BPD Trait?-Never Can Be Wrong

[deadradiance]

I'd like to take a poll and ask if anyone knows a BPD that is capable of admitting when they behaved poorly or messed up.  Can they own up and apologise for their behavior?

My mother has BPD.  I'm not exaggerating when I say she NEVER acknowledges her mistakes.  Be they little or small.  If anyone tries to talk about it or resolve things with her it becomes clear quickly that she refuses to entertain the notion that she may have done something wrong, rude, or hurtful.  This can be something big, like smashing dishes, slapping someone in the face, stealing, behaving in host of abusive ways... .or something small, such as she forgot to feed the cats.  She will deny it all.  Any insinuation she did something that wasn't right (no matter how insignificant) she will ferociously deny and become enraged.  I've known my mother for almost 3 decades and she has never once in her life been able to own her behavior, let alone apologise.  When she does apologise it is always the "I'm sorry You" variety and it is like she comopletely edits out of existence the things she does.  She has BPD and has all the other traits.  She's moody. Throws tantrums.  Easily grows resentful and bitter if not the center of attention.  Physically and emotionally abusive.  Charming and vivacious after her abusive outbursts, pretends they never happened.  She is not a stupid woman by any means in her professional life, but its another matter at home when it comes to her personality and the way she refuses to deal in reality.  Its as if she is a spoiled toddler and can never be wrong, points the blame at innocents, pouts, throws hissy fits, full bodied tantrums, destroys everything to get her way.  Will not allow anyone to reason with her about her behavior.  Will restort to suicide threats to prevent people from holding her accountable for her actions if tantrums, physical abuse, and rage didn't stop them.  She pulls out the self-pity and empty suicide threats as a last resort.  Of course it works like a charm.  Everyone redirects from addressing her destructive behavior and starts to resassure and comfort her instead.

The most frustrating and baffling trait of this BPD however is not the abusive acting out.  It is the total denial of her behaviors.  Total denial of any wrongdoing.  This is someone who cannot accept responsability for her actions, she cannot even see that she has done anything wrong.  She will deny reality, project, lie in order to preseve this idea of herself as Never Wrong.  Always Right.

What is this and is it present in all cases of BPD?  This is not someone who occassionally has problems owning their behavior, but someone who will defy reality and turn it upside down in order to Always Be in the Right. 

This to me is the cause of all the other BPD symptoms.  This need to be right at all times means they have to go into denial and project awful things onto their loved ones in order to preseve this false image of themselves. 

*My mother was spoiled as a child.  She was the only girl with a much older brother and used to being the center of attention.  My grandparents adored her.  She was never disciplined.  Ever.  My mom brags about that to this day.  My grandparents are the most decent loving, and yes over indulging people ever.  No doubt if they raised me I would be a spoiled brat as well.  They conditioned her to expect to be the center of attention and to never have to face consequences.  Whenever their were problems they would overlook them, and if a neighbor confronted them about some mischief or bullying, my grandparents would defend her and deny her part in it.  They were the most loving parents (and wonderful grandparents) but they adored my mother and were totally absent on disciplining.  As a result she is a grown woman who has a low frustration tolerance, throws tantrums, abuses others or slips into self pitying despair over things a normal person wouldn't be bothered by.

I call it the spoiled brat disorder.  It sounds harsh, but it is accurate.  These are people who still behave like toddlers, with a toddler's expectations.  When things don't go their way they react just like a toddler would.  And they have a toddler's sense of responsability afterwards--NONE.

They take no responsability for their atrocious behavior. Instead they make it worse.  Lie, deny, cry, wail, or lash out and  abuse.  Or make up stuff to cast the blame onto someone else for things they did themselves.  Only a toddler behaves like this when you confront them about some misdeed on their part. 

Does anyone have experience with a BPD who was able to admit what they did and be accountable for their behavior?  Or do all of them have this problem?

[RubyTuesday]

The only time my BPD mom has ever apologized to me for her behavior is when she is backed against the wall and is forced to.  If she has screwed up and let someone else see her terrible behavior, then she will apologize to me, acting "oh so remorseful."  She thinks her apologies will make everything alright. Her apologies mean nothing to me.

