Codependent throughline

[livednlearned]

I'll be seeing my 25-year-old BPD stepdaughter next week.

I can feel myself starting to regress  

This week I threw my back out and have been waking up with what I think of as dread mares.  I wake up with a full tank of dread coursing through me and cannot fall back asleep. The intensity is disturbing.

I first started to experience this type of middle of the night dread while living with SD25, although the root of the feelings I can trace back to childhood.

When it first started happening, I went on prozac to try and dial down the intensity of the feelings, like down to regular anxiety, and that sort of helped. The dread didn't go away completely but the intensity lessened. I took up a mindfulness practice and exercised more consistently, saw a somatic experiencing therapist, made it a point to do fun things with my husband and with friends, learned to assert better boundaries and neutralized about three quarters of SD25 behaviors that were directly impacting my marriage. What really helped is that H and I moved 3000 miles away  

I feel like the dread means something, but I'm not sure what ...

In all of my relationships with severely disordered people, there is this insane normalcy in the immediate surroundings that I think might have hurt me more than the actual abuse. Does that make sense? First, I was taught to normalize it. Then I internalized how to normalize it. I might be a supreme pro at it now.

I see how I did this normalizing thing with SD25 and honestly, there have been huge benefits doing this because I was able to de-escalate drama with my husband. Many of the skills I learned here were part of that normalizing.

There's something I can't figure out, and I don't know if it has to do with codependence? I am so controlled. I hold a lot in. All of my approaches are strategic. But does this just repeat the normalizing behaviors I learned as a kid?

All I can think is that this dread is coming out at night because I keep it in during the day. Not just keep it from H, but keep it from myself.

Last night, I tried to tolerate the dread, which isn't easy -- it's a horrible physical feeling. I tried to let myself feel how I really feel, between me and myself, because the feelings are not easy to admit. I despise my stepdaughter. I don't think it's codependence to behave as though we are ok -- if we all revealed our true feelings, there would be chaos, no?

I guess I'm learning that there is a price to this normalization I've learned to do, but I don't know what the alternative is.

Does any of this make sense? Maybe my disordered family members operate with a high degree of covertness. I don't know if that makes a difference.

[Couscous]

Does she remind you of one of your parents?

[livednlearned]

She’s a combo package for me. Waifish like my mom, neediness with aggression and relentlessness like my BPD brother. My whole childhood felt like he was trying to annihilate me. She is socially awkward like my father.

I don’t fear her like I did my brother.

I see the through line to FOO, but I don’t understand why the intensity. I can only think it has to do with editing m feelings, constantly, to keep peace. A lot of the skills discussed here have a peace keeping element to them.

[kells76]

I am not sure how to phrase this vibe, so seeif this is close. I wonder if the intensity is somehow connected with -- "managing" her/around her is a... price ? you pay to be in your marriage? Like, the stakes of loss (a desired marriage relationship) are higher? Again, not sure how to phrase it, but if you see the connection to FOO but the issue isn't FOO, I just wonder if the dread is partly related to the toll she has had on and the intrusion she has had in your marriage. Just brainstorming.

[Notwendy]

LnL- I don't have an explanation but I can relate. I feel the same way when I am about to see BPD mother. I also have trouble sleeping for a couple weeks after that. Even if things go reasonably well during the visit, emotionally it's hard to deal with.

We kids grew up afraid of my mother. Even though logically she isn't a physical danger to me now, she's still emotionally and verbally abusive. Fear and dread are part of how I feel when I am around her.

I hold back as well- and control my behavior,  because in a short visit- it's best to just do that. Also because it's not appropriate behavior and it does no good to do otherwise. Normalizing is a part of how our family functioned- in fact "normalizing" BPD mother was a main rule. I understand it feels like participating in a lie. That "front" feels inauthentic though. It is a bit co-dependent but on the other hand, for a family event like a wedding weekend or reunion, what's the point of doing anything else- as it would just be some kind of scene.

I have experienced where someone else can remind me of my mother and I have a similar reaction. Once a parking lot attendant yelled at me to move my car. I moved it and sat in the car for about 10 minutes feeling fearful before I could get out of the car. I was aware that this fear reaction was out of proportion. Someone else might have brushed it off thinking "she's having a bad day" but I sat there over analyzing what I did wrong, why did she yell at me- all the while knowing it was just a crowded lot with lots of cars and she probably was having a bad day with it.

With you though, I think it's also dreading the act you have to put on to avoid conflict with your SD and your H and seeing the Daddy's girl dynamics.

