue about things we can do to better connect.

Right now it's about patients and rebuilding. Things are humming along and at times it seems like everything is perfectly ok. I think paired with the stuff I am learning conflict is lessened as well as she recognizes things in herself and doesn't want to get angry. I'm also leaving her alone when her emotions get high and I can see she is starting to spiral. This typically ends up with her coming to me, apologizing she is having a hard time and I reassure her that's ok and I'm here if she wants to talk about any of it.

The hardest thing I'm having to realize is sitting with "unknowns". her saying things but then not ever clarifying and I'm left wondering WTF?

And yes if she says X and doesn't do anything, it's just feelings and doesn't correlate to action.

Confusing PLEASE READ haha.

But... she's worth it. And I believe our marriage is too. I think things can only get better moving forward as time progresses and we work through things on our own and in therapy. I look forward to the day when we can talk without it spiraling quickly. I believe that will happen as we both work on ourselves and the relationship.

Thanks man!

[formflier]

You've got this!  The good thing is you see tools working in your relationship.

Best,

FF

[Leaf56]

Hi MontanaDude,
I came over to these romance boards from the Parent of Child with BPD boards and read most of this thread just now. Everything you've shared leads me to believe she's having an affair or wants to. You said she had an "emotional affair" with her boss at some point. It sounds to me like the back and forth that you're witnessing is in response to the push/pull that he or some other new man is giving her himself. When she first asked for a divorce, maybe whoever he is gave her reason to believe he would be available soon. Then maybe he pulled back when she told him she told you, and she started reassessing. pwBPD will rarely leave unless they have somewhere secure to land. And now it's before the holidays, so if what I'm saying is true, she'll make a strong effort to get through them in the most amicable way possible. And then she'll start again by mid-January or so, or perhaps after Valentine's Day. Even if you ask her point-blank, she'll probably deny it. You might try asking her sister though. Another thing that stood out to me was that she left your church. I think this probably has more importance than you realize. Of course, this is just my impression, but I think it's worth at least considering.

[MontanaDude]

Hi MontanaDude,
I came over to these romance boards from the Parent of Child with BPD boards and read most of this thread just now. Everything you've shared leads me to believe she's having an affair or wants to. You said she had an "emotional affair" with her boss at some point. It sounds to me like the back and forth that you're witnessing is in response to the push/pull that he or some other new man is giving her himself. When she first asked for a divorce, maybe whoever he is gave her reason to believe he would be available soon. Then maybe he pulled back when she told him she told you, and she started reassessing. pwBPD will rarely leave unless they have somewhere secure to land. And now it's before the holidays, so if what I'm saying is true, she'll make a strong effort to get through them in the most amicable way possible. And then she'll start again by mid-January or so, or perhaps after Valentine's Day. Even if you ask her point-blank, she'll probably deny it. You might try asking her sister though. Another thing that stood out to me was that she left your church. I think this probably has more importance than you realize. Of course, this is just my impression, but I think it's worth at least considering.

I can appreciate your viewpoint, I have 100% confidence it's not an affair. I'll break down a few things. Besides not feeling that at all, which I realize happens to many people but there would be definite indicators that are not present.

The emotional "affair" she had years ago was all one sided. He had no clue how she felt. There's a lot surrounding this I won't go into as to how I know the one sided piece. We worked through it extensively in therapy.

Where we are at today has been a culmination of 22 years and really her entire life.

I think she's dealing with a bit of a MLC but with so many other things throughout the years which have built up.

Throughout our marriage she has felt I have been controlling, overbearing, not listening to her, she's always struggled with feelings of inadequacy and self esteem issues before me that were exacerbated throughout our marriage by her not dealing with and working through her own internal emotions and stuff. My viewing of porn which devastated her, and I can completely understand this. And then once that came out and I stopped, I didn't work through it with her in therapy and she still harbors resentment and all sorts of pent up emotions we need to work through, and really she needs to work through.

She has never dealt with and worked through her own stuff, and finally now is. At least on the surface level I believe she's making attempts she didn't make before. Actually scheduling her own therapy appointment was massive.

She's dealing with hormonoal stuff, premenopause, kids getting older, starting a new business which is taking a lot of her time, we had family living in our house for 6 months which really put a strain on our relationship and was when things started to spiral more, and it has just been all out an absolutely chaotic 7 months.

