Nothing normal about having been a "daddy's girl"

[Our abuse recovery guide]

I have just finished reading Silently Seduced and have discovered that there is nothing "normal" about having been a daddy's girl and that there are some very harmful consequences for those of us who were either daddy's girls, or are still be idealizing our fathers, and it is something that we have to be willing confront in order to be able to heal from our childhoods. Our fathers were as exploitive as our mothers were, even though they may have appeared to be the "good parent". Personally, I am now seriously beginning to wonder if the impact of my father's behavior on me was even more harmful than my mother's.

I highly recommend this book to anyone who still thinks that their father was the "good guy". FYI, the book doesn't vilify parents just in case anyone is concerned about that. The author is Dr. Ken Adams and he has some very good free webinars on the subject of enmeshment. Here is one that I thought was excellent: https://www.overcomingenmeshment.com/overcoming-enmeshment-webinar-6-enmeshment-recovery-goals-and-what-the-road-looks-like/

[Couscous]

I have just finished reading Silently Seduced and have discovered that there is nothing "normal" about having been a daddy's girl and that there are some very harmful consequences for those of us who were either daddy's girls, or are still be idealizing our fathers, and it is something that we have to be willing confront in order to be able to heal from our childhoods. Our fathers were as exploitive as our mothers were, even though they may have appeared to be the "good parent". Personally, I am now seriously beginning to wonder if the impact of my father's behavior on me was even more harmful than my mother's.

I highly recommend this book to anyone who still thinks that their father was the "good guy". FYI, the book doesn't vilify parents just in case anyone is concerned about that. The author is Dr. Ken Adams and he has some very good free webinars on the subject of enmeshment. Here is one that I thought was excellent: https://www.overcomingenmeshment.com/overcoming-enmeshment-webinar-6-enmeshment-recovery-goals-and-what-the-road-looks-like/

[zachira]

My father also enabled my mother, though he treated me better than she did. He tried really hard to be a better father after my aunt talked to him about how he neglected me while putting my sister on a pedestal. He clearly matched my mother in many ways in his level of immaturity, and asked me not to upset her because she refused to get help for her problems. Would it be safe to say in your case, that both your parents did not know how to be good parents to you, and you were left taking care of both them, instead of them taking care of you? Yes, it is not normal to be a "daddy's girl", and this is likely part of your father's inablity to have a mature relationship with a  mature woman, and be a father to his daughter. If you feel comfortable sharing, could you tell us what were the most harmful parts of being "daddy's girl, both during your childhood and as an adult?

[WalkbyFaith]

To me growing up, my dad was certainly the safer, more reliable, and more fun parent. I was a "daddy's girl." I could even express to him frustration with my mom at times. He was almost always there for me.

A few years ago I had to confront a painful childhood memory of my mom slapping me in the face when I was only about 6 years old, myself trying to seek safety and comfort from my father, and being told not to, that he wouldn't protect me because I deserved it. That memory began to unearth some feelings and realizations that my dad did not protect or defend me like he should have when I was growing up. Some other specific memories surfaced as well... and even into adulthood, when my mom sends her rambling, accusatory messages, she often uses "we think" language (instead of "I think") using my dad as a teammate against me, and he is silent, not stepping up for me at all.

I think the kicker was a couple years ago on Mothers Day, when he posted on facebook, "Happy Mothers Day to the best mother I could have asked for for our girls." It made me sick. Really? The best you could have asked for?

Summary : I no longer consider myself a daddy's girl.

[Notwendy]

I was a daddy's girl too. I think it's normal for girls to look up to their fathers. What isn't normal is the Karpman triangle dynamics in the family and the parentification- but this was a result of the not normal BPD/co-dependent relationship between my parents.

I too perceived my father as the good guy and somehow a victim of my BPD mother's behavior. It was when I had to work on my own co-dependent tendencies that I understood how his co-dependency fit into the relationship with my mother and that he was just as much a part of the dynamics. I don't think he intended for me to be enlisted as a co-dependent to her as well- but I think it was just how things had to work in the family. We all depended on him to provide. In the sense of being the provider, and trying to take on the role of both parents, he truly was the good guy.

But his attention and approval was conditional. He was enmeshed with my mother and they acted as if they were one person. If she was angry at me, he'd rally to her side. He loved me to the extent that he fulfilled his parental obligations. For me, he was the whole world, my only parent, I truly cared about him and valued the relationship. I don't know if it was reciprocal. He cared about BPD mother more than anything else. I do see the exploitation of this innocent child admiration and love for him, but I don't know if it was intentional or simply the way we had to function with a severely BPD family member.

BPD mother on the other hand was not subtle about her feelings towards me,  and even if Dad didn't actively stand up to her behaviors, even his presence was protective.  She is extremely disordered and we kids were afraid of her when we were little. We did have some fun times going to the park, the zoo, the movies, with Dad. I think he tried, and we are far better off for having him as a parent.

[Couscous]

Zachira,

TBH I am still reeling from reading the excerpt below, which hit me like several tons of bricks. I think it’s going to take me a few days to climb out of the rubble…

Deal with your feelings toward the same-sex parent.

Deal with your anger of being abandoned by this parent and being left to be the spouse for the other. This situation always invokes a deep sense of anger. It is important to differentiate anger from the hate and contempt you feel. Generally, hate and contempt are the feelings that the opposite-sex parent felt toward the same-sex parent and were inappropriately transferred to you. Those feelings needed to be dealt with directly by your parents between each other. You were caught in the middle and carried feelings that were not yours to begin with. Hate and contempt keep you from feeling an attachment to the same-sex parent. Begin to let go of those feelings by acknowledging they weren’t yours in the first place.

Although it explains so much, I am really struggling with the possibility that this could be true, and to accept that my father may have been the real villain in this story. I absolutely do have feelings of hatred and contempt towards my mother. And no, those feelings are not naturally there because my mother was abusive. If that were that were the case then I would have the same feelings toward my father because, as it turns out, he was just as, or even more abusive, and I do not have feelings of hate and contempt for him.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Did you ever experienced anger, hate and contempt for your father at some point in life though?

My mother triangulated me against my father AND I carried my father contempt toward my mother. My rage toward my mother though is my own and a direct mirror result of the rage she unleashed upon me when I was at my most vulnerable. none are villains, none are victims, because none were children... both were irresponsible and needed to mature emotionnally.

My father did over time, allowing our relationship to evolve. my mother didn't and remained abusive.

I processed my anger toward my father in my early twenties, without realizing that's what was happening. I never processed my feelings toward my mother, because I never could express my anger toward her.

I remember a discussion in particular where I told bluntly to my father I hated him... Not my proudest moment. But he allowed me to express it and to walk with him toward healing. He never called me a daddy's girl, my mother did, because she was jealous that I could safely attach myself to him and not to her.

It helps me to remind myself that there is no villains in my past... just lost traumatized children... One matured toward healing, the other didn't and still refuse to take responsibility for her emotional abuse.

Also note that I oscillated between my parents depending what was happening in my life. My mother did not allow me to be close to both of them at the same time, and my father abandoned me many times through life, choosing some crazy girlfriends...

I noticed that whenever I felt close or empathy toward my mother, I'd feel anger toward my father, and whenever I felt closer to my father, I'd feel contempt toward my mother...

In the end though, today, I am choosing to look at the present relationships and the person they are NOW, and the end result is : my father is not abusive and he offers me safety to grow and be myself. She doesn't.

[Notwendy]

Generally, hate and contempt are the feelings that the opposite-sex parent felt toward the same-sex parent and were inappropriately transferred to you. Those feelings needed to be dealt with directly by your parents between each other. You were caught in the middle and carried feelings that were not yours to begin with.

Oh my goodness.

I need to read that book but only at a time that I can manage the feelings I will have when reading it.

In order for my father to stay with my mother, and feel love for her, he had to also do something about his feelings of anger and rage that he felt for her as he could not direct them at her.

I think though- that my feelings towards my BPD mother were mine. I am her scapegoat child. She didn't treat me kindly. In addition, she could act out in horrible ways and still, Dad just seemed to cater to her every whim, while I was a good kid, a good adult daughter and it didn't ever seem to register as good enough for them.

This is how it went:

Dad couldn't control BPD mother's behavior and there were no consequences for what she did- but there were high expectations and consequences for me.

If she wanted something, dad couldn't say no to her, so he said no a lot-  to me- even for the smallest most inexpensive requests.

Dad could not get angry at her, but he was quick to snap at me for the smallest mistake.

Here is how I would say it:

Generally, hate and contempt are the feelings that the opposite-sex parent felt toward the same-sex parent and were inappropriately directed at you. Those feelings needed to be dealt with directly by your parents between each other.

[Couscous]

Did you ever experienced anger, hate and contempt for your father at some point in life though?

Not until last week… I had been in a coalition with my father starting at age 5. My mother was never able to succeed in turning me against him like she did with my 3 younger siblings, who had hatred and contempt for my mother.

I thought that my father was half-safe, but I am not so sure anymore. I think he is pretending to play ball with my new boundaries as long as I don’t completely cut the ‘apron strings’.

Last week he used some pretty heavy handed guilt tactics on me in order manipulate me into agreeing to move countries where I do not speak the language in order to take over his business so that he doesn’t have to deal with the hassle of selling it. I drew a hard boundary on that last week, and then was flooded with feelings of guilt which lasted for several days until I was able to snap out of it, and then I felt pure outrage over his outrageous request and unethical manipulation tactics. This I am sure came as a complete shock to him, and I sure hope that the fact that he didn’t immediately attack me rules out the possibility that he’s a malignant narcissist, but it might be too early to say.

I am feeling more and more in my gut that he is not a safe person, and I am realizing that I must distance myself from him. Just typing this is bringing feelings of fear in me which I don’t really understand. A few months ago he said to me, ‘You know, I am really not a nice person’, and it has really stuck in my mind. I really, really hope that he is not a covert malignant narcissist…

[Couscous]

Notwendy,

This is how I understand the process:

1. A mother enmeshes with her son due to her own trauma.
2. Her son grows up and gets married, and then projects his mother onto wife.
3. He then punishes his wife (mother) by ‘spousifying’ their daughter, thus betraying his wife.
4. This results in his wife getting very angry, but she displaces her anger towards her husband onto the daughter whom she scapegoats.
5. The father doesn’t protect the daughter because he would rather she be the target than he.
6. The mother looks like the persecutor, when really the husband is, and he set the daughter up for the abuse.

[Notwendy]

Interesting dynamics.

In my situation though, my mother is severely BPD and her behavior is over the top and abusive. So it's not as if she's the innocent wife that the husband is projecting his own anger at his mother on. BPD mother is the source of her own abusive behavior towards her immediate family.

I don't think my father "spousified" me to punish BPD mother. It was pretty clear that my status was "lower" than her. It was more that he adultified me as I was capable, useful, and BPD mother was about all anyone could handle.

As a result, I got attention for being another emotional caretaker to BPD mother. It was more like being his coworker than spouse. There was no question that she #1- she was the main priority.

I think his relationship with me did make her angry for some reason, but I think it's more BPD reason as she also didn't like his relationship with his family or anyone else she thought he was connected to.

She didn't displace her anger. She projected it on to him too. She was verbally and emotionally abusive to him. The difference was when it came to her kids. Golden child was painted white, while I am the scapegoat child.

Mother was the persecutor. The error was in perceiving Dad as the victim. He was the enabler. If she was angry at me, he joined her and became her co-persecutor. As her enabler, he became the accomplice to her actions. However he would often blame her for his "punishing" me or saying no to me. If I wanted something he'd say "mother wouldn't let me" which now I know had to be BS- he earned the money! And these were not big requests, maybe a new dress or something. (he could have said yes) But he knew my mother would get angry if he agreed to it, so he said no.

I think where Dad became persecutor was in enabling this dynamic in the family.

[Couscous]

I think where Dad became persecutor was in enabling this dynamic in the family.

Which implies we should all be feeling the same level of anger towards our fathers as we feel toward our mothers. But I know that I am still not close to being fully in touch with my feelings of anger toward my father even though I saw his true colors for the first time 9 months ago.

But I did do something that feels incredibly disloyal a few days ago. I contacted my dad’s only sibling, a sister, who I was never close to, and who I haven’t seen or been in touch with for several years. We are going to chat this weekend and I think it will be an interesting experiment.

[Riv3rW0lf]

It might be that he is, they do say BPD and NPD attract each other?

In my case the dynamic is very different.. my BPD mother was jealous of my father and I relationship but the real reason behind her anger was that I am a daughter, and daughters never held any value for my grandfather. When he passed, my uncles inherited everything while my mother and aunts had nothing. They were all abused sexually by my grandfather's brother and he did nothing to protect them... She developped a very high shame of herself, if only because she is a woman and discharged her rage and shame onto me.

It is unclear for me who my grandmother is... I think she was very submissive, because again, a woman's opinion was not valued in our family...

My mother could have had children with anyone, there would have been issues, because my mother does not live in the present, she is constantly reliving her past. She simply doesn't see us and cannot see us. 

I am sorry to read your father triggers fear in you. My father triggers sadness and abandonment, but not fear. I was very angry at him for a while but never scared... I would definitely listen to your guts on that one. If you feel scared, your unconscious is telling you something. You might have forgotten but your body remembers.

However, the fact your father might be a narcissist does not mean your mother was a victim. They might both have sociopathic tendencies and be generally unsafe...

[Couscous]

However, the fact your father might be a narcissist does not mean your mother was a victim. They might both have sociopathic tendencies and be generally unsafe...

Oh yeah, I definitely do not view my mother as a victim. The dynamic between them has always been my father in the role of controlling parent, and my mother as the needy, helpless child, and she was not abusive of him. I now have come to realize that he was verbally and financially abusive of her. But she sure got her revenge on him when she illegally left the country with us as kids after my dad left her… And in spite of all of this they are both still enmeshed to this day, or probably it’s more accurate to say that they are still trauma bonded.

[Turkish]

I read Silently Seduced 6 or 7 years ago and took a good, long, hard look in the proverbial mirror. Was I going to screw up my kid for my emotional needs?

Their mom left when D was 1 and S had just turned 4. D preferred me more, I think, because her mom was being neglectful (absent).  Her mom knew it, but not why. To this day, I still get challenged from time to time, her perception being that I prefer D10 over S12. Until mommy's perception switches the other way  and i get feedback about that

This is one of the very few times that I'm reminded that I'm one of the few males here that regularly posts, so I hope I'm not disturbing the conversation. You all have great insight.

I think Daddy's Girl has kind of a negative connotation, perhaps not as much as Momma's Boy, but still. I did some searching and DG has maybe 90% negative articles in reference. Here's one that is balanced towards the positive, but not entirely. No mention of a dysfunctional mother. The author has good perspective:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soloish/wp/2018/01/22/i-grew-up-as-a-daddys-girl-and-that-confuses-the-men-i-date/

I asked D10 if she thought she was a Daddy's Girl. She replied maybe, kind of. Then she and S12 from the backseat of the car said that Daddy's Girls, from their points-of-view, were spoiled. I asked S12 if he was a Mommy's Boy. He said no. I don't think he is either.

Based upon your stories here, part of me is glad that their mom left, as I wouldn't want to be cast into making dysfunctional choices. Nine years ago, I kind of chose the kids, a baby and a recently graduated toddler, which maybe was also wrong as I couldn't find balance between that and a mother acting out like a desperate teenager (I partly triggered it, not innocent).

Part of me is also on self-watch. A year ago, then D9 and her mom had major conflicts. That's gotten better, but she's almost a tween, and can be difficult. What will be my role not to dysfunctionalally triangulate, partly based upon my lingering dislike of her mom? "That's OK, I'm here for you!" And the like.

[Notwendy]

Reading this thread, I realized I wasn't a Daddy's girl. I think it was more of a one way feeling for me. These are girls who Dad treats as his special girl. This didn't happen. All attention was on BPD mother.

Dad was a parent though, the only parent who acted like a parent to us and so to me, he was my only parent and I felt close to him. But I think it was relative. I felt closer to him than I do to my mother because we didn't really have a bond.

I think what was different began when I was a young teen. I recall a time when we were at the dinner table and I was telling Dad about what I did in school that day- and Dad connected with that- it was a common interest. BPD mom started to act all silly and cute- I think she noticed that Dad was paying attention to me- but it wasn't being "spousal" but more about each of us discussing a subject in school.

It looks more like his relationship with me was contingent on me appeasing my mother. On the other hand, he did take the role of parent and provider and had a positive influence on me so he must have cared in some way, but I think he was so co-dependent on my mother that this took precedence.

[Riv3rW0lf]

This is one of the very few times that I'm reminded that I'm one of the few males here that regularly posts, so I hope I'm not disturbing the conversation. You all have great insight.

I appreciate your insight on this board and having one male around to give us more perspective on fathers. I think men who are actively dating BPD women carry some kind of trauma that they haven't contacted yet... I am always amazed that there are not more men on the PSI board.

I think Daddy's Girl has kind of a negative connotation, perhaps not as much as Momma's Boy, but still. I did some searching and DG has maybe 90% negative articles in reference. Here's one that is balanced towards the positive, but not entirely. No mention of a dysfunctional mother. The author has good perspective:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soloish/wp/2018/01/22/i-grew-up-as-a-daddys-girl-and-that-confuses-the-men-i-date/

The article was interesting, thank you for sharing. I recognize myself in what she wrote. I just recently realized my highly perfectionist tendencies were not caused by my mother's neglect and trauma, but by my father's and the way he interacted with me. What I wasn't sure is how. The only thing I know, is that when I am around him, I feel I need to be perfect somehow.

It hit me when my sister visited while I was there, how he spoke with her. And somehow I don't think he spoke this way with me... I remember a discussion where he told me I had always been his favorite, and I remember feeling shocked that he could say this to me, I got the unfairness of it. But I can't say that I was surprised by this. I am the only one he actually fought to keep with him for part-time custody... And I kind of feel he didn't really care if my brother was with us or not, as long as I was. Wow it is like I have another part of me to discover now...

All of this "new" dynamic could explain my high self-esteem (father's love) and low/absent self-love and self-compassion (mother's love).

