Codependent throughline

[livednlearned]

I'll be seeing my 25-year-old BPD stepdaughter next week.

I can feel myself starting to regress  

This week I threw my back out and have been waking up with what I think of as dread mares.  I wake up with a full tank of dread coursing through me and cannot fall back asleep. The intensity is disturbing.

I first started to experience this type of middle of the night dread while living with SD25, although the root of the feelings I can trace back to childhood.

When it first started happening, I went on prozac to try and dial down the intensity of the feelings, like down to regular anxiety, and that sort of helped. The dread didn't go away completely but the intensity lessened. I took up a mindfulness practice and exercised more consistently, saw a somatic experiencing therapist, made it a point to do fun things with my husband and with friends, learned to assert better boundaries and neutralized about three quarters of SD25 behaviors that were directly impacting my marriage. What really helped is that H and I moved 3000 miles away  

I feel like the dread means something, but I'm not sure what ...

In all of my relationships with severely disordered people, there is this insane normalcy in the immediate surroundings that I think might have hurt me more than the actual abuse. Does that make sense? First, I was taught to normalize it. Then I internalized how to normalize it. I might be a supreme pro at it now.

I see how I did this normalizing thing with SD25 and honestly, there have been huge benefits doing this because I was able to de-escalate drama with my husband. Many of the skills I learned here were part of that normalizing.

There's something I can't figure out, and I don't know if it has to do with codependence? I am so controlled. I hold a lot in. All of my approaches are strategic. But does this just repeat the normalizing behaviors I learned as a kid?

All I can think is that this dread is coming out at night because I keep it in during the day. Not just keep it from H, but keep it from myself.

Last night, I tried to tolerate the dread, which isn't easy -- it's a horrible physical feeling. I tried to let myself feel how I really feel, between me and myself, because the feelings are not easy to admit. I despise my stepdaughter. I don't think it's codependence to behave as though we are ok -- if we all revealed our true feelings, there would be chaos, no?

I guess I'm learning that there is a price to this normalization I've learned to do, but I don't know what the alternative is.

Does any of this make sense? Maybe my disordered family members operate with a high degree of covertness. I don't know if that makes a difference.

[Couscous]

Does she remind you of one of your parents?

[livednlearned]

She’s a combo package for me. Waifish like my mom, neediness with aggression and relentlessness like my BPD brother. My whole childhood felt like he was trying to annihilate me. She is socially awkward like my father.

I don’t fear her like I did my brother.

I see the through line to FOO, but I don’t understand why the intensity. I can only think it has to do with editing m feelings, constantly, to keep peace. A lot of the skills discussed here have a peace keeping element to them.

[kells76]

I am not sure how to phrase this vibe, so seeif this is close. I wonder if the intensity is somehow connected with -- "managing" her/around her is a... price ? you pay to be in your marriage? Like, the stakes of loss (a desired marriage relationship) are higher? Again, not sure how to phrase it, but if you see the connection to FOO but the issue isn't FOO, I just wonder if the dread is partly related to the toll she has had on and the intrusion she has had in your marriage. Just brainstorming.

[Notwendy]

LnL- I don't have an explanation but I can relate. I feel the same way when I am about to see BPD mother. I also have trouble sleeping for a couple weeks after that. Even if things go reasonably well during the visit, emotionally it's hard to deal with.

We kids grew up afraid of my mother. Even though logically she isn't a physical danger to me now, she's still emotionally and verbally abusive. Fear and dread are part of how I feel when I am around her.

I hold back as well- and control my behavior,  because in a short visit- it's best to just do that. Also because it's not appropriate behavior and it does no good to do otherwise. Normalizing is a part of how our family functioned- in fact "normalizing" BPD mother was a main rule. I understand it feels like participating in a lie. That "front" feels inauthentic though. It is a bit co-dependent but on the other hand, for a family event like a wedding weekend or reunion, what's the point of doing anything else- as it would just be some kind of scene.

I have experienced where someone else can remind me of my mother and I have a similar reaction. Once a parking lot attendant yelled at me to move my car. I moved it and sat in the car for about 10 minutes feeling fearful before I could get out of the car. I was aware that this fear reaction was out of proportion. Someone else might have brushed it off thinking "she's having a bad day" but I sat there over analyzing what I did wrong, why did she yell at me- all the while knowing it was just a crowded lot with lots of cars and she probably was having a bad day with it.

With you though, I think it's also dreading the act you have to put on to avoid conflict with your SD and your H and seeing the Daddy's girl dynamics.

[I Am Redeemed]

For me, I still dread situations where I have to set boundaries or manage interactions with my disordered sister or ubpdxh. It's tied to feeling powerless and "on my guard", but a lot of it I think is resentment that it takes so much to manage even low contact interactions.

I've had disordered people around me my whole life, and sometimes I just want to scream "give me a break, already!"

Maybe your dread is tied to resentment of having to manage yet another disordered relationship and/or not expressing freely how much it affects you? Not being able to say "you know what, I really can't stand being around this person and I'm sick of having to deal with it for the sake of others?"

