Figuring out what I've learned

[Our abuse recovery guide]

My guard is down a bit so I'm writing this post to keep a dialog open about whether I am about to learn another lesson or if I've actually got a grip on good boundaries with my BPD stepdaughter (25).

Feel free to join me as I either celebrate or kick myself. This whole thing is going down in 5 months so I'll be using this thread to keep on eye on me 

This first post is back story. If you know it already, skip to the second post which is what I'm keeping an eye on.

Back story: I have a BPD brother, BPD waif grandmother (deceased), and a dad with narcissist traits (golden child). My mother is an adult child, something a therapist told her after a handful of family therapy about 30 years ago. I went on to marry then divorce n/BPDx 12 years ago and got a lot of therapy to help change my family script.

BPD family has been a huge part of that journey.

Then, I married H, a lovely man I absolutely love and adore (who seems to have parents with PD traits if not full-blown), who had been married to a BPDx wife.

H and I are both recovering codependents  We are in a great place and have both implemented a lot of boundaries. If I'm being honest, I am nailing the boundaries a bit better than him. I've had way more therapy.

H has three adult kids, including SD25 who has all the signs of quiet BPD. Finding out that she was BPD when she lived with us on and off nearly broke me and without therapy, would've ruined my marriage to H. What I didn't learn during my divorce from n/BPDx, I was pretty much forced to learn with SD25.

I often tell people SD25 represents my best work. I have never worked so hard on skills to neutralize a difficult relationship as I have with her. Nor have I ever met anyone so covertly aggressive.

[livednlearned]

My guard is down a bit so I'm writing this post to keep a dialog open about whether I am about to learn another lesson or if I've actually got a grip on good boundaries with my BPD stepdaughter (25).

Feel free to join me as I either celebrate or kick myself. This whole thing is going down in 5 months so I'll be using this thread to keep on eye on me 

This first post is back story. If you know it already, skip to the second post which is what I'm keeping an eye on.

Back story: I have a BPD brother, BPD waif grandmother (deceased), and a dad with narcissist traits (golden child). My mother is an adult child, something a therapist told her after a handful of family therapy about 30 years ago. I went on to marry then divorce n/BPDx 12 years ago and got a lot of therapy to help change my family script.

BPD family has been a huge part of that journey.

Then, I married H, a lovely man I absolutely love and adore (who seems to have parents with PD traits if not full-blown), who had been married to a BPDx wife.

H and I are both recovering codependents  We are in a great place and have both implemented a lot of boundaries. If I'm being honest, I am nailing the boundaries a bit better than him. I've had way more therapy.

H has three adult kids, including SD25 who has all the signs of quiet BPD. Finding out that she was BPD when she lived with us on and off nearly broke me and without therapy, would've ruined my marriage to H. What I didn't learn during my divorce from n/BPDx, I was pretty much forced to learn with SD25.

I often tell people SD25 represents my best work. I have never worked so hard on skills to neutralize a difficult relationship as I have with her. Nor have I ever met anyone so covertly aggressive.

[Notwendy]

I will chime in after you post the second one.

As someone who has also done a lot of work on co-dependency- the term "progress, not perfection" comes to mind. As much as I have gained skills, sometimes, BPD mom's manipulations can still go over them. I think we need to not be too hard on ourselves.

Some of BPD mom's behaviors are overt, but many of them are covert. She carefully sets the stage, aligns her people, designs the story. She doesn't reveal what she wants to me- keeping me in the dark is one of her ways of getting what she wants. I don't ever know fully what she's up to.

I don't think like that, and probably neither do you. I think everyone has a public persona to some extent. I am not as casual with people at work, but still, much of what other people see is consistent. I don't really think about how to set the stage, present a certain persona. I am just me. My mother on the other hand chooses her persona- chooses what someone else sees and so remains in control.

So do the best you can, but if it isn't perfect- it's still good!

[livednlearned]

Now and next:

H and I moved 3000 miles away two years ago. In September, we'll be flying back to our last town for a wedding and to see friends. I'm excited!

All three of H's adult kids live about 3 hours away from the town where we'll be staying for 10 days. H wanted to rent a house and have all of us stay in the house together for the long weekend.

Original me: do whatever to keep everyone happy. Put myself last.
Healing me: don't do anything I don't want to do. Be rigid, don't bend, feel guilty.
More recent me: use skills wisely. Be reasonable, flexible and use my ninja boundary skills.

I cycle through all three versions in different relationship scenarios to some degree or another but for the most part I am nailing it with the recent me   Mostly what happens is I get sucked into a whirlpool but I am able to get out pretty quick. I don't necessarily avoid the whirlpools as well as I' like, but seem to be pretty good at using skills to get to safety without a ton of damage.

I don't know if that's as good as it will get? I'd like to avoid the whirlpools altogether but they seem to show up in so many different guises.

All this is to say that when H suggested we get a house for all five of us, I immediately went into a defensive crouch and strategized.

I do all the travel arrangements. I could avoid the long weekend and shift our stay so that the wedding goes first then we stay for a week. That would mean less SD25 but also less time with my friend getting married in the week before her wedding.

At this point, I am going between healing me and new me in this inner dialog.

Healing me: hell no to staying in the same place with SD25.
New me: maybe I can contain the exposure to SD25.

Healing me: get multiple hotel rooms. It's expensive and worth it.
New me: maybe I have good enough verbal boundaries and can cohabitate with SD25 briefly.

Healing me: H can drive up and visit SD25 and S22 and I'll stay in town.
New me: let H know I will spend some time together with SD25 and have others plans too.

I ended up going with new me thinking. Wish me luck.

We rented a home with 3 bedrooms and a couch for S22 (if he comes, which is a question mark). We arrive Friday, S25 drives down and will arrive early afternoon Sat. That works out to two dinners, two nights, two breakfasts and lunches, and only one full day.

H talks about the things we'll do together and I am eliminating some of those in my head, waiting until we are closer to have plans that break up too much time with SD25.

The kicker is this. The house is two doors down from where I used to live. The same house where I lived with n/BPDx. The same house I fled 12 years ago. The same house I thought n/BPDx was going to kill himself and S20 (then 10) after n/BPDx experienced some kind of psychotic episode that eventually led to me getting full custody.

Either I am a new person and have the self-care skills and healed scars to put myself into this situation or I am one dumb lady.

This is where I'm going to write out my thoughts as I navigate this. I know I'll survive SD25, it's more about what I'm doing to thread the needle when it comes to conflict (either with H, with SD25, or just in a general sense as I think about social niceties and whether I can or should or have to do something.

Lately, I notice how much I carry in my body when stressful family things are going down, usually with me not using my skills to practice self-care and in general trying to ignore dysfunction because it's easier.

If I get a back spasm from this, then these choices really do affect my health in undeniable ways.

[livednlearned]

As much as I have gained skills, sometimes, BPD mom's manipulations can still go over them. I think we need to not be too hard on ourselves.

Same with SD25. I am half the problem if I'm being honest, in terms of letting guilt drive me.

I can assert boundaries, and I still feel guilt which I override in the more important actions but then let get the better of me in language.

For example, I'll have a physical boundary with SD25 but then we're in the same room later and I offer to do something nice without her even asking, simply because I feel guilty, knowing it will make H happy.

Then I kick myself because the gesture came from a transactional place and wasn't genuine.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Same with SD25. I am half the problem if I'm being honest, in terms of letting guilt drive me.

I can assert boundaries, and I still feel guilt which I override in the more important actions but then let get the better of me in language.

For example, I'll have a physical boundary with SD25 but then we're in the same room later and I offer to do something nice without her even asking, simply because I feel guilty, knowing it will make H happy.

Then I kick myself because the gesture came from a transactional place and wasn't genuine.

Wanting to make your husband happy sounds genuine to me.

I smiled, reading your post, not because what you wrote is funny, but I love your sense of humor.

I also have back spasms, and had one just prior to going back to live with me uBPDm for a month... (That was dumb). I thought she had changed, I thought I had changed, I thought we could have a normal relationship and I needed help with my children, time to work on my thesis, to be in this specific area to look for a house because we were moving. Boy, was I wrong ..

But ! If it is any consolation : I was able to hold it together for about two weeks before reverting back to the terrorized 8 years old rocking herself in a foetal position in the corner of a room. So I think you can make it for one week... Albeit, being closed to your old house might be a bit triggering...

We will all be here to support you through this! As long as the board stays up...

[Turkish]

Staying near the house you survived, ugh. That's a whole level of stress I would imagine even if it's been years.

For example, I'll have a physical boundary with SD25 but then we're in the same room later and I offer to do something nice without her even asking, simply because I feel guilty, knowing it will make H happy.

This is interesting. It seems like covert/internal/auto-triangulation? Though avoiding possible conflict based upon past experiences, you are wise enough to see it as:

Then I kick myself because the gesture came from a transactional place and wasn't genuine.

Because you don't like her due to her being a source of pain? What transaction isn't transactional?

It's not the same, but I'm reminded of my old boss at the Cafe where I worked as a teenager. It was rare we'd get prickly customers, but she'd be nice as pie, like, "the meals are on us, thank you!" She told me being nice confused and disarmed them. Ninja skills. At the least, it got rid of them. Yet you can't get rid of her.

I'm reminded of the Bible verse, Romans 12:20:

"...“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
    if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”

Not to say that she's your enemy, but certainly adversarial. Maybe it's not as workable with a pwBPD traits.

[GaGrl]

I am embarking on a road trip on Wednesday to visit my husband's two oldest children. I love them, and they both are damaged from his marriage to The Dark Princess (uBPD/NPD exwife). We do our best. It's not comfy.

[Notwendy]

I offer to do something nice without her even asking, simply because I feel guilty, knowing it will make H happy.

I catch myself doing things like this.

A couple of thoughts:

One issue is that - this is your H's child, and he still has a bond with her, so if he wants to stay in a house together, it's hard for you to step in on this. If you did, he'd be in the position to choose between you- and also this becomes triangle dynamics.

It looks as if your H is going to be more susceptible to her manipulations. She's his daughter. The dynamics between them are long standing. I think all families have their own quirky dynamics- some more than others. The dynamics in my H's family are less obvious or difficult than mine, but I could see him get "drawn into" his role when we visited, and he wasn't even aware of it as it felt normal to him. He can also see how I respond when I am around my BPD mother. So again- progress, not perfection if you see your H less able to resist the dynamics with his D.

When it is a short visit, my default is to appeasement. I don't think defaulting to "co-dependent" is a good idea in the long run, but I think of the time span and also the alternative. For only two days, I'd rather not have to be dealing with rages or other conflict. Now for large boundaries, I do hold them, but when I do visit BPD mom, I try to avoid conflict as it's a short time.

One thing I did learn in work on co-dependency was owning my choices. If I choose to appease, that's different from feeling "she made me do it". Albeit- the choices may not be easy ones, and defaulting to appeasement feels like being co-dependent, but the time span is the difference for me. Appeasement is not the best choice if two people are living together but for a short visit, it might be.

Do not rescue your H. This is his daughter. Don't step in to be nice and appease her to keep the peace. You know that natural consequences are a good reminder here. Let him experience this relationship as it is and let him deal with it. If it goes well, then good. If not, then he may rethink the idea of everyone staying together if the occasion comes up. After the visit, your H might be feeling emotionally worn out but if so, don't rescue him- let him be with that.

Self care comes to mind here. You all don't have to be together all the time. Let your H have some one on one time with his kids. He can take his D out to dinner, just the two of them. If you have some old friends- consider a "girls night out with them". Spend sometime with just yourself- go for a walk, get your nails done. Schedule some short breaks for just yourself.

Don't try to compete with her. She's going to act like Daddy's little girl and he's got a soft spot for that. With her having BPD- the act will probably be irritating to you. Likely he may be defaulting to appeasement as well, just to avoid issues for a couple of days. As long as she doesn't talk him into giving over your savings or something that could be hurtful to the two of you, try not to let this bother you. Emotionally she may still want a lot of attention.

Self care when you get home after the visit too- be good to yourself.

[livednlearned]

Wanting to make your husband happy sounds genuine to me.

I wish? I do love when he's happy. We have some history here with SD25 and the whole happy/not happy thing.

I also have back spasms, and had one just prior to going back to live with me uBPDm for a month...

Do you believe it's connected? For me, I do. Not sure my family is the source but they are certainly the lit match. I saw my uBPD brother after 10 years of disengagement, walked down a flight of stairs and it was like a guitar string snapped in my back.

I was able to hold it together for about two weeks

That's a long time, amen friend.

SD25 flew out for a week last summer and had to stay in a hotel. I find minutes with her to be tough, but even without a PD she's difficult.

Two weeks would be an eternity at this point. And I think I might be out of practice, so there would be a lot of catch-up trying to get my feed under me.

[livednlearned]

Staying near the house you survived, ugh. That's a whole level of stress I would imagine even if it's been years.

Yet I feel nothing ... I guess it could be different when we get there? I really don't know. I'm the one who booked it so that's my first mistake. I'll have no one to blame if it goes badly except me and myself 

It seems like covert/internal/auto-triangulation?

Ooo. Yes, internal auto-triangulation. I was hoping for authenticity but I seem to not be at that zen level just yet.

Because you don't like her due to her being a source of pain? What transaction isn't transactional?

I don't like how I give away the farm after having good boundaries. I read a quote about how you tell a lot about someone by how they treat people they don't like. Written better, but that's the gist.

Coming from dysfunction, and healing from it, why would I err on the side of making SD25 comfortable only because I did something as reasonable as set a boundary? Why is it hard to be authentic AND have boundaries?

I'm reminded of the Bible verse, Romans 12:20:

"...“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
    if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”

I love this.  

Not to say that she's your enemy, but certainly adversarial. Maybe it's not as workable with a pwBPD traits.

It seems to work when I have ways to let off some of the pressure that builds, and some of those exits will be closed to me.