I asked D10 if she thought she was a Daddy's Girl. She replied maybe, kind of. Then she and S12 from the backseat of the car said that Daddy's Girls, from their points-of-view, were spoiled. I asked S12 if he was a Mommy's Boy. He said no. I don't think he is either.

I would not have described myself as a daddy's girl either. But writing all this, I can see I clearly was... I actually really like the article you posted because I agree that this was not a negative for me though. Because my father is not abusive and he always encouraged the best in us, independence, and acted as a safety net.

I also always preferred the company of men and can get along easily with a table of men. It took me a while though to realize that while I viewed their company as appropriate and "genderless", with no flirting, they always viewed me as a woman and a "possibility" and it lead to flirtation I didn't want and some bad situations. Now, while I still prefer the company of men, I consciously decide to only keep women as friends, which have actually been very healing to me. I never could trust women. Now I can.

Emotionally, with my father, I realize the relationship was great as long as I was the independent, high achiever and self-controlled child he wanted me to be. But he also provided room for mistakes, and never closed the door on me, even after I told him I hated him. There was always a possibility to repair the relationship with him. I don't think he closed the door on any of his children, what I think is that in the end, I am the only one of his children that chose him. My brother chose my mother, and my step-sister chose her mother. I chose my father.

What is terrible in all this is that : we had to choose between our parents in the first place, which seems to be at the very core of who I am, more so than my mother's emotional dysregulations.

Based upon your stories here, part of me is glad that their mom left, as I wouldn't want to be cast into making dysfunctional choices. Nine years ago, I kind of chose the kids, a baby and a recently graduated toddler, which maybe was also wrong as I couldn't find balance between that and a mother acting out like a desperate teenager (I partly triggered it, not innocent).

Part of me is also on self-watch. A year ago, then D9 and her mom had major conflicts. That's gotten better, but she's almost a tween, and can be difficult. What will be my role not to dysfunctionalally triangulate, partly based upon my lingering dislike of her mom? "That's OK, I'm here for you!" And the like.

I appreciate the advice of asking validating questions. And I don't think that you have to carry all the weight of the relationship on your shoulder... You children are getting older, their understanding of the world is becoming their own a little more each day and in the end: they share the decision of where the relationship will go and what it will bring them.

I chose my father. My brother chose his mother. My sister chose her mother.

In the end: the children make a choice too. You can only be your best self for them and then trust them to become their best self too.

[Notwendy]

Turkish- one difference is that you chose the well being of your kids. They may not see this now but I think it will be apparent to them later.

I think this is different from a "daddy's girl" arrangement. It appears the father is being attentive to the child's needs, but the relationship is meeting his needs.

Kids naturally want to have a relationship with a parent, even an abusive one. I think it's evolutional for kids to cling to their parents- for their survival. The parents are in control when children are young.

Once they are adults, I think the relationship transitions into a more mutual one. The kids don't' need parents for their material needs or survival. The relationship between adult children and parents requires the same kind of relationship skills as between any adults. Although I seems that "chose" my father, he also was the parent who was the most capable of having a relationship between two adults.

My mother having BPD impacts all her relationships. She was able to be in control as a parent- a lot through fear- we were afraid of her but this isn't how to have a good relationship with kids or anyone. It's not that I don't want to have a relationship with her, but that her emotional issues limit the relationship I could have.

Turkish, I think your investment in the children and your strong emotional capability to have a relationship with them are determinants of their relationship with you as they mature.

[Couscous]

Ugh..l think I also was the victim of emotional incest at the hands of my ‘nice guy’ smooth talker, step-father who played on my sympathies. Even though I was 21 at the time, because he was my step-FATHER it was absolutely inappropriate for him to show so much interest in me, and flirt with me, and I can only imagine what could have easily happened had he married my mother when I was much younger…

God, it’s all just so sickening!

[Notwendy]

Ewww. I am so sorry. Not being related to you, I can see where someone with poor boundaries could cross that line but eww.

One of the most infamous examples of creepiness is when Woody Allen was in a long term relationship with Mia Farrow and married her adopted daughter. I recall we were all creeped out by that.

[Riv3rW0lf]

You know what Couscous? I actually have to thank you for this thread, because you opened my eyes on something regarding my own relationship with my father. The first time I read your post, I felt reactive, defensive somehow, and I couldn't explain exactly why... And I think it is because in the end : my father was so much safer than my mother, that I feel like I have to protect this relationship somehow to stay sane. However... He had children with a pwBPD, and cumulated unhealthy relationships after unhealthy relationships, until he met his current wife 12 years ago. I know he worked a lot on himself, but seeing him, and seeing how he treats her... I can see he hasn't change much. I mean.. with the kind of relationships he seeked, he clearly was not safe to be around...

I don't think he is a narcissist, he doesn't exhibit any of the narcissistic rage, but he is definitely very self-centered with a small capacity for empathy. Our relationship has improved, but there is still an emotional disconnect, and I don't think I wish to reconnect emotionally with him.

What you said on the other thread truly opened my eyes on something : my father always acts like a victim too. And my mother first identification on the triangle is rescuer, hence their match of abuse. Even recently, he told me my BPD mother had told my brother she had breast cancer... And I hate to say it : but I heard some excitement in his voice, and I willingly chose to ignore it. Like he was somehow happy to be part of the drama? And I realize now, part of him enjoys the drama, and he tries to be the victim through it all...

"Riverwolf, Your  mother might have breast cancer; look how my relationship with your brother is on the downhill since then, give me empathy, I am sadden by what she does..." He just told me my own BPD mother, with whom I am estranged, has breast cancer, which any normal people could see I am likely the one requiring the empathy right now, it hit me like a train, not knowing what was true, what wasn't, how I felt... For the first time I answered honestly: "Look I hear your pain with my brother, but I cannot offer you anything right now. Put yourself in my shoes for a second... I have to process all this." And like nothing happened, he started talking about how good his travel to France was... because I wouldn't engage?

"Your sister is in a relationship with an abusive man, I suspect she got hit more than once, look how she treats me badly by not coming to see me anymore." And I somehow have to explain to him what it means FOR HER to be in this kind of relationship and that we should be there FOR HER...

It just hit me now again : his incapacity to provide any kind of empathy, whatsoever, when I was a suicidal teenager, heavily self-medicating with marijuana. To this day, he still tells me "how good I was doing in my teenage years while I lived with him"... When I was not good at all, stopped going to school toward the end, lost my best friend, lonely and completely abandoned. He was completely oblivious to it, and would come downstairs, in my room, to cry about his BPD girlfriend ! And I had to offer him compassion and a shoulder to cry on ! A 16 years old carrying a 46 years old, offering wisdom as best I could... Like I was his sister, or a dear friend, but not a teenager in need of guidance and protection.

I was a daddy's girl... He never disciplined me, ever. But I had to be perfect, or else... Always talking about my brother and his difficult relationship with him... Even our last fight, I said something that didn't please him, and he said something to the effect that he preferred my sister now... How crazy is that... It stung, but I immediately knew it was bullsh*t. He was never close to my sister at all. Although they are closer now, since she is the only one that will listen to his conspirationnists theories. I suspect she is looking for any way possible to connect with him...

I will need to uphold clear and healthy boundaries with him too. And lower my expectations, as to not have any, truly... He is not abusive, and overall, he did become better overtime, and he did work on himself, but I need to be cautious not to jump back in with eyes closed, because he still likes the drama created by my brother and younger sister right now... he wants to rescue... and then act the victim. He is in the freaking triangle too ! While I just want OUT.

I wonder what my stepmother finds in him... She is a psychologist, so maybe she also carries a bit of the helper/rescuer syndrome

Does anyone have their   together in this world?

[Turkish]

would come downstairs, in my room, to cry about his BPD girlfriend ! And I had to offer him compassion and a shoulder to cry on ! A 16 years old carrying a 46 years old, offering wisdom as best I could... Like I was his sister, or a dear friend, but not a teenager in need of guidance and protection.

 

[Riv3rW0lf]

I see what you did there  

I have literally no idea what regular/healthy teenagers are, nor what they need. I think I might read a few books before my children hit 10...  

First on my list might be Silently Seduced! Going back to therapy too.

[Turkish]

Riv3rW0lf,

I stopped short of using this:  

Now that D is about 10.5, I might reread that book as well.

One thing that I can never comprehend is talking to the kids as you father did to you. Maybe when they're 30? Even then, no. The most I share is complaining about the utility bills, stop running do much water and shut out the lights when you leave rooms! *grrrrr*

I did involve them in my idea to move to another state to take a job and do a long commute or split the custody year, but I thought it necessary. I didn't telegraph my emotions about it at all. Those I own, solamente!

More than a few years ago, my ex dropped them off and told the kids to "take care of daddy." I told her, in front of them, that taking care of me wasn't their job. She rolled her eyes and said,  "whatever!"

I'll give her some credit for realizing that she was likely a victim of covert incest from her mom and she's made a lot more progress on healing her r/s with her father.

It elicits a feeling of ickiness in my to even think about emotionally dumping on my kids.  

[Notwendy]

It was BPD mom who took me aside as a teen to discuss her relationship with my Dad and it was TMI.

Dad didn't do that. Sometimes though - I would ask for answers. That was none of my business as a teen- but then BPD mother made it my business by talking about it. At some point, I think kids will ask questions. More like "why is mom saying this" rather than wanting to know personal info. Dad would sometimes give some sort of brief response but not TMI. I can't imagine he wasn't cringing from the questions.

What's not right about that is that BPD mother did this in the first place. Thinking about that as a parent, I'd have seen that as very wrong. Maybe he said something about it to her. I don't know. Other than have us kids removed from the home, there wasn't a way to control what she said to us and that wasn't a good option.

It's not good for a teen to gives them a sense of empowerment by putting them on sort of equal footing when an adult discloses personal information to them- as a friend/confidant. It's too much for a kid that age. They need a parent to lean on while they sort out their own emotional stuff but it is not their job to be that for an adult.

[Couscous]

Regardless of what diagnosis our parent/s qualify for, the bottom line is that both parents are wounded Adult Children who feel entitled to have us meet their unmet childhood needs. Our families are upside down -- the kids are the resource and we are meant to be there for them instead of them being there for us. When we are unwilling to provide them with what they believe we owe them, they experience that as selfishness and then feel completely justified in either withdrawing in stony silence or lashing out.

A couple of days ago I emailed my father to explain to him in no uncertain terms that he no longer was my highest priority, and that my loyalty was to my "family of procreation". Not only was I not going to uproot myself and my family in order to take over his business, but I also was not going to feel guilty about it. He tried to get the last word in and sent a pouty reply where he made another attempt to guilt trip me as well as to gaslight me ("I have no idea where you got the idea that I wanted to take over the business... I gave up any hope of any of you kids taking over the business years ago..") but I just calmly repeated my message back to him. But I have this horrible sense of dread that he might decide to cut off his nose to spite his face by "failing" to sell the business and retiring just so that we will be burdened with having to rid ourselves of it after he dies, which exactly the kind of thing a wounded Adult Child would do...
 

 

[Riv3rW0lf]

It's not good for a teen to gives them a sense of empowerment by putting them on sort of equal footing when an adult discloses personal information to them- as a friend/confidant. It's too much for a kid that age. They need a parent to lean on while they sort out their own emotional stuff but it is not their job to be that for an adult.

Yep... I am very grateful to this board for opening my eyes about myself a bit more each day. I have so much to learn still... The more I dig, the more I realize I am not nearly deep enough... Just a never ending work, but then at least, this work provide some meaning to my life. And it does feel, over time, that it is making it a bit sweeter, despite all the hurt.

So I bought Silently Seduced, and hopefully will finally know how all of this impacted who I am today. Being a parent to my mother, managing her emotions as much I could to not suffer her outbursts, and being some kind of sister to my father.. And dare I say an emotional spouse whenever he didn't have anyone else? I have to if I am to be honest with myself, seeing how abandoned I felt every time he had a new girlfriend, how I suddenly didn't matter to him.

This is all so very wrong... And I realize that truly the only thing that changed is that I grew up, got married and decided to stand up by my husband...just got a flash of how, the first time he met my husband : my father didn't even acknowledge his presence... Didn't say hi, didn't talk to him. Hugged me and ignored him, and didn't even left me the chance to correct this terrible entrance before he turned away toward the house...

It didn't feel wrong at the time. It is weird to suddenly realize just how unhealthy my relationship with my father also was. The gift that keeps on giving ...  seems like I got daddy issues ! At this point, I am genuinely just amazed at my own capacity for denial.

Sorry Couscous, I hope you don't mind me sharing my experience on your board. I think seeing the world, our society, as traumatized children trapped in the bodies of adults remains accurate for me... The question I have now is : am I an adult? Or just another traumatized child trapped in a woman's body, unaware of the damage I am doing to my own children just by being imperfect. I guess I am sometimes the adult, and sometimes the child.

Juggling with my guilt, confusion and personal responsibility, I now see the value of embracing it all as God's plan, and just living following divine rules. It does feel less heavy to think we are perfectly imperfect and part of a greater mosaic that we just cannot comprehend. Otherwise, I just feel crushed by this need to be in control... There is a lot of wisdom to just... doing our best, and striving to be the best version of ourselves we can be... And in letting go.  

But then I don't think I will ever be able to be someone else, will I? Do you reckon this whole work, in the end, is just to learn about ourselves? To better take care of ourselves, of our needs and then of the needs of others? For a while, it seems I wanted to change who I am... But ultimately I don't think we can... It now feels the only thing I can do is discover myself... Because I have no idea who I truly am. Do you?

[Riv3rW0lf]

But I have this horrible sense of dread that he might decide to cut off his nose to spite his face by "failing" to sell the business and retiring just so that we will be burdened with having to rid ourselves of it after he dies, which exactly the kind of thing a wounded Adult Child would do...

Yep that might be... And I understand your dread.

My father had a heart attack last year, and one year later, he bought a lot of lands to start a new business in agriculture that he wants to pass down to us: to my brother, sister and I. I dreamt a little bit, of how everything would work out, then the truth about BPD mother hit and I now realize I truly do not wish to manage this business after he dies, I have projects of my own. I also do not wish to have to deal legally with my siblings. I don't know how my sister will be as she ages, we are ten years appart, but I know my brother is a mess completely enmeshed with my mother and I just don't want to manage any of it.. My brother and father are both proud to say I am the referee for all legal matters if something happens to them and none of them realize this is not a gift at all! I don't want any of this, I just want to do my own things peacefully.

And I am more and more convinced that I don't owe them anything other than what I want to offer. I already gave them too much. Like you, I believe my responsibility is toward my children, my husband, the family I chose and built.

But then, I will cross that bridge when I get to the river... Maybe by then my children themselves will want this business... Who knows... Better leave all windows and doors open... Whenever possible.

[WalkbyFaith]

Such a painful yet fascinating thread.
Okay, I'm bringing up another aspect of this "daddy issues" question:  how does it affect my relationships with men as an adult woman?

I was a Daddy's Girl growing up - as described above in my earlier post - he was the "safe" parent and the fun one, compared to my ubpd mother who had all sorts of physical/mental/emotional health issues. He was definitely her Enabler, always has been, but he was good to us.

But as a teenager/young adult I realized I had this NEED for attention from father figures. People like teachers or pastors or my friend's dad... I craved their attention and affection, not in a sexual way, just in a fatherly way. I remember being confused by this because I had a good relationship with my dad.

Now, as a happily married woman, I still find myself at times struggling with temptation toward other men, wanting them to be attracted to me, etc... I feel absolutely horrible about these thoughts because I love my husband!  but it seems that if there is any hint that a man might find me attractive, my mind latches onto that and I fantasize and crave the attention.

So I am starting to ask myself, does this have roots in my history? in my toxic family system? Is this a "daddy issue"?  My dad was there, though. He was present and loving and funny and he drove me to all my dance classes and was the stable one when my mom was wildly unpredictable. So it doesn't quite make sense to me. Is it really possible for such attachment issues to develop from a father who is present to his children while being enmeshed/enabler to an unhealthy wife?

So much of my childhood memories (like up until age 12-ish) are so shadowed and fuzzy though, there's much I don't remember in those years, so I'm wondering how much more there is to the story of my parents and how they related to me.

[Couscous]

Walkbyfaith,

The thing is that it takes unconditional love in order for a secure attachment to a parent to develop, and covert incest is the exact opposite of unconditional love.

I was attracted to father figures too — in my case it was in the form of older (like 15-20 years older) men. I also found it impossible to say no to the advances of any man that found me attractive.

I’m also realizing that I the breakdown in my relationship with my siblings is most likely due to the favoritism shown to me by my father. I heard from my SIL that my brother who I am now estranged from, told her that resented me because of this. 

I’ve just contacted a therapist who has taken Ken Adam’s enmeshment training in order to try to sort this stuff out. It’s been pretty unsettling to discover that apparently I’ve completely misunderstood the nature of the my relationship with my father, and essentially it was a lie.

[Turkish]

Walkbyfaith,

The thing is that it takes unconditional love in order for a secure attachment to a parent to develop, and covert incest is the exact opposite of unconditional love.

This is a great point. In case anyone hasn't read  article from the Tips pull down at the top of the site:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/was-part-your-childhood-deprived-emotional-incest

Many parents and children are close. Closeness is healthy and desirable. The difference between a healthy close relationship and an incestuous one is that in a healthy close relationship a parent takes care of a child's needs in an age-appropriate way without making the child feel responsible the emotional needs of the parents needs. In an emotionally incestuous relationship, instead of the parent meeting the needs of the child, the child is meeting the needs of the parent.

A lot of material here focuses upon the mother-daughter relationship, as well as most of the discussions.

It's good that you started this discussion, Couscous, to shine light on Fathers as well.

[Notwendy]

Now, as a happily married woman, I still find myself at times struggling with temptation toward other men, wanting them to be attracted to me, etc... I feel absolutely horrible about these thoughts because I love my husband!  but it seems that if there is any hint that a man might find me attractive, my mind latches onto that and I fantasize and crave the attention.