It seems that you have experienced disordered people in your FOO, in your last marriage, and now in your blended family with your current marriage. Maybe there's some resentment there of expectations - the expectation of, not necessarily pretending that a disordered family member is"normal ", but an expectation of acceptingthe disordered family member. "This is SD and this is how she is, being part of this family means dealing with her".

[GaGrl]

The phrase that stands out to me is that your brother "spent childhood trying to annihilate" you. If your stepdaughter causes the same feelings to arise, no wonder you are having feelings of dread -- you are feeling that your very being is at risk.

I don't think this is something you can minimize and hold in.

[Mommydoc]

Many of the skills I learned here are normalizing. I am so controlled. I hold a lot in. All of my approaches are strategic. But does this just repeat the normalizing behaviors I learned as a kid? All I can think is that this dread is coming out at night because I keep it in during the day. Not just keep it from H, but keep it from myself.

I can relate. I agree that though very effective, many of the tools we learn here, require us to tightly control/manage our emotions, and perhaps if over used, might lead to not only “covering” but ultimately to repressing toxic emotions. You seem to be implying that “the dread coming out at night” might reflect your suppressing/repressing some emotions you aren’t comfortable sharing with your husband or even acknowledging yourself.

I had a bad week (separate thread)and had a similar experience yesterday. I wouldn’t call it dread, but it was like a heaviness I couldn’t shake, that was weighing me down and keeping me from being me, and interacting normally. The only time I shook it was when I did an intense workout, but it came back immediately. At first, I just wanted relief, to expel the feelings, kind of like when you have nausea and you think vomiting will make you feel better. I told my husband, maybe I should just go cry in the sauna, to sweat/cry it out, but I  realized, that this couldn’t be “sweated out”… what needed to be released was all the repressed emotions. For me, it was anger.

You mention the normalizing behaviors we each learned during childhood, that may not be serving us well now.  That is definitely true for me. Because of my fathers rage, I never learned to constructively acknowledge my own anger and have a tendency to repress it. My sisters anger comes at me and I have learned how not to react to it. The intensity of using all the tools  to manage our responses to our pwBPD carries the the risk of unconsciously avoiding own, legitimate  negative feelings, particularly when they threaten our self-image. And when we repress those feelings, they have to “come out”. I am trying to recognize my anger as a legitimate emotion and express it in constructive ways (not directly at my sister). My husband is relieved.

Last night, I picked back up Kristen Neff’s book on the yin and yang of self compassion. Her earlier, more recognized work on self compassion focuses on cultivating a nurturing mindful  self connected presence, ie treating our self with the empathy and kindness we extend to others. It helped me tremendously and I read and have cried through her first book many times. In this book on yin and Yang, she refers to the prior work as the yin of self compassion and offers that it needs to be balanced with “yang” self compassion, which has three components: protecting (being able to set boundaries/ say no when something is not OK), providing ( getting your needs met so that you can also provide/ meet others needs and understanding they need to be balanced), and motivating (taking actions to meet your goals, accepting your imperfections, but being willing to strive to be a better version of yourself). She makes the analogies of Yin being like rocking a baby and yang like a mama bear protecting its cubs. Her major point is they all have to be balanced.

It occurred to me in reading your post LNL, that perhaps we are both out of balance. I am not sure if you relate to this. We are probably self managing in the moment, and dealing effectively with challenging circumstances, but it’s throwing us out of balance. Our bodies bodies are paying the price for the repressed emotions. I have worked hard on the yin side of self compassion, but never gave myself permission to practice the yang side as she describes it. Obtaining  a lawyer to protect myself and my mother, setting boundaries and even setting a deadline for my sister all are part of “protecting”, but they are extremely uncomfortable and un-natural to me. I need to focus more on the “providing” part also. Getting my needs met so I can meet my needs, and prioritizing them over placating my sister and keeping peace. I have clarity on my goals and am taking definitive actions to achieve them. You may not relate to this at all, but your thread helped me connect the dots between the book and what I am experiencing.  I am beginning to realize where I need to go (NC). I am also feeling comfortable being uncomfortable with negative emotions and allowing yang self compassion.

The heaviness I felt was anger. LNL, do you feel there is an imbalance between managing your SD/husband relationship and getting your own needs met? Are you able to identify the feeling or emotion that is presenting itself as dread? Is it an emotion you can safely confront or surface? Are there additional boundaries you need to set or actions you need to take to protect yourself or meet your needs?  Are you OK with expressing your needs.  Do you need to offer yourself self compassion, and if so, is it the yin or the yang component? Kristen Neff’s website is fantastic and if you don’t have time for her book, she has a lot of quick videos online. I am still reading the book, and it is helping me. 

Thanks for sharing your experience and helping me learn. Good luck.

[Notwendy]

I consider the tools here as just that. Use them if we feel the need to but in combination with knowing what we are doing- that is- stay in touch with the feelings we have.