[I Am Redeemed]

For me, I still dread situations where I have to set boundaries or manage interactions with my disordered sister or ubpdxh. It's tied to feeling powerless and "on my guard", but a lot of it I think is resentment that it takes so much to manage even low contact interactions.

I've had disordered people around me my whole life, and sometimes I just want to scream "give me a break, already!"

Maybe your dread is tied to resentment of having to manage yet another disordered relationship and/or not expressing freely how much it affects you? Not being able to say "you know what, I really can't stand being around this person and I'm sick of having to deal with it for the sake of others?"

It seems that you have experienced disordered people in your FOO, in your last marriage, and now in your blended family with your current marriage. Maybe there's some resentment there of expectations - the expectation of, not necessarily pretending that a disordered family member is"normal ", but an expectation of acceptingthe disordered family member. "This is SD and this is how she is, being part of this family means dealing with her".

[GaGrl]

The phrase that stands out to me is that your brother "spent childhood trying to annihilate" you. If your stepdaughter causes the same feelings to arise, no wonder you are having feelings of dread -- you are feeling that your very being is at risk.

I don't think this is something you can minimize and hold in.

[Mommydoc]

Many of the skills I learned here are normalizing. I am so controlled. I hold a lot in. All of my approaches are strategic. But does this just repeat the normalizing behaviors I learned as a kid? All I can think is that this dread is coming out at night because I keep it in during the day. Not just keep it from H, but keep it from myself.

I can relate. I agree that though very effective, many of the tools we learn here, require us to tightly control/manage our emotions, and perhaps if over used, might lead to not only “covering” but ultimately to repressing toxic emotions. You seem to be implying that “the dread coming out at night” might reflect your suppressing/repressing some emotions you aren’t comfortable sharing with your husband or even acknowledging yourself.

I had a bad week (separate thread)and had a similar experience yesterday. I wouldn’t call it dread, but it was like a heaviness I couldn’t shake, that was weighing me down and keeping me from being me, and interacting normally. The only time I shook it was when I did an intense workout, but it came back immediately. At first, I just wanted relief, to expel the feelings, kind of like when you have nausea and you think vomiting will make you feel better. I told my husband, maybe I should just go cry in the sauna, to sweat/cry it out, but I  realized, that this couldn’t be “sweated out”… what needed to be released was all the repressed emotions. For me, it was anger.

You mention the normalizing behaviors we each learned during childhood, that may not be serving us well now.  That is definitely true for me. Because of my fathers rage, I never learned to constructively acknowledge my own anger and have a tendency to repress it. My sisters anger comes at me and I have learned how not to react to it. The intensity of using all the tools  to manage our responses to our pwBPD carries the the risk of unconsciously avoiding own, legitimate  negative feelings, particularly when they threaten our self-image. And when we repress those feelings, they have to “come out”. I am trying to recognize my anger as a legitimate emotion and express it in constructive ways (not directly at my sister). My husband is relieved.

Last night, I picked back up Kristen Neff’s book on the yin and yang of self compassion. Her earlier, more recognized work on self compassion focuses on cultivating a nurturing mindful  self connected presence, ie treating our self with the empathy and kindness we extend to others. It helped me tremendously and I read and have cried through her first book many times. In this book on yin and Yang, she refers to the prior work as the yin of self compassion and offers that it needs to be balanced with “yang” self compassion, which has three components: protecting (being able to set boundaries/ say no when something is not OK), providing ( getting your needs met so that you can also provide/ meet others needs and understanding they need to be balanced), and motivating (taking actions to meet your goals, accepting your imperfections, but being willing to strive to be a better version of yourself). She makes the analogies of Yin being like rocking a baby and yang like a mama bear protecting its cubs. Her major point is they all have to be balanced.

It occurred to me in reading your post LNL, that perhaps we are both out of balance. I am not sure if you relate to this. We are probably self managing in the moment, and dealing effectively with challenging circumstances, but it’s throwing us out of balance. Our bodies bodies are paying the price for the repressed emotions. I have worked hard on the yin side of self compassion, but never gave myself permission to practice the yang side as she describes it. Obtaining  a lawyer to protect myself and my mother, setting boundaries and even setting a deadline for my sister all are part of “protecting”, but they are extremely uncomfortable and un-natural to me. I need to focus more on the “providing” part also. Getting my needs met so I can meet my needs, and prioritizing them over placating my sister and keeping peace. I have clarity on my goals and am taking definitive actions to achieve them. You may not relate to this at all, but your thread helped me connect the dots between the book and what I am experiencing.  I am beginning to realize where I need to go (NC). I am also feeling comfortable being uncomfortable with negative emotions and allowing yang self compassion.