Walk by Faith- this is quite inciteful, especially the distinction between wanting this kind of attention and it being in a non sexual way. I don't think I experienced this quite in a similar way but something related to wanting attention from my father maybe? I didn't want other men to pay attention to me but I had a tendency to idolize a person but also remain committed to my marriage. I avoided any situation that might have resulted in a flirting situation- it's clear I didn't want that. It reminded me of these safe pre-teen "crushes" on a teen idol one would not ever meet in real life. I just assumed I had some unresolved teen age emotions due to being parentified as a teen.

But this can also be explained as wanting attention from a father figure. I idolized my father. He did pay some attention to me but he was also emotionally unavailable to me.

What's interesting is that all of this- any tendency to idolize - completely stopped after doing work on co-dependency. One aspect I worked on was people pleasing tendencies- that was how I got attention from my father- trying to please my mother. Trying to be some kind of "perfect" in order to be good enough? Once I discarded all those dysfunctional ideas, I stopped over-admiring other people. They are human too. Part of co-dependency work is examining what we learned as children and changing our behaviors. Once I learned it was OK to love myself and that I didn't need to have attention and love from anyone else in order to be "OK", I didn't look to anyone else to approve of me.

[Riv3rW0lf]

WalkByFaith, I also struggled with flirting, went as far as seducing one of my teachers when I was 18 years old, who was 15 years older than me.. however, when the seductions lead to overt sexual needs, I would feel incredible anxiety and pulled back from the relationships, resulting in severe guilt, and straining the relationships, which were often co-workers and friends. Writing this now, I can see this all stemed from my father.

I have started reading Silently Seduced and can see how narcissistic I was in my relationships with men, expecting them to fill my needs, to take care for me, to deal with my emotions and to help me resolve them, but without feeling completely comfortable with intimacy. At the same time, I felt deeply abandoned everytime a relationship would end, reliving all the times my father pushed me aside whenever he met a new girlfriend.

My stomach is turning, it is hard to admit to myself how sexually charged our relationship was. He set me up for the molestation that ensued with one of my stepfathers. My mother was likely reliving her own triangulation, continuing the competition, the jealousy toward me with her boyfriends. I remember things my father told me, how I had beautiful legs, how I was shaping up like a woman.. when he hugged me when I was pregnant with my daughter, I remember feeling deeply disgusted, contacted by husband right away to share my distress. My mother touching me resulted in the same distress.

My father called me a narcissist when I was about 20yo. My stepmother looked at him and said : "what? Not at all. I don't see narcissism in her at all." But I was more self-centered when it came to him, and men in general, to protect myself. I can see now how my father used me, and even separated from my mother, how he set me up against her by seducing me, which finally explain all the contempt and competition I feel toward her.

My mother is borderline, that reality remains true. And her rages toward me explains my anger, my rage but most especially my fear of her... Not the contempt. The contempt was his... I see this now. My need to please men, but how I pull back whenever the sexual tension forms overtly, it all makes sense now.

I was used by both my parents, like all of you here.

I have no idea how it is that my current relationship does not seem to fit that pattern though. I did, at some point, following a break up, realized everything was wrong and I learned I could say no to men, that I didn't have to fill their needs, that I could take care of myself... And I met my husband shortly after that realization, and we moved to live abroad for 6 years, away from my family system... The distance, and the way my husband is naturally, seemed to have played a huge part in my recovery... Even without having realized that all those issues stemed from my father and I relationship.

And Notwendy, I wholeheartedly agree with this : Once I learned it was OK to love myself and that I didn't need to have attention and love from anyone else in order to be "OK", I didn't look to anyone else to approve of me.

My main fear right now is to not discharge my own needs on my children,and reading you all this morning helped me very much : my focus if their needs, while I aim to take care of my own. But I realise protecting them will also mean keeping my husband and I on the same page, keeping us satisfied and honest with each other. Taking care of ourselves and of the other, keeping a strong and healthy mariage to protect our children from ourselves, in some way...

Most family I see are completely blind to their dysfunction... My main fear right now is being blind to ours... But my husband seems to think that knowing is key in not repeating. So thankful for this forum and to all of you doing this work !

[Notwendy]

Interesting that I meant to say "insightful" but spell check changed to "inciteful" and one could see this either way.

Riv3rW0lf- your husband sounds like a gem of a guy.

Yes, our fathers probably both loved us and used us, but in my case, it was the best of the two as BPD mother doesn't love anyone really and mainly sees me as useful to her.

I was able to work through some of this- how could my father not protect me- after he passed away. Not by choice though, as I was trying to understand how he could discard his relationship with me but I can't fully understand it as I'd not ever do this with a child of mine. For me the grief cycled between being despondently sad, feeling like an orphan, grief for the loss of the father, and anger at him for not valuing his relationship with me as much as I hoped for.

My main fear right now is to not discharge my own needs on my children, and reading you all this morning helped me very much :

This is my focus too. Another positive of working on co-dependency was that it would improve my relationship with my kids as well. You are correct- families see their dysfunction as "normal"- when we grow up with this, it's the only "normal" we know. Fortunately, I knew that my mother's behavior was not normal but I thought Dad was the "normal parent". There's a lot of work on my part to learn new behaviors, but it can be done. No parent is perfect- and surely I don't do it all perfectly, but I am doing things differently.

[Couscous]

Taking care of ourselves and of the other, keeping a strong and healthy mariage to protect our children from ourselves, in some way...

These are my thoughts exactly.

I have realized that up until now, my strategy for protecting my kids, as well as myself, has been by keeping at a bit of distance emotionally — but this is so not the solution. Clearly my inner child still has a LOT of healing to do.

My situation is complicated by the fact that my H is enmeshed with this mother, and I actually got Silently Seduced for him to read… But it does help for me to understand that it was my father set me up for this so that I don’t beat myself up for this. But thankfully my H is aware of the problem and is beginning to set boundaries with my MIL. Hopefully we will be able to heal together but is not going to be an easy road.

I have to say that all the drama and hysterics in my family has definitely served as a huge distraction from the elephant in my own living room — which is the enmeshment.

This video on breaking the cycle of enmeshed parenting really hit home for me, and was rather quite painful to watch: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X63Dkcbl2oE

[Couscous]

For me the grief cycled between being despondently sad, feeling like an orphan, grief for the loss of the father, and anger at him for not valuing his relationship with me as much as I hoped for.

It’s not that he didn’t value the relationship — it’s that it wasn’t his highest priority. His highest priority was protecting himself.

I have heard it said that fear is the opposite of love, and I think this is so true. When we operating from a place of fear and are in a self-protective mode, we cannot be loving at the same time. I have seen firsthand how this works in my own life. One of my biggest triggers is when my kids ignore me when I am trying to get them to do something. It is such massive fear response that I skip over anger (fight response) and go straight to overwhelm/shutdown (freeze response). When this happens, it’s as if all the love for my children drains away. Fortunately, I can now catch myself when this is happening so that I don’t respond the way my mother would have.

[Notwendy]

It’s not that he didn’t value the relationship — it’s that it wasn’t his highest priority. His highest priority was protecting himself.

Interesting because our primary feeling towards BPD mother has been fear. We can't feel love when in fear. I don't think she loves us either, and I think it's because her own BPD keeps her in victim/fear mode.

I think my Dad feared her too and perhaps his response came from fear of not going along with her when she was angry at me. And he had good reason to fear her, unfortunately as she was abusive to him- sadly, I think he experienced the worst of her behavior.

I understand he was in a tough spot, probably acting in some way to protect himself. What this probably was - was one of their anger cycle episodes. Some time later, they'd have called me up pretending it didn't happen, but for him, he passed away. BPD mother kept up the emotional abuse- usually we were expected to just tolerate it, but I was also grieving. On her part, she was probably oblivious to that, it was her usual state, but it was so much to sort out and deal with on my part. I don't hold on to resentment for her about it, it's not something I want to do, but all this led me to question the relationship with my parents- I don't think I can see it the same way I did before this happened.  I see how affected she is with BPD. I have empathy for her for what she's she's dealing with. I also see what my father was dealing with as well and I have empathy for his situation as well.

However, I know none of this had anything to do with me.

[Couscous]

The thing is that they both have the same fear — the fear of intimacy — which is fundamentally a fear of rejection. If you open your heart to someone you have be willing to risk getting hurt.

Drama triangle dynamics exist for the purpose of avoiding intimacy, and unfortunately our fathers are just as emotionally phobic as our mothers and possess as little capacity for emotional closeness as our mothers do, otherwise they wouldn’t have married our mothers in the first place.   

[WalkbyFaith]

This all makes so much sense and I think things are finally starting to come into focus a bit... starting to understand the dynamics better regarding my childhood relationship with my father as well as why I struggle with this attention/temptation issue today. It isn't all crystal-clear yet, but I'm making progress, I think...

It’s not that he didn’t value the relationship — it’s that it wasn’t his highest priority. His highest priority was protecting himself.

I can see how this is true of my father. My mother was verbally and emotionally abusive to my father as well, and our household was miserable if she wasn't happy. I have vague, foggy memories of her spiraling into these horrible episodes where she would yell & scream and then sink into a depressive state, sitting in her bed in the dark. She would shout our names (sister & I) from upstairs, one at a time, for us to come up and talk to her in her dark bedroom. I was only probably 8 or 9 and remember this being terrifying. Yet my dad made us do it -- go upstairs to face her, one at a time. I can vaguely remember wishing he would protect me and not make me do it. Why else would a loving father make his scared child do that, outside of his own self protection and/or enabling her victimhood?

So my dad, though I always thought we had a good relationship, I realize as an adult that he failed to stand up for me and protect me. He still fails to do that.

I don't know if I felt like I needed to be "perfect" for him or not. I don't remember that specifically.

[Couscous]

I think it is a very important step in our healing to acknowledge the truth about our fathers. And our inner child is going to want to resist knowing the truth because it has a false belief that if our fathers also didn’t love us, then this can only mean one thing — that we are unlovable. But this is a false belief, and one we must finally confront if we are ever going to be able to take responsibility for becoming our own loving parent.

I know that my T has been hinting at this from day 1 in therapy. It only took 16 months (plus my entire lifetime before then) for me to finally get it. 

[Notwendy]

I think it's true about the inability for emotional intimacy, but I think my father was capable of it at first. I think he genuinely fell in love with my  BPD mother who, as affected as she is, is able to be charming and hold it together when she needs to. Part was the culture of the time. The main expectation of women in her era was to find a husband, preferably one who made a good salary as women didn't work outside the home at the time. Also - people married quickly. She was very beautiful and charming and he was smitten. I don't believe my father had a clue at the time what was going on after that.

I recall a time when my father was emotionally available to us kids. I think over time though the continuous stress of my mother's severely disordered behavior whittled this down. I think his fears were not just about protecting himself. I think he also feared what she would do if she was upset because she had self harming behaviors and suicide attempts as well. I think he feared for her.

I also think this is why he would put her needs first. She is emotionally fragile and relies on him even for household tasks. I was a self sufficient teen and could support myself as an adult. I didn't need him to protect me or provide for me in the physical sense but emotionally I don't think we ever stop needing a father to be a father to us- not to do anything for me but to just show he cared about me. But there was only so much of his attention he could give- and it was all for her.

[Couscous]

I think it's true about the inability for emotional intimacy, but I think my father was capable of it at first.

I recall a time when my father was emotionally available to us kids. I think over time though the continuous stress of my mother's severely disordered behavior whittled this down.

Yes, I have heard that even people who grow up in healthy families can get hooked into abusive relationships. Is your father’s side of the family generally emotionally healthy?

[Notwendy]

Yes, they were loving and accepting and we are still close to that side of the family.

For my Dad, if there was trauma it was from his family being from a different country and culture and he got bullied for it as a kid from other kids. His family was of limited means but he was intelligent and was able to achieve the American dream at the time- a good education and a good job. BPD mother's family was better off financially. I think he assumed her spending was just part of that experience. His family was more frugal and down to earth.

[Notwendy]

This is why I think he didn't figure out something wasn't right until way after the marriage. He was intelligent but didn't grow up in the same social circle my mother was in. And nobody knew about BPD at the time- or spoke of any mental illness. A woman who didn't get married was out of place at the time and there's no way she would have managed if she wasn't. Likely even her parents didn't know why she behaved the way she did sometime.

I don't think he had any idea and was probably very puzzled at her behavior.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I don't think he had any idea and was probably very puzzled at her behavior.

I was discussing the other day with my husband about the US special forces training, how they desensitize them via small surprising triggers, different every time, to slow down their nervous reaction and allow them more control over their amygdala. It somehow reminded me of my mother, and how it seems that becoming enmeshed with a BPD is via the same kind of process, except the amygdala is hijacked. When I went back to my mother's house in November, her reactions seem to come in waves. At first manageable, until total emotional dysregulation. Took us about two weeks to get there, but I reckon it would take more time with a completely new relationship. We were just falling back into old shoes, so the process would be faster. I lost myself progressively. It wasn't : "Ho she is very weird, acting like that !" There was much more confusion.

All this to say: I could see how someone would first be puzzled, but because of the waves effect, they end up 'desensitized' to it, and it becomes the new normal. The confusion doesn't stay, they aren't puzzle anymore, they are just scared and in survival mode. Looking at my stepfather, he sees no dysfunction in my mother. He is mainly scared and within a very deep FOG. Fear was his main emotion. Scared when I put something in the dishwasher that didn't belong. Scared when I left a light opened in the laundry room. He tried to protect me by showing me the rules, which I discarded laughing, I didn't remember how she was. But then I remembered when my mother came back from work to those triggers. I can only imagine what their life is like when we are not around and I feel for him.

I don't know if I felt like I needed to be "perfect" for him or not. I don't remember that specifically.

I started thinking about my perfectionist tendencies a few weeks back, trying to find where they came from, when is it that I started identifying so strongly with my inner critic... I don't know if you can become a high perfectionist from a borderline trauma. Maybe but the source of the trauma, to me anyway, feel more, stress related and in line with emotional dysregulation (C-PTSD). I could be wrong though, but I felt, inside me, that my perfectionism is related to my father, without knowing why exactly. Are you a perfectionist, to the point of dysfunction I mean? That could be an indication. The other thing that struck me was when Couscous relayed the quote about feeling contempt for mothers... It is true that contempt wouldn't be a natural reaction to the crisis, which are directly linked to my fear and rage toward her... Yet, I feel true contempt for her, and I know I always tried to be better... now I realize it was all to please him.

I think it is a very important step in our healing to acknowledge the truth about our fathers. And our inner child is going to want to resist knowing the truth because it has a false belief that if our fathers also didn’t love us, then this can only mean one thing — that we are unlovable. But this is a false belief, and one we must finally confront if we are ever going to be able to take responsibility for becoming our own loving parent.

I know that my T has been hinting at this from day 1 in therapy. It only took 16 months (plus my entire lifetime before then) for me to finally get it.  

You have a good T!

My husband told me a few times that my father was "a weird guy", that he certainly never met anyone like him before, that he couldn't see himself ever abandoning our daughter for a girlfriend, like my father did to me. Those were all fair and strong indicatives that something was wrong in the relationship. However: I was deep in denial until your thread ! So thank you, Couscous.

I think after mourning and grieving my mother, it was just too much to bear to see my father for who he is. I've had many issues with him, went no contact a couple times, held onto rage, but I wanted to believe I had move past all of it. And I think I did, because I emotionally disconnected from him at some point. Coming back to my home province, it's like I am looking to reconnect with him, but THANKFULLY, this thread appeared first (talk about strange synchronicity). I am much safer emotionally disconnected from him, than enmeshed.

Now though, that I know what happened and how he treated me, I can maybe finally heal its impact on me... I realized yesterday reading the book that I am a love addict. Like a punch in my stomach, who I am was written there, through the story of the corporate business woman. I didn't have any affairs outside my marriage...  yet. I think this would have all been a real possibility over time though. I can't seem to let go of an old flame, and I mentioned it to my therapist, how I thought about this specific guy. He picked up on it, but I moved the conversation elsewhere right away... Now I see why. This whole pattern is the root of my addiction. Always dreaming of someone else, of something else, of real connection, yet unable to connect to the person I am closest to. There is always an ambivalence in my commitment. I've even written on here about how I wasn't married to who I wanted. Yet I looked deeply at my husband the last couple days and he is nothing short of amazing. He helps around the house, he supports me, he is curious, he opens up my world, he trust me, pushes me forward, he loves his children, he respects me. I mean... How could I ever even doubt him?

I just identified this pattern : no relationship is ever enough, and then I look elsewhere, in my fantasies at first, in old flames, sometimes going as far as contacting them (!), but where will I look next? I've ended up doing it to every men I've been with... Really struck me hard... And I am scared, but also deeply grateful that I can finally see one of the patterns that has been controlling me life up until now. And I vow to myself to control this addiction before I hurt the one man that has been there for me none stop for the past 6 years. I might have to join a 12-steps, but not for the trauma I thought was the worst I've had when I joined here. So... C-PTSD, perfectionism and love addiction : what an interesting combo to heal... Goodness. I am glad I know at least... and ashamed, but hey ! I am sharing my realization here in the hope it might help someone else see themselves. Denial was a real b*tch to beat.

And I just wanted to add that what made it all very hard to see, for me, is also because the way I acted was so normalized in today's society, and I thought I was just "having fun" when I was single and dating around. Yet I would cry myself to sleep and feel deep shame, but never put two and two together somehow.

[Notwendy]

 Riv3rW0lf- that was very insightful. I think the fantasy on old flames is a trauma reaction. It's good that you recognize it and don't want to let this keep you from connection to your H, who sounds like a wonderful man.

What fantasizing or daydreaming about something else, someone else, could be is a form of dissociation when someone is being abused. It's a coping mechanism. If you ever saw the film "Precious" ( it might be triggering) where this poor girl was sexually abused, they show her doing this in the film- dissociating as a way to cope with what was happening to her.

Teachers often commented about me day dreaming in class. Some of my friends described me as "spacy".  There are events in my childhood that I can not remember. If someone is angry at me I still can do this and it's a fear response. Likely my father did this too.