To me the feeling of holding back anger is due to the futility of expressing it to BPD mother. In a mutual relationship if one person is angry over something the other person did, and says something- there's hope in that. Hope that the other person cares enough to stop doing what they did. In a good relationship, these things are usually minor "Hey please put my car keys back, I can't find them" type things.

With BPD mother, a statement like that would lead to a huge blow up. It's futile to express any anger or even irritation like that because it bounces right off her. She dissociates and then rages. There's no learning on her part and there's no resolution.
When I give a neutral response even if I am angry, it's not all holding back or keeping the peace. It's that it seems useless. If I am invested enough to express anger at someone, it's actually with hope we can do better. If someone were to express anger at me, I'd apologize.

Often relationship drama involves two people. The tools for me are a form of "pause and think" before reacting so that my contribution to the drama is decreased. Often two people are in a relationship pattern. We can't change the other person- so we work on our part. In some situations, perhaps changing these patterns makes the relationship more workable, but some relationships may not be workable. I think most people want to try to see if it is first before deciding it isn't.

It's tough when the person we don't want to deal with is connected to someone we care about. I think in this situation resentment becomes a strong feeling because it seems there's not a lot of choices about avoiding them.

[Manic Miner]

I've had disordered people around me my whole life, and sometimes I just want to scream "give me a break, already!"

Maybe your dread is tied to resentment of having to manage yet another disordered relationship and/or not expressing freely how much it affects you? Not being able to say "you know what, I really can't stand being around this person and I'm sick of having to deal with it for the sake of others?"

Yeah, exactly this. I can relate so much. And by "disordered" I even consider people that are healthy in many ways, but have some toxic traits that affect people around them and just make them inapproachable in the long run.

I cannot even count how many times I was on and off with my cousin, trying to have some nice brother-sister relationship. She has so many great traits, good values but her dark side just drives me nuts. From a nice, caring individual, she can flip in an instant and just ignore my messages, or lie about whereabouts and intentions, hiding true reasons, whatever they are. If this happened few times, I wouldn't have noticed it, but it's her lifestyle.
Is she disordered? In my book, yes, she is, even though I'm not sure it's anything official or pathological. But it's enough that we cannot form a healthy bond based on trust.

[Methuen]

To me the feeling of holding back anger is due to the futility of expressing it to BPD mother. In a mutual relationship if one person is angry over something the other person did, and says something- there's hope in that. Hope that the other person cares enough to stop doing what they did. In a good relationship, these things are usually minor "Hey please put my car keys back, I can't find them" type things.

This. This This.  Thanks for connecting the dots.  It’s the futility.

[livednlearned]

I'm so grateful for all of you.  

Your answers are so helpful and insightful and compassionate. I've read them each multiple times and I feel more clarity even if this will remain an ongoing work-in-progress. I probably need to accept this will be a work-in-progress even if I've managed to come a long way.

if you see the connection to FOO but the issue isn't FOO, I just wonder if the dread is partly related to the toll she has had on and the intrusion she has had in your marriage.

@kells76    you've really been there for me through the tornado of SD25. What you're suggesting makes a lot of sense. It feels like SD25 is in a fight to the death with me over H, even though it's probably just another way for her to test her worth against something or someone. I am simply collateral.

While it can feel ridiculous at times, if I don't take it seriously I get run over. I don't know if you remember when I wrote about SD25 repeatedly coming into my bedroom when she lived with us? And into my bathroom  

One night, I was cleaning up after a party and walked by my bedroom door and she was in my bed trying to get our dog to come cuddle with her. This is after first politely then firmly telling her my room was off limits, and saying the same to H. That night, H was in the bedroom with SD25, and he wasn't telling her to leave, which made me feel fury. I felt betrayed. I remember feeling red hot rage.

The intensity of emotion definitely went back to FOO, linked to an out-of-control uBPD sibling running our home, with me having no power, including having no privacy in my bedroom or bathroom. I remember begging for a lock and my father saying, "That's only going to enrage him further." That same childhood feeling is mixed in with this dread I feel. Like a mixture of fury and fear and disappointment, and desperation. Rage and powerlessness.

There's a direct connection emotionally to FOO that can explain some of the intensity. But you make me wonder, would I feel this way if H took it upon himself to have the necessary emotional backbone? I don't know. That could be part of the dread -- not feeling safe.

Yet, adult me knows I'm safe. I've been effective. We will be renting two separate condos, so not only is there a figurative lock on the door, there's a literal one, too. It's weird to me that these emotions are so intense.

Normalizing is a part of how our family functioned- in fact "normalizing" BPD mother was a main rule. I understand it feels like participating in a lie. That "front" feels inauthentic though. It is a bit co-dependent

I guess the question is: when is normalizing healthy, and when does it become codependence? And what price is paid? It's so hard for me to express anger, and there are emotions I know I've paved over. During my initial somatic experiencing therapy visits, I was so emotional after the sessions it took 30 minutes to feel like I could safely drive. It feels like a lot of emotion is stored in me, physically, from holding so much in. Is participating in the lie necessary to minimize the conflict in order to maintain contact?