[Sasha026]

I cannot believe that you call BPD "Spoiled Brat Disorder" because that's exactly what I used to call it before I knew what this disorder was all about! I've never heard anyone but my family refer to it the same way - but it's so true!

My mother falls into the same category, however, her parents died when she was 3 and 8 respectively and no one ever spoiled her. She was orphaned at 8 years old with no one but her older siblings to depend on. Everyone was poor at that time, so they shuffled her from one brother to a sister to another sister. All who took responsibility for her couldn't wait to get rid of her. She stole, triangulated, gossiped, threw tantrums and made everyone's life miserable. When everyone was happy, she was miserable. I've heard stories that she used to run away and make everyone look for her. She did this once at a wedding, ruining the whole day for everyone. She did this when she was in her 20s. She also used to do this to me when I was a child, hiding in the coat racks watching me wander all over the department store, hysterical for my mommy.

My aunt (her older sister) used to call her a spoiled brat. She did exactly the same things that your mother did. The tantrums, melodramas and abusive behavior were exactly the same as your mother! After she was married, she had a new baby to torture - me. Ain't I lucky being born to that witch?

Another thing, she never, never, never took responsibility for her bad behavior. The description that you posted could be a description of my mother - word for word. She is the consummate martyr, always being wronged, never in the wrong!

How does one woman, spoiled by her parents and another woman, left orphaned at the young age of eight, have the exact same personality? Amazing isn't it?

Thank you for posting this.

[boatingwoman]

I had this conversation again today with my cousin, who is convinced that swBPD is simply a Spoiled brat who calculates and consciously chooses to behave the way she does.

[luv2takpics]

Im all my life I've never heard my uBPDm say, "I'm sorry." NEVER. Not even sarcastically.

[Mom2MyKids]

I'm convinced that my mother has NPD, not BPD, but she's right up there with the others.  She does not apologize or if she does, she apologizes for making a mistake.  I'll give an example.  Most others here know that our estrangement really started 2 years ago when (after 14 years of borrowing thousands of dollars and not giving it back) my parents showed up here for Christmas with no way to pay for their hotel and no return ticket home and no money except for $250 cash in their pockets.  Their checking was overdrawn over $1000 and they have zero credit which means no emergency cards.  The reservation at a nice hotel was for 16 days and the desk clerk needed a credit card to put a hold for the room.  She knew they had no money and she knew I would not say yes if she had asked before they left home if they could use my hotel to hold the room at the hotel, so they came anyway and once they were here (2 states away, no car either), that they would need to use my credit card.  I did not allow it, even for just a hold, knowing they would get paid their monthly income at the end of their stay, to pay for the bill.  I knew I would somehow get stuck with the bill on my credit card because by authorizing the hold, I am also authorizing the charge.  They tried to swindle me and by "they" I mean, my mom.  My dad is handicapped and I don't even know how much he knows let alone how much planning she had done for that trip.  She was just hoping I guess.  She was planning to get here, THEN ask so I wouldn't have a choice but to say yes.  Well, I said no, left them in a pickle, we ended up buying them plane tickets to go home instead (another reason she was pissed) and in the end, she said "I guess it was poor planning on my part."  So, did she "own" it?  No, she acted like she was owning a mistake, like a miscalculation.  Did she actually say sorry?  Of course not.  She would never say sorry for anything.

They don't apologize because it means admitting a fault or admitting that they are wrong and they can never be wrong.  It would destroy their self image to admit they were wrong.  I have heard of some people admitting they were wrong and apologizing, but it seems more of a martyr and a desperate plea for someone not to abandon them.  I don't think my mom is afraid of anyone abandoning her or maybe she is so terrified that she just alienates everyone before they can abandon her.  I don't know. 

You might want to look up NPD because your mother could have both.  You never know.

I was thinking about this topic recently and decided that my mother's lack of personal responsibility is the main symptom of her problem.  Her problem is narcissism.  The main symptom is lack of personal responsibility.  The consequences are failed relationships.

Problem:  Narcissism

Main Symptom:  Lack of personal responsibility

Consequences:  Failed relationships and financial failure (evictions, closed accounts, no credit)

[boatingwoman]

Nonsis tried to get swBPD to apologize for pushing her while pregnant two years ago (swBPD is now pregnant and was ragging on non sis about how people need to be nice to her since SHE is now pregnant) and swBPD said she was sorry for "the kitchen" (the incident happened in the kitchen).