I think it's good you recognize this and won't act on it. But also don't beat yourself up for it. We can't really control what we think about but we can control what we do about it and not act on it. I think our actions define our ethics. Maybe you wish you had more money but you don't rob a bank. Maybe you think about an old flame but you leave it at that. You don't become a thief until you rob that bank and not contacting old flames protects your marriage.

I recognize the fantasy "someone out there loves me in the way I want to be loved". Marriage is complicated and doesn't ever live up to a fantasy person because we are all not perfect. When you start thinking about an old flame, you know he isn't perfect either. It's an escape from uncomfortable feelings. All addictions are that. Now that you see it, you know what to work on.

[Notwendy]

I also think the fantasizing is a defense mechanism, perhaps due to having been let down by the people we have trusted the most- parents. Fantasizing keeps us from getting too attached, because if we got attached and they let us down, it would be just too much.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I also think the fantasizing is a defense mechanism, perhaps due to having been let down by the people we have trusted the most- parents. Fantasizing keeps us from getting too attached, because if we got attached and they let us down, it would be just too much.

I agree. However, for me, the attraction and pattern goes above fantasm. I have been in many relationships before I met my current husband, I guess you could say I was a "serial monogamist". However, I cheated on the first one, left the second one for the third, and emotionally cheated on the third with someone else. The only reason I didn't go all the way is that the guy was not in my city.

So... I have a pattern of checking out of my relationships emotionally and physically, especially when they don't "meet my needs". The problems though is that : I didn't know my needs back then, and still find it hard to care for my own needs, as I tend to care for others all the time. I also have high, and unhealthy expectations of others, which I now know and have worked on for the past few years, especially for my husband.

So... For me, I think it truly is an addiction for love. And it seems from my father abandoning me when I hit teenagehood. I now realize the relationship prior to it was sexually charged as well, so I do think I acted it out by becoming very "seductive"... All of this was unconscious up until now.

Since getting married however, I do feel I put up a wall between my mariage and other men, which truly helped me stay focused on my mariage. But sometimes, some fantasms seems to peek in, and I am too aware of how dangerous it is for my relationship today. I wouldn't act on it, but I realize now I also will have to manage myself.

[Notwendy]

I can see why you were seeking love through these sexual relationships. This is common for people subjected to sexual abuse growing up. Each one could not meet your needs probably because you had to ignore your own needs growing up. Glad you are able to see this and work on it.

I think I went the opposite. I had crushes on guys but taking the step from crush to real person was somehow too much for me to face. I was afraid of a relationship with a real person. If I was in one, I was afraid to be myself. I was afraid to rock the boat and very afraid they'd get angry at me over something. They didn't get the real me. They got a people pleasing version of me. I see now how co-dependent that was, but it was all I knew to do. I wanted them to like me so I did what I thought I had to do to get approval from my parents and be the people pleaser too.

I did not have serial relationships. They were occasional with lots of time between where I was alone.  If I could cross that line to be with a real person, it wasn't something I would want to let go of. But I do recall some were emotionally unavailable and also didn't treat me the way I wished they would. None were physically abusive thankfully.

But I think you and I went to opposite ends of a similar problem. Wanting to be close to someone and being afraid of it at the same time. Each dysfunctional in its own way. 

[Riv3rW0lf]

I think I went the opposite. I had crushes on guys but taking the step from crush to real person was somehow too much for me to face. I was afraid of a relationship with a real person. If I was in one, I was afraid to be myself. I was afraid to rock the boat and very afraid they'd get angry at me over something. They didn't get the real me. They got a people pleasing version of me. I see now how co-dependent that was, but it was all I knew to do. I wanted them to like me so I did what I thought I had to do to get approval from my parents and be the people pleaser too.

It is strange, but reading this, the face of my stepmother came up... She never talks much about herself, I am actually starting to ask more and more questions about her. And she told me recently she is basically unable to ignore others in a room...  One example is when she plays piano. She knows I like minor, and she prefers major. Yet, I am there, she will keep herself from playing any songs in major.. which is strange because 1) I never asked her to do this, and 2) I prefer minor but do enjoy change and variation. And last time she looked at me and she said: ain't it funny how I cannot seem to play what I truly want to play, just because I know what your preferences are.

She also told me, for her, her inner life was a sum of what everyone else felt, and she has a really hard time separate herself from the other person. Is it how you feel? I thought that always feeling what every else was feeling would ergo make her a people please... which she was for a long time. Interestingly enough, she became a therapist.

Anyhow... she told me what helps a lot for her, is to acknowledge the other person is sad/happy/angry, and then she would ask herself how SHE felt seeing the other person sad/happy/angry... just to separate herself from the other and regain her own sense of self. Going from empathy to sympathy and compassion, in a way...

Comparatively, my struggle is to identify my own emotions. If I feel an emotion, I will question myself as to who's that emotion to... even when I am alone. Like my emotions are a different entity than me, and I have a really hard them understanding what they mean.

I did not have serial relationships. They were occasional with lots of time between where I was alone.  If I could cross that line to be with a real person, it wasn't something I would want to let go of. But I do recall some were emotionally unavailable and also didn't treat me the way I wished they would. None were physically abusive thankfully.

But I think you and I went to opposite ends of a similar problem. Wanting to be close to someone and being afraid of it at the same time. Each dysfunctional in its own way.  

In the end, it does all seem to boil down to the same thing : a deep fear of intimacy, which really should be physical, emotional and rational. It is as if, by missing the emotional level, we have to compensate on the other fronts, resulting in the dysfunction.

[Notwendy]

I struggled with not knowing my own feelings or even who I was or wanted. I used to wonder why I wasn't like other girls, so comfortable socially. I put on a good front, even appeared to be "popular" but didn't feel secure in it. I knew I was straight but somehow felt I wasn't as pretty, or as likable, or lovable as other girls. It had nothing to do with my outward appearance. Guys were attracted to me but I was mostly afraid to reciprocate. Eventually I outgrew this some but if we don't know who we are, it's hard to be authentic in relationships.

I tend to isolate which I know is a protective mechanism. But working on co-dependency has helped a lot with feeling my feelings and knowing who I am. The thing is- people will let us down, as nobody is going to be that perfect person who can meet all your needs. We have to accept that we don't have to be perfect people all the time, and maybe we can expect our friends and spouses to be pretty good people but not be perfect either.

[ZeroSumGames]

I struggled with not knowing my own feelings or even who I was or wanted. I used to wonder why I wasn't like other girls, so comfortable socially. I put on a good front, even appeared to be "popular" but didn't feel secure in it. I knew I was straight but somehow felt I wasn't as pretty, or as likable, or lovable as other girls. It had nothing to do with my outward appearance. Guys were attracted to me but I was mostly afraid to reciprocate. Eventually I outgrew this some but if we don't know who we are, it's hard to be authentic in relationships.

I tend to isolate which I know is a protective mechanism. But working on co-dependency has helped a lot with feeling my feelings and knowing who I am. The thing is- people will let us down, as nobody is going to be that perfect person who can meet all your needs. We have to accept that we don't have to be perfect people all the time, and maybe we can expect our friends and spouses to be pretty good people but not be perfect either.

First, thank you all for your posts on this thread.  I have learned so much on this board and from conversations between Notwendy, Riv3erwolf, Couscous and WalkbyFaith.  I married and divorced a uBPD and have two children with her.  It took trying to fix an unfixable relationship, and years of therapy to understand what in the world was going on with me.  My biggest aha moment of clarity was when I realized that I, unconsciously, was teaching my kids not to trigger their mom.  We were all working in concert not to anger her, and I realized I didn't want to raise them that way any longer.  Fear drove alot of that cycle for me and I still see fear driving the kids.  Unfortunately that is co-dependent behavior.  I was raised by parents that emotionally manipulated and I missed red flag behaviors.  My parents were both codependent on each other, and I learned that as my baseline of a relationship.  At times it confused me as a child. 

In reflection, they both looked outward for validation that they were lovable, but didn't understand they should love and care for themselves.  They didn't know to love themselves or teach self love/care to their children.  It seems that this codependent view of self is a magnetic match for a BPD/NPD person who looks outward for self worth.  Both looking outward to feel loved, and neither feeling safe to be loved.  Both safely unavailable to each other. 

Your fathers were likely wounded people too and were passing on their trauma to you.  It isn't fair and I wish it didn't happen to you.  You have/had one parent with a personality disorder, otherwise you wouldn't be here, and your other parent may have been safer, but was emotionally immature and both parents had poor boundaries. 

[Notwendy]

ZeroSumGame- thanks for your post and also, I think your decision to protect your children is admirable. While I know that my father's expectations of us to be co-dependent on my BPD mother wasn't fair, I also recognize that he provided for us and kept stability at enormous expense to himself- whether it was for him or her, or us, and probably all of it. It wasn't fair to him either.

The shift from seeing him as the victim of her behavior to recognizing his co-dependency included people pointing out that I had co-dependent behavior as well. I didn't see this as this was the "normal" I grew up with but I wanted to work on my own behaviors and understood them better.

One of my main motivations was to not pass this on to my kids by working on my own behaviors. These patterns are intergenerational- unless we decide to change them. They may not even be conscious behaviors- if a child grows up with them in their family, it's the "normal" they know. There isn't a reason to change unless the behaviors cause them issues as adults.

I don't know the origin of either of my parents' dysfunction or trauma. Families didn't discuss these things in their day and little was known about them. People tend to choose partners that match them in some way. I think, and hope, we are making a difference for our children by changing the family patterns.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Your fathers were likely wounded people too and were passing on their trauma to you.  It isn't fair and I wish it didn't happen to you.  You have/had one parent with a personality disorder, otherwise you wouldn't be here, and your other parent may have been safer, but was emotionally immature and both parents had poor boundaries.  

Yes indeed. I am starting to realize that my father actually has strong narcissistic tendencies, he is not codependent... I feel like a co-dependent parent would have been a bit safer (but maybe not, ) !

For my father, I felt recently that he is quite glad that I cut contact with my mother, he offered no empathy, just : "ho yeah she is very toxic !" Without any kind of : "how do you feel about it though? how are you doing?" And when we saw each other, it was all about him... Even after I opened up about one of my stepfather molesting me as a child, my own father replied with : "you know it happened to me sister..." I focused on the fact he did not invalidate my story and he confirmed the signs, it felt like he knew, there was no surprise... But I don't remember him showing real empathy or remorse... He said something to the effect that if he could, he would do things differently, that this was all a process. Fair enough. But it is weird that he wouldn't... react more? or offer more support? I didn't blame him, I am past blaming others right now... But I see that he is somewhat emotionally immature too, yes. He also always held great contempt for my mother, and didn't hide it, so he didn't teach me to be empathetic toward her... But he did request a lot of empathy from me toward him though.

A lot of memories have resurfaced, that I processed back when I was deeply angry at him, shortly after moving away. How he would :
- Take my bed because one of his girlfriends didn't like the one he has, resulting in me having to sleep on the floor for more than two weeks until they got their new bed
- Stop talking to me whenever I disagreed with him, or tried to stand up to him
- Had to battle him to get money for the dentist, when I was legally still dependent on him (he wouldn't add me on his insurances), and this, despite him being well established and comfortable with money
- Had to defend myself upon learning he declared I was living in one of his houses to save on taxes (this wasn't true and resulted in me losing money and help from the government while I was in university). He guiltripped me because I had made my taxes myself for the first time... He couldn't use me this way. And this is when I was basically covering all me expenses myself, he didn't give me anything.  
- Tell me all about this problems with his girlfriends, with my brother, with my sister, with everyone, and would leave the door whenever I felt myself emotionally dysregulated, offering no support

Today, he is married to a woman who is amazing, but who I see now is highly codependent... Even recently, he told, in front of many people, that he was leaving the next day with my sister to visit my brother in another city, and she didn't even know. She looked at him and said : "really? couldn't you at least tell me? "To which he didn't even answered... It is always all about him, truly... And I can see she is slowly building resentment, but she won't ask anything of him.  And he told me, behind her back, that she was disorganized and couldn't do anything. I was appalled, how he would belittle her like that.

As for the sexually charged relationship, I see now this was a by-product of his narcissism. Whenever he didn't have a girlfriend, he expected me to be his surrogate girlfriend in everything but sex, and would discard me whenever he found someone else, resulting in a deep feeling of abandonment on my end, and me feeling jealous and competitive of his girlfriends. Very unhealthy.

I held deep rage toward my father for a long time, and for my mother... My mother was neglectful and dysregulated, resulting in us tiptoeing around her, trying to keep her from the next outbursts, while my father used me. None of them cared who I was and what I needed. In truth, I had to find my own way around both my parents. No one asked me to act a certain way, they both hated each other and made me the messenger between them. They just manipulated me to match their needs and ignored who I was. I didn't matter, except to please them. I ended up enmeshed with them on and off... On with dad would mean off with mom, and on with mom would mean off with dad... In the end, maybe all this hate saved me, made it easier to disconnect completely from both of them.

My relationship with my father improved when I stopped mixing money in it, and when I stopped having any kind of expectations toward him. Recently, I asked him for help toward a business matter, and he still hasn't come back to me about it, and I now know he won't... And I won't ask. The closer I am to him, the less he will do for me, so I will manage by myself and remain distant. I will still see him, and he is safe enough to have a relationship with my kids (he doesn't care much about them), but I will not ever listen to him again though.  He is not malignant, he is just highly self-centered. As long as I uphold clear, strong boundaries, it should be fine. I can manage him more easily than I can manage my mother, who triggers my C-PTSD.

Ho well... and Yes Notwendy ! Working my best to break that cycle here as well ! My daughter started school this morning... I cried. But hey, seeing her jump in the bus, at 4yo, happy and proud, with no fear at all, completely comfortable in the world... Just after crying in my arms, discussing her mixed emotions, and me validating them all, telling her it was all normal, that it is a big change, but that I would always be here and she would be fine and have fun... I am doing it ! With LOTS of self-doubts and anxiety, but my children seem fine so far. I am learning about my own emotions with them.

In the end : we are all here to do our best. No one if perfect... And maybe life would be boring without a bit of trauma to work on 

[lm1109]

But this can also be explained as wanting attention from a father figure. I idolized my father. He did pay some attention to me but he was also emotionally unavailable to me.

What's interesting is that all of this- any tendency to idolize - completely stopped after doing work on co-dependency. One aspect I worked on was people pleasing tendencies- that was how I got attention from my father- trying to please my mother. Trying to be some kind of "perfect" in order to be good enough? Once I discarded all those dysfunctional ideas, I stopped over-admiring other people. They are human too. Part of co-dependency work is examining what we learned as children and changing our behaviors. Once I learned it was OK to love myself and that I didn't need to have attention and love from anyone else in order to be "OK", I didn't look to anyone else to approve of me.

This resonates very deeply... I am working on this...

This thread is very eye opening! My inner child work has inevitably led to some really painful and disheartening truths about my father as well. I also admired my Dad, mostly because he wasn't outwardly mean to me the way my Mom and Brother(as a kid) often were, however, he never protected me from any abuse...ever...period. I've come to realize that my idolization of my Dad was me latching onto a few good memories. Sadly, some of my happiest memories as a child were from the year and a half that my parents separated. My Dad moved out. My brother and I would go to his one bedroom apartment and have the best time. There was no yelling, fighting, or walking on eggshells...it was a reprieve from my Mom but it was also forced interaction from my Dad...he was forced to spend time with us. Little me was beyond thrilled to watch old TV movie reruns, eat gas station hot dogs for dinner, and just be...in an environment that wasn't volatile. It was a time in my life that my Dad was forced to notice me. The second that my Dad moved back into our home...it all went back to normal. He went back into hiding and escaping from his sick wife and kids who were being abused. I now believe that my brother and I were intentionally "sacrificed", so to speak, by him. He encouraged my Mom in being angry at us and encouraged my brother and I to shut up and "take our turn" being painted black so that he could get a break.  I realize now that the things that I "idolized" him for were mostly just him giving me breadcrumbs of love to keep me compliant in the sick family dynamics.

After reading this thread I asked myself some questions. There was never anything that felt sexually charged coming directly from my Dad...however...my Mom treated me like a jealous girlfriend any time my Dad showed me ANY attention. It's as if we were not ALLOWED to even like each other...let alone love each other. My Mom emasculated my Dad constantly and encouraged my brother and I to do the same...we were not allowed to respect him. I suppose this is a layer of triangulation, but looking at it now...it did feel sexually charged...as if every time my Dad ACTED like a Dad towards me...my Mom felt that I was some sort of threat...to her "man!"

[Couscous]

Something that has been extremely eye-opening for me was hearing my (much younger) half-sister’s experience of being raised by my father. She said he was extremely controlling, which is not all how he was when I was a child, and this makes me realize that his seemingly loving and engaged parenting style with his first brood, me and my siblings, had just been an act in order for him to win the competition for “favorite parent”.  

And when I started noticing how little interest he actually has for my kids and how he really doesn’t engage much with them, and seems to mainly want my attention when we visit, it further re-enforced this suspicion.

I think our parents probably did love us unconditionally when we were babies. But once we got old enough to start triggering whatever childhood wounds they had, it was Game Over, and the dysfunctional family dynamics were activated.

I hope I will be able to “re-negotiate” my relationship with my father, but I am not going to be holding my breath. Our pattern is that distances himself when he feels “hurt” and then I pursue him, but I will no longer be doing this. I imagine our relationship is going to be very distant in future. But this might actually force him to look to his wife to meet his intimacy needs — a shocking notion indeed…

 

[lm1109]

I just realized that the second part of my post got cut off and didn't post

To summarize...I feel like the abuse I endured by my Mom was sexually charged...she was hyper focused on my body, made comments about it constantly (in front of my brother and Dad), TMI about sex, and did some very abusive things to me when she felt like I was getting ANY attention from ANY male...including my Dad...which is SO very twisted! She treated me like a jealous big sister rather than a Mom...but also made me feel like I was HER mom!

I wondered if the book is still worth a read if the emotional incest was from the same sex parent rather than a father? This thread was really eye opening to me...this is a layer to her abuse that I never really examined before now!