With you though, I think it's also dreading the act you have to put on to avoid conflict with your SD and your H and seeing the Daddy's girl dynamics.

This is also true. And oddly, the more I contain my feelings and thoughts and opinions, the more H expresses his. He has thrown his phone getting pushed to the limit with SD25 -- there's a lot of anger and frustration towards SD25. Like me, he has PDs in his FOO, married/divorced someone with BPD, and now has SD25. She is also very socially awkward, so that doesn't help. Even without BPD it would probably be taxing.

Maybe your dread is tied to resentment of having to manage yet another disordered relationship and/or not expressing freely how much it affects you?

You couldn't be more right, @IAR. I went through a grieving period when I realized I was on yet another BPD merry go round. I guess I'm surprised at the intensity of these feelings after 10 years, especially with things feeling manageable overall. It has been so much worse. It makes me wonder if the feelings will ever go away?

The phrase that stands out to me is that your brother "spent childhood trying to annihilate" you. If your stepdaughter causes the same feelings to arise, no wonder you are having feelings of dread -- you are feeling that your very being is at risk.

Some of the panic I'm feeling comes from thinking this will likely not change. Even if SD25 isn't violent, she is aggressive. I've neutralized a lot of her behaviors but I can't seem to get my body to recognize that she isn't the same kind of threat as a violent sibling. We live somewhere she would almost certainly never live -- that is something H wanted. He joked about it, but it's no joke.

I agree that though very effective, many of the tools we learn here, require us to tightly control/manage our emotions, and perhaps if over used, might lead to not only “covering” but ultimately to repressing toxic emotions.

You make me realize how managing the situation (with skills) does sort of "re-parent" things in a way, at least better than my actual parents did. But some of the control/manage pieces are not so different than what I did in my FOO, and in my BPD marriage. So many things uBPD brother did were insane, but my parents would never use that word. The phrase "reality-based psychosis" explains things so well, but in my family we ignored and minimized. Being the family scapegoat meant experiencing the double whammy of violence and then participating in the collective insanity that nothing out of the ordinary was happening.

Because of my fathers rage, I never learned to constructively acknowledge my own anger and have a tendency to repress it. My sisters anger comes at me and I have learned how not to react to it. The intensity of using all the tools  to manage our responses to our pwBPD carries the the risk of unconsciously avoiding own, legitimate  negative feelings, particularly when they threaten our self-image. And when we repress those feelings, they have to “come out”.

Wow, this describes it so well. It brought tears to read this, Mommydoc. Especially the part about threatening our self-image. I can really box myself in with this self-image 

I am trying to recognize my anger as a legitimate emotion and express it in constructive ways (not directly at my sister). My husband is relieved.

That is probably the source of much of my frustration. I love H, and our marriage is strong. But I can't express to him how I truly feel when it comes to SD25. We both have sons on the spectrum and there is a bond there, and trust. We validate each other. He is a saint when it comes to my son (21). When it comes to SD25, the closest I have come to expressing how I feel is to say, "We don't have to all get along; we just have to make it work."

It occurred to me in reading your post LNL, that perhaps we are both out of balance. I am not sure if you relate to this. We are probably self managing in the moment, and dealing effectively with challenging circumstances, but it’s throwing us out of balance. Our bodies bodies are paying the price for the repressed emotions.

I absolutely can relate. I'm inspired to read these books -- I feel like I've been missing a big piece and this may help. Thank you  

The heaviness I felt was anger. LNL, do you feel there is an imbalance between managing your SD/husband relationship and getting your own needs met? Are you able to identify the feeling or emotion that is presenting itself as dread? Is it an emotion you can safely confront or surface? Are there additional boundaries you need to set or actions you need to take to protect yourself or meet your needs?

These are good questions. I definitely detect rage in the dread. It so quickly turns to something else, though. Anger is a hot potato emotion for me. I go quickly to control, with a truck load of anxiety to try and fix the problem.

But when it comes to an imbalance between managing SD/husband relationship and my needs, I'm not sure...friends here have been amazing at helping me assert boundaries. Maybe I don't know what other needs there are? When H wanted to have his kids stay in a house with us, I tended to my needs (e.g. absolute minimum amount of time with SD25, separate rentals), but I did not express how I truly felt. It's a delicate balance. There is also a lot of respect there.

In some situations, perhaps changing these patterns makes the relationship more workable, but some relationships may not be workable.

I think that's where I'm at. The relationship is more workable but perhaps at my expense, which feels similar to where I've been before. Even though it's an improvement over all, I'm still the one who is trying to make it work.

[Couscous]

LNL,

A few of us have figured out over in the thread about daddy’s girls that we were victims of covert incest by our fathers. It sounds like this may be what’s going on with your H and and SD and if so then it’s understandable that this visit is triggering a lot of emotions in you.

Even as a young child I was well aware of the fact that my father has always put us kids before my step-mother — something he actually confirmed in a comment to me a couple of months ago when he said that “step-mother knows that she comes last”, as if that was just how it was supposed to be.

[Notwendy]

I guess the question is: when is normalizing healthy, and when does it become codependence? And what price is paid?