She never would say "I'm sorry I pushed you.". It was only she was sorry for "the kitchen".

She will apologize, but never admit to the offense.  She will apologize like she is sorry we are mad at her.  Or she is sorry for all the stuff.  But she will never implicate herself in anything specific.

[LightBulbIsOn]

There is no sincere I'm Sorry with a BPD.  If you do manage to get one out of them (the equivalent of seeing Sasquach) its so coated with evil goo and certainly not an admission of any wrongdoing.  No good comes from a Sasquach coated in evil goo. 

[parent of bpd daughter]

YES! This is a BPD trait for sure. I am sandwiched between a mother with BPD/NPD and 1 older daughter with same - Dx BPD but I see NPD traits as well.

NEITHER HAS EVER SAID "I AM SORRY" FOR anything and  never will - they are incapable. I don't think my mom was spoiled as a child - they were very poor - BUT the entire family ALWAYS makes excuses for her crazy and dangerous behavior. My own daughter was not spoiled either - so I do not think they are ACtually Spoiled Brats - they just ACT like it because they have the emotional maturity of a toddler.

Something in their brain is broken - they Cannot process adult concepts like personal responsibility or accountability.

So yes - I see those traits in both my mother and my daughter - it is a sad place for me to be - having to always accept the blame for anything that goes wrong - and when I don't - my daughter plays the suicide card and we're back to square 1.

I don't think BPD's are capable of remorse or guilt - it's no small wonder my mother didn't kill me - she did attempt when I was young. I have nightmares that my daughter will hurt someone too - because she has no personal accountability - it's always someone else's fault.

[irishbear99]

My uBPDm apologizes all the time... .if you can call it that.  Her new waif persona has taken hold now that she's older and she revels in "martyring" herself to play up the uberwaif.  

"I'm sorry.  I guess everyone else would be better off without me."

"I'm such an awful person for doing that - I wish I was dead!"

"I know I'm a bad mother.  I'm just going to go kill myself so everyone can be happy."



 

So in the strictest sense, she readily admits when she acts poorly or does something wrong.  However, she uses her "apology" as a way to garner sympathy and fish for reassurance.  

":)on't say that; you're a good mother!".  

Ironically, she hasn't threatened to kill herself in front of me since the time I responded to her "everyone would be happier without me" with "well, I can't speak for everyone... ."

[deadradiance]

Wow... .everyone's experience is the same. 

[Go Fish]

I'd just like to add though that although the spoiled brat is certainly the behavior, that I see a string genetic component in my BPDh family, and I think the indulgence response may be the overwhelmed parent giving up in the face of the strength of the tantrums. Plus they are manipulative. I do see the family conditioning too, the circumstances that lead to the child becoming the center of attention. I have to be careful with my own children because I can see how easy it is to fall into this trap, when your spouse has BPD. It's a cycle I see across 3 or more generations.

[kittykat63]

i have to come to accept that i will never get an apology from my mum. in the summer i answered the phone to her and all she said was "you little sht" then put the phone down. she was upset and angry about something- but this isnt the way to behave. i never got an apology when she had clamed down- just like al the other things... .it will never ever happen.

but i will get a bx of shopping- she will try and shove mney in my direction all the time- constantly- to appease her guilt and to make up for her mental illness.

this is a mental illness. and its not spoilt brat syndrome... .LOL, but i totally understand how you come t this conclusion- there cant be any of us here who has not thought this too... .this conditin stems from the opposite- their needs werent met as kids- so they grow up with a sense of entitlement.

with this cndition- it means they dont learn social clues and lessons like normal people do. and their emotional age is very young.

i think giving an apolgy udermines them- it feels like their final loss of dignity- its bad enough that they have to suffer frm this disorder- why should they apologies for it all the time- if they said sorry after every bad thing they did- they would be saying sorry all the time- and to be fair no person should have to go around apologising fr who they are.

i do believe its best to accept you wnt get an apology and remorse will come in other ways.