The heaviness I felt was anger. LNL, do you feel there is an imbalance between managing your SD/husband relationship and getting your own needs met? Are you able to identify the feeling or emotion that is presenting itself as dread? Is it an emotion you can safely confront or surface? Are there additional boundaries you need to set or actions you need to take to protect yourself or meet your needs?  Are you OK with expressing your needs.  Do you need to offer yourself self compassion, and if so, is it the yin or the yang component? Kristen Neff’s website is fantastic and if you don’t have time for her book, she has a lot of quick videos online. I am still reading the book, and it is helping me. 

Thanks for sharing your experience and helping me learn. Good luck.

[Notwendy]

I consider the tools here as just that. Use them if we feel the need to but in combination with knowing what we are doing- that is- stay in touch with the feelings we have.

To me the feeling of holding back anger is due to the futility of expressing it to BPD mother. In a mutual relationship if one person is angry over something the other person did, and says something- there's hope in that. Hope that the other person cares enough to stop doing what they did. In a good relationship, these things are usually minor "Hey please put my car keys back, I can't find them" type things.

With BPD mother, a statement like that would lead to a huge blow up. It's futile to express any anger or even irritation like that because it bounces right off her. She dissociates and then rages. There's no learning on her part and there's no resolution.
When I give a neutral response even if I am angry, it's not all holding back or keeping the peace. It's that it seems useless. If I am invested enough to express anger at someone, it's actually with hope we can do better. If someone were to express anger at me, I'd apologize.

Often relationship drama involves two people. The tools for me are a form of "pause and think" before reacting so that my contribution to the drama is decreased. Often two people are in a relationship pattern. We can't change the other person- so we work on our part. In some situations, perhaps changing these patterns makes the relationship more workable, but some relationships may not be workable. I think most people want to try to see if it is first before deciding it isn't.

It's tough when the person we don't want to deal with is connected to someone we care about. I think in this situation resentment becomes a strong feeling because it seems there's not a lot of choices about avoiding them.

[Manic Miner]

I've had disordered people around me my whole life, and sometimes I just want to scream "give me a break, already!"

Maybe your dread is tied to resentment of having to manage yet another disordered relationship and/or not expressing freely how much it affects you? Not being able to say "you know what, I really can't stand being around this person and I'm sick of having to deal with it for the sake of others?"

Yeah, exactly this. I can relate so much. And by "disordered" I even consider people that are healthy in many ways, but have some toxic traits that affect people around them and just make them inapproachable in the long run.

I cannot even count how many times I was on and off with my cousin, trying to have some nice brother-sister relationship. She has so many great traits, good values but her dark side just drives me nuts. From a nice, caring individual, she can flip in an instant and just ignore my messages, or lie about whereabouts and intentions, hiding true reasons, whatever they are. If this happened few times, I wouldn't have noticed it, but it's her lifestyle.
Is she disordered? In my book, yes, she is, even though I'm not sure it's anything official or pathological. But it's enough that we cannot form a healthy bond based on trust.

[Methuen]

To me the feeling of holding back anger is due to the futility of expressing it to BPD mother. In a mutual relationship if one person is angry over something the other person did, and says something- there's hope in that. Hope that the other person cares enough to stop doing what they did. In a good relationship, these things are usually minor "Hey please put my car keys back, I can't find them" type things.

This. This This.  Thanks for connecting the dots.  It’s the futility.

[livednlearned]

I'm so grateful for all of you.  

Your answers are so helpful and insightful and compassionate. I've read them each multiple times and I feel more clarity even if this will remain an ongoing work-in-progress. I probably need to accept this will be a work-in-progress even if I've managed to come a long way.

if you see the connection to FOO but the issue isn't FOO, I just wonder if the dread is partly related to the toll she has had on and the intrusion she has had in your marriage.

@kells76    you've really been there for me through the tornado of SD25. What you're suggesting makes a lot of sense. It feels like SD25 is in a fight to the death with me over H, even though it's probably just another way for her to test her worth against something or someone. I am simply collateral.

While it can feel ridiculous at times, if I don't take it seriously I get run over. I don't know if you remember when I wrote about SD25 repeatedly coming into my bedroom when she lived with us? And into my bathroom  

One night, I was cleaning up after a party and walked by my bedroom door and she was in my bed trying to get our dog to come cuddle with her. This is after first politely then firmly telling her my room was off limits, and saying the same to H. That night, H was in the bedroom with SD25, and he wasn't telling her to leave, which made me feel fury. I felt betrayed. I remember feeling red hot rage.