Is participating in the lie necessary to minimize the conflict in order to maintain contact?

I am not sure I know the exact answer to the first question exactly- I think it depends on the situation and what the motive is- is it fear or choice? It's not completely honest for sure, but in many social situations we aren't entirely honest all the time. We wouldn't go up to our boss and tell her her dress is ugly, even if we think it it, but perhaps we also wouldn't tell her how nice it looks either. We keep a sense of formality.

The same action can be co-dependent or not. If I do something out of fear, it's co-dependent. If it's by choice, or even willingness, it may not be. If it's done to control the other person, that's co-dependent.

Children don't have the ability to make choices. Normalizing BPD mother wasn't something we even questioned as kids. It wasn't co-dependent behavior. It was the family rule.

I don't normalize her now but I also avoid conflict with her to the extent it doesn't violate a big boundary for me. I don't like being manipulated but if it is to do things that I am willing to do anyway, I don't make a big deal about it. For instance, if it is doing something for her- like an errand when I am there, well, I'd do it anyway. Social manipulations, I refuse or sometimes ignore- sometimes she'll say " so and so would love it if you called them" and I know she's made that up and is trying to socially manipulate something. So I'll say "thanks for letting me know" and don't act on it.

I don't think I am not expressing anger at her from a place of fear or co-dependency but again as it's futile. She'll just dissociate and give it all back. I am not afraid of that, it's just not worth it. But if I am feeling angry or resentful- I pay attention to that. It means I need some time to myself- away from her- when I visit. I don't stay with her when I do so I can have that space to myself.

Do we have to do this to maintain contact? I think it's a choice. If we don't, it will likely be a very unpleasant time of contact. We can choose that if we want to. Personally, I'd rather not deal with that because no good that I can see will come out of it. I did once let the anger out. Dad was in his last days and I had lost patience with BPD mother and yelled at her. It felt good in the moment to let all that anger out at her. All it did was put her in victim mode and she projected it back and for me, the sum of it wasn't worth it. So now, I try to stay mindful of my own feelings. It was a stressful time. The "HALT" - hungry, angry, lonely, tired reminder of when we need to take care of ourselves helps to keep out of these situations.

The reason we have these situations to deal with is when someone we care about is in a strong attachment relationship with a disordered person, or when we are. Even if the relationship is difficult, it's my mother. If she were an acquaintance, it would probably be different. Still, I have the choice to try to make it work or not. In addition, my father was in a significant relationship with her and I was attached to him so there is that connection as well.

Truly, if your H was not connected to your SD, you'd have nothing to do with her. I think it's understandable that a parent would feel a strong connection to their child, even if that child is disordered. You don't feel that connection but you care about your H. You actually are not tolerating your SD for her- but for him. Yet, the price you feel is anger and resentment. This is a clue that your behavior is co-dependent but possibly more with him than with her. Your resentment is his putting you in situations where you feel compromised.

I think the issue here is that he decided to share a house with her. That changes the whole weekend for you. You may have tolerated this if you had your own place and she had hers. I know it makes a difference to not stay with my mother when I visit or in family events. I choose to stay as calm as possible during visits and family events. There are times where you will see your SD- but staying with her 24/7 may be too much.

It's probably last minute for this weekend, but being honest with your H about future get togethers may be the next step for you. Make it about you - not her. Tell him it's better for you if you don't share a living space next time.

[Mommydoc]

Anger is a hot potato emotion for me. I go quickly to control, with a truck load of anxiety to try and fix the problem.

I think I am the same, I try to “manage” anger. ( which may mean suppressing) and/or manage the person who is making me angry (particularly with my sister wBPD). I think I do that out of fear of not being able to control the anger.  Perhaps because of the dysfunctional patterns of my FOO, or perhaps because I have learned that expressing anger towards her is not worth the price as NotWendy says. But we have to remember that is a choice we are making.

In Brene Brown’s Atlas of Emotions, she talks about anger as being a secondary emotion and the need to look deeper for the possible underlying primary emotion, which I struggle with, but I am trying to explore. She also talks about Anger as a catalyst, which I particularly like.

Anger is a catalyst. Holding on to it will make us exhausted and sick. Internalizing anger will take away our joy and spirit; externalizing anger will make us less effective in our attempts to create change and forge connection. It’s an emotion that we need to transform into something life-giving: courage, love, change, compassion, justice.

I don't think I am not expressing anger at her from a place of fear or co-dependency but again as it's futile. She'll just dissociate and give it all back. I am not afraid of that, it's just not worth it. But if I am feeling angry or resentful- I pay attention to that. It means I need some time to myself- away from her- when I visit. I don't stay with her when I do so I can have that space to myself.

Do we have to do this to maintain contact? I think it's a choice. If we don't, it will likely be a very unpleasant time of contact. We can choose that if we want to. Personally, I'd rather not deal with that because no good that I can see will come out of it. I did once let the anger out. Dad was in his last days and I had lost patience with BPD mother and yelled at her. It felt good in the moment to let all that anger out at her. All it did was put her in victim mode and she projected it back and for me, the sum of it wasn't worth it. So now I try to stay mindful of my own feelings.