[livednlearned]

One issue is that - this is your H's child, and he still has a bond with her, so if he wants to stay in a house together, it's hard for you to step in on this. If you did, he'd be in the position to choose between you- and also this becomes triangle dynamics.

We must be sharing the same pair of shoes. This is exactly it.

I set a boundary, she runs to H. He comes to me. It's much better than that now but the fury I feel when something slips through and plays out is just, wow.

It looks as if your H is going to be more susceptible to her manipulations.

Yes, and that's ok. We have worked hard on this. I have boundaries with him so I can have boundaries with her and he understands. Insisting that we all stay together is a bit of a step back in terms of where we got to after years of trying to find a balance. I think it's because she's saying, "LnL doesn't like me," and he knows it's about boundaries but wants to demonstrate a counter argument. 

When it is a short visit, my default is to appeasement. I don't think defaulting to "co-dependent" is a good idea in the long run, but I think of the time span and also the alternative.

That's a good way to think of it. Thanks for that insight. Deep down I want to be the difficult one for a change.

Do not rescue your H. This is his daughter. Don't step in to be nice and appease her to keep the peace. You know that natural consequences are a good reminder here. Let him experience this relationship as it is and let him deal with it.

I had this mostly down to a science but having moved so far away, I am rusty.

It's a good reminder about letting there be natural consequences.

I am terrific at putting people at ease and the other step kids like when I'm there. It creates jealousy for SD25 but the overall dynamic kind of sweeps the jealousy to the side.

You all don't have to be together all the time.

I could use some rock solid examples here. We will have one rental car, then SD25's car. Maybe SD28's.

H will often insist on having me go with him and SD25 because it's socially easier for him.

[Notwendy]

I want to be the difficult one for a change.

Me too! I have wondered what it must be like to be that way, but really, I couldn't do it- I couldn't treat someone else that way. I know from working on co-dependency that my tendency is to lean too far to the other direction- too accommodating, but the goal is to the middle. Still, I do wonder sometimes what it might be like to actually be the difficult one.

H will often insist on having me go with him and SD25 because it's socially easier for him.

This- this right here- shows the issue. This is the triangle. H knows his D is difficult and brings you into the triangle to make it easier for him. You endure the situation and then feel resentful.

I think this is the boundary to work on. It's his D, it's his decision to have this arrangement. Yes, you are one family and you will be pleasant to everyone, but it isn't your job to make things easier between them. IMHO- establishing the boundaries with him are the issue to work on and you can do this before the trip. This doesn't mean you don't do things together, or be supportive- this insisting you come along when you don't want to - that's the line between being supportive and taking care of his relationship with her for him.

I don't know what the itinerary is for the weekend- but one thing to do is schedule something for yourself and reserve the car. SD has a car and so she and your H can have that while you take the rental. Think of something you need to do ( even if it's sit in a coffee place by yourself for a bit). Do you need to shop for something? See an old friend? Visit a relative? Or not even something big- just say " I need to have the car from X time to X time" and sit in the car with a coffee.

When I visit BPD mother, this is not hard to arrange as I go out to get groceries and run other errands and I can have this time alone.  If I visit with my H, our families live close to each other and there was always some friction over how much time we spend with each of them, with him preferring his family. His role is golden child, "hero" and it's irritating to see him drawn into rescuing them. He also preferred to have me along, but I also felt obligated to see my family.

As much as my mother is difficult, I also didn't like the imbalance of preference. It was my H who had this idea that we had to stick together but eventually I would take the car and visit mine on my own while he stayed with his family. We each spent some time with family as a couple, but also not as a couple and during these times, I did spend some time by myself in a coffee shop. Yes, my H got irritated with this arrangement at first, but then adjusted.

This is subtle livedandlearned. It is possible to still be pleasant and do nice things for people but also easy to cross the line to over functioning. Your H may not even be aware of why he wants you there- but the key is- over functioning on your part helps him stay the "good guy" in this too.

So, I think setting an itinerary with your H, where you have the car for a scheduled time may be something you can do. What you do and where you go during that time is anything you want. You don't have to justify it.

[Notwendy]

I also don't stay with my BPD mother, and recently have coordinated visits with a sibling. Being alone with her is more of a potential for drama. The times I have been on my own, I have the car, I can "run an errand" if I need to.

I tend to over function with my H's family. He doesn't have a parent with BPD. His mother is towards the co-dependent side. I feel uncomfortable seeing her do everything and step in to help. H is the golden child, but also the hero- and so gets drawn into doing things- I think that my helping plays into that. When I visit my BPD mother, she expects me to do things for her but when H and I visited our own families, we each delt with our own dynamics.

What got interesting is that, once I started to visit my parents on my own, H spent more time with his family than with mine, and also I did too. Eventually we both have done more visiting our families on our own than together. While this trip is the two of you, it's also OK to not always do this together. Your H can visit on his own. He might not prefer it, but again, it's his daughter- and their relationship.

[pursuingJoy]

I've missed hearing from you lnl. 

BPD MIL also said, "pj just doesn't like me." My husband, hurt, reported this to me. He was hurt, because he believed it. The best thing I ever did was make some safe concessions and show kindness. Sure enough, H was witness to her snark and snide comments. He saw my kindness in the face of her rudeness and couldn't blame me anymore. Since the last time, I haven't been asked to see her. That was a happy outcome I didn't expect, because I'd done it for me, to test my growth. I'm not a hateful or cruel person. I am mature and compassionate and boundaries are a reflection of those qualities. I think you're doing this as much for you as you are for your H.

So I say bravo for taking this chance and trusting your New Me. You made a brave, wise and reasonable choice. Heap those burning coals. Of course you know we're here for you no matter what happens.

I suspect you'll be ok when you see the house you lived in. Memories, for sure, but I think it's just as likely that you'll be struck by your growth and strength more than anything.

[kells76]

I want to be the difficult one for a change... H will often insist on having me go with him and SD25 because it's socially easier for him.

The same tension in those two lines that stood out to Notwendy stood out to me, too.

You have an opportunity to allow yourself the experience of "being difficult" by stating "I'll be using the rental car on Tuesday around 2pm, see you guys when I get back", and seeing what you think about how that goes for you.

I also wonder if it's less "being difficult" and more "being the one who is allowed to have wants in public"?

really good to hear from you.

[livednlearned]

This is the triangle. H knows his D is difficult and brings you into the triangle to make it easier for him. You endure the situation and then feel resentful.

@notwendy, yes. There is also a secondary dynamic, which is to appease the narrative that "LnL doesn't like me." These two things go together. I guess the compromise I'm being asked to participate in is that this is a short visit, relatively speaking, so it makes me want to get very clear in my own mind how I want this visit to feel. I'm trying to figure out what is being authentic, and what is being reasonable. For me, being authentic = being difficult. I'm working on that, the feeling side. Because on the behavior/actions side I'm always courteous, polite, kind. Inside, 5 min feels like a lot with SD25. I am climbing out of my skin regardless of whether something is going down with her. It does make me feel rigid (like thinking so tactically about our how we interact) but maybe that's a feature in our relationship I have to accept.  

All of us (all kids plus me + H) saw each other last Oct at brother-in-laws for a birthday party and SD25 was at every mini-gathering during our 4 day visit. No matter who we were getting together with, SD25 was there -- invited by H. SD25 was like velcro at these gatherings. Sitting next to me in restaurants, seeking me out at parties, sticking near me on walks, etc. So H is having a great time and I am being monopolized by SD25.

If it's me, H, and S25 it's the opposite. She is velco on H, a different dynamic I find hard to tolerate because there is a silent treatment vibe (toward me) and a slightly icky inappropriate dynamic from SD25 toward H that is better than it used to be but still in the ballpark of weird.

@pj nice to see you too!

I have said to H "we don't have to all like each other, we just have to make it work," and he seems to acknowledge there is nothing to really fight here. However, it feels like "I" am the "we" that is making this work  

I'm so courteous to SD25. Friends I confide in say I am courteous to a fault with SD25.

The part I struggle with is self-care in these social moments that feel exploited by SD25. Right now, when I validate her, it is always with the goal of putting things back on her. If she tells me about how she's doing this or that, I will say, "You seem very proud of that, you look happy." Rather than, "Wow, great." Maybe it seems like a nuance but for some reason, it's important to the long-term dynamic we have. If I validate too much, an inch becomes a mile. I feel like I'm being used and dragged into a one-down position. It feels like: "You provide supply, we're in a social situation with few emergency exits. You're weak here."

There is zero question in my mind that all interactions with SD25 are a game. I am doing what I can with language to minimize whether or how much I play. Work in progress.

@kells76 I did myself a favor and reached out to a friend -- we used to have these relaxing 3 hour coffee/walks on Sundays and even though the visit is 5 months away, we put something on the calendar   And to be fair to H, he is super agreeable and understands (under the guise of me seeing friends, not me checking myself out of S25 interactions. I am more concerned he will feel the need to go for a jog and I will be in the house with SD25 alone. I won't be surprised if SD28 chooses to stay with friends -- she has done a lot of work on boundaries and she is probably the most assertive with SD25 of all of us. And it's a toss up if S22 will come down.

I can always say, "I'm going to take a nap" but I want to be able to be authentic and not make excuses to hide what I want and need because that's how I become a doormat. Maybe the compromise, if H leaves me with SD25, is to say, "I'm taking a time out to be in my room, see you tonight for dinner." I really have to think of this stuff in advance  

I'm back in touch with family and I really see how easy it is for me to take things in the chin because I'm the "reasonable, nice, police, courteous, gracious, tolerant" LnL.

I also wonder if it's less "being difficult" and more "being the one who is allowed to have wants in public"?

Yes. I feel that being gracious is perceived as a weakness between me and SD25 and can be exploited by H unless I am proactive.

It's why I have to think so hard in advance like this -- I don't want to feel like a doormat, much less be one. Even if doormatting incidents appear small, they are important to me. I'm trying to relearn a whole new way of being and all of these interactions, when successful, give me hope that I actually learned -- even internalized -- something.

[Notwendy]

I just realized how differently we interpreted "being difficult". I was thinking about that meaning raging and causing a scene! I think what you meant was to not be the one who accommodates everyone else. It's a work in progress but I do need to work on being more assertive and less accommodating.

I also wonder what it must be like to be the one who rages and acts out while everyone else does their bidding. I can't imagine being like that, yet, it's what my mother does and still, my father just complied. So yes, I do wonder, but I know I couldn't do that.

But asserting yourself- yes! We don't have to be doormats. I think taking breaks if you need them is being authentic. You don't need to say you are taking a nap. Just say you are tired and want to go to your room to lie down. "Tired" can mean "tired of the drama" - they don't need to know that, and truthfully, being with your SD 25 is emotionally draining. So go lie down, read something, make some tea, watch a video. 

[livednlearned]

I just realized how differently we interpreted "being difficult". I was thinking about that meaning raging and causing a scene!

 

Being difficult for me would be, "You stay in a house together and I'll stay in a hotel. I need my space."

It might also be, "I'll stay in the house together. Let's agree that you won't create a situation where I'm alone with SD25."

SD25 presents as a waif so there is no outward raging or anything to easily point at and say, Hell no and have it seem reasonable. H has said he knows that SD25 is "difficult," which minimizes SD25 stuff and makes it seem like avoiding her or resisting being alone is somehow disproportionate.

H is going through some "difficulties" with SD25 right now.

One of the natural consequences of me saying pretty much nothing when he talks about her is that he expresses more freely how he feels about her.

However, this tends to happen when she is being extreme and right now she is being extreme.

Once she winds him up and gets whatever need met, a period of calm follows and H is lulled into thinking she is improving. So it's hard to know in September if we will be in a period of "SD25 is difficult" or "SD25 is doing well." Difficult or not difficult is day to day.

But asserting yourself- yes! We don't have to be doormats.

In the example of SD25 velcro at parties or gatherings, I cannot think of a reasonable way to be assertive in those scenarios.  

[Turkish]

All of us (all kids plus me + H) saw each other last Oct at brother-in-laws for a birthday party and SD25 was at every mini-gathering during our 4 day visit. No matter who we were getting together with, SD25 was there -- invited by H. SD25 was like velcro at these gatherings. Sitting next to me in restaurants, seeking me out at parties, sticking near me on walks, etc. So H is having a great time and I am being monopolized by SD25.

This sounds like she's trying to deal with social anxiety.

[Notwendy]

This reminds me of the thread "what terms are used to minimize BPD behaviors". "being difficult". Also, "mother's in a bad mood"- for raging.

Yet, if we considered our own needs, that was exaggerated.  If I asked for something, I was described as "selfish" by BPD mother.

It's understandable that we feel asserting our own needs is "being difficult". There's the fear of rocking the boat. But it may only be self care to not go along with what someone else wants.

It sounds like staying with SD 25 is just a miserable situation. I don't stay with my BPD mother for similar reasons. I need to have space away from her so I can feel at peace.

This is supposed to be a good time for you - seeing old friends. As much as you wish to be kind to your H, this may be "doing too much" on your part to the point where you feel resentful and emotionally drained.

Your H may also be playing out his own wishes of happy family.

How far along are you with the plans. Did you reserve the house? Is SD expecting to stay with you?

I think your H is going to balk at the idea of you staying in a hotel while they stay in the house, because it doesn't fit the "happy family" picture and may insult SD25 playing into "you don't like her"

I don't know where she is financially, but 25 is still pretty young and travel/hotel can be an expense at that age. Maybe your H wants to pay for her housing- and it's not unusual for parents to do that when travelling with young adults.

So maybe the house is not a good idea. What if you all stay in a hotel and she has her own room, and you and H cover the cost of her hotel room? Can you cancel the reservation on the house this far out?

I think explaining to your H that you think this is going to be a miserable set up for you and considering alternatives for housing might be a way to go here.

[pursuingJoy]

SD25 presents as a waif so there is no outward raging or anything to easily point at and say, Hell no and have it seem reasonable. H has said he knows that SD25 is "difficult," which minimizes SD25 stuff and makes it seem like avoiding her or resisting being alone is somehow disproportionate.