[Riv3rW0lf]

I think our parents probably did love us unconditionally when we were babies. But once we got old enough to start triggering whatever childhood wounds they had, it was Game Over, and the dysfunctional family dynamics were activated.

That's also what I think. As long as my mother isn't triggered, she can seem normal and loving... But she gets triggered a lot and her episodes last a very long time... and the more history to the relationship, the faster she gets triggered, twisting everything around.

I got triggered this morning... when I picked up my daughter at school. She had so much fun, she didn't want to leave ! And like a 4yo does, she just stood there, partly ignoring me, then saying "No I don't want to go with you and brother ! I want to stay here and ride in the bus !" And... as a healthy, rationale adult, I get it. So I answered : " Ok, yes I understand, you wanted to ride in the bus, but no worries, you will ride in the bus tomorrow ! You will come back here tomorrow ! But now we have to go home because the day is over." All the while managing the rejection and the trigger of my abandonment by my parents. and the shame of being rejected by my daughter, even though it isn't rejection. Just a four year old expressing grief. I thought I managed it well...

Then in the car, I got so, so angry. And I didn't want to release it on her, trying to manage my emotions. She wouldn't stop arguing and I was like : Ok I get it... But then I snapped: "Ok I just don't want to hear another word from you right now !" And I think I might have guiltripped her in not welcoming me, despite going to the playground afterward, that she left without me, that she was disrespectful, that it wasn't a proper welcome... And it all makes sense, but the anger was too much for a four years old, and I don't even know if we even should tell them that... When are we educating VS berating? I sometimes have NO IDEA. This morning though, I was berating, and the guilt on top of it. Goodness, hated every second of this ride home.

I managed to get it back together, only to unleash it again on my husband later on ! I had to say sorry to him as well... Goodness, I KNOW I didn't lose it as much as my mother used too, and I got it back together fast enough... but still... Parenting truly is the hardest. I am however very grateful that I can SEE myself and at least manage myself better. And I know I am improving my self-control everyday... I see many people around me who's eyes are completely shut to their own behaviors... But somehow, it makes it still hard to notice each and every single time I messed up, was too angry, said too much, didn't say enough... Sometimes I wonder if all of this fine tuning all the time is maybe unhealthy in and of itself. A defense mecanism I developped as a child, micro managing myself all the time, not allowing myself to be imperfect too... Anyway... A story for another thread maybe.

Someone on here once said parenting is a zero-sum game. I think it was Methuen. I repeat that to myself every time those kind of things happen...

So anyway... All this to say : yes and it is scary to realize, when those things happen, that I have all this power and this abuse trapped inside me, to control every time to not repeat. I really contacted it today. How incredibly hard it can be sometimes to fight the urge to unleash this stress on someone else, to assume it all. Some of it always seem to spill around me... But I guess that only makes me human..

It helped to write this. I felt sh*tty.  

I wondered if the book is still worth a read if the emotional incest was from the same sex parent rather than a father? This thread was really eye opening to me...this is a layer to her abuse that I never really examined before now!

I think so. If your mother saw your relationship with your father as incestuous, then this kind of bias could have spilled over onto you as well, even if your father didn't pay much attention to you. You might not remember everything as well. Also, there is a section about being the mother's friend and confident. I think, like anything, if you don't recognize yourself in this, the tools can likely still be useful, as it gives a lot of tools to manage codependent behaviors, which I think all of us kinda developped with a BPD mother...

I also think that just witnessing such unhealthy relationship between parents might even result in feeling more mature than we were and thinking we could be better spouse, mother, even if a relationship wasn't sexually charged. For me, I am pretty sure my father didn't desire me, he just treated me as much more mature than I were and made me compete for love and attention against his many girlfriends, even at a very young age, resulting in an unhealthy dynamic. It is not that he wanted to be sexual with me, it's that he put me in a position where I didn't feel like his child, but like an equal. The absence of my mother in the house, and how he held contempt for her also created some kind of weird feeling of competition, that I was better than her.

In a healthy household, the parents aim to stand by each other side. They don't triangulate a kid against the other parent to fill their own intimacy need, to feel valued and understood. This is the spouse job. If I don't feel good with my husband, I talk about it WITH HIM, not with my child. Turkish can correct me if I am reading all this wrong but from the book, it seems any parent discussing those kind of marital issues with a kid is bringing what he calls sexual energy into the relationship, even if it is unconscious. Writing this though, I think every parent who forces a child that is not yet emotionally mature to carry the weight of the emotions of their parent is setting them up to act as victim of covert incest later on.

[ZeroSumGames]

I managed to get it back together, only to unleash it again on my husband later on ! I had to say sorry to him as well... Goodness, I KNOW I didn't lose it as much as my mother used too, and I got it back together fast enough... but still... Parenting truly is the hardest. I am however very grateful that I can SEE myself and at least manage myself better. And I know I am improving my self-control everyday... I see many people around me who's eyes are completely shut to their own behaviors... But somehow, it makes it still hard to notice each and every single time I messed up, was too angry, said too much, didn't say enough... Sometimes I wonder if all of this fine tuning all the time is maybe unhealthy in and of itself. A defense mecanism I developped as a child, micro managing myself all the time, not allowing myself to be imperfect too... Anyway... A story for another thread maybe.

It truely is the hardest.  It sounds like that was hard to experience.  It also sounds very human.  A big hug to you for doing your best, recognizing what else was going on, reflecting on it, and making amends to those around you. 

[Couscous]

Riverwolf, the first time my son ran off and didn’t say goodbye to me when I dropped him off at school because he was so excited I have to admit that my wounded inner child popped up, quickly followed by my inner critic who said: “See? He obviously hates you because you’ve failed at motherhood”.

Be kind to yourself — the first day of school is very hard for childhood trauma survivors. And I can almost guarantee you that your daughter was feeling a bit abandoned by you, and she most certainly was feeling disconnected, so she likely gave you the cold shoulder because of that.

Being the perfect mother is not how we break the cycle. We break the cycle when we make repairs with our kids after losing our sh*t. Our mothers never did that with us, and that was the part that was so damaging. Sending you a big hug.  

 

[WalkbyFaith]

dreaming of someone else, of something else, of real connection, yet unable to connect to the person I am closest to.

Riv3rwolf, this is similar to what I've realized about myself too, which I posted earlier on this thread. The tendency to feel attraction or fantasize...even though I don't want to act on it! It is certainly something, for both of us, to be very aware and careful but also to focus on our healing so that we don't harm our marriage.

But I also 100% identify with Notwendy's description too..

I was afraid of a relationship with a real person. If I was in one, I was afraid to be myself. I was afraid to rock the boat and very afraid they'd get angry at me over something. They didn't get the real me. They got a people pleasing version of me.

Yes. I think I was also conditioned to be wary of guys and to not pursue relationships. Very much raised in the religious "purity movement" that was all about NOT dating, NOT kissing, NOT having sex. There was a lot of rules and shame around it all. And we didn't talk about sex in my home growing up. I got "the talk" at age 10 and nothing after that. I believe that contributed to my fear of dating (as well as just having no idea who I really was) and consequently, feeling undesirable because no guys actually wanted to date me.

Anyway I guess that's a bit off-topic, but it's all part of what I've been processing this week. I've just started reading the book Unwanted by Jay Stringer. It's all about how our "unwanted sexual behavior" stems from childhood /FOO trauma. It is a Christian-based book, just FYI, but three chapters in, I am getting  a lot from it and would recommend it!

[Couscous]

The tendency to feel attraction or fantasize...even though I don't want to act on it! It is certainly something, for both of us, to be very aware and careful but also to focus on our healing so that we don't harm our marriage.

I also think just making a decision to slam the door on any budding attraction can go a long way to combatting this. When I realized how much I would talk with my H’s (married!) best male friend and that I was beginning to feel some attraction, I decided to stop talking to him one-on-one, and that completely solved the problem and the feelings completely fizzled out.

[Notwendy]

Very much raised in the religious "purity movement" that was all about NOT dating, NOT kissing, NOT having sex.

I understood the rule about not having sex before marriage but I don't think I got it from my parents. Then later on I realized that not that many people seemed to  followed that rule. I surely didn't want to get pregnant and would not have risked that. But also it seemed to bother BPD mother if I wasn't "dating" someone and at one point she encouraged me to be in a situation where I felt the guy was not treating me right, but she encouraged me into it anyway.

There was a difference between dating in her generation and mine. Dating to her was a guy taking her out to the movies or dinner, the guy paid for all of it,  and that was it. She had lots of dates and dated lots of guys in college. In my generation it was more hanging out and egalitarian, less of it being all up to the guy. My mother seemed disappointed that I "didn't have lots of dates" but I tried to explain that things are different now and I didn't want to have all these "dates" like she did.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I also think just making a decision to slam the door on any budding attraction can go a long way to combatting this. When I realized how much I would talk with my H’s (married!) best male friend and that I was beginning to feel some attraction, I decided to stop talking to him one-on-one, and that completely solved the problem and the feelings completely fizzled out.

Yes, for me, what really helped is that I don't have "couple of friends" anymore. If a couple come here to have drink, then I give almost no attention to the man, except when all the attention would need to be on him as societal rule because he is telling a story. Otherwise, the men are together, and the women together. It is very old fashioned, but I know understand why it was this way.

My husband is a firm believer that actual friendship between a man and a woman who are both straigth is never only friendship, that there is always an underlying flirt. We had many discussions about my own friendships with men without any flirt and while he didn't give me any grief about it, he certainly didn't agree, and believed I was being naive. He told me himself that if I ever see him develop a real friendship with a woman, to call him back to me. He is military though, and as such, he is surrounded by a certain type of males. But basically, the way he says it, he has never been interested in being friend with a woman. For friends, he always looked to men, or homosexual women, naturally. With women, he doesn't see the point of only friendship, especially when he is in a relationship. He is not a womanizer, nor see women as objects either... He is actually very old fashioned, even in the way he dates. Just realized it. I guess, to him, I am supposed to be his only "female best friend", and him my only "male best friend", and we can find other men and women for friendships and to relate... I would have thought this to be a bit messed up and controlling, but that was before getting married and experimenting it... It makes it much easier to protect our marriage and make it work this way.

It also might be that what we all experience is very natural, and biological to a certain extent? But that for some, it goes all the way to clear dysfunction. I don't feel dysfunctional anymore. I cheated before my husband, that is true, I dated and looked for love in sexual encounters and I was dysfunctional to the extent that I could never commit entirely, but then I also chose relationships that set me up to feel disconnected. My husband was different. We got married four months in the relationship  and moved together 10 hours away. It could have been a real mess, but it also didn't leave any room for commitment issue and family dysfunction.

I always end up writing so much... It truly clears my mind, helps me understood who I am. WalkByFaith, I will certainly look into this book. I was raised outside of religion. My household was completely different from yours. I saw my mother having rough sexual encounters very often, at a very young age, and with a lot of different men. Some of those memories feel traumatizing. I also saw my father completely disregard his responsibility as a father and confide in me how it went in the bedroom with his girlfriends when I was only 15yo and still a virgin. I can now comprehend how deeply wrong this all was. My parents were both sexual and love addicts, clearly to the point of dysfunction. I am this morning thinking that it might also be that I simply have fleas. I can relate to the book in many ways, but do I truly carried their example to the point of dysfunction?

I don't feel like any of you did either... carry your parents behavior to the point of complete dysfunction. You are all much too self-aware.  

Also thank you Couscous and ZeroSumGames for the validation and support. I do think my daughter felt abandoned, and in hindsight, I should have put my son down form my arms, and first ask her for a big hug before asking her to grab her bag to come home. And next time, that is what I will do. Because in the afternoon, it is as if she regressed to baby, came in my arms for cradle hugs, cried a bunch, said she liked school, but then said she wanted to stay with me... There is a lot going on in her 4yo head and I know it isn't about me, but about the transition. I truly need to manage my trauma. This transition is hard on all of us right now. The end of a chapter I truly enjoyed, and will never be able to read again. I am looking forward to the next chapter, but there is still a lot of grief happening.

[Notwendy]

I agree with your H. It's not that friendship isn't possible but that often, an affair doesn't begin with two people meeting and jumping into bed. That can happen but I think most people if they are seeking an affair outside of marriage, they are seeking a connection that they may be missing at home. Now for some, it's the thrill of the forbidden physical but I think some are driven by loneliness and a need for connection.

A friendship could be the first step to that. Often we hear a story about a husband running off with his wife's best friend or vice versa or a workplace romance between people working closely together due to spending a lot of time together. How many Hollywood romances begin with actors on a film together?

Emotional connection, might be more of a temptation for people like us who grew up longing for a connection with our parents.

I have also found that this might not be the same way that a man who grew up with the traditional role models can easily do. Actually, I don't think one person should be saddled with the responsibility of meeting all of a person's emotional needs- they shouldn't be your only friend but still be your most significant relationship. However, I think we need to have strong boundaries around a marriage if we want to value it.

I don't have guy buddies. There are a few childhood friends out there. I want to maintain contact as these friendships were formed early on. But we don't live anywhere near each other and the few times we have had a school reunion, it's with families and spouses, not a one on one situation.

I work with men and women. We can talk about things besides work such as a movie, or music, or something like that but no personal venting or discussing relationships. We work in a group situation and there are always other people around.

If I really want an emotional vent, cry on shoulder, share session- female friends and siblings provide that if it's not something H is wanting to do.

I think we need to keep that line between workplace chatter and TMI- as I think most of us work or spend time in mixed company. Work does meet a social need but a superficial one.

[Couscous]

Last week my therapist told me about another book called The Emotional Incest Syndrome: https://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Incest-Syndrome-Parents-Rules/dp/055335275X?dplnkId=CE572E8B-AD12-41C4-8A5A-7E50C93F92FC

I found a copy on archive.org and am just a few pages in, and can already tell it is much more in depth than Silently Seduced, and almost two thirds (almost 200 pages) of it is devoted to recovery. It also addresses emotional incest with the same-sex parent.

It also explains how emotional incest causes intense sibling rivalry and I am now realizing that my siblings have been “persecuting” me because I was my dad’s “favorite”, and essentially they are displacing their anger towards him onto me for something that I am not responsible for. Incidentally, I have noticed a trend on this board of a fair number of people who have either gone NC or are on very bad terms with the “golden child”, yet remain in at least some contact with their parents, when what should be happening is that all of the adult children should unite against the parents and if anyone is to be cut off, it should be the parents and not the GC. Chosen/golden children were also victimized by their enmeshed parent and persecuting them for the situation is rather unjust.
 

[Riv3rW0lf]

It also explains how emotional incest causes intense sibling rivalry and I am now realizing that my siblings have been “persecuting” me because I was my dad’s “favorite”, and essentially they are displacing their anger towards him onto me for something that I am not responsible for. Incidentally, I have noticed a trend on this board of a fair number of people who have either gone NC or are on very bad terms with the “golden child”, yet remain in at least some contact with their parents, when what should be happening is that all of the adult children should unite against the parents and if anyone is to be cut off, it should be the parents and not the GC. Chosen/golden children were also victimized by their enmeshed parent and persecuting them for the situation is rather unjust.
 

I see your point... And I agree. Although I'd like to mitigate it a little bit... While we were all, as children, victims of our parents, we are not children anymore... Hence not victim anymore either. And so, I do have to hold my adult brothers accountable for their choices and actions now. Just as they now have a right to hold me accountable for mine.

It is an incredibly hurtful loss to realize that our parents illness and decision now force us to cut ties, or to lower contact with, in some cases, almost all of our family members...

My brother and I haven't talk in a while. I've noticed a competition between us, more and more, like he is divided between his love of me and his desire to protect his little sister, and his anger and jealousy of the love and pride my father gave me... I understand the dynamic, and in a sense, you are right, it isn't me he is angry at, but me that pays part of the price for my parents decision. while I can remain loving of him, I cannot control who he is and his decisions and if he ends up saying hurtful things and not respecting my clear boundaries : I will have to hold him accountable despite him having been a victim, same as me...

I understand why a lot of people on here are struggling with their sibblings, and why they decide to cut contact like I think you had to do... It is unjust that we have to lose our sibblings too... But in the end, our healing and preserving our mental health and sanity has to take priority.

[Couscous]

It is an incredibly hurtful loss to realize that our parents illness and decision now force us to cut ties, or to lower contact with, in some cases, almost all of our family members...

This is why I feel like we would have been better off had we been orphaned… At least we’d still have sibling relationships.

But I can see how the sibling rivalry wasn’t just an unfortunate side-effect of having had dysfunctional parents — but rather it was something that both parents actively encouraged. Both parents benefited greatly from the sibling rivalry — and they still do. I’m almost certain that they felt threatened by our sibling bonds and as such had no qualms whatsoever about undermining them. When my sons notice that I have served their sibling a slightly larger portion of a food they hate, they cry foul — so I do not believe for one second that our parents were oblivious of the impact that their favoritism was having.

All this to say, I think I will be taking a very long hiatus from BOTH of my parents…

[Riv3rW0lf]

This is why I feel like we would have been better off had we been orphaned… At least we’d still have sibling relationships.

Thinking of myself as an orphan has been a huge help in reparenting myself, to not feel like I need my parents and siblings validation. Somehow, I don't feel the loss of my siblings... I think there was so much anger and rage in our house that I never truly bonded with them. They are also much older than I am... So it's not like I have ever spent a lot of time with then. What tied us together was trauma. Now that I refuse to act traumatized, there is no interest left for a relationship with them... Its just not fun to be around them.

I needed to write down some thoughts I had this morning..they have nothing to do with BPD, but are more aligned with Silently Seduced and covert incest. Now that I am aware of my own relationship with my father, I really took steps to put my husband first. And it worked beautifully for our relationship and our own family dynamic.

This morning, this happened though that made me realize something about my husband, which I always kinda knew... His mother came to have breakfast with us, by herself, because his father is away for two weeks to help his own brother in another province. So we invited her for brunch.

And they were talking together and I heard my husband offer her to drive her to another city to help her out... He offered her, out of the blue, without asking me first, to drive her two hours, and to come back, resulting in a four hours drive, without even asking me first if we have something scheduled with the children. This is SO out of character... She just wanted him to lift her to the bus station, and he told her he could drive her all the way there??