Thank you NotWendy. This is a great self reflection. It is always important to be mindful of our own feelings, and recognize even when we may feel “boxed in” that we always have choices. When we choose not to express anger towards our pwBPD, we are choosing that. We also have the choice to utilize that anger in a positive way, as a “catalyst” to assure we meet our own needs.

When H wanted to have his kids stay in a house with us, I tended to my needs (e.g. absolute minimum amount of time with SD25, separate rentals), but I did not express how I truly felt. It's a delicate balance. There is also a lot of respect there.

I applaud you for paying attention to your own needs. It made me recall an incident with my sister that occurred over 20 years ago. While visiting her home with my young children, she got angry over a ridiculous thing. Her reactions put myself and my kids at risk and I felt unsafe being in her home. I contemplated going to a hotel that night, but my husband was arriving the next day and he talked me out of it. Though I was angry briefly, the anger became constructive. My husband I decided from that point on, that we would never stay in her home as a guest, and when on trips with her family, we would always get our own place. When I reflect on that event, I think of it in a positive way, in that it reflects me taking an action/setting a necessary boundary that has allowed me to feel safe while still being able to take trips with her and her family.

LNL, your love and respect for your husband is  evident. I understand that at times this topic and how you feel about it is almost too sensitive to raise, but I can’t help but wonder if a trusted therapist might help you navigate the conversation in a safe way. It might help both of you individually and as a couple with a healthy path forward. Before getting engaged, I was once in an uncomfortable triangle with my husbands best friend (wNPD), and also felt I couldn’t safely surface it. We eventually did so with the help of a couples therapist and it made a huge positive difference in our relationship. It turns out my husband was carrying a lot of guilt around how his friend was treating me, but didn’t know how to deal with it. I wasn’t asking him to reject his friend but rather to validate me. Just a thought. 

[livednlearned]

we were victims of covert incest by our fathers. It sounds like this may be what’s going on with your H and and SD

When I first met H, I wondered if this were going on. It doesn't quite fit, though. H and I did sessions with both a therapist and a child psychologist and they seemed focused on a different dynamic, but maybe they were just moving us away from labels, idk. H doesn't seem to seek emotional support from SD25, but maybe he did before we met. It's hard to imagine, though. She's had ongoing psychiatric issues for 10 years and isn't stable. Whereas it's very clear the degree of emotional incest between BPD bio mom and SD25.

[livednlearned]

You actually are not tolerating your SD for her- but for him. Yet, the price you feel is anger and resentment. This is a clue that your behavior is co-dependent but possibly more with him than with her. Your resentment is his putting you in situations where you feel compromised.

I did feel this way when we first set things up, but I managed to find two condos next to each other. We won't be sharing a living space. However, I probably skipped right over the actual feelings and went right to solving the problem. This is definitely a pattern for me.

And it makes me realize why I'm so angry/dready. It's the assumption that our experience living with SD25 was anything but normal. If H said to me, "Let's figure a way to visit with SD25 that isn't stressful for us" I would probably feel different because we would be working from reality.

Tell him it's better for you if you don't share a living space next time.

This is probably where I was coming from a codependent place. It's odd that we acknowledge this when it comes to visiting my parents and his, but when it comes to SD25 I walk on eggshells.

[livednlearned]

It turns out my husband was carrying a lot of guilt around how his friend was treating me, but didn’t know how to deal with it. I wasn’t asking him to reject his friend but rather to validate me.

More to reflect on, but I wanted to say how much this resonates with me. Like me, H didn't know how to deal with BPD. I have had more therapy and read more, practiced more, jumped into the super deep end. He trusts my lead and I trust that we want the same thing. I don't know what this particular episode means, but it definitely means something. It could be as simple as not making a big deal out of things after such a long period of calm. We're both in a great place so it almost feels like making a mountain out of a molehill. I may be minimizing my own feelings 

[livednlearned]

This thread is making it more and more clear that the core stuff is 1. normalizing 2. the relentless aggression of 3. a disordered family member and 4. feeling unprotected.

Not feeling unsafe -- I seem able to take care of that.

It's the anger of the whole dynamic repeating.

If we did not normalize the behaviors or the strain of dealing with them, I don't know that the feelings of betrayal, the feelings of not being protected would be so strong.

Which means saying the truth: I am fine with these visits -- they're important. They are hard for me and I require physical space. When we do this, we stay in separate units so I can be at my best.

I didn't say that this time, I just handled it.

The downside is that SD25 will likely visit us at our home at some point and it's not as easy to say nope. She can't stay here.

Especially with my son living with us rent free.

[Couscous]

Another angle is to try to figure out is who it is you are really angry at. For example, in my case I had a lot of anger that I was feeling toward my MIL until I realized that I was really angry at my H for his being enmeshed with her, allowing her to intrude into our marriage and his failure to protect me from her emotional outbursts directed at me.