I can SO relate to all of this and what you described about thinking ahead and being a constant source of supply.

It just occurred to me that I noticed a change in this dynamic after I refused to host MIL overnight. I offered day visits which were refused with disgust and horror. "Who doesn't let their mom stay overnight?" They asked repeatedly, I was called selfish, but I held firm. I now seem painted black to MIL which brings some relief, surprisingly. I'm not expected to host, make her feel good about herself, receive her Velcro-ness, be her therapist, fixer, caretaker or guardian. I do worry that H lives with buried resentment but to be honest, that's his burden to carry, not mine.

For me, my desire to be gracious, seek peace and balance has sometimes served to protect me from facing my fears and prolong the inevitable.

What's the bravest choice for you in all of this?

[livednlearned]

This sounds like she's trying to deal with social anxiety.

It feels different. While she is not a rock star in social situations, she sees these in-laws once or twice a month. My SIL is very maternal, nurturing.

My BPD-radar suggests that SD25 does not want me building relationships with family members that she sees as hers. Meanwhile, she is baffled by my compassion + boundaries and is trying to ingratiate. Also, I find it hard to be rude so I don't tend to walk away, which I'm working on. There is a sense of glee for SD25 in these interactions.

[livednlearned]

I think explaining to your H that you think this is going to be a miserable set up for you and considering alternatives for housing might be a way to go here.

Unfortunately, I don't feel I have the backbone for that.

We are due for a moment of truth. It's been a while (over 2 years). SD25 was here last summer and in terms of managing SD25, the visit went well. I attribute it to SD25 staying in a hotel and me having work plus my own car plus lots of exit hatches. And my verbal boundaries (validating questions only).

H attributed it to SD25 maturing and being away from usual stressors but I think she was neutralized by me -- I'm the one who insisted she stay in a hotel, which was sensible because we do not currently have a guest room and I refuse (based on past experiences) to share a bathroom with SD25.

[livednlearned]

What's the bravest choice for you in all of this?

What a great question.

It's hard to think about being brave without instantly rationalizing my choices along the lines of peace-maker, appeaser, fixer.

I have to think about this...

[Riv3rW0lf]

Do you believe it's connected? For me, I do. Not sure my family is the source but they are certainly the lit match. I saw my uBPD brother after 10 years of disengagement, walked down a flight of stairs and it was like a guitar string snapped in my back.

Yes I do. I also have vertigo issues and migraines, which I all believe are stress related from having been hyper alert all my life. I also tend to push my body too far to reach for perfection before I am ready... I'd push too much at the gym, or bend too low at yoga, twist too far. I just don't feel it and then I hurt myself. My T thinks I am hard on my body to unconsciously continue the abuse my mom put me trough. And in a sense he is right... I am learning to stay within myself now, and love my body, listen to its needs instead of telling it what it needs. Its a process but I am getting better at it.

Ive been giving some thoughts to your post and since she is your stepdaughter and not your daughter, and because she is 25, I don't believe it crucial that she thinks you love her. It makes for poor family diners if she knows you don't, but it seems that's what you are getting anyway, so ... I'd just stay low and do my own things on my own time, let your husband deal with his own daughter. Truly, it isn't your problem and I don't see why you should stand between them to keep the peace.

You don't owe them to fix their family issues... And your husband should understand that, truly, she is not your problem and you shouldn't have to bend everytime she steps in, borderline or not. You married him, not her. And she is 25, not 15. 

[Notwendy]

Family dynamics can be sticky and actually form a part of who we are attracted to and who attracts us.

Having co-dependent tendencies, I do understand the pull to keep the peace.  I often give in when there is conflict as well. Sometimes I am not even fully aware of myself doing it- it is so habitual.

In my family, many of the dynamics are overt. If BPD mother has conflict- well we all know it by her rages and behaviors. Not that she doesn't also have her less obvious behaviors, but we knew what the rules were with her.

H's family dynamics are covert. Admittedly, his family dynamics are far less dysfunctional than in mine, but some are there. ( probably in all families to some extent). There are covert rules and everyone knows them, but as an outsider, I didn't.

I recall pushing to stay in a hotel as our family grew. There just wasn't enough space in his parents' home. But my H was concerned we'd "insult them" if we did that. Yet, when we did stay in a hotel- they didn't seem to mind. Maybe they preferred that, or they were insulted, but I have no way of knowing because nobody would say what they were thinking.

What I am saying is - even if your H's family of origin wasn't overtly dysfunctional, there may have been some unspoken rules. Like "we must always stay in a place together" that may not be the best option but he may be afraid to suggest otherwise to his D. On the other hand, she may have preferred the hotel and yet, may not have said it. Having a space to herself may have helped the visit go better.

And you having the "escape time".

If you are committed to the house- perhaps there's a room arrangement where she's on one part, and you two are at the other end. Or give her the room with her own bathroom- or some way there space between you. Plan some "escapes". If she's clingy to you when it's the two of you but clings to your H when he's there, then you cling to him! So he deals with her. If the dynamics between them are creepy- well let him deal with that- he may then feel the creepiness. You may also be subtly peacekeeping when it's the three of you and so being aware of that- you may be able to step back from it.

[livednlearned]

@pursuingjoy I was on a road trip the last two days and had time to think about your question. I'm grateful you asked this because it helped me clarify a few things.

Brave to me means being committed to a marriage that comes with yet another generation of BPD attached.

Brave in the context of ongoing interactions with SD25 means keeping my values intact while neutralizing aggression.

For SD25, me being kind = weak LnL.
Kindness is a weakness that can be exploited.
I am not willing to be unkind (value).

But being mean isn't the opposite of kind.
The opposite of kind is ... being effective.

So brave is remaining kind and neutralizing aggression --> how I am effective.
That means staying in the shared space (commitment to marriage), and remaining kind while being effective in neutralizing SD25.

I put some thought into potential scenarios that feel most threatening about this visit.

One: H leaving me with SD25. An effective way to handle that is to make it clear to H: I'm asking that you do not leave SD25 with me.

Two: SD25 asks to have a solo talk with me. This has happened before. I end up in a kindness headlock. An effective way to thwart is to say: How about write it down. (It took me a long time to think of that one ...).

Three: Excessive preoccupation with somatic/medical issues. This feature has been building for years and is now full-blown. I have been walking out of the room (when she calls to discuss the latest affliction), not asking questions, changing the topic if H brings it up. I'm still trying to figure out a more direct, effective way to handle this. H is currently on tilt with this but can't seem to curb it (he's in healthcare).

I did the math for the whole visit  Total time together = 48 hours. Minus 16 for sleep = 32. Minus 3 to visit with a friend = 29. After SD25 arrives, they'll probably go for a hike and will probably do another the following morning. If it's just SD25, I'll skip both. If other kids come, I'll skip one.

The rest of the time, roughly ~24 hours, I will do what I can to be kind and effective.

I wish I didn't have to think about SD25 and how to handle her. I'm a bit disappointed in myself and embarrassed by the amount of thought it takes to figure out boundaries.

So much went down with SD25 this year and I stayed to the side, a smart choice because like you mentioned @notwendy, it meant natural consequences for H. That is the big improvement these past few years. Me staying in my lane means that H is expressing more authentically how he feels, which means handling more of SD25 issues head on as opposed to rescuing all the time. I guess that's why I'm so wary of this visit. It eliminates some of the mechanisms I've been relying on to keep myself outside the triangle.

[Notwendy]

For SD25, me being kind = weak LnL.
Kindness is a weakness that can be exploited.
I am not willing to be unkind (value).

But being mean isn't the opposite of kind.
The opposite of kind is ... being effective.


I have a similar conflict with my BPD mother. If I am kind to her, it's an opportunity for exploitation. I am not willing to be unkind. However, she doesn't share that value. I also learned in recovery that we can ( and should ) extend that value to ourselves. Be kind to ourselves.

The values are not shared. If we want to be kind to others and also to ourselves- and we are in the presence of someone who is unkind, what do we do?

It helped to reframe "kind". It's a fine line between being kind and being enabling. If we allow them to be unkind to us, we are enabling them to be unkind people. If I allow my BPD mother to be verbally abusive to me, then I am enabling her worst traits, not her best. That isn't being kind. Disengaging may be the "kind" choice.

In the grand scheme of things, I think of it this way- don't enable unwanted behaviors as much as possible but neither should I add to them. If I behave against my own values then that one is on me.

Considering that you are going to be in close contact with D25, I think having some separation is the best case solution. She clings to you at the reception? Go walk over to your H "hi honey" and let her follow ( and so she's with him). Schedule time away for yourself. If things get awkward, have some neutral phrases "I need to think about that" and remove yourself ( go take a break- get some water in the kitchen, go to the restroom ( even if you just close the door and stand there for a moment)

[livednlearned]

@notwendy, I appreciate the way you understand the nuances in these relationships.

A girlfriend said to me, Why not try being rude to see what happens?

She thinks my definition of rude is not really rude.

Sometimes it is hard to know what is a value and what is codependent thinking (for lack of a better way to say it).

[GaGrl]

@notwendy, I appreciate the way you understand the nuances in these relationships.

A girlfriend said to me, Why not try being rude to see what happens?

She thinks my definition of rude is not really rude.

Sometimes it is hard to know what is a value and what is codependent thinking (for lack of a better way to say it).

Your friend may be on to something...

SD25 is clinging at a gathering. You say, "SD25, I am going to circulate and have some conversations -- why don't you do the same."

Even more bluntly...

"SD25, I'm uncomfortable having you so closely attached to me all evening -- it feels clingy. I need you to give me some room."

What do you see as unkind in those statements? (Assume the tone of voice is appropriate.)

[livednlearned]

SD25 is clinging at a gathering. You say, "SD25, I am going to circulate and have some conversations -- why don't you do the same."

I could really use you at these gatherings 

What do you see as unkind in those statements? (Assume the tone of voice is appropriate.)

Sometimes I just can't think how to say things that well, at least not in the moment.

I'm also driven by guilt. I don't want to be around her, so I overcompensate and choose to stand there to disprove this fact. Like a lot of people with BPD traits, I know SD25 is scanning to find facts to support feelings (of rejection/abandonment) she experiences. I suspect she can tell I am not a fan.

I need a cheat sheet in my pocket for phrases. I don't know why it's so hard to come up with them on my own. When I do, it takes a lot of mulling things over in my mind to find ones that are socially acceptable.

It makes me realize one of the reasons I allow these situations to occur is because I don't want a heart to heart with her. Partly because I don't want things to go sideways and end up in an H-LnL-SD25 triangle. Partly because past experience tells me SD25 does not have the maturity for these conversations to be authentic or genuine. And part of it is a grudge. She has said and done things that I can forgive but not forget.

Have you ever felt it was hard to have eye contact with someone because of your feelings towards them? That sometimes happens to me with SD25. I have feelings of repulsion toward her at times and I have guilt about that.

Being rude-kind feels like dangerous territory that could expose my true feelings. 

[GaGrl]

Hey, sweetie, just tell me where and when to show up, and I can be your wing-woman! We would have SUCH a good time. Your fam wouldn't know what hit them.

I can remember the early years of our marriage... I had to resist feelings of guilt/weirdness/ whatever because I sat in the front seat of the f-ing car while his early 20s daughter sat in the back seat. It was a huge change for her yet so natural for me. Fortunately, she was not PD but rather mild anxiety and depression, and she worked through Daddy having a primary partner pretty well. Awkward moments, though.

[Notwendy]

I can so relate to your feelings.

As to different definitions of "being rude" - I think that' accurate but I also think in the mind of a BPD person it's different for their behaviors and other people's behaviors. My mother can say a string of verbal insults- that somehow doesn't seem wrong to her. However one little slight on our part becomes something horrible to her.

I think we need to stay with our own definition and values. If we try to change that to match theirs- we can't - because of these differences and also if we do, we will know we compromised our own. Every faith tradition has some version of the Golden Rule and I think "treat someone the way you wish to be treated" is a good one to go by.

It was in recovery work that I understood to include myself in this. I had a sponsor who "turned the mirror" on me and it felt rough at times to have her do that, and now, I am grateful for that, because I learned that it isn't kind to enable people- because it's not kind to enable their rude behavior. A sort of "appeal to their higher selves". So while my mother reacts with anger and hurt at my boundaries - the other choice, enabling her to be an abusive person isn't being kind. Being kind to myself includes not allowing someone to treat me poorly.

A version of "tough love" I guess.

But also choose your battles. If it's a couple of days, I default to appeasement sometimes because it takes a lot of emotional energy to resist her dynamics and two days isn't going to make much difference in them. As a result, I know that she's going to "win" some conflicts because I don't want to get into them but by choosing to default on some things, I know I have made that choice.

However, sometimes I need to hold my grounds and so yes, it is good to rehearse some phrases- yet in the moment, we feel unsettled- we will be taken off guard because of the covertness. I have felt upset with myself when I realize this but again, we can't always predict covert behavior. I think the best phrases to practice are "time out" ones and how to get a few moments to yourself. "Thank you, I need to think about that". "Oh that buffet table looks good- I am going to check this out" ( and excuse yourself). Even if you have to go hide in a restroom stall to compose yourself- that is OK.

 

[pursuingJoy]

It makes me realize one of the reasons I allow these situations to occur is because I don't want a heart to heart with her.

She's not wired for a heart to heart to work. Any conversation will just fuel the next conflict, like you said, 'scanning.'

Have you ever felt it was hard to have eye contact with someone because of your feelings towards them? That sometimes happens to me with SD25. I have feelings of repulsion toward her at times and I have guilt about that.

YES

I struggleto make eye contact with MIL for the same reasons. I think I feel that the moment I engage, she can 'read' me andvthat'sblood in the water. I do the same with my stepdaughter, who treats her mother horribly. It's a way to maintain what feels like a safe distance.