And it hit me : his father is not there.

He was raised with a father that would leave a two weeks, come back for one, and his mother basically raised him alone two thirds of the time. She was also sick for a while. And hearing them this morning, and the way he acted and spoke to her... I felt, for the first time ever in this relationship, like the other woman. Gave me flashbacks of the other boyfriend I mentioned last post.

It was the first time I ever saw them together without his father there...

I am creeped out.

His mother left to go to the bathroom and I told my husband :you know, I would appreciate you checking in with me before promising to lift your mother to "the other city".

And he stonewalled me ! Like it was normal because it was his mother ! If I had done anything like that for my father, he would have freaked out !

His mother respects me though, and she mostly talked with me, the dynamic subsided... But only because she was respectful of my presence...I can't believe my husband acted this way though...

Explains why we match...he has intermittent mommy issues. When his father is not there, the tension appears, he wants to be his mother's man, savior...husband. And when his father is there, it resorbs, explaining why I never picked up on it.

I am... Creeped out, by him. By his capacity of shutting me out like this so easily. But then, I did the same thing to him, didn't I? Before I was conscious...How do I bring it up to him now though...

Honestly I am disgusted by what I picked up on this morning, completely disgusted...

I also feel abandoned and like I wanna run away far from him, like I just lost trust. And I know this is not a normal reaction, that I am seeing all this bigger than it is... That we might work it out together over time.. but I hate this. He doesn't know. I think part of him knows though, which is why he got scared when I asked him to read Silently Seduced. He was on guard, doesn't want to hear about it. I think I always knew too, but this morning, feeling like the other woman like that... Really hurt.

[Couscous]

Courage Riverwolf! I can so empathize with how you are probably feeling right now. In times like these what helps me is to use the 123 Process, and to think of all the ways my husband is different from my mother. Yes, your H got sucked into his old role but you made it clear that you will not tolerate it, and now your H can learn from this. It’s an opportunity for growth for him as well as for your relationship. I know it’s hard, but try not to take it too personally or panic too much just yet. After he reads Silently Seduced and he has had a few days to absorb the information you could talk about it with him. In the meantime please do whatever you need to to take care of yourself. 

Here’s a video about the 123 process that I think you might find very useful: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tuQPZndGJv0

[Notwendy]

Wow Riverwolf- those "match points" can be hard to see but they are opportunities.

My H would do these kinds of things too. He'd be too busy to clear his schedule for me but if his parents came down, he'd jump through hoops for them. If I said something he'd deny it or say something mean back. Shades of mother dearest. I was listening to a video that popped up in my FB thread ( funny these coincidences-   ) where a woman who has BPD and a lot of recovery was talking about her experiences. She said things like " people with BPD can do ____X___ but so can people with CPTSD and people raised in a insecure environment. ( I recognized a couple things I have done and so I believe her ) So I do think there are overlapping behaviors, a spectrum, and full blown BPD. So our partners, if they are raised with some level of "less than nurturing" could take on some of these behaviors and matched with our own experiences with a BPD parent create dysfunction.

I don't think my H intentionally put other people's priorities before mine. I don't think your H intentionally meant to not consider you when he offered to drive his mother. The tendency for my H to "jump into people pleasing " with his parents ( and sometimes others) is an automatic response. Have you ever found yourself in the middle of doing something and thought- wow- look at what I am doing. For instance, my H might say " is there anything in the fridge for lunch " and next thing I am in the middle of cutting his sandwich in half and thinking "why isn't he making his own sandwich?" because it has been automatic to jump into caretaking role.

I am not sure that what your H did is emotionally incestual in the disordered sense but it may be the "normal" in his family to help your mother since his father wasn't around much. I don't think she's depending on him for her emotional needs. But having an absent father means he didn't have a consistent role model for how to be a husband either. My father in law had a difficult childhood and you can see how it impacted his ability to emotionally connect with his family even though he was present and provided for him. I see the need to "please parents" on the part of the children as wanting some kind of affirmation or attention from them as his MIL was probably very busy and Dad was not emotionally available.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Couscous, thank you for the video. I think I was able to manage my own trigger, but my husband is still not back from his. The video is helpful... Maybe I need to look at it from his perspective from when he was a child. But I'm not sure... I do feel I was right though, that because we have two young children, that it is just common courtesy to let me know that he would like to do this (drive his mother four hours away). He says he shouldn't have to ask my permission to do things, but it's not permission, it's courtesy, it's consideration, because when he leaves, I have to manage two young children, and one of them has a dancing class, might have something else going on... So I don't know what it is that triggered him like that. I don't feel I was too angry either. I just asked told him: "I think you could have checked with me first", and I even waited for his mother to leave...

Later on, I confronted him again on what happened, and he was out of himself. And I really had to step up more than I'd like. I kept repeating him: "I am not telling you to be perfect, I am just trying to express how it hurts, and how out of character it was. I'd like you to see it. You and I are a team, I don't want to control you, I want us to be considerate of each other." He kept repeating he didn't want to be scolded in front of his mother (which I didn't), that he saw an opportunity to spend time alone with her and wanted to take it (which I don't get, because this never happens when his father is around)... So I do feel there is something there...

I am not sure how I will approach this. He went for a walk with our son, and came back expecting me to regret what I had said? I told him I didn't, but would like to reset and understand, and he stonewalled me.

Boy, I have no idea how to go about that one right now...

Notwendy, I also do that... All. The. Time. He says : this is dirty, and next thing I know I am cleaning it up... And I sometimes realize it too, and that I don't really want to do it... But I also don't want him criticizing again, and I do try to keep him happy..

He is mostly safe, but he is easily frustrated... He told me often he knows he is egoist and lazy, and is trying to fight it. He says he was always like that... I have a hard time believing it.

The more I look at him, the more I think his father put him down... He was younger and was raised with his mother illness, he saw his mother alone a lot, abandoned by his father, and I think he tried to be there for her. And she would let him. And when his father came back, he would be put down... Which is likely why he reacted to strongly ? Maybe I put myself between his mother and him like his father would? I don't know...

And you are right Notwendy, it doesn't mean it is emotional incest either. Something though, in his father leaving, triggered something... He is always fine with his mother visiting alone, he goes to see her, wants us to invite her... But when his father is there, he doesn't want to visit, he doesn't want me to invite them...

I was triggered by his reaction. But I know I was fair in my request...

Now he is emotionally shut down to me... So yes, definitely the BPD trait my mother had too...

And to protect my children, I have to work through it and keep fighting to join him again, but I mean... I do feel, deeply, that my request was fair...

Thank you guys though, helps to know I am not alone !

I know a board we need : love relationships of adult children of a BPD parent...

[Notwendy]

love relationships of adult children of a BPD parent

That's there in some of the posts on the relationship section. I think people post about the relationships that bother them the most but it's all connected and on a spectrum. So it may be that we chose someone who isn't fully BPD but with whom we may replicate some of the patterns we experienced/observed in our families of origin. The  dynamics in our families influence who we are attracted to and who is attracted to us.

I've posted on there from time to time but also feel that since my situation has been relatively milder- the posters are in need of advice for more serious situations. But that doesn't mean it's been easy. One of the mysteries in the early years of my marriage was how could I have married someone different from my mother and yet some of the patterns I observed in my parents seemed similar to issues we had and it was a rough time for a while there. It's not as if there aren't quirks along the way now but a key step was for me to work on co-dependency.

If we had a conflict, my H would blame me and I'd assume it was true. His family appeared "normal" so I must be the one who was the cause of the problem as my upbringing was not. Sound familiar? BPD mother blamed me for the issues in our family and I didn't know any different. So I began to read books on marriage and relationships to see if I could "fix" the issues and this is where I came across the idea that we "match" our partners in some ways. Yet how could his seemingly "normal" family be any match with mine? They seemed like total opposites.

It was a marriage counselor who brought up the idea that the opposite behavior of dysfunction can be dysfunction. We want to aim for middle in our behaviors. One can be too controlled, too strong boundaries and there was a match point. My BPD mother's behavior is out of control. H's family was very controlled. My father was co-dependent and so was H's mother. FIL was physically present, emotionally distant and critical. H's golden child role was how he coped. Neither of us had role models for how to manage disagreements. When we grow up in dysfunction, we don't know what "normal" is. I just knew the family dynamics in my family were not normal.

This influence on who we match with is a reason why family dysfunction can become intergenerational. I didn't want to role model the kind of behaviors my mother has, but all the while I was role modeling co-dependency - as I had assumed my father was the "normal" one. My motivation for working on this was for myself and also to role model something better for my kids.

 

[Riv3rW0lf]

I've posted on there from time to time but also feel that since my situation has been relatively milder- the posters are in need of advice for more serious situations. But that doesn't mean it's been easy.

I think this is why I also don't post there.

It helps to know I am not the only one struggling. I vowed to commit myself fully to my husband, and it is interesting to see all my mechanisms activated when there is a "match point" like you said (I like this phrasing). How easily I feel swayed and just want to run away.

It came to a resolution yesterday evening. I found the loving space to listen to him, to why he got so angry. He says it was because of the timing, yet, because we were both calm, he was also able to see that I did wait and didn't confront him in front of his mother.

Then he said it is because I accused him of not caring for us... Then he realized, I had never said that, that my point had always been that this was out of character, that it was the first time he did something like that. That I needed to let him know, so that it wouldn't repeat, because it hurt.

So then he said: I'd rather you tell me I hurt you, instead of analyzing my behavior from a psychological standpoint... I agreed. I was out of place.

I still believe there is something going on there. He feels compelled to take care of his mother when his father is absent. And I do think he discarded us to go above and beyond for her in an effort to show he could be a good son like his brother, despite her not asking him anything. It is not enmeshment though... I think it is the effort of a scapegoat to show he can be a good son like his golden child brother.

What I find interesting is that : he is always happy to see his mother alone, or to invite her by herself. He never wants to help his parents, but will go above and beyond to help his mother. He doesn't want to ask help from his father, will be pissed if I invite them both to diner, but just his mother, he is ok with that and even looks forward to it... This is why I thought about silently seduced... But then, it is clear to me that his mother also "prefers" his brother... She only has good things to say about his brother, while she will call me husband "her rebel", the one who didn't listen..

Honestly, I am trying to figure it out to better handle those kind of match points.

I guess, for now, we came to an understanding. He finally said he was sorry, that he didn't want to hurt me.

I know I can work with him, but goodness, when he gets angry, he shuts down completely, for very long periods of time. And then, he doesn't want to talk about it... Which for me doesn't make sense. Communication is key, always. And he knows that... It's like he assumes I will not see him either, that the communication will be one way... But it never is, and never was. I saw him change as we were speaking... He was seeing me as a controlling wife for a minute there, then he realized it wasn't the case... Finally found each other again. But this is just bound to happen again and again if he doesn't start looking inside of him... which he told me clearly he doesn't see the point in doing.

I can work with him, but I'd like him to do his own work too.

[Notwendy]

I can work with him, but I'd like him to do his own work too.

That may not happen, and depending on his own coping mechanisms, he may not feel any need to do this.

I was the one who read piles of books on marriage, went to therapy by myself, tried to get H go go with me ( unsuccessfully ). As far as he was concerned, it was all my issues and if I'd just focus on the good, there'd be no problem. His most aggravating response to my bringing anything up was "well it's not all bad is it?" As if a situation had to be completely awful to feel it wasn't working well. Well no, he wasn't physically abusing me, we weren't starving, but he was not being kind to me, and co-dependent me was just trying harder to please him and enabling the behavior.

Eventually, I emotionally disengaged. I didn't make plans to leave the marriage. The kids were little and he wasn't involved much anyway. It was easy to just be me and the kids and that's how I decided to see it. Divorce would have split up the kids in two homes and I didn't want to do that. It wasn't that he was mistreating me as basically wasn't emotionally available, so I disengaged. I didn't know about the push pull dynamics then, and it wasn't on purpose but he began being super nice to me again, and it worked for a while but then I could see it wasn't working. Then around the time my Dad passed away, I was done with drama. I think he could sense that and agreed to marriage counseling.

So I went expecting the MC to call him out on his behavior and work on his part of the issues. She was smarter than that. She knew that if she did, he'd walk out. She then put the label on me- co-dependent. I was angry. How could I be the only one with the problem? It wasn't fair. But she got me into co-dependency work - but not for the marriage- for me.

I am the beneficiary of the work and I am grateful for it. As I learned better emotional regulation skills and boundaries, my H's part in the dynamics decreased. Did he ever work on his own stuff? Not really. I think it would be good for him- good for anyone really- but he has to decide that. We both learned better emotional regulation skills and better communication. Neither of us knew how to do that. In my home, BPD mother was raging and dissociating. In his home, people didn't speak about conflict- they just acted as if all was OK, so neither of us learned how to do that well.

One thing I did learn was to stay on my side of the fence- other people's issues are not my business.

I can work with him, but I'd like him to do his own work too.

No, you don't work with him. One can not do someone else's emotional work and vice versa. You can work with you.  his issues are his to manage. Doing this work is an investment in you and can impact how you relate to everyone, not just the marriage, and the skills you gain become yours.

[Riv3rW0lf]

No, you don't work with him. One can not do someone else's emotional work and vice versa. You can work with you.  his issues are his to manage. Doing this work is an investment in you and can impact how you relate to everyone, not just the marriage, and the skills you gain become yours.

I agree with you. I meant it more as a : "I am not scared of him." His anger tantrums are a soft breeze compared to what I've been through, so he doesn't scare me, and I don't really tiptoe around him. That's what I meant by "I can work with him." As a team. To keep going.

In the end, when we sit down calmly, when I approach him with love, as his teammate, he does listen, and he does apologize. He just has a really hard time doing it on the moment. His initial reaction is to get angry at me, and shut me down. If I hold, even calmly, he gets angry and leaves. He says it is how I say things, but there is no right way to say anything. I tried.

It's like he needs to go through this cycle... And if I don't reach out from a place of love later on, the fight will go on and on forever. I can't really remember him being the one breaking the silence between us.

But in the end, he will always take responsibility for his part, he will acknowledge how he was hurtful and he will apologize. Maybe he doesn't need therapy... Overall, he does seem to be balanced, and maybe we balance each other out too...

Now that your children are grown, has the dynamic changed between your husband and you?

[Notwendy]

Now that your children are grown, has the dynamic changed between your husband and you?

It's better in ways but not something I expected. I think my expectations of relationships in general may have been skewed by how I was raised. I think I had a sort of fantasy about a good relationship based on TV, or what I thought it would be, not having had an example of it.

I have better emotional communication skills and I think I imagined heart to heart talks and doing a lot of things together but we have different styles of boundaries. I think mine were too squishy- not well defined. BPD mother didn't respect boundaries and so we didn't know how do that. In H's family, they had boundaries of steel. Deep conversations were non existent. There is an emotional connection but their style of speech doesn't go too deep. I realized that my H needed space and the more I needed closeness it just frustrated him. It's not that he's doing anything wrong, he is present and good to us, but he needs his emotional space and he's a lot more comfortable when he has it.

With the kids grown, I have more time to do my own thing too- went back to work full time. We have some mutual interests but separate ones too. I used to worry about us "growing apart" but I can't force togetherness. I think we understand each other better.

I think I had to let go of my old ideas about "love" because- I think "love" was confused with a lot of other feelings- fear, people pleasing, enmeshment and also the idea of what is marriage. I think it should be a good thing overall, but it's not something designed to make us feel comfortable all the time. I heard it described as a "crucible" and one reason we match with someone with whom we may play out our FOO issues is to give us the opportunity to work through them. I think it's been a good match in this sense as it's been a secure attachment for both of us.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I have better emotional communication skills and I think I imagined heart to heart talks and doing a lot of things together but we have different styles of boundaries. I think mine were too squishy- not well defined. BPD mother didn't respect boundaries and so we didn't know how do that. In H's family, they had boundaries of steel. Deep conversations were non existent. There is an emotional connection but their style of speech doesn't go too deep. I realized that my H needed space and the more I needed closeness it just frustrated him. It's not that he's doing anything wrong, he is present and good to us, but he needs his emotional space and he's a lot more comfortable when he has it.

It sounds like you are married to my husband...

I think I will have to let go too of any real emotional closeness with him. It is a bit sad, no?

Getting married before I figured out my trauma... Had children. Now I am trapped, in a way. Because I have to do the good things for my children. Because life isn't about me right now, they are too young.

And I'm stuck with an emotionally immature man, with BPD traits and highly egocentrist... At least he knows this second part and is working on it to do well by us. He loves his children... In the end, maybe that's enough.

I guess things will get easier when my children are grown, when I can find some of my own freedom back too.

I wonder if some people are able to get it... The emotional closeness with their partner.

So far, I cannot find anyone around me who truly seem to have it. They are all together apart? Maybe that's part of the fun... Forcing us toward self-growth..

Do you love him?

I sometimes wonder if I ever truly loved my husband.. he felt familiar to me when I met him. But I don't think I was ever in love with him. I kinda knew I could make it work somehow. But I didn't know who I was back then. Now I have a better idea.

Take the goods, accept the bads and keep going I guess...

[Turkish]

I sometimes wonder if I ever truly loved my husband.. he felt familiar to me when I met him. But I don't think I was ever in love with him.

A group of us on the Detaching/Leaving board discussed this very subject some years ago. There were a few of us there...

[Notwendy]

He may grow emotionally- as you will too. I felt like you did when the kids were little. I admit, at that point my decisions were about what was best for them. He's been a good father to them. That is important to me- that whatever issues either of us may have- we are good to them.

Part of my own emotional growth was distinguishing between wanting closeness and perhaps finding the "love" I imagined was out there when I was growing up. I question my own ideas of "love" as love growing up in my family was confusing. What is love anyway?

From my reading, it's a verb, not a feeling. That feeling of "in love" may be the initial high of a new relationship. It doesn't last - even for couples who "felt it". So the fact that you didn't feel that "in love" feeling may not be an issue over time in your marriage. Love, the verb, is different.