[healinghome]

i think an apology is feeling regret for the actions taken that caused pain for another.  it involves learning from a situation or mistake made, reolizing the right course of action and accepting that this wasn't taken.

it involves growing through these lessons and learning.  BPDs are not capable of change.  they are like a record stuck in a groove.  just yesterday my bf with BPD put some hot food in a cool bag i packed for a day out.  i removed it and asked why he did it.  he totally lost it. it was a total over reaction involving shouting and speeding about in the car, beeping and shouting at random people in his way.  it was both unnerving and abusive.  i said to him that it was just a mistake, everyone makes them, its normal.  but he refused to admit it and continued to behave like a madman.  i'm looking forward to the day i can leave this relationship.  i won't miss him.

BPDs are incapable of love, compassion, and learning.  they have arrested emotional development and are the emotional age of toddlers going through the narcissistic phase of life.  they are stuck and this is unnatural and uncomfortable for nons to endure.

[GeekyGirl]

I've never heard my uBPD mother say the words, "I'm sorry," either, but she demands apologies from others. I think in her own mind that she's always right and apologizing is means admitting wrongdoing and losing power. You all can relate.

Interestingly, I've heard my mother refer to many other folks as "spoiled brats," and now I'm wondering if she sees herself that way.

[littleln]

My BPDmil is very high functioning. On occasion, rare occasion, she seems to get an inkling of how bad her behavior is, but still makes no effort to stop. One day I was driving her somewhere out of the blue she says, "I know I'm not nice to you, I wish I could be" and that was it. Last she ever said of it. Now she had actually been a bit nicer, but its surface only. She still trashes me behind my back and instead of sending me nasty emails, she sends nasty emails about me to other people.

Now, if she makes a small error, she is able to admit it sometimes depending on her mood. One time she made muffins at our house and she overfilled the pan causing batter to bubble out and onto the oven. She did tell us an apologize. Other times in similar happenings, like when she melted three of my daughters sippy cups in the dishwasher by putting them on the bottom rack when I told her not to, she claimed I did it. Seems to depend on her mood.

[ninjacat]

Mother has said sorry in the past but it's never really an apology.  It's more like:  "I'm sorry if that hurt your feelings BUT" or "I'm sorry that I spoiled you so much that you turned into such a brat."  Mother will only apologize if she's done something wrong and she's NEVER done anything wrong in her life... .ever.  I take that back- I think she did apologize once when she accidentally dropped a jar and it fell on my foot.  That's it. I'm surprised that I didn't get yelled at for taking up that space at the same time the jar fell. 

[hwc9]

My uBPDm is just like many of you have described.  I think this sort of behavior is part of the reason why I have never been able to actually confront her about the things she does.  She is unwilling to ever see the other side - her negative contributions to situations.

It is because of this I ALWAYS feel like I am wrong and constantly second guess myself since I (we?) have all been conditioned since day one that the BPD's in our lives could not possibly be wrong.  And thus, I am a chronic apologizer in every part of my life.

I think it is a BPD trait.

[Raven22]

I'm going thru a lot now with my BPD and NPD parents and Not OncE in the drama of the past year have they uttered anything close to WE ARE SORRY!

Closest I got was we apologize for any "shortcomings"

Give me a break!

So I'm on board with this being a major trait too, hell for me had they been able to admit wrongdoing and truly apologize I may have met then halfway, but no!

[Mom2MyKids]

One pattern I am seeing is that some of the BPD's mentioned here (or NPD in my case) can only sometimes MAYBE kinda sorta admit a mistake.  Overfilling the muffin pans is a mistake.  Taking money and refusing to give it back is not a mistake. 

Anyone and everyone ought to be able to apologize for making a mistake.  It's not admitting bad behavior.  Making a mistake is different than making a bad choice.

My mom turns her bad choices into mistakes like she didn't mean to do something.  I once asked if she would apologize for taking so much money from dh and I.  She said "For what?  I didn't do it on purpose."  Well, she did do it on purpose.  She just didn't know the outcome would be so bad.  She thought she'd be able to pay it back, but in the end she didn't have the money she had hoped for, so to her it was bad luck and not her fault and not intentional.  But she also lied to us about the situation in the first place, which, in my opinion, was a bad choice.  Misrepresenting the situation was fraud and that was not a mistake.

They can't admit bad behavior as easily as admitting a mistake, although some can't even admit a mistake.  Sad really.