If boundaries are about keeping us in our own yard, that means they're more about our limitations than the other person's behavior. I accept that I'm easily triggered and upset by MIL's behavior. I accept that I've been hurt by her and still carry that residue. I accept that I am not in the best position to love her, in fact my very existence triggers her fear of abandonment. It doesn't mean I can't learn or grow or challenge myself. I am simply accepting what is true today and that is humbling.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Interesting about the eye contact.

I also don't want to make eye contact with my mother. But force myself to, because her worsts lash-outs often follow in reaction to me not making eye contact or trying to ignore her behavior. She needs to be seen so much, it is exhausting.

She gets all weirded out when I am not actively putting an interest in her. And when I do, I end up feeling completely drained and empty.

No safe middle ground it seems. Always on the edge of another impulsive rage.

[livednlearned]

just tell me where and when to show up, and I can be your wing-woman!

  I'm not kidding when I say that many of you are with me in these interactions. I cannot even begin to describe how much I've learned from you and others here over the years.

I learned that it isn't kind to enable people- because it's not kind to enable their rude behavior.

It isn't kind to enable people is a good way to think about it. I'm not doing SD25 any favors by pretending her behaviors are ok, even if I'm pretending we're ok.

Is it accurate to say that there may be double standards in a BPD relationship and that's ok? Because that's what I'm starting to think. I have a definition of rude/kind that is wildly different than how BPD25 sees things.

The one thing I am determined to not have happen, and this is the source of what constrains much of my own behavior (and frankly narrows some of my choices) is that I do not want SD25 to run to H with a complaint about something I've done or said in a 1:1.

I refuse to be in a position where H wants me to talk to SD25 or god forbid apologize.

To do so is the mother of all paydays for SD25.

That's why I think "how about write it down" shines light on SD25 maneuvers. It removes the 1:1 dynamic that feels like win/lose. Or worse, turns into a triangulation with H that is a win/lose/lose. Asking her to write it down makes it so she would have to commit to her words, it puts them on paper (which might be shared with H), and creates a nice exit strategy in the moment.

She's not wired for a heart to heart to work. Any conversation will just fuel the next conflict, like you said, 'scanning.'

So nicely said, pj. She is not wired for it. For years, that is how I kept getting turned around and kicked. Thinking she was wired for it because she was talking like she was.

I feel that the moment I engage, she can 'read' me and that's blood in the water.

Exactly. I keep myself moving and busy when SD25 is around. Slowing down makes it easier for her to make a move.

I also notice that I have some foo baggage here. I was told, "Look at me when I'm talking to you" as a kid a lot. It feels like eye contact is supposed to demonstrate something -- I don't know exactly what. I think I have more eye contact with people and it feels like it's out of a sense of obligation. I probably don't need to have eye contact with SD25 as much as I think I do.

Maybe I'll wear sunglasses the whole visit. 

[pursuingJoy]

We're naming this operation (I mean visit) #teamsunglasses

[kells76]

This seems like a core thing -- that you don't want SD25 going to H complaining about something between just you and her, and then H coming to you wanting you to "make it better".

It almost sounds "worse" to have H come to you saying "please apologize to SD25", than the initial interaction with SD25 & you.

Is that close?

I am reflecting on my own experience, so if any of this isn't close, feel free to set it aside.

If it were me, I would feel -- I don't know if "betrayed" is too strong, but something like "inescapably forced to witness/participate in toxicity" if DH did that.

If I felt like I could predictably trust DH to respond healthily, I would feel way less anxiety around the kids. Sometimes he is fine, but sometimes he "devolves" into JADEing when they bring up certain topics, and I often feel emotionally trapped (like I should stay to try to salvage things) or literally trapped (stuck in a room away from the door, or in the truck on the highway). I am dealing this year with feelings of wanting to do unhealthy drastic things (jumping out of the truck) to get away from the imported dysfunction.

If I had to stay in a house with H & SD25, it would be easier if I felt like I could trust H to not triangulate. If I thought that even if I told him explicitly "don't bring SD25's complaints to me, she needs to do that with me herself", but I wasn't sure if he would predictably follow through, I would be anxious and on edge the whole time even more so than from SD25's drama - the thought or fear that I could not trust H or rely on him.

Anyway, that may be overstating things -- but the concepts of trust, and also of inescapable exposure to dysfunction, came to mind. Wondering if those are the bigger issues? Like of you and H were solidly on the same page about extinguishing triangles before they started, would that take the trip intensity from a 9.5 to a 6?

[Notwendy]

Like Kells, I also picked up on the triangle and possible request to apologize to D25. I think this needs to be addressed with your H. If D25 comes to him with some made up complaint or imagined slight and he "takes her side" I see where this is hurtful to you. This is classic triangle dynamics.

My BPD mother does this. She sees people as "on her side" or "not her side". A frequent triangle was for her to feel like a victim due to something I didn't do or did ( her interpretation of it) and go to my father. My father would take on rescuer position and then be angry at me.

This was hard to change. This kind of pattern had been established between them for probably the whole time they were together. I had to also realize it wasn't as much about me as them- how they related to each other and to other people.

Your H has probably been in this pattern with his D25 for the whole of their relationship. The beginning is natural. A father is going to protect his baby girl. You mentioned your H has worked on co-dependency. He has likely over functioned in this area. In addition, if her mother has BPD, he probably took on this role with her, and also may feel guilty for the impact of the marital difficulties and his D25's emotional issues- even if he wasn't the whole cause of them.

Basically, this is your H's triangle, not yours. It's not possible to control what D25 says to him about you or how your H reacts to that. I think the focus needs to be on what you can control and how you can stay out of this triangle as much as possible. I think this needs to be discussed with your H ahead of time, the triangle, how you feel about it. The pull of the triangle for him may be strong and not even related to D25. Triangle dynamics are like that.

I mentioned before that my H's family seems to have unspoken rules and my H was concerned about offending his family. I have not ever intentionally done something to offend them. Quite the opposite- I have made the effort to get along with them. Yet somehow my H would accuse me of offending them sometimes and I had no idea. Through co-dependency work, I learned that I can't control what he or they may be thinking. I can try to not offend them but if somehow they are offended- that is on them. I can't read their minds. It's their responsibility to discuss this with me if it's an issue ( they didn't).

I had to stay to my own ideas of what happened. So one time, I had just bought a present for my MIL that I thought she'd like when my H said I was rude to his family and having my own boundaries, I thought what BS. I had just done the opposite and I held that. I said " that's not true" and didn't discuss it further. This is his worry.  They aren't offended. It's his family stuff. Not mine.

Whatever goes on between your H and his D25 is his family dynamics. Not yours. She can go to him and tell him you are whatever she imagines. His response to it is his issue. I think it's important to be proactive and tell your H that if his D25 has an issue with you - then she needs to address it directly with you, not this indirect triangle where he tries to reel you in so he can be rescuer. I see where this bothers you. It's not your job to be the rescuer or scapegoat here. You don't have to go along with this.

[pursuingJoy]

What kells and NotWendy are noting about the triangle dynamics sure applied to me. I played my part in the triangle and tried to get H to see what was happening. I so wanted a shift in the dynamic, but it was too much to ask. H had been conditioned to rescue her since he was an infant. It was painful to accept reality and come up with an alternative solution, which was to set firm boundaries around MIL's access to me. I'm still smarting from what feels like betrayal. I say this to myself over and over: A bird sitting on a tree is never afraid of the branch breaking, because her trust is not on the branch but in her own wings.

lnl, if you think this is relevant to your relationship, what are your options?

[livednlearned]

We're naming this operation (I mean visit) #teamsunglasses

 

you don't want SD25 going to H complaining about something between just you and her, and then H coming to you wanting you to "make it better".

It almost sounds "worse" to have H come to you saying "please apologize to SD25", than the initial interaction with SD25 & you.

Woo. Yes, this is very true.

I would feel -- I don't know if "betrayed" is too strong, but something like "inescapably forced to witness/participate in toxicity" if DH did that.

I hadn't thought about it but yes. Some of the toxicity is SD25 violating boundaries directly.  Some of the toxicity is SD25 violating a boundary through H. But if she does something and runs to H and he asks me to fix it, I lose my damn mind.

Because it'll be, "Please xyz (through gritted teeth) so I don't have a SD25 problem."

And I will cave.

And SD25 will be kicking up her heels.

the focus needs to be on what you can control and how you can stay out of this triangle as much as possible. I think this needs to be discussed with your H ahead of time, the triangle, how you feel about it

.

We seem to be beyond talking about it. This is what actually made me pull up my big girl panties and figure out how to have boundaries with H when he isn't able to have boundaries with SD25.

It's taken careful thought about what the common patterns are and how to nip them in the bud. I don't discuss this work with H because trial and error taught me that actual boundaries are more effective than discussing boundaries. Talking about boundaries just led to conflict and that's SD25's agenda. Get us arguing with each other and then have H pick her.

I wish I could say "I'm not apologizing to SD25" or insist he stay out of it, but past history tells me I would just do what he asked so we aren't in full-blown conflict. Which again, is gold for SD25.

Whatever goes on between your H and his D25 is his family dynamics. Not yours. She can go to him and tell him you are whatever she imagines. His response to it is his issue.

I agree. And I guarantee it would become our issue. Even if you and I know it's his. 

be proactive and tell your H that if his D25 has an issue with you - then she needs to address it directly with you, not this indirect triangle where he tries to reel you in so he can be rescuer

If this were to happen directly with SD25, I was planning to say, "How about write it down." Maybe that's the same response if H comes to me with the same kind of thing?

"Have her write it down. That way she can figure out where this is coming from -- we both know I haven't done anything to offend her. That way you and I can take a look and it's not me in a position where I'm at a loss. We'll be a united front on this."

I don't know for certain, but my hunch is that "writing it down" will feel like a lot of sunlight to SD25.

It isn't saying no, I don't want to talk (SD25 gets a hit of dopamine).
It isn't saying yes, I'll talk (SD25 gets a hit of dopamine).

It's saying, Whatever it is, let's get it out there where others can maybe weigh in.

At least I think that's what it says. It seems like something reasonable and normal to request given our history. I know that above all else, H wants to avoid conflict. Because I handle my own boundaries and have good responses to SD25, I think he has deep gratitude and respect for how I handle SD25 dynamics.

One thing your advice made me think of is SD25's intense somatic stuff and how to handle it. H knows I have limited capacity for listening to medical things and I worried that asking him to tone it down with SD25 would only cause her to escalate. Maybe, though, I can tell him I'll remove myself. I know he is beyond fed up with the rabbit hole of medical weirdness she is going down, but he cannot seem to stop himself from engaging. That's something I can tell him advance. "I know it's hard to put the brakes on it -- heads up that I'll probably take care of myself by walking away if it gets to be too much."

[Notwendy]

Because it'll be, "Please xyz (through gritted teeth) so I don't have a SD25 problem."
And I will cave.
And SD25 will be kicking up her heels.

This right here.

Now, I happened to have a tough love codependency sponsor who would have thrown this one at me if I had said that. Ouch! As much as it upset me, it made me aware of my role in perpetuating this kind of thing so it actually was a help to me, even if it wasn't easy to see.

Let's look at the gains from this interaction. A behavior doesn't continue unless the cost exceeds the gains. So let's look at gains and cost.

D25. Gains: she gets to be in her favorite role of victim and get Daddy's attention and sees that Daddy chooses her. She wins. Cost: nothing to her.

Your H. Gain: He gets to play rescuer role to D25. He's off the hook for any conflict with her. He's also off the hook with you since you are the more reasonable one and cave to please him. Between the two of you, she's the harder one to deal with.
Cost: he may feel a tinge of guilt about doing this but mostly the gain of dodging the bullet from D25 is greater than the guilt and he knows you aren't going to make a scene over it. Gain > Cost for him.

For both of them, there is no incentive to change these behaviors because they work to each of their advantages.

You: Gain is avoiding cost of conflict with H being a nice person and not having to rock the boat. Cost: a lot of resentment and feeling that D25 is one up on you. Also less regard for your H who once again, isn't able to stand up to his D25.

Your part- for you, it's weighing the cost of continuing this and the gains to you. The only change will come from you, since there is no incentive on their part to change their behavior. While you wish D25 would stop running to Daddy to rescue her and Daddy to stop leaning on you to help him be the rescuer, these are not behaviors you can control. They have no incentive to change their behaviors unless you up the cost to H which means to stop rescuing her and have the interaction between them be his problem - not yours.



If this is going to change, you need to stop enabling H to lean on you. It's the triangle. Lets do the roles:

D25 is victim. Runs to Daddy with you as persecutor. Daddy rescues her by asking you to apologize.

H comes to you to help him with this issue. D25 is being difficult. She is in persecutor position. H is victim -"poor me" help me so I don't have a problem with D12. You step in to rescue your H.

[livednlearned]

I see.

You're pointing out the costs/gains even if I maneuver to make sure these triangles don't occur in the first place.

Because the other cost is all this hand-wringing, trying to get this stuff figured out in advance. And while that's not nothing, and there are good skills coming by way of it, this prep does have a cost.

Yes?

Whereas if I am (let's say) more authentic about the formation of the triangle, I get to step up and change the triangle in real time. And that change gets them to change.

If I'm following, then that does turn the way I've been doing things on its head. It would be nice to not fret about things 5 months ahead of an event. 

Which, to be fair, is driven in part by some of the spill over from these nightly calls with SD25. Some weeks it feels like she lives here.

I would really have a hard choice to make. For the most part, I create a Teflon environment where nothing can stick. This has largely baffled SD25. And I do not meddle in H's relationship with SD25. Unless it affects me directly, in which case I use a lot of stealth or I remove myself or apply physical boundaries.

What you're suggesting means speaking more freely and letting the dynamic play out. Then dealing with the triangle in a more overt way.

And probably dealing with the short-term discomfort of vacation conflict because I wouldn't yield to bad behavior. 

[I Am Redeemed]

I've been following for a while. Lots of great advice here.

What struck me by "maneuvering to make sure those triangles don't occur in the first place" is that 1) that sounds exhausting and energy-sucking 2) that would be a huge cost if it were me and 3) I think you hit the nail on the head.