Leaving our church was also something she has been struggling with for years and along with my Sis in law who left at the same time, they sort of left together. Strength in numbers I suppose. Yet she still claims to want to follow God and Christ and I'm giving her the space she needs to sort through that while I continue to try to be the rock and glue in our house from a leadership and spiritual standpoint.

She's always felt "secondary" in our marriage and so now she's finally speaking up more, having a voice and standing up for herself which is all great! The pendulum has just been swinging all over the place the last 7 months and is swung far to one side, but I feel it will get back to the middle but with our relationship struggling so much and me not learning about how to manage the PB side of things until only recently, when she asked for the Divorce it was after a very difficult night and I even saw it coming, I could "read the room" with the way she was acting the next day and she said "My heart just gave up." It was after I was asking her about some things for us to work on to connect more which she took as asking her to do all sorts of things and she spiraled very quickly and the entire conversation just took a real bad turn for the worse and I didn't know a lot of the techniques I know now.

As I've learned more about BP I've become acutely aware of the things I do which I believe exacerbate it and am being very conscious at not doing those things. Making sure she isn't tired, emotional, and is in a good space before having any sort of conversation that has to do with our relationship, family stuff and right now basically anything that takes some deeper thought and insights. She just can't go there right now from what I have observed.

So I'm focusing on rebuilding that foundation, having the good times again and easing into conversations that take more time and energy since she is about maxed out right now. She cannot handle multiple issues at once which of course has made it very challenging throughout our marriage because that is how I operate. Just grab the bull by the horns and "get PLEASE READ done." I never struggled with Anxiety, depression, or any emotional type stuff like this until I found out about the EA and then I spiraled and really lost my way for months on end. I wish I had handled it better but I'm really focusing on owning my emotions, controlling my thoughts, words, and interactions with her but it is making things difficult and at times I don't feel like myself.

I hope and pray we can continue to move forward and I will do everything I can but at the end of the day I can only control myself.

One of the hardest things right now is as I've backed off a lot on pursuing her, is to feel the disconnect for me, for her it doesn't seem there. But in my world I feel very disconnected from her, I'm still working through a lot of the pains and hurts I've felt by her actions these last 7 months and am trying to let it go, not dwell on them. I've forgiven her, that's not the issue. I just wonder sometimes does she not realize all the hurtful things she's said and done the last 7 months. I cannot imagine ever treating her like that and expecting her to continue a relationship with me yet I am doing that very thing... So it makes me just pause sometimes, and if anything want to talk with her about it but I know that would result in nothing but spiraling quickly.

It's challenging because as I learn things about relationships, marriage, connecting with your spouse, being intentional, so much seems lost to her, she doesn't want to discuss these things, or work on them together, she wants to just keep going day by day, no planning, no preparation, just attack each day as it comes and I am 100% not this way. So I've just put the responsibility on my shoulders to learn and implement all I'm learning and lead by example, continue to hope and pray for her and pray it helps and she will get to a space eventually where she is willing and ready to sit down and talk about our relationship and how we can implement some things.

We'll see how therapy continues to go, I have to have a mediator with us right now to even approach these conversations where she doesn't feel like I'm asking to do so many things.

Anyhow... I ranted for a bit. Again I appreciate your thoughts and insights, and while I have thought about it before it just doesn't "feel" like it's an affair, she's not acting as if she's having one, or she wants one, or anything along those lines. Beyond the spiraling she has and not being able to have discussions that are a bit more difficult we have a pretty damn good marriage.

I honestly don't think she has it in her to even do that. Her heart is so pure, kind, and loving. I would be floored. Our friends are the same, she isn't ever anywhere or alone she could make that happen, at least I don't think so. If it was, it would be a deal breaker for me. I would not be able to continue forward in our marriage and I honestly don't think she would be able to remain or continue on each day if she was. I think it would be too overwhelming for her.

But I'm sure others have been in my spot before who's spouse was having an affair and they didn't think it was possible.

[MontanaDude]

You've got this!  The good thing is you see tools working in your relationship.

Best,

FF

Thanks man! I'm certainly trying.

[bugwaterguy]

Yes she specifically said "My heart gave up." Because she felt she'd never be good enough or be able to do all the "things" I am asking. Which interestingly enough I didn't ask her to do things I tried opening up a dialogue about things we can do to better connect.

This sounds very familiar.  She thinks she isn't good enough when I question even minor things.  From what I read, this is typical "all or nothing" BPD behavior.  My natural inclination is to say, "You are good enough - it is just this little thing that is making things difficult",  but I know she won't hear it.