I think I had all my ideas of what I wanted in marriage but I had no role model for it- as if mine would be so completely different from what I saw with my parents. But marriage between any two people can be messy at times. Sometimes it doesn't work but if the main values are there- and actions on them- commitment to family, to each other- I think both can work at it.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Turkish, do you remember the title of the post? I'm not very proficient with the search engine of the website.

I think I had all my ideas of what I wanted in marriage but I had no role model for it- as if mine would be so completely different from what I saw with my parents. But marriage between any two people can be messy at times. Sometimes it doesn't work but if the main values are there- and actions on them- commitment to family, to each other- I think both can work at it.

Thank you for this Notwendy.

I think we are both working at it. And everyone has bad days. I told myself often that I didn't need the butterflies, as long as there was communication and a will to grow.

I am starting to see a pattern in our relationship, but it is still very blurry. Understanding it would help me find what I need to do on my end. It is hard to work on codependancy with young children. It doesn't feel right using them as leverage. In the end, one of us needs to be there emotionnally and physically for them, and if it's not him, then it needs to be me. And since he doesn't seem to be able to be there for them more than he currently is, then it falls on me. As long as the children are ok, it's truly all that matters.

But I am trying to keep him happy, to prevent any backlash on them too. When he is frustrated, it is one thing. But when he truly gets angry is another. But then, I am the one that seems to be setting him off whenever I ask that he considers me. This seems to be his main struggle.

Like... He feels stuck with his family, crawling under the weight of the responsibilities. To him, he is ready considering us, because he is not out drinking, or playing video games all day long. So whenever he does not treat us as a team (those moments are when I started speaking up), like taking the car without letting me know (I always let him know, in case he needs it), promising his mother he will drive her to another city without checking in with me, etc., And I mention it, he gets awfully angry.

I think deep within, he knows he messed up, and the shame is too much to bear. So he turns it around, saying I am the one who is too difficult, who asks too much. I'm sure it happens in all relationships. But it's the anger that is the real issue, and his reactivity. He is highly reactive and while I am not scared of him, it's true that I don't like having to say things, because I don't want the fight that will come with it. And there is never any apology. It's like nothing happened.

Then he feels bad, and for a few days, he goes above and beyond to be nicer to us, will offer me more "time off". It's not that he is looking for emotional reconnection, it's that he is looking for forgiveness, like a dog with the tail between his legs. But most times, I already forgave, and I wouldn't mind things continuing like they were. I am not angry at him, yet he projects so much anger on me. And I feel this is from his childhood, more than it is about me. A pattern he learned with his parents. Or maybe he is reacting to my disappointment.

He can be my best team mate, but sometimes I do get the Jekyll and Hide sentiment. I know he is not BPD, he can make amends, he doesn't blame be all the time, he can overall self-soothe. But he is incredibly reactive, angry and it doesn't take much to set him off. So for me, this is my mother.  

He says it is because he is a man, because of testosterone... Doesn't sound quite right to me though. But you are right that in the end, I cannot fix him. So I will have to work around his mild empathy impairment, cut him some slack, and take care of myself. Take whatever I can get right now as help, and ensure the children are fine. I will have more time later. More freedom.

And I do think I will have to rethink our couple goals. And that emotional closeness, the way I envisioned it as a little girl, will simply never happen. That we can have something else instead. A rational understanding, a partnership. All in all, it's not so bad.it gets lonely sometimes, but I can self-soothe loneliness. And I also do better alone anyway.

[Notwendy]

Your H sounds a lot like mine when the kids were younger.

In the Karpman triangle - it's dysfunctional when adults take victim perspective and they aren't true victims. Children can be true victims- they don't have a choice, they are completely dependent on their parents. Being co-dependent is assuming responsibility for another adult who is capable and can make choices. Caretaking children isn't being co-dependent and if the other parent doesn't have the emotional capacity to do it, your defaulting to doing it is for them, not him.

I did that as well. It was better for me to be the main caregiver for them. During this time I also had a lot of resentment as it impacted my career goals.

Consider your H's role model ( father ). My FIL had his own emotional trauma and also trauma from being in the military during WW2. My father did too. I think a generation of fathers and grandfathers experienced war trauma. He role modeled these things: provider for the family and protector of the family. That was about it. He was loyal. He didn't show emotions but providing for the family was how he showed he cared. I don't think he ever did any housework. MIL did all that. My H cognitively knew better- he married a woman who also had a career- but emotionally, he reacted like his father if I asked him to do anything he saw as his mother's role. Anger seems to be the only allowable "manly" emotion growing up and his father could get angry at times.

By contrast, I am a team player, at work, and at home as much as it could be possible.

I did "fall in love". It was H who seemed to fall out of it- resent the marriage, resent the responsibilities and the emotional neglect was evident. On my part, I wore out emotionally and eventually just didn't care. If he wanted to walk out the door and not return, I don't think I'd have cared ( except for the kids) and at times, I wish he'd have left rather than stay and treat me like that. Was this the push pull? I don't know as I didn't do it for that reason but I think he sensed something and decided he wanted the marriage and that made the work possible.

Empty nest was a change. The idea of "staying for the kids" doesn't apply as much. I concede he's made a lot of effort to make things better. I think I actually had to stop the co-dependent behaviors for this to happen. That's the risk though- sometimes the other person may leave if things change, or perhaps - like it is with my BPD mother- without the drama - there's less emotions in the relationship.  There is love there. That song from Fiddler on the Roof where the daughters are wanting to marry for love rather than an arranged marriage and a puzzled Tevia asks his wife if she loves him and "if that's not love what is" - it's not the butterflies one has when meeting someone you are attracted to but something more stable.

In fact, for me, I think the butterflies might be misleading as they are influenced by our FOO. Butterflies might lead someone into trouble.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Consider your H's role model ( father ). My FIL had his own emotional trauma and also trauma from being in the military during WW2. My father did too. I think a generation of fathers and grandfathers experienced war trauma. He role modeled these things: provider for the family and protector of the family. That was about it. He was loyal. He didn't show emotions but providing for the family was how he showed he cared. I don't think he ever did any housework. MIL did all that. My H cognitively knew better- he married a woman who also had a career- but emotionally, he reacted like his father if I asked him to do anything he saw as his mother's role. Anger seems to be the only allowable "manly" emotion growing up and his father could get angry at times.

Based on many discussions I've had with MIL and H, H's grandmother and grandfather are likely narcissistic. H told me once that there is a lot of pressure in his family to not shame them, to become something, to achieve things. That those who fail to do so, get scapegoated. That he was on his way to be a problem for his family when he decided he didn't want to go to university. He ended up joining the army in an effort to leave altogether... Leave the region and leave the family system.

His grandmother abused his mother, and I have seen FIL becomes entirely different when in the presence of his mother and father. He goes from a highly talkative man, a proud man, to completely silent and shut down. He is the main caregiver of his aging parents right now, and he cannot stand up to his mother at all.

So my understanding is that FIL and MIL are both a bit codependent. MIL told me recently she could never talked to her own MIL the way I do. That her MIL would come and leave with her son without telling her, and bring him back only a week later. Would give him a crazy amount of sugar, and that she could never bring herself to stand up to her, because she feared the backlash. So... I assume the grandparents are very narcissistic.

The grandfather was known by the women around to be "dirty". He would go around and grab the women's bottom. Did it to me on my wedding day actually. FIL tried a few things like that with me too, but I told H who wrote an email that I never saw. And it completely stopped. Now FIL is very respectful of my bubble. H says he learned about his grandfather's behaviors when he was a teenager, from another woman, and he felt such shame... That's when he decided to be a gentleman. And he really is. Dating him was amazing... Nice dates, he would ask me to put beautiful dresses, bring me to the best restaurant in town, and wouldn't even ask for a kiss in exchange. He was always respectful and would wait for me to come to him. I felt I could take my time with him, and I did. He was safe and protective. He didn't learned that from his father though, he learned it in reaction to what he heard about his grandfather.

FIL left a lot for work. My understanding is that when he came home, MIL would relax while FIL took charge of the house.H told me once he always felt FIL was unahppy with his family... Went as far as saying :" have you seen my mother? She cannot hold a discussion, she is boring, she doesn't even try to keep her man interested and she doesn't even cook well." All this to say .. I think he blame his father for abandoning him, and he also blame his mother for not trying harder, for not being more?

His brother was the perfect son. MIL often tells me how perfect her life was when she only had him. Often she would tell me how H was harder, harsher. That it was too much for her. From what I got, MIL became sick when H reached 10yo, and FIL had trouble at work, got depressed. H fell into the cracks, but he says he used it to do whatever he wanted. Started acting out, lying, selling drugs, hacking people, got in trouble with law enforcement for stealing. His parents couldn't handle him. MIL kept doing everything for him when FIL wasn't home, and FIL would blame him and scapegoat him when he came back.

When H told them he wanted to have his business, become an electrician (FIL work), FIL screamed at him. It got pretty bad... H joined the army shortly after. He says he felt completely lost.

He often says his father didn't show him how to be a father, but then he says his father was always there when he needed him. And MIL says FIL took care of his sons when he was home... So my best guess is : FIL had a golden child and a scapegoat... H would have been his father's scapegoat.

The tension between them is still palpable. And I do find H dysregulates more when FIL is scheduled to visit.

I think this is partly why he tries to be around us a lot. But he will sometimes lose control and get angry, likely because this is what his father might have done to him, as his scapegoat... I don't know.

Like you, H chose me to compensate for his mother's lack of conversation. I had a degree in science, I had dreams, I had a career, an interest in physics, weather, politics...

I think most of his issues really stem from his relationship with his father. But he said he solved it already when he left. From my standpoint though : he internalized his father's shame. He blames himself, he says he was always an egoist who didn't care for his family... But I see how part of him really is looking out for us. He really means well... It seems to me he convinced himself he was lazy and narcissistic, based on what his father told him growing up. He will often call himself an idiot when he messes up something, and he gets frustrated and angry at himself. Breaks my heart to see him this way. And no amount of love seem to help.

He projects his father's criticism and anger on me. I was talking with my daughter earlier, told her to sit down to eat and I heard him say ; what have I done again? And I answered : what? I wasn't speaking to you. He did that twice this morning. Like... Because the last fight we had really escalated to crazyness. He scared me that time. Yesterday I was in shock, couldn't look at him, needed to calm myself. Asked for space. This morning was better, we are talking again. But there was no real discussion about what happened between us. And so it seems to me that he is blaming himself, and projecting blame and anger on me.. while I am just trying to understand what happened.

I don't think he realizes the depth of his childhood scars.

In fact, for me, I think the butterflies might be misleading as they are influenced by our FOO. Butterflies might lead someone into trouble.

I agree... The guys who gave me butterflies were ... Very immature. It would have likely been more than a mild empathy impairment. One of them in particular was a high functioning alcoholic who treated me like garbage. Met my husband shortly after my last fall out with him. Got lucky I guess... Didn't expect to get married, but I did. Maybe partly in reaction to the other guy... In the end, might have saved me.

It helped to write all that. It gets hard to see my husband for who he is after the kind of fight we had. But I have to... Even though he might never be able to do the same for me... He really tries.

[Notwendy]

Like you, H chose me to compensate for his mother's lack of conversation. I had a degree in science, I had dreams, I had a career, an interest in physics, weather, politics...

I think most of his issues really stem from his relationship with his father.  From my standpoint though : he internalized his father's shame.

He projects his father's criticism and anger on me.



Very similar to my situation. Think about though, why did you choose your H? For me, it was the impression of stability. His family looked like a Norman Rockwell painting, until one looks under the rug too closely. Their issues were milder than with my mother, but still there, but covert. Maybe they weren't raging and screaming but instead, pretending all was well while being passive aggressive. I perceive FIL as leaning more towards the spectrum than narcissistic, and being verbally cruel when he was angry- possibly not being socially aware of it enough to even know the impact of his words. (vs BPD mother who knows what she is saying and intends it). However, to a child, the words have a similar impact.

I don't think he realizes the depth of his childhood scars.

Yes, H will speak of his childhood as being normal and then when he says some of the things his father said to him, I'm horrified. It was verbal abuse but my H doesn't recognize it and I think it's because he probably later sensed that his father wasn't aware of how his words impacted the family. FIL has other traits of being on the spectrum- has a strict routine and focused interests, is introverted. He's actually a kind hearted man but a young child doesn't understand that and so H was very shamed if he made any kind of mistake.

I have often felt that if I even make a suggestion to H, he hears his father instead. His reactions to even a suggestion are exaggerated. Then, matched with my fear of anyone being angry- emotionally that was hard to handle.

I think one of my strong traits is being sensitive to someone else's distress but in this situation, I had to become less reactive to my H's reactions. I noticed that his family members are- they sometimes seem to be verbally harsh with each other, then it rolls of their backs. In my home, any slight or perceived mistake would be the crime of the century to BPD mother. So here's a match point- sensitive to criticism and shamed for being who we are, as nobody is perfect. And in other generations too. I don't know for certain what happened to FIL. I know his FOO was disordered but not exactly what.

It's interesting to look at who gave us the butterflies - and I did have them for my H. I didn't date a lot of people before that but there were some recurring themes. All of them were unavailable- not ready for a commitment -but I think it was also the age- we were so young and not ready to settle down yet. There were two guys (not at the same time- relationships were several years apart) - lots of butterflies- and both of them had families where the parents were divorced- one had an alcoholic father. I think we'd have played out issues between us had these relationships gone further, and it was probably our young ages were the reason they didn't at the time. My behavior with them was very co-dependent. I was so afraid I'd mess up, or they wouldn't like me. It's obvious to me now how co-dependent I was but I didn't know any other way at the time and this influenced who was attracted to me and vice versa. It's interesting to see the similarities between the people we are/were attracted to.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Think about though, why did you choose your H? For me, it was the impression of stability. His family looked like a Norman Rockwell painting, until one looks under the rug too closely. Their issues were milder than with my mother, but still there, but covert. Maybe they weren't raging and screaming but instead, pretending all was well while being passive aggressive.

They are more covert in his family as well. And they do have a more stable look. There are passive aggressive, and I often pick up on how FIL disregards H's views and achievements. But then, it's like H is also not himself in front of his father...

Like you, we match in our strong discomfort of criticism. I worked a lot on myself though, am softer with myself than I was, and most days, I keep my criticism of him for myself. I worked a lot on myself, to accept he doesn't do things like me and to accept it. And then, when he criticizes me, I often tell him right away to let me be that I am doing enough and that if he isn't happy he can simply do it himself. It has decrease the amount of criticism between is tremendously...

Another match point is how we both weren't seen for who we were, growing up. We were both neglected, and left to wander life by ourselves. My H though, rebelled, while I passively zoned out. He got in trouble with the law, while I contemplated suicide in my basement. Like two faces of the same piece, I think I admire how he rebelled, how he acted out.. And I think part of him might admire how I seem in control, how calm I appear, despite the storm raging inside, how I was still able to finish high school and get myself to university despite the rage. His rage was stirring him toward the wrong crowds, until he decided to get in the army, which gave him the discipline he says he lacked.

Our main emotion is the same... With the enneagream, they talk about shame/fear/anger. We are both mainly angry, and we both react to anger. Like you, I had and still have to lower my reactivity to his anger.

FIL has other traits of being on the spectrum- has a strict routine and focused interests, is introverted. He's actually a kind hearted man but a young child doesn't understand that and so H was very shamed if he made any kind of mistake.

Here, FIL has narcissistic traits. And H's brother was the perfect son..calm, dependable, patient...while H was independant, a rebel... He meant well, he had a good heart, but somehow his brother is always better... Still today. Pains me, and like you, I find myself horrified to always hear about H's brother everytime I talk about my H and his achievements. They will even tell me about how his brother did this and that... I can't imagine how it was growing up like that... Always in his brothers shadow...

It's interesting to look at who gave us the butterflies - and I did have them for my H. I didn't date a lot of people before that but there were some recurring themes. All of them were unavailable- not ready for a commitment -but I think it was also the age- we were so young and not ready to settle down yet. There were two guys (not at the same time- relationships were several years apart) - lots of butterflies- and both of them had families where the parents were divorced- one had an alcoholic father. I think we'd have played out issues between us had these relationships gone further, and it was probably our young ages were the reason they didn't at the time. My behavior with them was very co-dependent. I was so afraid I'd mess up, or they wouldn't like me. It's obvious to me now how co-dependent I was but I didn't know any other way at the time and this influenced who was attracted to me and vice versa. It's interesting to see the similarities between the people we are/were attracted to.

I never was able to get in a relationship with a guy that gave me butterflies... I was promiscuous with men I didn't like. When I was really interested, with passion and infatuation, I wouldn't even try to get them.

One of them I ended up "dating" but we weren't in the same city. He ended up coming knocking at 3am in the morning, drunk... Wasn't exactly fun. He left the next day to meet his friends. My heart was completely broken. Met H shortly after.

I did talk to this other guy again... I finally told him he broke my heart. Treated me like garbage, like any other girl. He was deeply surprised, hadn't even realized I was in love with him...he said he had always thought we'd end up together, and fell off his chair when I got married shortly after that night. H saved me from entering a relationship with a guy I now believe was NPD.

Sometimes I think the nature of my trauma, both from BPD mother and self-centered father cancelled each other out. I could never bring myself to try and seduce the men I really liked, and would give myself easily to those I didn't like. I ended up hurting them, of course, I was dissatisfied...but they were all nice with me, trying to help, to please me... I would eat them alive. I had so much trauma to deal with, I was barely conscious.

... I think my H stabilized me with his anger, with his temper. And part of me knew he wouldn't take any of my sh*t like the other guys I had dated. I didn't have butterflies, but I also wasn't repulsed my him.. he is a beautiful man, and I didn't date a lot of those. I now know I was pretty, even as a teenager, always was a beautiful woman ...get I didn't eat, was so deeply uncomfortable in my skin, I could never even tried to get the men I wanted. How could I? I walked looking at the floor.

Last time I went to a restaurant with H, he looked at me walking and he said : "hey ...look up. own yourself." I still default to this feeling when I am wearing good clothes, like I don't deserve to feel pretty somehow.

H has been good for me this way... In all truth, he really did push me forward.