If you switch tactics from stealth and maneuvering to ward off unhealthy dynamics caused by the behavior of two other people, it would seem to be setting yourself free from the anxiety of figuring out how to continue using avoidance as a strategy.

Are you super hung up on the idea that SD25 "wins" if she creates conflict between you and H through triangulation?

Could you reframe this as not a "real win" since taking away the effectiveness of this behavior lops off a weapon she can weild?

[Notwendy]

What I meant by looking at the cost/benefit of the three of you in this triangle is that you have the largest cost when you rescue your H. D25 gets the emotional attention she wants, your H is off the hook of saying no to her and gets to look good. You are the one who then has to be the "bad person who needs to apologize" here. You do something you don't want to do, it feels inauthentic to you, and so you feel resentment.

My sponsor pointed out resentment as a cue to when we are acting in a co-dependent manner. It's not the action - we can do the same thing from a perspective of willingness and authenticity-apologize to someone if we feel we need to. But if we are playing into something -being inauthentic- doing something we don't want to do but we cave- we feel resentful.

It's the resentment that gives us the clue to what behaviors we need to change if we want to be less co-dependent.

Again, it's the choice- and being aware of the choice helps guide us. For instance, if I am spending one day with my mother, and she makes a request that I don't want to do, but it isn't a firm boundary- and I do it anyway to avoid a huge conflict- I may feel resentful but I choose this because it's not worth the conflict.

On the other hand, something that I have a firm boundary about- I will say no. I can not control her reaction and it may be hard to deal with, but I choose to keep my boundary and so, I don't feel resentment.

Usually after a short visit, and giving in to her requests, I feel a sense of "ickyness" because of the dynamics. I know I have played along and it feels inauthentic. But I choose to not rock the boat in a very short visit to avoid it escalating.

You know it is difficult to say no to your H if D25 comes to him with a complaint about you and he askes you to "go along with it" to make the situation easier - for him- and you do it. The change in this dynamic has to come from you because they both are getting something out of this while you are the one feeling resentful for it. They aren't. So this dynamic rests on you. Your H is avoiding the role of holding a boundary with his D25. He passes the ball to you. What will you do with it?

You have the ball here. It's your move...

[GaGrl]

What specific requests of SD25 make you feel "icky" when you capitulate?

[livednlearned]

Are you super hung up on the idea that SD25 "wins" if she creates conflict between you and H through triangulation?

Could you reframe this as not a "real win" since taking away the effectiveness of this behavior lops off a weapon she can weild?

I have to really think about this.

When SD25 lived with us, I had tire tracks up and down my back and could not figure out how it was happening. I was used to overt BPD with my ex and SD25 is covert. She would say "I think of you like a mom" and yet H and I were arguing daily about SD25 -- it put a huge strain on our marriage. So creating conflict between me and H is without question a page in SD25's playbook. Especially if the conflict is about her, and especially if H protects her.

I worked with a therapist to identify specific points of pain with S25 and slowly neutralized the conflict -- I say neutralize because there was some head-on conflict, both with SD25 and H. I can see how it might look like avoiding conflict, which in a sense it is, but the work with T was maybe a short-term reset to reclaim my house back and rebuild trust with H. SD25 is a huge drain for him, and when pushed to his limits, the things he says about SD25 are hard to hear. Like me, this is third-generation BPD and like me, our relationship is the first healthy, mutually respectful one he's had. This makes the BPD behaviors harder to bear and also, at least for me, possible to tolerate because I bring some health and strength (and skill) to the battle.

So yes, SD25 won when there was conflict between me and H. I guess the question is whether that is true now that our foundation is stronger. When I think about a scenario where H asks me to apologize to SD25, I wonder about just saying no thanks and letting them work it out -- chances are H will manage SD25 directly, and probably not super effectively, but I won't get dragged in. H might be irritated but he gets over stuff pretty quickly.

I do feel it's in my nature to think about this scenarios in advance because my default is to become somewhat paralyzed in the moment when there is aggression, covert or otherwise.

The work with T helped me feel empowered and effective -- I just hadn't thought about the cost and whether to reassess once the circumstances changed like they have (strong marriage, 3000 miles distance, short visit).

[Notwendy]

 I wonder about just saying no thanks and letting them work it out -- chances are H will manage SD25 directly, and probably not super effectively, but I won't get dragged in. H might be irritated but he gets over stuff pretty quickly.

This is the choice that has you out of the triangle. It also allows your H to take responsibility for his choices and to deal with his own fears and uncomfortable feelings. It's a choice that does not involve you taking him off the hook ( and so managing his feelings for him )

[livednlearned]

What I meant by looking at the cost/benefit of the three of you in this triangle is that you have the largest cost when you rescue your H.

I hadn't thought about this particular variation of the triangle.

I didn't think about me rescuing H.

I thought of it as neutralizing SD25 to protect my marriage.

We may be in a stable enough place that I can retire this perspective and see the rescue angle more clearly. It makes sense to me to shift perspective when the situation shifts or stabilizes.

My sponsor pointed out resentment as a cue to when we are acting in a co-dependent manner. It's not the action - we can do the same thing from a perspective of willingness and authenticity-apologize to someone if we feel we need to. But if we are playing into something -being inauthentic- doing something we don't want to do but we cave- we feel resentful.

That's excellent insight.

I have to think about this ... I feel less resentment in general about SD25 because 3000 miles of distance means less f2f interaction. I also feel less resentment in general because I took a giant step away and by my estimation, that left the entire emotional burden of her on H's shoulders, which led him to make changes, and those changes have been good for both of us.

But of course, I do still feel resentment toward SD25. It's inevitable when she visits. And I do resent her nightly calls to H because they interfere with our time together, although to H's credit, he contains her to a short window of time after he gets home from work. However, when she is in a full episode, there is no containing her. Full episodes happen roughly once a month and can last for weeks.

When a day goes by without anything from SD25, H will comment with surprise.

You know it is difficult to say no to your H if D25 comes to him with a complaint about you and he askes you to "go along with it" to make the situation easier - for him- and you do it. The change in this dynamic has to come from you because they both are getting something out of this while you are the one feeling resentful for it. They aren't. So this dynamic rests on you. Your H is avoiding the role of holding a boundary with his D25. He passes the ball to you. What will you do with it?

If that's the scenario that happens in the fall, my response -- based on feeling strong right now -- is to simply say no. That's the strongest response. After that is something along the lines of, Have her talk to me directly.

I think where all of this is going is authenticity. I struggle to feel authentic with SD25. I guess if I can't have an entirely authentic relationship, then I can at least say what feels authentic to H so we can learn each other better. Saying "I cannot authentically do that" isn't something I have ever said to H. But it's the truth.

What I'm gathering from all this is that I'm assuming that not being authentic with SD25 means I cannot be authentic with H. And that's something worth looking at more closely.

Thanks for walking me through this  

[Notwendy]

I can at least say what feels authentic to H so we can learn each other better. Saying "I cannot authentically do that" isn't something I have ever said to H. But it's the truth.

That is the goal of co-dependency work- to be more authentic and true to yourself. ( also using discretion- some things we shouldn't say "hey honey, this actor is so handsome in this movie" is probably better left unsaid  .)

But connection depends on being authentic- and so does our relationship with ourself. When we aren't being authentic, it feels like a betrayal to us- it diminishes our own self worth to ourselves.

This is a tough thing to do for those of us who have grown up with our own survival in our families depending on not being authentic, not paying attention to our own feelings. It feels selfish to pay attention to our own feelings because we were taught that it wasn't OK to do that. Our comfort zone is when we lean too far in the other direction- being concerned about how others feel, so pulling back feels uncomfortable- at first- not just to us, but the people we have been accommodating.

A counselor explained to me that a lot of things we do can either be co-dependently motivated or authentic. The clue is how we feel. When it's being co-dependent, we feel resentment, or "icky". When it's not, we don't,

We worked on the idea of "saying yes when we mean no" as being inauthentic. Now there are a lot of things people do that we may not want to do- but we are willing to do them. We might not want to go to work one day but we are willing to do this because we want to keep our jobs. We may not want to do the dishes, but we are willing to do them because we want clean dishes. And there are things we want to do and things we do not.

You do not want to be the go between ( rescuer-fixer ) in this triangle with your H and SD 25. Doing so results in your feeling resentment and that you were somehow used by your H to smooth things over with her. He stays "looking good" - she feels connected to him while you take the "wrong" position. That's your clue.

[livednlearned]

This is so helpful.

I have an example that comes to mind, if anyone can help me work through.

Last summer, SD25 came to visit. I work from home and H took time off during the week to fetch SD25 from the airport.

H said to me before picking her up, "I know you're working and I'll tell SD25 that -- but if you have a second to come out and say hi when she gets here, that would be great."

This is such a reasonable thing to ask but with years of built-up resentment toward SD25, including some egregious experiences when I was working at home (like walking into my office and holding up her phone to show me who she was face-timing while I was in a zoom meeting), I am at a loss how to transition into something less charged.

Walking into my bathroom while I got out of the shower happened. I cannot seem to let the shock of that go.

Meaning, there is normal resentment, and then there is this half-ton truck's worth of resentment toward her that I can't seem to set down.

Maybe there is no difference when it comes to authenticity? I chose to not come out and greet her because all my soldiers were in ready stance and that's a lot of energy to manage when it's something as simple as saying hello.

That's my side of the equation in not feeling able to have an authentic relationship with SD25.

So is this thing about not acting out of a place of resentment more about H and others? Otherwise I would speak more freely to SD25 about the things that feel like boundary violations to me.

It makes me realize I have "reasonable" boundary violations and then "unreasonable" which I seem to base on past transgressions that I perceive are not worth addressing directly -- in part because I don't have the skill to manage those interactions, at least not yet.

[Notwendy]

Otherwise I would speak more freely to SD25 about the things that feel like boundary violations to me.

But speaking might not be effective. It isn't effective with my mother. She will either act hurt, dissociate or rage. So I don't speak to her, not because I am afraid of her reaction but because it just isn't effective,

Actions are the only boundaries that work with her. If I don't want her looking through my belongings, I keep them locked around her. If I don't want her to share some personal information, I don't share it with her.

I think for you, it will be carving out some personal space in the house and if you don't want her to enter the room, lock the door.

Not to excuse her behavior of walking in on you when you want privacy- but it makes me wonder what her emotional age is. She may be physically 25 but these are the kinds of things younger children do. Coming into the room to show you her phone sounds like an adolescent.

Covert behavior is frustrating to deal with because one doesn't know what someone wants. One can be covertly manipulative because they are emotionally needy. I may be just guessing here, but her clinging to you, showing you her phone, seems like something a younger child would do when they want attention.

In addition, she has a BPD mother, and not to excuse her poor boundaries, it may also be that she didn't grow up with boundaries. Also, not having a stable emotional bond with a mother may mean she's seeking something like that from you, but this feels uncomfortable to you. I agree, there's a lot of baggage between the two of you and also we expect more from a 25 year old.

My BPD mother is emotionally needy and wants to be taken care of. However, she won't be forthright about what she needs but instead, manipulates me to do things for her to meet this need. It feels icky to be manipulated and so I feel resentment when this happens, which makes it hard for me to genuinely meet her emotional need. It's that classic push someone away and then want attention.

D 25 is also attention seeking from her father. The triangle drama is also attention seeking. It looks to me as if she wants attention from both of you. With BPD mother- our visits go better when she's the center of attention. We can do this for a short while.

However, this is not what you want to do and I don't blame you. This is supposed to be a fun time for you and your friends and also you wish your H to join you. My guess is he's torn. He may feel some guilt about how his D25 had to deal with a BPD mother, or he may understand she's emotionally younger than her years.

What is your boundary? Think of actions:

Don't rescue your H from her needs.

He may not be able to balance the dual emotional pulls when with the two of you at one time. Maybe schedule some time for the two of you and some time where you are out with your friends and leave the two of them to be together. Share the schedule with him ahead of time.

Also share the schedule with D25. "on this night, your father and I will go to dinner with our friends" and then "on this afternoon, you and your father will go out for coffee together" ( while you do something with your friends)

I don't think a "heart to heart" talk with her will be effective and I think it would be very uncomfortable. I think when your H mentions this, perhaps he means giving her attention. Attention you don't want to do. I think the schedule might help designate time for you away from her, time with you and your H, and time for the two of them, so she knows she will have that at one point.

[livednlearned]

Not to excuse her behavior of walking in on you when you want privacy- but it makes me wonder what her emotional age is.

She swings between toddler to middle school. When she is acting like an adult, it comes across as, well, acting. Like taking on characteristics of someone twice her age.

She used to run to the door when H came home from work and tackle him with a full body hug like a toddler might do. When he tried to get her off him, she would cling harder. This was something we worked through in therapy -- my T said it was important that H greeted me first, to help SD25 feel that she wasn't in a position of power, and demonstrate to her that H and I were solid in our relationship. It wasn't easy but H was eventually able to do this because he agreed with the T that somewhere in SD25, she needed to know he was the parent, and not a spouse, and that this boundary would help her feel more secure that she didn't have the power to destroy his marriage or happiness.

When she came into my shower the second time, after I asked her to not come into my bedroom much less bathroom, it was more calculated.

It's hard to explain except that her body language and facial expression make it pretty clear. Sometimes I think she is genuinely struggling because she's alone and that's insufferable for her. Other times I think she is setting up scenarios where someone chooses her (bad behavior or otherwise) over their own values because then she feels worthy, at least in that moment when she rolls over a boundary. "Are you paying attention? Ok, good."

Anyway, the takeaway from this free therapy with you all  is that authenticity is something I have with myself and H.

Boundaries is something I have with SD25, and that can breed resentment simply because of the effort involved. Boundaries I set with H because of SD25 also breed resentment because I do work I'd like him to do.

The key is to watch carefully for resentment growing simply because I'm absorbing the conflict in order to keep peace.