Although I can see how my anger was probably a secondary emotion since I wasn’t reacting to real and present danger, I also think that perhaps some of my anger was appropriate, because when I married my husband I didn’t sign up to be “the other woman”. In a way it’s like there’d been a breach of contract so I think that anger is actually the appropriate response as it motivated me to take action, which in my case consisted of me telling my husband that I am no longer willing to spend extended periods of time in his mother’s presence and our visits will need to reduced in duration, all contact would need to take place in public places, he is not to leave me unattended with her, and if tensions begin to rise, I will take the kids and exit the scene, with or without him. But it I took me 8 years of tolerating my one-down position before I finally became empowered enough to stop waiting for him to step up to the plate and decide that I was going to have do what I needed to do to take care of myself.

[Couscous]

The downside is that SD25 will likely visit us at our home at some point and it's not as easy to say nope. She can't stay here.

Yes, it’s very a scary thing to say no when this was against the rules and essentially a crime in our FOO.

But you don’t have to navigate this alone. A family therapist will be able to help you and H set appropriate boundaries with SD. It wouldn’t even take many sessions. Since your H has been getting frustrated with her he may even welcome the opportunity to do so. 

[Riv3rW0lf]

Another angle is to try to figure out is who it is you are really angry at. For example, in my case I had a lot of anger that I was feeling toward my MIL until I realized that I was really angry at my H for his being enmeshed with her, allowing her to intrude into our marriage and his failure to protect me from her emotional outbursts directed at me.

Hi LnL, so many great insights here. I don't have much to add but wanted to extend some support.

Like Couscous, this is also what I wondered.

I have a tendency to misplace my anger, because I never learned how to express it healthily, nor to recognize it and the feelings my anger was sometimes hiding.

The story about her in your bed, in your room, and your husband saying nothing speaks volume to me... In this scenario, considering she is disordered, I would have felt deeply abandoned by my husband. I don't know if this is what you went through or not, but based on my experience, anger would have come in to hide the abandonment feeling, and the pain and hurt to realize my husband didn't seem to "care" either about my boundaries.

Is your husband scared of her? That she might self-harm to the point of no return?

You are doing amazing in upholding your own boundaries and communicating your needs. However, reading all of this, I can't help but see that husband is having a very hard time doing the same. It is not easy. It is his daughter and I understand your dread. So anyway... Another idea here... Anger hiding the triggering of the abandonment you suffered as a child, and are reliving constantly in this triangulation.

Not an easy situation to be in... In the end, you have no control over your husband and how he is dealing with his daughter, which seems to often include ignoring your needs and limits. And I also understand you not wanting to put him in front of an ultimatum. In the end though, my therapist would say the anger needs to be directed at the proper place...so is it FOO or husband? I have a hunch that SD, despite all appearances, is not the one you are angry at...you understand her disease too much and do not have enough proximity to her. Just a hunch though, might be off.

[Couscous]

LNL, I’m thinking that the book by Harriet Lerner, The Dance of Anger, might help you gain some clarity about this situation. It’s actually one of the most impactful books that I have read that has helped me make sense of the dynamics in my family, and I find myself re-reading parts of it on practically a weekly basis. 

[livednlearned]

@Couscous, it's definitely anger at H.

The intensity of the anger is amplified by FOO.

It's interesting, though. I see something I didn't notice before.

I kind of neuter my own anger, if that makes sense. For example, @Riv3rw0lf, I did direct anger at H during the bedroom incident. It was so uncharacteristically out of control, zero to 10, and really caught me by surprise. I felt the feelings and then almost immediately went into editing mode. Not that that was bad, because I managed to identify the origin of why I felt so intensely and could tell him, and he could listen. We went from having a potential fight to feeling close and intimate, with him comforting me.

However, this thread is helping me realize that I walked it back pretty quickly by pointing out how the actions triggered FOO stuff. As though FOO stuff was 100 percent responsible for the blow up.

What I didn't say was, "This is unacceptable for SD25 to be in here -- I've told both of you. It's inappropriate and unhealthy." I also didn't say, "We agreed this behavior has to stop. When you allow it to happen it hurts me, and I'm angry at you for letting it continue."

Anger hiding the triggering of the abandonment you suffered as a child, and are reliving constantly in this triangulation.

This really knocked me over. It was much, much worse before we worked through a lot but you're right, it is still a dynamic running in the undercurrents.

One thing that is challenging for me is that H is so wonderful with my neurodiverse son. I have so much gratitude for H's patience and tolerance, how supportive he is of me. I do feel we hold each other up with our challenging children, and I would be surprised if H did not feel some resentment and anger about being the so-called outsider to an LnL-S21 dynamic.

@Couscous, I'm glad you reminded me of Harriet Lerner. I read all of her books, I was so hungry to make sense of the triangulation dynamics, and what I learned there has been essential in my recovery from unhealthy habits.

This is such a subtle nuance I'm having a hard time articulating it, but removing myself from the drama triangles seems to have also meant removing myself from having strong emotions about the triangles.