[rehtorb70]

For pretty much anyone, it's emotionally painful to face the fact that you are wrong about something.  I guess that for BPD people, who are super-sensitive, it's extremely painful. 

[Cassy]

So true. Mother will stand by with a smug grin while others (like her daughter) take the blame for her actions. It's like she's won or something, to her. The most blatant example of this was last year when mother made a post on FB and a few people responded.

I piped in and said something about it being inappropriate. She said, "well, don't tell me, I've never said such a thing." I pointed out that is exactly what she said only 3 or 4 posts earlier. My aunt then also tried to explain that is exactly what she said and it was all there for us to see.

She said she didn't always type what she meant and it was just like people like "us" to go with what she wrote rather than what she meant. Try reasoning with THAT.

She then deleted the thread, LOL.

[sunnyland]

Has the BPD ever been able to admit to their behavior? 

Nope. Never. Any "apology" given is convieniently crafted to make it seem like what happened, never actually happened, and that it was a misunderstanding or the other person's fault.  She always edits out what she did. She makes it sound like she is being considerate by apologising, but it is never an apology for the rude or abusive actions she commited.  She completely refuses to acknowledge her part.

Its very damaging to have a mother that will steal, then turn around and deny it.

Will lose her temper and hit someone, then turn around and deny it. 

Will throw a hissy fit but deny it.

Theres never any accountability or remorse because they can't admit what they've done. They're never wrong. 

Usually there is outrage and denial.  However, when she does bring herself to apologise, it is always worded to exlude the very behavior for which she needs to be apologetic.  It's always "We" had a disagreement (when the only disagreement is over her denials of what she did and her inability to face up to it.  Her original tantrum or cruelty was not sparked by another party, it was not a two way "disagreement", it was just her, losing it out of the blue in a sudden fit of rage.  Or her stealing.  She completely denies her own behaviors. The original thing for which she needs to express remorse is NEVER ACKNOWLEDGED. 

Its an amazing capablity to suddenly snap and smash dishes at a child without warning, and then turn around 10 minutes later and apologise with a sweet smile "I'm sorry We had a fight." 

No one fought with her!  The child was just eating dinner one minute, and the next enduring a rage attack.  The kid just froze, sat there and took it.  But in the mother's mind it was a two way thing.  She can't admit that she lost it and irrationally took out her rage on someone. 

She can't name her actual behavior.  She would never say "I'm sorry for throwing dishes."  Any action on her part that is unsavory is totally edited out of her mind. 

Its always the other persons fault. Or it never happened.  Never in her life has she been able to acknowledge her part.  And its not like these are subtle behaviors that are easy to forget about.  They are blatant, violent, behaviors that have deep negative consequences on the people around her. 

[sunnyland]

There is no low too low a BPD will stoop to in order to deny responsability for their own actions.  They will lie, deny, project, rage.  Usually people just back of when she denies it and gets angry.  But if someone persists in getting to the truth, she will become physically abusive.  She'll throw things at you.  She'll hit and slap.  Tear you down and bring up all sorts of things that have nothing whatsoever to do with the issue at hand.  She can't bear to be accountable for what she does.  She will go to any length to deny it.  They refuse accountability at all costs.  Most people stop there, but if you are still trying to reason with her to acknowledge her behavior, or show her a recording of her committing the very acts she claims she never did, then she will bring out the big guns and threaten suicide.  Never is personal accountability entertained.  And this could be over a small issue, but if it in any way reflects poorly on her, she will go to these lengths to deny it.  These are the types of people that are capable of murder/suicide.  They'd rather take it there than admit what they did.  And this can be over trifling matters or serious things that damage other people.  In all situations they will deny what they've done.  They can't admit it.  Therefore there is never true remorse.  Not for the things they've done.  I think the inability to be "wrong" or above reproach is the most dangerous apsect of BPD.  They abuse, but can never see it for what it is, because the can never be wrong.

This is a stunning pathological need to always be right.  The scope of this need is so stunning to me.  How does a person get to believe this about themselves?  Narcissists do the same thing.  They both deny their actions and re-write reality to bolster this image of themselves that they can't possibly have done anything wrong. 

[alkaline]

Oh my parents are NEVER wrong.  NEVER.

I feel like I got the super whammy dose of Narc.