[bugwaterguy]

The hardest thing I'm having to realize is sitting with "unknowns". her saying things but then not ever clarifying and I'm left wondering WTF?

I hate this too.  When I ask questions, the most common answer I get is, "I don't know".    I feel like if I cannot read her mind, then I am the one at fault.

I am in a better place now.  If I ask something and get "I don't know",  I leave it, and don't ask any further questions.

I ask if I can help.  Once.  Then I leave it be, even when I see her struggling, and there is an obvious fix.    This video is funny and insightful.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg

[bugwaterguy]

As I've learned more about BP I've become acutely aware of the things I do which I believe exacerbate it and am being very conscious at not doing those things. Making sure she isn't tired, emotional, and is in a good space before having any sort of conversation that has to do with our relationship, family stuff and right now basically anything that takes some deeper thought and insights. She just can't go there right now from what I have observed.

I feel this too.  It is tiring to go through the emotional calculus to figure out when is the right time to talk.

It is even more difficult when you think you have done that emotional calculus correctly, and you are all prepped for that conversation.   And in the middle of that conversation you realize she isn't ready, and you have to set aside all that work for another time.

But it is what we choose to do, for all the good things a relationship with this wonderful person, who happens to have BPD.

Keep up the good work!

[Cat Familiar]

I think it can be really difficult to have a structured conversation about issues in relationships that are difficult, dysfunctional, or just when partners are wired differently and need to find common ground.

So often *any* discontent raised will transform itself in the BPD partner’s mind to: “I’m not good enough,” “I’m not loved,” “I’m doing my best and it’s not enough,” “Nothing I do counts,” etc.

Whereas with someone who is not emotionally volatile, you can easily say something like “It gets frustrating when I have to clean up messes that are not my own,” this type of statement can launch a fury with a BPD partner and the message and potential resolution is thereby lost.

Relationship talks when one partner is more logical and the other one more emotional need to be narrowly focused and brief, in my experience.

[formflier]

Relationship talks when one partner is more logical and the other one more emotional need to be narrowly focused and brief, in my experience.

Yes..this!

Also, my P keeps reminding me to "leave the door open to a simple solution".

"Hey babe, it sounded like you had something important on your mind earlier...I've got time to chat now or if we are all good we could go (fill in the blank of fun thing)." 

At least in my relationship "mentioning the issue" (as in naming it) is bad...usually. 

So...FFw knows "I was listening and understood it is a big deal...I can listen more...or we can have fun and call it good."

More and more we just call it good and move on.

Make it easy for them to pick healthy...don't enable them to pick unhealthy, although sometimes they will...and that will be frustrating.

Best,

FF

[MontanaDude]

I think it can be really difficult to have a structured conversation about issues in relationships that are difficult, dysfunctional, or just when partners are wired differently and need to find common ground.

So often *any* discontent raised will transform itself in the BPD partner’s mind to: “I’m not good enough,” “I’m not loved,” “I’m doing my best and it’s not enough,” “Nothing I do counts,” etc.

Whereas with someone who is not emotionally volatile, you can easily say something like “It gets frustrating when I have to clean up messes that are not my own,” this type of statement can launch a fury with a BPD partner and the message and potential resolution is thereby lost.

Relationship talks when one partner is more logical and the other one more emotional need to be narrowly focused and brief, in my experience.

On point here! I'm slowly learning this. Especially because I'm a talker... And like to talk through things. Never been able to effectively do this so I'm relearning. And hopefully someday we can have the deeper dives on topics needing to address. For now... I can focus on what I can do and model it for her and myself.

Thanks!

[MontanaDude]

Yes..this!

Also, my P keeps reminding me to "leave the door open to a simple solution".

"Hey babe, it sounded like you had something important on your mind earlier...I've got time to chat now or if we are all good we could go (fill in the blank of fun thing)." 

At least in my relationship "mentioning the issue" (as in naming it) is bad...usually. 

So...FFw knows "I was listening and understood it is a big deal...I can listen more...or we can have fun and call it good."

More and more we just call it good and move on.

Make it easy for them to pick healthy...don't enable them to pick unhealthy, although sometimes they will...and that will be frustrating.

Best,

FF

Great words of wisdom! Thanks so much. How do you best go about with the unknowns? All the "stuff" they say without clarifying and it's so ambiguous you're left wondering WTF? Then next day it's better? I feel like this is partly how we got to this because issues wouldn't be discussed, she would bury and stuff and then it would come out sideways later.