When SD25 lived with us, I would visualize a cup -- if it was full, then I could do more with her. If it was empty, then my boundaries were up. I forgot about that until now. It's probably important to take that cup with me and use it during our visit.

If I'm well-rested and feel like my needs are met, and H and I are working as a team, that's a pretty full cup. 

[Riv3rW0lf]

Goodness...

Boundaries is something I have with SD25, and that can breed resentment simply because of the effort involved.

I had to uphold boundaries yesterday both with my BPDm and with H, who, when I told him I had answered her, got pissed at me. I told him to trust me in my dealings with her and in finding my way toward my own healing. He disagrees with how I approach thing and would like me to just cut her off, which is something I am just not able to do emotionally right now.

And I felt resentful.

I felt resentful that this was something I even needed to explain.

I felt resentful that I had to uphold boundaries with two people in the same day, one of whom is usually my best friend and partner in life.

And I felt exhausted and drained and I wondered why that was. And you just explained it to me through this simple sentence and through your empty/filled cup analogy. Thank you.

It is exhausting, having to constantly uphold boundaries, it is very true. Most people are able to do it naturally (or at least it looks like it), but for those of us with codependent tendancies, it is too often a struggle, and draining.

I find it taxing to have to explain myself about things that should go without question. It feels like fighing to just exist and be.

And so, I understand better now where you are coming from with you stepdaughter. Holding boundaries with someone with BPD is one thing (already hard), but when doing this, a sane and healthy thing, bring instability in our relationship, it is like a double drain sucking the energy out of our body and mind. When we have to also hold boundaries with the one person who is supposed to be on our side, or at least trust us and support us in being true to ourselves, welcoming us for what and who we are, this is the most draining of all.

Thankfully, this seems like a rather rare occurence between you and your husband, and it feels like you both generally work as a team. But I can see how taxing this can be for you to "lose" this feeling of partnership, even if just for a few days.

[Notwendy]

Yes, your own feelings of resentment can be a useful tool

It is emotionally exhausting. My BPD mother had expressed a wish to move closer to me. Not for me. She doesn't care if she sees me or not. It's because she thinks she would see my children more.

To her, I am mainly someone who could be useful to her and when I don't comply with what she wants me to do, she has no use for me.

If she wants something, boundaries are not a deterrent to her. She pushes at them or finds a way to get around them. So it takes a lot of emotional energy to hold a boundary with her.

I realized that having any kind of relationship to her is not possible without the boundary of distance. Distance allows me a sense of emotional safety and I need that.

I don't feel emotionally safe around her, yet don't feel it is right for me to initiate NC. Now, she can go weeks without speaking to me and seems just fine about it. I don't know if she even cares if we have a relationship or not, but if she wants NC, that is her choice.

But for visits, I have to limit the time with her. It's hard for me to be around her. So it's a matter of choosing my battles. I give in to most requests as long as they are not something that would violate my strongest values but how much time we are together is the boundary.

[livednlearned]

I give in to most requests as long as they are not something that would violate my strongest values but how much time we are together is the boundary.

I admire how clear you are on this. I suppose partly I am in control mode and looking for a clear path when there really isn't one. Or if there is, it is something I have to navigate in real time.

I feel like a cat trying to avoid a bath when it comes to this visit  

[Notwendy]

I think the feeling of control is relative- maybe better than before I worked on co-dependency, but I don't always feel in control when I visit BPD mother. It's an anxious experience. I know, logically, she can't hurt me. It's just that she has an agenda and there's no way of knowing what it is- and she "plays" us to accomplish it.

My "controls" are external ones. I visit her, not the other way around, because then I know the time constraints of the visit. I have my car with me- and I don't stay with her- so I know I can leave if I need to. She's very controlling and manipulative. It's not even worth trying to resist it- she will win. She's better at this than I am and also more ruthless. Although her behavior is classic BPD- there's a strong narcissistic streak to her. So my sense of control is with the time. I will rationalize that during my time with her, she'll have her way but I decide the time.

I also won't be alone with her. If I visit with other family members, she behaves better.

I understand how you are apprehensive about the visit. I would stay close to your H and also schedule breaks and let him deal with her.

[Notwendy]

Thinking about the most recent visits, they haven't gone well. I have tried to do nice things for her but she ends up being angry at me for something I "didn't do right". She wants to see my children- not me. They are young adults now- if they wanted to visit her, they can do it themselves. They are certainly old enough to travel wherever they want to. I don't try to force them to visit her. We have taken family trips to see her but not as often as she'd want .

When she has expressed her wishes, it's been that she wants to see them. She's asked my "golden child" to visit but not me. I don't know if she even wants me to visit her.

Makes me wonder if your DIL wants to see you, or just her father. While he's afraid you might "hurt her feelings" if you aren't making the effort to be with her, maybe she'd rather just be with him.

Best reason to schedule doing something for you. Go out to eat with a friend, schedule a pedicure, a walk, go to a coffee shop.

[GaGrl]

Makes me wonder if your DIL wants to see you, or just her father. While he's afraid you might "hurt her feelings" if you aren't making the effort to be with her, maybe she'd rather just be with him.

Best reason to schedule doing something for you. Go out to eat with a friend, schedule a pedicure, a walk, go to a coffee shop.

When my H and I married, I told my stepdaughter that it was important for her to have her private time with her father, and how much I had always enjoyed my time with my dad. I could see the understanding and relief wash across her face.

It's not that SD and I don't enjoy our talks and activities together -- she just needs dedicated time with her dad. Sometimes H flies out to visit for  about three days by himself, then I'll go next visit.

[livednlearned]

When my H and I married, I told my stepdaughter that it was important for her to have her private time with her father, and how much I had always enjoyed my time with my dad. I could see the understanding and relief wash across her face.

I have said the same to both girls, SD28 and SD25. We are blended on both sides so it's easy to say this and have it feel genuine. The difference with SD25 is that every second feels like an hour and it takes so much effort to be in her company.

I will be structuring the visit to make sure I have lots of time to do what I want. The key is how to manage when we are together.

No surprise -- SD28 has found a reason to not come. She has similar issues with SD25, altho I am surprised she maneuvered out of it so soon.

It will be easier if SS22 comes down with SD25 but they have an on/off relationship so it could be last minute before I find out if it's just SD25 coming. I mentioned changing the house rental to hotel but H pointed out it is cheaper to stay in the Airbnb and the location is better. We are sticking to the plan.

H shared a recent exchange of texts with SD25. I don't know why I'm sharing this here ... I think because sometimes I wonder if I'm the problem. I can see this is a person in a lot of emotional pain who has poor capacity to communicate what she actually wants and needs. And yet simultaneously I feel repulsion. Maybe I am not as healed from my own dysfunctional family as I thought. Sometimes I wish I could be a bigger person and not feel so impatient.

The following texts have nothing to do with me and yet I am beyond annoyed and my feelings are so intense I will walk out of the room if I hear SD25 discussing her body aches and pains with H. I don't understand why I am so bothered by something unrelated to me?

SD: This pain is becoming so stressful it's causing me to feel depressed and hopeless. Do you think the walking I did was ok? My chi breathing helped me to do the walking, and not feel in so much pain, and afterward felt more relaxed. Definitely have some pain now but it's not any worse than this time last night. Just feels different but same level of pain. When I was walking, I was careful to go slow. I focused on my breathing and I took a couple breaks.

H: Yes and keep up the good work

SD: I might do the body scan again.

H: emoji

SD: I notice at night around this time my stress increases and my pain is also higher. But gonna take a hot bath and stretch and do the body scan. Also, I think the walking loosened up my joints.

H: Pre bed anxiety. Very common. I get it sometimes too.

SD25: Yes, I think I've done too much stressing about my pain and anticipating what it will be like from day to day. Like worrying if I'm making good choices or overdoing it. Or if I will be in pain a moment from now. At night I notice it more and will be stressing.

H: Suffering equals pain times resistance.

SD25: I notice the more I stress, the more I feel it, the less I stress, the more I'm able to do comfortably. And I try to be aware of my reactions to it. But I guess all that is much easier during the day.

H: Yes

SD25: It takes practice.

H: Lifelong practice.

SD25: Yes, but when I do it, it empowers me.

H: Life is lifelong practice.

SD25: Hey dad, does eating too much chicken cause high cholesterol?

H: With skin and fries yes. Otherwise no.

SD25: I'm feeling severe anxiety and I'm not sure what else is going on and I feel very lightheaded and have GI issues.

H: It will pass. Try 3 minutes of mindful breathing.

SD25: I realize I am trying to push through because I don't want to take more time off, because people seem bothered that I have used a lot of PTO. But right now I literally have body aches and eye pain from exhaustion. I could make some extra money by going in tomorrow, but I am leaning towards taking a personal day so I can rest and recover. I have plans after work and I don't want to not be able to enjoy it because I'm feeling horrible.

H: Your decision and it is often a balance between money and free time.

SD25: I mean, it's less about free time and more about being so exhausted I'm in physical pain. Also, they didn't pay me yet for the last pay period. Because I still don't have direct deposit. Because no one would help me sign up. And there is probably a paycheck delayed in the mail. I could use sick time. But I was choosing to be honest that I am not sick and need sleep. And use personal time.

H: Spring break starts tomorrow or Saturday. You choose.

SD25: I'm not just looking for extra time to have fun. I'm in physical pain.

H: Make a decision and accept your choice.

S25: And now I'm kind of pissed they are blowing off me not getting paid.

H: Planning to have a different job next year? Talk this weekend.

SD25: Idk. Nvmd.

H: Suffering equals pain times resistance.

SD25: This has nothing to do with emotions and more to do with being physically exhausted and having body aches and eye pain. I am not gonna be out having fun. I would be sleeping.

H: Peace. Maybe a different career?

SD25: I haven't been sleeping well for reasons that don't have to do with work. I'll talk to you another day. That is also why my mood is so off. That's why I need the day but am afraid to take it. It's nothing to do with work though.

It is rare for H to choose to simply end the conversation, which he did this time. These texts are chronic and daily. SD25 will punish him until the tension builds and she starts up again, probably in 2-3 days when the pain becomes unbearable. 

[Notwendy]

What is the pain from?

Is she healthy? She's only 25.

I ask because, my BPD mother, who has been very healthy thankfully- ( medically healthy) seems to have been in some sort of "pain" for most of the time for as long as I can remember.

There is a thread on the relationship board, and the discussion is that they "feel" the emotional pain as physical, they can't quite identify it as emotions and with the mind-body connections - the stress does connect to physical pain.

There is also a lot of secondary gain. I think more than for feelings.

And it reinforces victim position.

Yet, in a sense, it is real for them.

[livednlearned]

What is the pain from?

Everything.

More recently it is leg pain that has no known cause despite MRI and multiple specialists evaluating her.

Gastric stuff has been ongoing since I've known her. She shares bowel information with H regularly. I managed to put a stop to this when it was discussed in front of me. And they no longer discuss body stuff while I'm eating. I'll take a win where I can.

Pain is as you say. She feels it, it's real.

I see her absorbing H language to please him while maintaining the pain is caused by something real (e.g. overuse injury), and then something else (work), and then this other thing (not work, not telling what).

In other parts of my life, my parents are discussing their will and preparations for dying. uBPD brother will be executor of the will. This is all hypothetical because my parents will hopefully live a long life but I can see how my fixation on the visit in September is in part connected, at least emotionally. There is often a person involved who wrecks everything, for seemingly no reason, when it doesn't have to be that way.

I think SD25 and uBPD brother hit the same part of my nervous system.

[GaGrl]

One of the primary characteristics I remember of my uBPD/NPD step grandmother was her constant talk and complaining of health problems, crises, operations, and pains.

My father had little patience with it and eventually did the same as you, lnl -- no body talk at the table.

Those kind of texts, every day, would wear me down. Especially when you can imagine the words in her actual voice. Does she whine?

[livednlearned]

Does she whine?

I can't say she whines, not exactly. She uses any method necessary, whatever works. 

She is different depending on who is around.

With SD28, she tends to use more guilt and anger.
With H, she is more waif.

I see a combination.

H is a "walk it off" guy and likes to say this phrase to the universe and anyone within listening range -- I think it is his deepest wish that people who can, will.

H and SD25 have a dynamic where she talks the talk (pain x resistance = suffering) per H's advice, but she doesn't walk the talk (pain x resistance = gold).

So in practice this becomes "dad, look at me I walked 6 miles today" followed by "now I cannot walk and will have to amputate my leg."

[I Am Redeemed]

Those texts sound like cries for attention; I'm sure you've already picked up on that. Kinda reminds me of how S6 will tell me about the most miniscule of scratches he obtained, just so he can get a bandaid which magically fixed his "pain".

Is this pretty much her MO for relating to your H? It sounds like she's trying in some way to get the same kind of attention one would give to a 6 year old with a scratch that's in no way a cause for concern. I know S6 isn't in pain when he gets a tiny scratch, he just wants validation that it's there and the fun of getting a bandaid.

Sounds like she's doing much the same thing- give me attention for these things and let me know I'm important to you. Very childlike, except she's not a child, so it's kind of cringe.

[livednlearned]

Is this pretty much her MO for relating to your H?

Yes.

Eventually she wears family out. She goes through friends who become exhausted.

With H, he grows weary or goes on autopilot, repeating the same advice or resorts to emojis, SD25 feels invalidated, and then *punishes* him for several days, a reprieve he enjoys.

Then it starts up again.

His concern is that she will get more sophisticated in this attention-seeking and become medicalized (his word).

[Notwendy]

I can understand how this would emotionally wear you two out, and because it is similar behavior to what my BPD mother does, I would also feel overwhelmed being around her.

I understand your H's concern. My BPD mother has been doing this for decades, and seeks medical attention. If you can also imagine, this kind of behavior is also difficult for medical providers, as they look for a medical condition, but with the emotional dysfunction, whatever they do isn't successful. For the providers who recommend mental health, she goes along with it but it isn't successful either as she doesn't seek insight. The medical problem also externalizes the issue for her.