My uNPDfather was the big boss at his job AND is the mayor and held office for close to 25 years - and was always the most popular person running.  He is literally SURROUNDED by "yes" men.

So for little ol' me to try and claim ANYTHING he (or she) says or does might be wrong?  Well, it's blasphemy.

[Cassy]

Well, I'm sure they're sorry... .sorry "WE" feel this way. Dontcha love that? "I'm sorry you feel that way." or "I'm sorry for whatever you think I've done."

[sea_owl]

I'm not entirely sure what my mom is, although I've sort of figured on her as uBPD (but maybe not).  She is also the type who, when she says, "I'm sorry," it's an, "I'm sorry BUT." 

But that being said, there have been two times when she has genuinely regretted what she's done.  BUT in those cases, she never apologized, only went and shut herself off from the rest of the world. 

[TenaciousMe]

Like Irishbear, my BPDm is super waify- which has only gotten pronounced since I went no contact - which was prompted by the last of her rages that I could take.

Her apologies (via text) since then have been something like: "I'm sorry you hate me so much. I'm sorry I disgust you so. Pretty soon I'll be dead and you won't have to worry about coming to see me anymore." etc. etc. ad nauseum.

In the past when I have called her bad behavior she just flatly denies it. For ex. I bite my nails when I'm around her. It's my coping technique. When she sees me doing it, she smacks my hand - just as she did when I was 9. She did this to me when I was 41 - while i was driving- and I said, "please don't hit me." she said, "I didn't hit you!"

[todayistheday]

Re: BPD Trait?-Never Can Be Wrong

I had an experience with that just a few weeks ago.  I was at my parents house for NINE days, the most I have been since that first summer in college when I decided that it was summer school from then on.

I was there because my Dad was "sick" and my uBPD Mom was feeling it a burden to care for him and letting him know it.  He had a back problem that suddenly got worse and caused partial paralysis.  You'd have thought nobody had ever had to live with someone who needed a walker before, and of course, it was all about HER and he was such a burden. I was supposed to go just before his surgery but I got some desperate e-mails from Dad about how bad things were.  So I went to help take care of him until his surgery date.

The day before his surgery, he was supposed to do the shower with the special soap.  Mom kept asking him where it was.  He said that she had it, and she kept raging, insisting that he did, even when he pointed out that he could not have possibly had it since he had both hands on his walker the whole time.

After about an hour of her rage, she found it -- in her purse.  She was standing right in front of me when she did.  I don't know what got into me, I usually cower from her and don't do anything to set her off.  But out of my mouth popped "Now apologize" in such a way as a parent would say to a child.  She screamed at me "I WILL NOT".   

I was spending most of my time in my Dad's man-cave with him.  I went back up there, and though I should not have, I told him what happened and he just rolled his eyes.   About 20 minutes later, she came to the room where we were, opened the door, and screamed "I apologize for... .(I don't remember the rest)" then slammed it and left.

Dad and I both looked at each other in disbelief, but then said "She only did that because she knew you'd tell me what happened." 

[sandpiper]

Along the way, in one of the books that I've read on BPD, the reason given for this was that the BPD's sense of self is far too fragile for them to admit that they are less than perfect. Because they are so 'in the moment', if they allow themselves to believe that they were wrong about one thing, their extremes of emotion and lack of a stable sense of self mean that they'll switch into believing they are 'All Bad' and will then beat themselves up for it. That's when you see the cutting and the self-harm/risk taking/suicide attempts kick in.

I saw Evilsis do this a lot when she was younger. Once she teamed up with Evil Genius (she married her drug dealer) she took on a lot of his narcissism and anti-social/psychopath traits and I think between the defenses she learned from him and the years of drug taking, she's learned to get past that.

I don't know. I've been no contact for nearly 6 years so I don't get to see her in action - I do know that she's become better at manipulating people so if she did go through one of her depressive 'I'm all bad phases' that I witnessed in her teen & young adult years, I wouldn't know if it was sincere or just a ploy to get her way.

I do know that when we were younger, and before Evil Genius came on the scene, those episodes of 'I'm an awful human being' were a genuine dive into the dark depths of her damaged soul. What happens inside there since Evil Genius came along with his needles and pills to mess up her brain function even further, who knows?