So I'm trying to figure out the middle ground now on all this and that is difficult for sure.

[formflier]

The less you can do with it...think about it..spend time on it, the better.

And yes...I know that likely seems unnatural.  As a fairly organized guy...Naval Aviator and all that...I was not one to allow "loose ends", so my "nature" drove me to try to solve things, understand things...tidy things up.

Here is the thing...BPD has no interest in being tidied up.

So..I've had to learn to be PRAGMATIC.  I used to be more of a "one best way" kinda guy.  Anyway...if something "works" press the I believe button and move on.  If something isn't working or making things worse...drop it and try something else.

Life is much simpler that way...

Best,

FF

[MontanaDude]

The less you can do with it...think about it..spend time on it, the better.

And yes...I know that likely seems unnatural.  As a fairly organized guy...Naval Aviator and all that...I was not one to allow "loose ends", so my "nature" drove me to try to solve things, understand things...tidy things up.

Here is the thing...BPD has no interest in being tidied up.

So..I've had to learn to be PRAGMATIC.  I used to be more of a "one best way" kinda guy.  Anyway...if something "works" press the I believe button and move on.  If something isn't working or making things worse...drop it and try something else.

Life is much simpler that way...

Best,

FF

Man... You are spot on. Practice and don't do the same things that didn't work.

Thanks again man. I've always just been a get PLEASE READ done kinda guy and do my thing. But that has caused some issues in our marriage so now it's about still being me but with the new insights and knowledge to implement in the relationship.

[Cat Familiar]

Doing less is an option and it takes much less work! 

[MontanaDude]

Doing less is an option and it takes much less work! 

Yep, especially if it works. More than anything it's a mindshift. I'm trying to do much more listening, understanding, and focusing on her needs right now. Getting back to an even keel, so far going well.

It's amazing how fast things can change day to day. I'm really trying to notice what works, when is a good time, how much to share, it's tricky at times!

Thanks!

[bugwaterguy]

My wife brought up divorce counseling again tonight.  We tried to find a mutual date, but could not find one.

Am I delusional for thinking that divorce counseling might lead to her getting insight into herself? 

All the problems in our relationship she has blamed on me.  She has said I am narcissist, emotionally abusive, autistic, and completely incapable of meeting her needs. I think this is projecting and blaming, but I keep second-guessing myself.  (3 therapist have said I am not, but none have seen me in interactions with my wife - How do I know it isn't me projecting?) I would like an unbiased opinion to determine if those things are true.

My wife has said she wants to protect the physical, mental, emotional, and financial health of our children.   I want that too.
 I am afraid the emotional abuse, that I believe my wife has perpetrated on me, will be transferred to the children without me as a mitigating factor.

My plan to present to the divorce counselor is to do a complete evaluation on both of us. 

Best case scenario:  She owns her part of the problems in our relationship and realizes she can do things to make it better, and does them.  And our marriage is healed.

2nd best scenario:  We both learn our part of the problems to stop them from happening in future relationships, and we keep our problems away from our kids.

3rd best scenario: This assessment provides me with information to protect our children and myself from my wife in the future.   I know “for sure” whether any of the labels my wife has about me are true.  I gain insight into myself that I can use to help recover.  All these things happen even if my wife gains zero insight.

Worst scenario:  The counselor finds me to be emotionally abusive, and I lose my kids. 

I would like opinions and thoughts on any of this.  I could use some insight.

[formflier]

  (3 therapist have said I am not, but none have seen me in interactions with my wife - How do I know it isn't me projecting?)

So...if the 4th agrees with the other three..will you be able to drop it?  I'm not asking about your wife..but you.

Have any of the other attempts at therapy resulted in your wife having insight into her part of the relationship?  Serious question...I want to make sure I have this right.

So...listening is good, "participating" and "going along" with unhealthy stuff is dubious. 

Would you let a lost person lead you out of the woods?  How would that turn out

Bottom line:  Listening to "I want a divorce" and expressing concern for her feelings is likely good.  Going to see people to help with divorce...not likely to help.

Best,

FF

[bugwaterguy]

So...if the 4th agrees with the other three..will you be able to drop it?  I'm not asking about your wife..but you.

Thanks for the great question.

Yes - I am 90% sure I am not what she accuses me of.  But if she tells her therapist that I am a covert narcissist, and if I am telling her my therapist that she is - who is right?  How do you know?  I will drop it if a therapist that sees both of us makes a diagnosis.  This is for me.