I feel badly for your H, because, she is his daughter, and like those of us who have a BPD mother, this is a significant connection. If someone is in a relationship with a pwBPD- they can divorce that person ( yes I do understand the difficulty in that as well) but you can't "divorce" a parent or a child. NC is a choice, but a tough one, a drastic one. And as irritating as it is to see these dynamics, I also recognize your H's attachment as her parent- she's difficult, but he still loves her.

I think you can be supportive to him in the sense of being empathetic to his situation. But like the other relationships here- this one is his to decide on. Just like my H can be empathetic to my situation-but it's my mother, not his. He can't step in and do it for me. I have to learn to manage the situation as best as I can. 

So for the short term- the weekend. I do understand the apprehension about a weekend with this kind of dynamic. There would only be two choices here: do not stay with her or- get some time away from her. You can't "fix" this in a weekend so time away seems like the best option- schedule some things just for you.

Long term- H will have to learn where his boundaries are with this. I don't know how much counseling he has had, or recovery work but I think it would be helpful to him to do this.

[pursuingJoy]

Their communication is legit cringy, lnl. I've witnessed similar conversations between H and his mom, and H and his ex wife. It's oversharing of intimate information with an implied expectation that H will comfort and caretake in a way that also feels intimate. The expectation is exposed in their anger when their need isn't met. It feels yucky. I don't manage it well, and they are unwilling to change the dynamic, so distance from her keeps me sane.

The key is how to manage when we are together.

It helps me to have something other than her behavior to focus on. I always structure visits to MIL - from moment to moment, there's a planned activity, a goal I can work towards. It also helps immensely when others, especially not family, are around to buffer. MIL lays it on thick if it's just me and H. Can you bring your friend, or anyone back to the house with you to visit?

[livednlearned]

If you can also imagine, this kind of behavior is also difficult for medical providers, as they look for a medical condition, but with the emotional dysfunction, whatever they do isn't successful.

Very true Notwendy. H is a medical provider so this is doubly challenging for him.

He believes she experiences genuine pain -- the pain is real. I believe this, too.

What is challenging for him is the medicalization of the pain. Getting a lot of tests, or taking meds, or doing something invasive are all things that he feels lead to poorer health outcomes so he walks a fine line with her. Validating and then steering towards healthy practices that are not invasive.

I'm taking a moment to be thankful that suicidal ideation is no longer how she copes, so it seems. Focusing on leg pain is better than the alternative and I'm grateful for that, for her and for the rest of the family.

A therapist I saw many years ago once said that we replace unhealthy coping mechanisms with healthy ones. Meaning, we will probably always have coping mechanisms when there is childhood trauma, the key is to replace destructive ones with healthier ones. I'm trying to find the silver lining here because there is one, even if it may not be perfect.

It's oversharing of intimate information with an implied expectation that H will comfort and caretake in a way that also feels intimate. The expectation is exposed in their anger when their need isn't met. It feels yucky. I don't manage it well, and they are unwilling to change the dynamic, so distance from her keeps me sane.

Do you feel that you suffer in hard to measure ways when you are not able to be authentic? I think that is fundamentally what I am grappling with here. What are the costs of tiptoeing? I don't mean drop all the skills and run ... it's more about when to say what is important to me and when do I hold it in?

I've never fully understood what people mean when they say stand in your truth. I intellectually understand this and I am down for it as a principle. But when I look at my life, I see how accommodating I am in general and lately I see the ripple effect of speaking up, even if the ripples are small. H and I are both kind people, perhaps to a fault. I am getting better at asserting boundaries and connecting my feelings with actions in the moment versus letting so much slide. I am better at staying in my lane and not being triangulated.

What I am not better at is focusing on what feels authentic and strengthening that muscle. It is less about preventing SD25 from doing something, it is more about what cost am I paying in general when I do not speak. It goes back to Notwendy's insights into resentment.

When I speak up authentically, it feels like I am affirming who I am, strengthening my own sense of self and confirming I am a person who feels this or thinks that.

That is not nothing for me, especially with a dysfunctional family all my own, with two aging parents and a uBPD brother that I am trying to navigate. It is death by a thousand paper cuts.

It helps me to have something other than her behavior to focus on. I always structure visits to MIL - from moment to moment, there's a planned activity, a goal I can work towards. It also helps immensely when others, especially not family, are around to buffer. MIL lays it on thick if it's just me and H. Can you bring your friend, or anyone back to the house with you to visit?

I think what this thread is helping me recognize is that I will manage the environment so that it works for me, like you suggest. That being in this family means we don't have to all like each other, but let's at least make it work, and by us I mean me. 

I just feel the need to give myself a pep talk that it's also ok to call out behavior that isn't ok --done as tactfully as I can manage -- and be prepared for the fall-out.

I think it was Harriet Lerner (Dance of Anger) who said we care for others at the expense of self, or we care for self at the expense of others, that it is a tricky balancing act between those two.

For this visit, and another one brewing (SD25 coming here), I am going to see what it's like to focus on self, not in a selfish way but in a way where I am not running or hiding or avoiding or giving away the farm to keep peace.

[GaGrl]

When was the last time you spoke your truth to SD25 in a way that left you feeling empowered? Was it a stronger statement than you usually use? What was different about it?

[livednlearned]

When was the last time you spoke your truth to SD25 in a way that left you feeling empowered? Was it a stronger statement than you usually use? What was different about it?

I have asserted boundaries and that feels empowering. Speaking truth feels like something different.

Speaking truth would be, "We don't stay with my parents because it creates unnecessary tension and stress. I feel the same way about staying with SD25."

Speaking truth would be, "Since we are staying in the house together, please know that I will speak up if I feel disrespected or manipulated or bothered. I ask that you do not interfere and let me work things out with SD25 directly."

Speaking truth would be, "SD25, I'm uncomfortable with the way you're touching your dad."

 

Asserting boundaries has helped me regain some power back and I know that SD25 feels it. What feels the same is me putting my well-being below everyone else's and spending a lot of time trying to figure out how to get through things without ruffling feathers.

 

[Notwendy]

One thing I learned was to present things with an "I" perspective. It's more about us owning our boundaries.

I assume this is to your H:

"I have chosen not to stay with my parents because it creates unnecessary tension and stress. I feel the same way about staying with SD25."


If not this time since plans are made, maybe for another one-


Also to your H: "Since we are staying in the house together, please know that I do not wish to be disrespected or manipulated or bothered. I ask that you do not interfere and let me work things out with SD25 directly."

Rather than speak up, you also may wish to just remove yourself from the situation and go to your room or run an errand. You can also speak up but sometimes it's better to just walk away.

Speaking truth would be, "SD25, I'm uncomfortable with the way you're touching your dad."

This isn't actually your boundary- it's your H's. As much as this seems creepy - he's the one who should be feeling creeped out. I hope she's acting more like a 4 year old clinging to her Dad than as a grown woman ( which she is) but he needs to have a boundary if it's inappropriate. I'd direct this to him. "I'm uncomfortable with the way SD 25 is touching you."

With your H- He may be less sensitive to her discussing her medical issues with him.  On the other hand, he isn't her therapist or health care provider and probably also feels overburdened by daily calls about this. To me, this is sounding like he has difficulties with boundaries with her- engaging in these calls, wanting her to stay with you both, allowing her to cling to him and that this bothers you as much as, ( and maybe more? ) than her behavior with you?

It may mean some kind of counseling session for the two of you where you can speak your truth to him. He may not feel able to change the dynamics with his D but possibly reduce some contact- such as weekly calls rather than daily, different places to stay when they visit, and other ways to have boundaries rather than confront her with the behaviors.

[pursuingJoy]

Speaking truth feels like something different.

Speaking truth would be, "We don't stay with my parents because it creates unnecessary tension and stress. I feel the same way about staying with SD25."

Speaking truth would be, "Since we are staying in the house together, please know that I will speak up if I feel disrespected or manipulated or bothered. I ask that you do not interfere and let me work things out with SD25 directly."

Speaking truth would be, "SD25, I'm uncomfortable with the way you're touching your dad."

As someone who spends a lot of time controlling what and how I say everything, obsessing about and asserting my own boundaries, what's effective, and how they're going to make the people around me feel, I really appreciate the distinction you're making about speaking truth. It would be so liberating just to say, in the moment, 'I'm uncomfortable.'

I'm usually in shock so I'm late to the party. At SD29's engagement party, my MIL randomly mentioned that H and his ex wife were late to their wedding reception because they couldn't 'wait.' I kick myself now for saying nothing. I wish I'd looked at her and just said, "That makes me so uncomfortable."

Granted, and because I overthink everything, I suspect making me uncomfortable was the whole point. I imagine your SD has the same goal with you and affection towards her dad. Knowing we're uneasy builds their confidence in their attachment. Maybe an unimpressed, "What an odd thing to share in this setting, in front of H and his daughter, no less," would be more effective with MIL. But you know what? Life is messy. Surely there is a time and place to just say what I feel, because I need to.

In your case I might also find satisfaction in, "My goodness with that level of affection in public, people would think you were married! How awkward would that be?"

[livednlearned]

Rather than speak up, you also may wish to just remove yourself from the situation and go to your room or run an errand. You can also speak up but sometimes it's better to just walk away.

More often than not, I walk away.

I am second-guessing the walking away.

I don't want to walk away anymore.

I want to stay and be authentic. By authentic, I don't mean say whatever I want. I mean say it skillfully because something happening is my reality.

Disordered people are in my reality.

That has to mean something, my reality. Especially if I have compromised to do something I don't want to do (share a house).

The last couple of days I was thinking about how tense my jaw muscles are, how I have this back spasm that flares up when I see my family. I kept thinking, "I'm wound up about SD25 because of my family" a thought I have often about everything in my life. As though having an explanation for why I am more bothered by behaviors means that those behaviors are not the problem. I become the problem.

I feel like I have gotten something wrong and maybe I'm not understanding something correctly. "We can only change ourselves" has made me put 100 percent effort into what I can control and wow, am I ever doing a lot of controlling.

I might be getting to the end of my rope. If I am bothered by SD25 behaviors because I have a uBPD brother and married then divorced a n/BPDx, that minimizes how I feel. I talk about this cup that is empty or full, and how full it is changes how I deal with SD25. But if I'm to be honest with myself, having a uBPD brother and golden child father and adult child mother and n/BPDx husband means it takes a lot to fill that cup. On a good day with SD25, I'm lucky to have it half full. Having a loving marriage with H fills a lot of that cup and I'm healthy and like my work and see good things happening for S20, who has been in and out of hospitals for the last 4 years.

Walking away does drain that cup. Maybe not in that moment but in the big picture of my life and recovery and well-being, it's just saying that my voice doesn't matter.

I don't know if this is making any sense. I feel like I could cry sometimes thinking about how much I shift to the right and left and never stand my ground over things that matter. It's like I have a phantom limb that can't be real because I'm reluctant to use it. I want to use it. I might even be getting to a point where I need to use it.

As someone who spends a lot of time controlling what and how I say everything, obsessing about and asserting my own boundaries, what's effective, and how they're going to make the people around me feel, I really appreciate the distinction you're making about speaking truth. It would be so liberating just to say, in the moment, 'I'm uncomfortable.'

You are my board twin  so I am truly grateful to hear you say this.

Granted, and because I overthink everything, I suspect making me uncomfortable was the whole point.

Yes.

In your case I might also find satisfaction in, "My goodness with that level of affection in public, people would think you were married! How awkward would that be?"

This is the crux of it for me. I am gracious to a fault if there is such a thing. Putting people at ease, laughing things off, being tactful, being the *bigger* person. Learning skills so I can manage difficult people. I'm not mad about that. I'm feeling the cost of it though.

More and more I am thinking of these get togethers as an opportunity to simply experience my own reality. For me. Even if I do this half way, chances are it will probably be well within the realm of polite even if the reactions are outsized.

I am so very very very tired of putting others first at the expense of myself.

[kells76]

That makes sense -- that as much as "well my FOO had PD issues" can be an explanation, it can also minimize the fact that there is a disordered person in your life doing disordered things in front of you right now, independently of what happened in your family and in your past.

What would you want to say in that moment of staying and being authentic, if you knew you that at the end of the day H would have your back (or at least not "interfere")?

For me that would be the biggest thing -- whether my H & I could have some pre-understanding that I was gonna do what I was gonna do, and he wouldn't "try to make it different" or "try to get me to apologize" or "try to help me see how I was in the wrong" or whatever.

If I were in your shoes, I would want to know that I could look at SD25 being all gross, tell her something really frank like "SD25, that's gross and inappropriate to touch your father that way", and then at the end of the day H wouldn't be reactive/activated about it. I mean, it's not like I'd want him to be like "Rah rah, you go girl, you tell her", but if I could "know" that at most he'd be like "huh, well that sure was something" and then go about his business managing his own relationships and not mine... that would make a big difference in my sense of "can I be authentic and frank". I really wouldn't want to deal with not only SD25's dysfunction, but H's reaction (judgment? blame? triangle? responsibility shifting? guilt trip? wound up?) to my choice.

But then that also raises the question of "can I be authentic and frank on my own, regardless of whether or not my spouse is supportive?"

[livednlearned]

"can I be authentic and frank on my own, regardless of whether or not my spouse is supportive?"

That's the big question  

[livednlearned]

What would you want to say in that moment of staying and being authentic, if you knew you that at the end of the day H would have your back (or at least not "interfere")?

Let's say the trip ends up with H, me, and SD25 staying in the house for 72 hours and SD25 announces she will be staying longer.

An authentic response is, "No. I need to be consulted and I wasn't. Frankly, I feel disrespected."

There are dozens of smaller instances that feel like games. The behaviors are almost normal but the intent feels very calculated to create a one-up for SD25 and a one-down for me.

[beatricex]

hi livedandlearned,
I have been reading your thread and have almost responded several times.
I hear you when you say: I am so very very very tired of putting others first at the expense of myself.