[Couscous]

I would be surprised if H did not feel some resentment and anger about being the so-called outsider to an LnL-S21 dynamic.

If you suspect that this is something that might be a problem then it would be worth exploring this in family therapy. If your H sees that you are at least willing to examine whether or not you may need to do a bit of cleaning up your side of the street, so to speak, he will then not be able to use your relationship with your  son as an excuse to avoid looking at his relationship with his daughter.  

[I Am Redeemed]

I'm hearing that you feel guilty because H has embraced your son, who has his own challenges, while you cannot do the same with SD25.

Your son and SD25 are two different people with different diagnoses. It's obvious that sd25 presents way more challenging behavior, for both H and you.

I also hear you saying that it would help you if there were more of a sense of teamwork between you and H, an acknowledgement of how the situation is difficult and an invitation to game plan together.

Does it feel like H treats the SD25 thing as the "elephant in the room"?

[livednlearned]

The trip went well enough and I learned something.

Part of what winds me up with these visits seems to be the three-person dynamic with H, me, and SD25. It could be that 3 is the magic number for tripping my triggers from my own FOO, driven by SD25's near constant triangulating maneuvers.

I was the left-out child in my FOO. There is a chosen child/left-out dynamic that gets switched on when SD25 is around.

But this trip was different.

SS23 was there, and we connect easily. 

This was frustrating for SD25. She seemed at a loss how to exclude me when there were 2 people (SS23 and H) instead of 1 (just H).

When it was just three of us: SD25/SS23/me, then SD25 would try to get a conversation going with SS23 in Spanish, which I don't speak. SS23 would have none of it.

I really think it's this triangulation dynamic that makes me feel like my body is preparing for war.

I know SD25 is difficult, but she isn't dangerous like my BPD sibling and BPDx husband. We don't see her often, H has learned new skills, I've been successful with new skills, other family members are enforcing boundaries with SD25 (including SS23).

Her level of difficulty just doesn't warrant the type of response I have to her.

It really feels like this is some kind of FOO survival mechanism -- competing for scarce resources -- that is driving the physiology of how I respond to her.

[Riv3rW0lf]

It really feels like this is some kind of FOO survival mechanism -- competing for scarce resources -- that is driving the physiology of how I respond to her.

This is actually something that helped me come to peace with my decision to go no contact with my BPD mother... The fact that what I have is not something that will ever go away. I am now convinced that C-PTSD is a chronic condition that can be managed, but triggers will lead to very real, physical reactions that can feel overwhelming.  We only get better in managing our response to it, and in coming back to our ground zero because we develop tools and the know-how.

I was discussing with my cousin who works with Army veteran, and she found it very helpful to hear this point of view. That the condition is not just mental but physical. THE BODY KEEPS THE SCORE was a real eye opener for me, and I gave her the reference for her work...

But I don't think those physical reaction are ever going away. However, since we are now aware of them, since we know, we can get better in managing our response and to keep ourselves away from the triggers.

In my case, it meant going no contact with my mother, at least for now, because I still don't feel strong enough to manage the physical reactions of absolute fear and anxiety I get from her presence. Maybe someday I will.

Because of your situation, I don't see your being able to cut contact with your SD either... How do you feel now? Does the sensation linger, or do you at least get back on your feet within a reasonable timeline?

[beatricex]

hi LivednLearned,
Your post resonates with me.  Every single word.  I think I have a very similar situation to yours, I have an adult stepdaughter who rumaged through my bathroom when she came over, then proudly proclaimed that she did so.

I also felt the nighttime dread.  Weirdly I too went to my doc and complained of insomnia and anxiety.  She prescribed trazadone, which I only take as needed.  It seems to have very little side effects, I only take half or 3/4 of the pill, and I sleep like a baby.

I too have the disordered FOO and have had many many conversations with my husband about how his daughter triggers me - it all feels like my BPD mom, and sisters who enabled her, all over again.

I mostly believe today that if he had continued a relationship with his daughter who I suspect has BPD that it could be considered a trauma bond.  There really is no other explanation for why he'd choose to be manipulated and abused in this way.  She causes the feeling of dread in him too (he had an abusive father, so it was easy for me and a marriage counselor we saw to make that connection for him).

Do you ever consider if your husband is ready to stand up for himself?  Is it easier to think of this as his trauma, not yours? 

Depersonalizing it has really helped me.  This is about her, not me.  This is about her Dad, not me.  I can observe and at a safe distance hold them individually in a soft light, see them empathetically.  I really appreciate all that therapists do, since people must trigger them a lot.  If they can do it, so can I.

b 

[Couscous]

It really feels like this is some kind of FOO survival mechanism -- competing for scarce resources -- that is driving the physiology of how I respond to her.

This is totally possible.

And it’s also possible that you are having a normal response to an abnormal situation.

I wasn’t left out growing up — but when we visit my H’s family and they speak in their native language without translating for me (like at every meal…) — I eventually started realizing that this was pretty upsetting for me. In fact, it took a friend pointing out how not OK it was for them to do this for me to finally stop minimizing the impact it was having on me.