I wasn't codependant...I would have been codependant with the men I truly wanted. But my shame, the sexual abuse I endured, my father's narcissism... They prevented me from even trying to be with them... So I ended up the abuser of good men. This is still something I am deeply ashamed of. But one of them told me I did open his eyes on a few things, helped him in the long run...

I think... When driving the the automatic pilot, the role we take on a relationship will change a lot depending on the nature of the person we are with. Those I didn't like, I had strong BPD traits. Those I liked, I would have been more codependant. I certainly was with the guy I mentioned.

H was the exception. He opened my eyes. Took me away from FOO. Wouldn't let me blame him, would not accept my shame. He was physically attractive (still is), smart, funny.. And his temper is probably what made the relationship work.

Now his temper is what set me on edge. Funny how things can turn around over time, when we finally open our eyes to who we are, to our story.

[Notwendy]

I would only have interest if I felt "butterflies" and it wasn't very often. I didn't have any drama with the first guy I mentioned- late high school. We were too young to have drama. With the second guy ( college) I'm embarrassed at how co-dependent and people pleasing I was but this was all I knew to do. With H,- yes- neither one of us were loved for who we were. I had to work at appeasing my mother. He had to present a perfect self to avoid his father shaming him. I do think his mother loved him unconditionally. He's the golden child in the family but the GC has a lot put on them.

Sounds like your H was the scapegoat. I was too but didn't get into trouble. I was actually more afraid to misbehave or mess up beyond some usual teen age antics. One issue that leads to problems in marriage is not being authentic. I don't think either of us were entirely- due to fear.

In the push-pull, I think we try to get the "person we fell in love with" back but when there's a "false self", that "person" isn't real. When someone feels they need to be their "mask" self - they don't feel they are loved for who they are. I think both of us at first wanted the other to be like the early marriage times before all the issues but I realized that this isn't being authentic for either of us. "Co-dependent" people pleasing "me" doesn't do that much now. I also don't expect H to be the perfect person he felt he had to have. I think we are matched still but in a different ( and better ) way.

[Riv3rW0lf]

It sounds like you have a long road behind you, from codependent to your authentic self.

Thank you for this discussion. It helped me find my center in my relationship again.

I will probably lose it again, but I can find this conversation when it happens, to anchor myself back. 

In the end, H was good to me, and still is. We both aren't perfect, but like you and your H, we still match as well. Two faces of the same coin... We balance each other out.

Sometimes we reach an extreme, like two days ago. But we find our balance back, because in the end, we both are committed to our marriage, and we both want it.

Thank you again Notwendy, for sharing your story with me

[Notwendy]

One of the topics I read about concerning marriages was how some cultures arrange marriages and how our modern western culture chooses to marry for "love". If our attraction and who is attracted to us is influenced by our FOO, it makes sense we'd bring some of these dynamics into a marriage if we followed that.

One thing that made sense about the arranged version is that the two people will already have things in common, being matched culturally. They meet and talk first- about their goals and what they are looking for. If it's a match- they continue to meet. If not- they don't- with not much drama or hurt feelings as they were never close to begin with. There needs to be some attraction between them- but the "butterflies" maybe not so much.

We seem to do it backwards. We start with "butterflies" and are afraid to bring up serious topics early on when meeting someone. In this situation, we might end up with someone we have conflicts with, but don't know that until we are romantically attached and if there's a break up, it's hurtful and emotional.

But then I thought- what if a disordered family made the "match"- and then think - our FOO's influence who we choose to marry in both cases.  .

What is marriage for anyway? In my readings- I think it has several purposes- one being  a social construct for a family and raising children. I think another is growth- I don't think people should be hurtful to each other, but the challenges can be opportunities. I think we marry the  person we need in order to grow as a person.

[Riv3rW0lf]

We seem to do it backwards. We start with "butterflies" and are afraid to bring up serious topics early on when meeting someone. In this situation, we might end up with someone we have conflicts with, but don't know that until we are romantically attached and if there's a break up, it's hurtful and emotional.

But then I thought- what if a disordered family made the "match"- and then think - our FOO's influence who we choose to marry in both cases.  .

True. In our culture, we can escape marriage though. Divorce is accepted now, even celebrated. Married couples can even be scoffed at, I certainly was by some of my friends when I decided to get married. To them, marriage doesn't mean anything. To me, it meant commitment, and I always knew I needed it. I guess it all comes down to the value we put on word, on things, and on relationships.

In the end, for me, marriage has been forcing me toward growth, because it forces me to seek emotional connection in order to keep peacefully (I don't like the word "happily" anymore...) married. I want the partnership, the wisdom, or attunement? that seems to come over the years for the couples who can stick it together and keep trying together. I've had only one real example of it, from my great aunt and uncle. They loved each other so much. It wasn't passion. It was a deep understanding of things that seemed to keep them together. They were on another level. The alternative of staying in my marriage, I personally fear more than anything.

No matter how we connect at first, or who we connect with and to what level... I don't think it matters that much, as long as both are growth oriented, and willing to listen to the other, to find the common truth and to stay emotionally committed. That is maybe the biggest challenge...

Funny, I just asked my husband if he had the butterflies when we were dating. And he said yes, he experienced butterflies, passion, and all. Infatuation. While I was more on a rational level with him. There was simply no butterflies. I was at a point of my life where I remember thinking : "If I don't find someone before September, I will be a career-oriented person and never have children." I wanted a family, I wanted to settle. I was 25yo and ready. The biological clock was ticking. But I was a mess.

I was completely infatuated with someone else when I met my husband. And when the opportunity came, with H, to leave the province... I think part of me did it in reaction to the mess my life was. I figured I needed to start new. We decided to get married, so that my move would get covered by the army as well. We were 4 months into the relationship when we did. He had money (he had gone to Afghanistan, had been in the army for a while). And so I offered him to write a prenup to protect him. And he refused. He was completely in love and looking forward to settle. He didn't want to jump in with a foot out the door (his words). Looking back on it, I didn't have the butterflies, but I remember that day, that his love and complete commitment shocked me (positively). He felt safe, something I had never felt before. There wasn't butterflies, but for the first time ever, I think I experienced total trust. Real faith. He wanted me, and he saw me. I entered the union with a foot out the door, but ended up completely committed in the span of a few weeks. Like he unlocked a part of me I knew was there, but couldn't connect to by myself.

I didn't see him at first. Now I do though... But I wonder what it says about us, you know? The fact I didn't have the butterflies, while he did. I was at a point in my life where I was dissatisfied with everything anyway. I was thinking about the bottles of pills in my bathroom and bought a cat instead... I figured having something to care for would keep me around. And it did. I guess maybe my H has a bit of a savior complex. He did save me, in the end. Or I save myself. A bit of both, surely. He can be a mess, but then so am I. In the end, I do believe I found the man I was made for, and together, we did rise a lot, and our children seem healthy and sane. They are not withdrawn, they express and affirm themselves. So, we are doing something right.

But I know he was reliving something with me at first from his FOO, might be as simple as being in love with someone who isn't, I guess.

Either I got lucky, or maybe... Anyone can find this peaceful commitment, as long as they are willing to take a real, long, hard look at themselves. I can see you did too. When we find ourselves, it doesn't matter as much that the other isn't perfect... And you are right that letting go of this idea of what love should be, with the butterflies and the passion, is part of what needs to be done.

Sometimes I get dysregulated. I certainly was a few days ago. Tiredness and a fight, and I tend to split him, clearly a trauma reaction from childhood, but in the end, I am glad I can find him back, forgive, and focus on the goods we have, on our common understanding of our responsibilities. Our family comes first. He is reactive, but like your H, he also puts us first, is a present, good father, and he loves us deeply. He has traits, but not the full PD. There is no blame, no shame put on us.

What is marriage for anyway? In my readings- I think it has several purposes- one being  a social construct for a family and raising children. I think another is growth- I don't think people should be hurtful to each other, but the challenges can be opportunities. I think we marry the  person we need in order to grow as a person.

I like what Jordan Peterson says about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg8V4h25wNM

Which comes down to growth, like you said. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[Notwendy]

It's possible that not having the butterflies helped keep you from picking an abusive person.

I didn't understand all these dynamics but while I was in college, I met a woman who lived near me who was about the same age range. She had just escaped an abusive marriage where her husband was so violent she ended up in the hospital. She was pretty, smart, friendly, and guys were attracted to her- nice stable guys in graduate school. But somehow she didn't have the butterflies with them. Then she met a guy at a bar. He drank a lot, I noticed she began doing that too. So while plenty of stable men were interested in her, she chose someone similar to her ex husband. I didn't understand why but I do now.

Although it's not my culture, the idea of arranged marriage makes sense- as long as the parents doing the arranging are stable. The parents do the research of what kind of person is a good fit for their child and the two people agree to a meeting and discuss their goals. There has to be some chemistry- if there isn't- they don't continue. But I think they look for the potential for deeper love, not butterflies but the potential needs to be there.

I think that is possible what you felt. "I could grow to love this man" rather than how we feel when we first see someone we are attracted to- but we hardly know anything about that person.

I've experienced this in a different way- not a relationship way but in the workplace or other areas where my first impression of a man is that he is not attractive at all. After working with them and seeing their good qualities- maybe they are good team players, or kind to others, they don't seem unattractive any more. Now, it doesn't go further than that being that I am married and most of the time they are too but I can see how it's possible to see someone differently once you know their personal qualities. It's happened in the other way too- a person might be physically attractive but once I get to know them better- not attractive at all.

I think you did good! Butterflies might not do anything for us in the long run.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I didn't understand all these dynamics but while I was in college, I met a woman who lived near me who was about the same age range. She had just escaped an abusive marriage where her husband was so violent she ended up in the hospital. She was pretty, smart, friendly, and guys were attracted to her- nice stable guys in graduate school. But somehow she didn't have the butterflies with them. Then she met a guy at a bar. He drank a lot, I noticed she began doing that too. So while plenty of stable men were interested in her, she chose someone similar to her ex husband. I didn't understand why but I do now.

This is sad...did you keep in touch? Was she able to get out of this pattern?

When I read the main book on Schematherapy, they recommend, for highly traumatized people, to go against the butterflies. That's when it hit me that in a very twisted way, it is possible that the different abuse I suffered from both my parents somehow cancelled each other out. Like your friend, I would have ended up in a highly abusive relationship. I see that now.

I wonder if healthy people, from healthy family system, also have butterflies for healthy people?

[Notwendy]

We didn't keep in touch. I moved after graduating but already things had changed. It used to be I'd drop by and we'd hang out. I wasn't seeing anyone at the time. I found that this happened when a girl friend got interested in a guy- time with him became priority. This seemed to be a common thing with some women I knew, but to me, I didn't think it was an emotionally healthy thing to do. I wanted to keep my female friends and spend time with them.  I didn't want to make a guy the center of my attention. I think that is a sign that even though I was co-dependent, I wasn't to that extent.

What changed after marriage was when kids came along- and they became priority and at this point, my friend circle diminished.

I kept on dropping by to see my friend, but he was usually there, and he creeped me out. Red flags everywhere. I could sense overt disfunction. Wanting to hang out then seemed like I was intruding and she didn't make any effort to keep the friendship.

Do emotionally healthy people feel butterflies with other emotionally healthy people? I believe so. I also think they keep their heads on straight through them though.

[Couscous]

I am reading a book about relationship addiction that I stumbled upon at the library called Leaving the Enchanted Forest relationship, but it applies to any kind of addiction, including codependency. Women who stay in abusive relationships usually suffer from relationship addiction, and usually withdraw from their friends and focus all their energy on their love object.  

Here’s what the authors say about "butterflies":

Although we have been socialized to think of this obsession as love, in fact, the compelling allure of its spell has little to do with the depth and enduring quality of true caring. Addiction to another person is what “falling in love” feels like—it is the wild abandon of the enchanted forest. The crucial distinction between relationship addicts and other people who fall in love is that the former expect this fleeting phase of a relationship to become a Utopian endless summer that sustains forever the poetry, the ecstasy, and the feelings of merger they experience in their infatuation.

I think I could easily have ended up in an abusive relationship but I overcompensated for this tendency by becoming emotionally anorexic and only got into relationships with men I had no romantic attraction for — until I met my now H. I had major butterflies for him, but I "pre-screened" him fairly well. Of course I did ignore the red flag of his possibly being a mama’s boy, and he just told me yesterday that this might have been a deal-breaker for the woman he had dated before me…

I think if my H wasn’t so emotionally unavailable (possibly due to his enmeshment with his mother), I could easily have completely lost myself in our relationship and I could have become "addicted" to him.

That said, I’m slowly working through that book, and it has been very triggering for me. :/

[Notwendy]

One of the "Laundry List" traits of ACA is "choosing emotionally unavailable partners to meet our own abandonment needs". Clearly, our parents were emotionally unavailable to us at least part of the time. I think for my H, emotional unavailability is a part of his own family upbringing. I think this is one reason he was attracted to me- as I do show emotions.

It's interesting our expectations of relationships. I didn't expect some enmeshed utopia. I know one of my childhood ideas was wanting a normal family, but I don't think I knew what a normal family was. I just had some idea of it formed from my friends' parents and other families I observed. I did feel butterflies for H and in addition, his family fit the picture I had in my imagination. He is not a mama's boy thankfully, but his mother was emotionally stable.

One of my unspoken hopes was that maybe I'd be able to have some kind of "normal" mother-daughter relationship with her and while she was kind to me, this didn't happen.
It's not that she didn't like me- she did.  It's that in her own way, she had emotional limitations herself.

The dynamics in my marriage replicated my role in the family in that I had to over-function emotionally- make a large effort to try to emotionally connect with my H. On one hand, I think he liked that, having not had this growing up. On the other hand, I think it also made him feel smothered and so he pushed me away. Then, I tried even harder. Eventually, I just stopped. It's not my job to manage his emotions. He's more comfortable with some distance. Strangely - through doing that, I feel more comfortable with distance too. Is it possible we choose someone who is less emotionally available because it in a way, feels safer to us too?

[Riv3rW0lf]

The dynamics in my marriage replicated my role in the family in that I had to over-function emotionally- make a large effort to try to emotionally connect with my H. On one hand, I think he liked that, having not had this growing up. On the other hand, I think it also made him feel smothered and so he pushed me away. Then, I tried even harder. Eventually, I just stopped. It's not my job to manage his emotions. He's more comfortable with some distance. Strangely - through doing that, I feel more comfortable with distance too. Is it possible we choose someone who is less emotionally available because it in a way, feels safer to us too?

Mmmm... Based on my previous relationship, I also wonder if my emotional needs were not just too intense for anyone emotionally available too? Like...it would have completely recreated the dynamic, but I'd have been the abuser, expecting them to help me out figure out myself, when it isn't their work.

By being with an emotionally unavailable ish man (more that he just doesn't have the same level of empathy, and is a bit more self centered than I), he came with strong boundaries that he loved me, but I was the one that had to deal with my inner turmoils
 He never even tried to do it for me. And it made me healthier in the long run.

I think we seek to balance ourselves out.

[Couscous]

Is it possible we choose someone who is less emotionally available because it in a way, feels safer to us too?

Oh yes, totally. As a teenager I vowed that I would never allow myself to fall in love so that I would never have to go through what my mother went through when my dad left, and I was absolutely miserable in my first two relationships. After those experiences I decided that I was going to have to be willing to take a risk with my H, and he was the first physically available man (i.e., not married and/or not living in a foreign country) that I ever fell for, and I thought I was taking a HUGE leap. Little did I know just how safe I was playing it because it turned out that he was emotionally unavailable.

But to his credit he does take on board the various podcasts and relationship books I ask him to listen to and read, and even though he’s mainly trying to "please and appease me" and be a "good boy", he did tell me that these things have been making an impression on him. I think what also helps motivate him is knowing that it I will be more "in the mood" if we are more emotionally connected, especially since I am pulling back a little from caretaking him in that area. And just to be clear, I am not withholding in any way, but I have learned that it is not actually good for our relationship for me to do my wifely "duty" out of obligation.

[Notwendy]

it is not actually good for our relationship for me to do my wifely "duty" out of obligation.

  exactly. I think though that- not to stereotype but it seems to be that way- women and men are wired differently in that area. I also read something about it. Both men and women can connect sexually and emotionally but the starting point is different. With men - it's sex. For women (I know that I am like this) the emotional connection is first.

I agree that doing something you don't want to do ( whatever that is) leads to resentment.It was our MC who worked with me about saying yes when I meant no--and how not to do that. However, she made the distinction between doing something you absolutely don't want to do and doing something you don't want to do but you are willing to do it. Willing doesn't lead to that kind of resentment.

So even if H and I weren't communicating well, I didn't want to close the door to the one way he could connect. I think that would end a marriage. But in this case, the distinction between "willing" and "absolutely don't want to- saying yes when it's a no" is important.

Likewise, he has to feel safe saying "no" as well.

[Riv3rW0lf]

However, she made the distinction between doing something you absolutely don't want to do and doing something you don't want to do but you are willing to do it. Willing doesn't lead to that kind of resentment.

I agree with this.

Also that in my own relationship, it becomes a cycle. If I am never willing to be intimate with him, it becomes harder and harder to connect with him emotionally too.

Since my memory of sexual abuse came to light, I completely shut down that side of my marriage, even realized I had been hiding behind the fact I had a baby... Who wasn't really a baby anymore. But I'd hide behind that.

Our strategy now involves just laying in bed next to each other and cuddling. We always end up talking, then kissing, then because it is so slow, it gives me the time I need to warm up to him, and connect emotionally. But the need to take this time is primordial to me enjoying it and feeling safe now. They don't call it preliminary for nothing ! It's for us !

And usually, communication is a bit easier.

I am lucky though, my H is very understanding and safe. He really is a gentleman. He lets me know when he is starting to really need it, but never in a pushy, aggressive way.. more like a heads up.

I personally find that it's like the chicken and the egg at some point. I end up needing the intimacy to open his door to emotional connection too. While for me, communicating, kissing and hugging would be enough, it isn't for me. But in the end, we both need to be fulfilled to connect. That's where the willing vs absolute no is very important.