I too have a step daughter very similar to yours.  I did finally "tap out" though.  I just told my husband I couldn't keep doing it, it was making me too uncomfortable.

We are actually no contact with her for almost 2 years now (her choice, she gave her Dad an ultimatum that he must divorce me or he'd never see her or her kids again).

Marriage counseling helped...so did me speaking my truth as you say.  But not to the BPD that just doesn't work, we know they need validation, kid gloves.

I mean, to my H.

 

b

[Notwendy]

Marriage counseling helped...so did me speaking my truth as you say.  But not to the BPD that just doesn't work,

I agree with this. My reasons for walking away, rather than to speak my truth, isn't because I am keeping the peace. It's because in my own experience, saying something  doesn't work.

It's like a boomerang with my mother, as if she's got some kind of force field around her that saying something that she may take as even hint that her behavior isn't acceptable gets projected back at me. She goes into victim mode.

When we do "speak our truth" to someone - it's with the assumption that they can hear it, that they are able to have some sort of relationship with us, that they can navigate a relationship. For me, I have decided ( after decades of trying to connect somehow to my mother that her behavior is hurtful at times- and it doesn't work) that this kind of relationship is not possible.

I recall once I was visiting family ( and that was when I still stayed with my parents) that my mother snapped at me and I could tell she was beginning to get into a rage. I didn't say a thing. I picked up my suitcase and walked out the door, and left. A family member said she was puzzled " what is wrong with NW?"

But she eventually got the message without my saying anything- she starts this, I leave the conversation.

I think honestly, your boundary would have to be don't stay in the same place with your SD. Maybe not this time, but after this.

The person you can speak your truth to is your H. He's invested in his relationship with you. It may take a counseling session. A counselor as a third party is helpful as they are objective and can lead the discussion forward.

[livednlearned]

Marriage counseling helped...so did me speaking my truth as you say.  But not to the BPD that just doesn't work, we know they need validation, kid gloves.

I guess it depends on what the point is of speaking truth. For me, it is putting myself back in the equation after decades of having so many people take for granted I can be easily removed.

It is the curse of the conflict avoidant.

I don't mean saying willy-nilly how I feel because I see the benefits of having a filter. It is more about being true in moments where it genuinely matters to me that I say something.

If no one else is going to do it, I have to be the one putting myself back into the equation. There is no one else to blame.

When we do "speak our truth" to someone - it's with the assumption that they can hear it, that they are able to have some sort of relationship with us, that they can navigate a relationship.

For me, the assumption is more about: I can hear it, I can feel it.

I am able to speak truth with H. Not always in the moment, and sometimes it is messy and repairs are needed. He may disagree with this assessment, but I think I have enabled him to treat me as inconsequential.

Four years ago I was the last to learn that the three kids and H's ex in-laws were coming for Christmas. Yes, ex. The parents of H's uBPD ex wife. I  would find out from H that SD25 and her BF were staying the weekend. I am not included in the discussions about summer visits and I will be the last to know if SD25 chooses to extend her stay.

Why?

Somehow I am considered not relevant. And whose fault is that? I speak honestly to H and he hears me yet these things keep happening and the one thing in common is that I don't make anyone uncomfortable.

I should have said to H's ex mother-in-law, "If you'd like to come for the holidays, check in with me."

I should have said to SD25: "If you are coming to visit BF (living in another state) in my home, clear it with me."

I should have said to BF: "If you come visit SD25, arrange to arrive after she gets here."

I should have said to H when he tacked on SD25 to any event, "I feel disrespected."

When I think back to what I have tolerated in my life, including physical abuse into my mid 20s from uBPD brother and enabling parents, and a vicious marriage and divorce with uBPDx, it guts me. I have come such a long way and I am in a much healthier place. But there is this last piece and it feels so essential to my healing, to be able to say something reasonable about how I feel when it's appropriate.

[Notwendy]

I can relate and I think there's an explanation for this.

We were raised to avoid conflict and not be the squeaky wheel. But the squeaky wheel gets the attention and when someone is a people pleaser who also can't say no, then the needs of the most compliant one are neglected to avoid conflict with the most troublesome one.

Dad would expect me to comply as BPD mother  would pitch a fit if she didn't get her way. We had to overcompensate in the family balance of things- be lowest priority so to avoid conflict with the difficult one.

You mentioned your H is codependent- he's a people pleaser and so wants to have his cake and eat it too- please his SD and have you go along with it..

Similar dynamics as pursuing joy, her H and BPDMIL.

I also was putting myself last priority with my H. I blame myself for that. All I knew growing up was that I had to be a doormat to be loved and when we do that, people respond accordingly. My feelings and needs were ignored by my parents and so, I didn't really know how to relate differently.

The key though - was my own feelings of resentment. I think they are there for you too. Resentment was a sign that something has to change. For me, it took counseling and 12 step meetings- with the support of a sponsor to make changes.  Now, I think our tendencies are habitual for us, we have to stay aware of them and resist them.

I'd be furious if all these people were invited to my house without discussing it with me. Naturally, we tolerate some family members for the sake of unity but this needs to be mutually agreed on. I'd feel disrespected as well ( I'd be thinking about booking a hotel for me and let H have Christmas with his guests).

If SD comes with her BF- they can get a hotel. Your H can pay for her to stay in a hotel if he wants to.

I think some discussion about how to navigate this together, maybe with a counselor, so you can have your boundaries could help.

[livednlearned]

I might be done with counseling, with preparations and discussions, tbh.

At least I feel that way typing out my feelings here.

It's not really about other people. This is a me thing.

After 7 years estrangement with my golden child dad, nothing -- and I mean nothing -- was said about the estrangement. H and I went to my parents' condo and we walked to dinner. My dad walked with H. I walked with my mom. Like nothing happened. H said it was surreal. It took him a couple of days to process.

Pre-vaccine Covid, I managed to get into Canada and stayed in quarantine for 14 days with my dad while my mom was in the hospital. We did not discuss the estrangement. I'm inside the condo for 14 days and there is nowhere for my dad to go except hospital and supermarket and yet we talk about nothing.

Day 13 I broached the subject and we grit our teeth through to some kind of detente. It shocked him that I could go quiet for so long. I felt he was seething and also aware if he crosses the new line I have for myself, this detente will end and we will be back to estrangement. Finally, after 50 years of being the garbage bin for this family, he recognizes I have something that looks like a backbone.

uBPD brother didn't graduate from high school (family lie says he did), golden child dad pays for his apartment to get him out of the house, gets him his first job, helps him build up a side job, gives him $250K down payment on a house, tolerates rages and furies that go on for decades .. and then he is made executor of the will and health care POA. Which I learned of while driving my dad to cataract surgery, a 4 hour drive from my home with a ferry and border crossing because uBPD brother, who lives 20 min from my parents, is too squeamish to drive my dad. Perfect guy to be HC POA.

Whereas I get my phd with no help from family, including a father who encouraged me to drop out of uni after getting sick for six weeks and falling behind in classes, no help with housing when I'm going through my divorce, no help with legal fees (bad investment).

Weeks and months after my divorce from n/BPDx husband, a lawyer whose behaviors was so egregrious the judge filed a gatekeeping order, my dad finds out my mother has offered to help pay for my therapy and it makes him mad she would offer money without talking to him.  His solution is to take money out of my son's education trust and have my mom pay back the loan from her monthly government pension, solving the problem by hurting as many people as possible.

As I come back into his life, I see so clearly how there was initially more respect (a post-estrangement type), followed by small tests that now have me back where I was, the family garbage can.

Why? Because I do not say reasonable things at appropriate times.

My dad's brother died and there is a memorial this summer that H and I changed vacation plans so we could attend. Today, I backed out. I am nobody at these family gatherings and it takes days to process the specific ways my family avoids meaningful connection. Days that would impact one of the first genuine family-free vacations H and I have planned in our 10 years together.

I need this for myself.

My parents will age and uBPD brother will make decisions about their health. It will be hard to bear witness to the chaos that will come to his kids and wife, and to my parents and anyone involved in their care. I will have no say.

I think I am approaching next level radical acceptance with people who act like @ssh0les.

In spite of the conflict it may generate, saying what I feel earns my respect for me.

After all these years, I am finally genuinely truly angry how I have been treated and how I let others treat me.


 

[Turkish]

livednlearned,

You should be extremely proud of what you've accomplished.

It's sad, to say the least, that your dad put your low-functioning brother in charge of him.  You've done enough. Take care of yourself.

Notwendy seems to have a better grasp on Family Systems, but I'd say that you're not in the fold because you're more differentiated as an individual as opposed to an accessory to Family stability, such as it is. Seen as a threat, you as a mirror make them uncomfortable.

[Notwendy]

Turkish- I didn't always have these boundaries but I agree that not being my mother's favorite child led to me feeling more separate from her. Still, we were expected to appease her.

My default is to appease, and so it takes some effort to act differently.

For livednlearned I agree with Turkish- you have gone through a lot and have accomplished a lot. While it's hurtful that your father put his trust in your brother, like Turkish said- it's about the usefulness to the family dynamics- not who is the most trustworthy or competent. It's not personal to you. You may also have been seen as the most differentiated to them.

In 12 steps they talk about "hitting bottom" and I understand your feeling of being fed up with the dynamics and that it is time to stand up for yourself and your feelings.

[wendydarling]

Along with others I walk with you, as I walk alongside my DD.  

WDx

[pursuingJoy]

After all these years, I am finally genuinely truly angry how I have been treated and how I let others treat me.

But there is this last piece and it feels so essential to my healing, to be able to say something reasonable about how I feel when it's appropriate.

And consider the cost if you don't speak up.

I appreciate you sharing because it helps me put words to many of my own feelings. You'll find an effective, filtered way of honoring these values...it sounds like you always have in small ways, with some people, but the color needs to intensify now. 

[Notwendy]

wendydarling- dealing with BPD in any close relationship is a challenge, and with a child, it has to be heartbreaking. Walking the line between holding them responsible ( knowing that they may not make the best decisions) and protecting them to the point of enabling has to be very hard. Family bonds are the most special ones- and it astounds me how someone with BPD can strain them.

[beatricex]

I am approaching next level radical acceptance with people who act like @ssh0les.

woo hoo!  love it, that is so awesome 

[khibomsis]

Totally  agree with the notion that the golden child never gets to be a person, only an appendage. We found that the children and grandchildren who had most contact with my uNBPD mom turned out to be BPD themselves. Those of us who got away (me scape goat and 'spare wheel' sibling) got to have lives and seek mental health. Yes we suffered for it financially in the short term but in the long term we are doing much better. Because we learned to take care of ourselves young and that sustains our financial health now.

 I actually feel sorry for golden child brother, now that mom and dad are gone he is growing ever more mentally unstable. Not least because though we (his siblings) try to be supportive there is no way we are going to enable. Old family system is broken into pieces. Wonderful to break the cycle! The next generation turning out a little better as we strive to let everyone feel safe and valued.

LnL I follow your posts and love your wisdom and insight. Yes, for sure take your time now and live authentically. Wishing you all the best.
 

[Notwendy]

The pattern is similar in my family too. The golden child has been more enmeshed and was financially dependent longer. Ironically, BPD mother is more emotionally and verbally abusive to the GC, who still feels obligated to tolerate this.

My parents have been more supportive of the GC financially- paid more for college, automobile, etc, but if the other side of this is enmeshment, it's not a good thing.

Lnl, it's frustrating that your parents made your brother HC POA. This has nothing to do with you, but with them. It will be frustrating to see this, but keep in mind- it was their choice and so you are not responsible for this. Your father clearly has some kind of issue- but it's not about you.

You don't have to accept this kind of behavior and I am glad you are not!

[livednlearned]

While it's hurtful that your father put his trust in your brother, like Turkish said- it's about the usefulness to the family dynamics- not who is the most trustworthy or competent. It's not personal to you. You may also have been seen as the most differentiated to them.

I am feeling even more radical acceptance as I see signs my adult child mother absorbing the news that uBPD brother will make decisions about her health and well-being if my dad goes first. I see her  punishing my dad with passive aggression. It will go nowhere because it never does. My dad has a chuckle when he sees her using these tactics to get her way. The chuckle means, I see you there trying to advocate for yourself. And yet, your needs fall beneath mine. Dismissed.

For the first time in my life, I see how little power I ever had to influence these dynamics and I accept that when and if uBPD brother makes a decision that I disagree with, the sad truth is that they created that outcome for themselves, with intention.

It is a relief to not take this personally.

[livednlearned]

You should be extremely proud of what you've accomplished.

  thank you for saying that Turkish. I downplayed achievements as a kid because it drew attention, and attention ended badly with a deeply insecure uBPD sibling. Accepting positive recognition from others is something I'm learning to do. 

It's sad, to say the least, that your dad put your low-functioning brother in charge of him.  You've done enough.

Amen.

I'd say that you're not in the fold because you're more differentiated as an individual as opposed to an accessory to Family stability, such as it is. Seen as a threat, you as a mirror make them uncomfortable.

It makes so little sense that I am a threat, though I see what you're saying. The ways in which I assert myself are so under the radar. Same as the way I am with SD25. It is the absence of what I do or say, more than the presence of what I do or say. That's how I get by.

consider the cost if you don't speak up.

The cost has been through the roof already.

Totally  agree with the notion that the golden child never gets to be a person, only an appendage.

Do you feel that applies to the scapegoat as well? I never felt like I was a real person to anyone in my family. Although I suspect it was easier for me to recognize I wasn't attached and could differentiate and get distance (especially after going through a BPD divorce and being more or less forced to make sense of underlying family dynamics).

I actually feel sorry for golden child brother, now that mom and dad are gone he is growing ever more mentally unstable.

I don't really understand the differences and similarities between full-blown BPD/NPD and golden child traits but it does seem like there is a continuum.

As I go through this, whatever this is, it feels like I'm setting something heavy down. A big bag of grief and hope and disappointment. I am feeling peace from this that I hope is here to stay.