The intensity of emotion definitely went back to FOO, linked to an out-of-control uBPD sibling running our home, with me having no power, including having no privacy in my bedroom or bathroom. I remember begging for a lock and my father saying, "That's only going to enrage him further." That same childhood feeling is mixed in with this dread I feel. Like a mixture of fury and fear and disappointment, and desperation. Rage and powerlessness.

There's a direct connection emotionally to FOO that can explain some of the intensity. But you make me wonder, would I feel this way if H took it upon himself to have the necessary emotional backbone? I don't know. That could be part of the dread -- not feeling safe.

Yet, adult me knows I'm safe. I've been effective. We will be renting two separate condos, so not only is there a figurative lock on the door, there's a literal one, too. It's weird to me that these emotions are so intense.

Normalizing is a part of how our family functioned- in fact "normalizing" BPD mother was a main rule. I understand it feels like participating in a lie. That "front" feels inauthentic though. It is a bit co-dependent

I guess the question is: when is normalizing healthy, and when does it become codependence? And what price is paid? It's so hard for me to express anger, and there are emotions I know I've paved over. During my initial somatic experiencing therapy visits, I was so emotional after the sessions it took 30 minutes to feel like I could safely drive. It feels like a lot of emotion is stored in me, physically, from holding so much in. Is participating in the lie necessary to minimize the conflict in order to maintain contact?

With you though, I think it's also dreading the act you have to put on to avoid conflict with your SD and your H and seeing the Daddy's girl dynamics.

This is also true. And oddly, the more I contain my feelings and thoughts and opinions, the more H expresses his. He has thrown his phone getting pushed to the limit with SD25 -- there's a lot of anger and frustration towards SD25. Like me, he has PDs in his FOO, married/divorced someone with BPD, and now has SD25. She is also very socially awkward, so that doesn't help. Even without BPD it would probably be taxing.

Maybe your dread is tied to resentment of having to manage yet another disordered relationship and/or not expressing freely how much it affects you?

You couldn't be more right, @IAR. I went through a grieving period when I realized I was on yet another BPD merry go round. I guess I'm surprised at the intensity of these feelings after 10 years, especially with things feeling manageable overall. It has been so much worse. It makes me wonder if the feelings will ever go away?

The phrase that stands out to me is that your brother "spent childhood trying to annihilate" you. If your stepdaughter causes the same feelings to arise, no wonder you are having feelings of dread -- you are feeling that your very being is at risk.

Some of the panic I'm feeling comes from thinking this will likely not change. Even if SD25 isn't violent, she is aggressive. I've neutralized a lot of her behaviors but I can't seem to get my body to recognize that she isn't the same kind of threat as a violent sibling. We live somewhere she would almost certainly never live -- that is something H wanted. He joked about it, but it's no joke.

I agree that though very effective, many of the tools we learn here, require us to tightly control/manage our emotions, and perhaps if over used, might lead to not only “covering” but ultimately to repressing toxic emotions.

You make me realize how managing the situation (with skills) does sort of "re-parent" things in a way, at least better than my actual parents did. But some of the control/manage pieces are not so different than what I did in my FOO, and in my BPD marriage. So many things uBPD brother did were insane, but my parents would never use that word. The phrase "reality-based psychosis" explains things so well, but in my family we ignored and minimized. Being the family scapegoat meant experiencing the double whammy of violence and then participating in the collective insanity that nothing out of the ordinary was happening.

Because of my fathers rage, I never learned to constructively acknowledge my own anger and have a tendency to repress it. My sisters anger comes at me and I have learned how not to react to it. The intensity of using all the tools  to manage our responses to our pwBPD carries the the risk of unconsciously avoiding own, legitimate  negative feelings, particularly when they threaten our self-image. And when we repress those feelings, they have to “come out”.

Wow, this describes it so well. It brought tears to read this, Mommydoc. Especially the part about threatening our self-image. I can really box myself in with this self-image 

I am trying to recognize my anger as a legitimate emotion and express it in constructive ways (not directly at my sister). My husband is relieved.

That is probably the source of much of my frustration. I love H, and our marriage is strong. But I can't express to him how I truly feel when it comes to SD25. We both have sons on the spectrum and there is a bond there, and trust. We validate each other. He is a saint when it comes to my son (21). When it comes to SD25, the closest I have come to expressing how I feel is to say, "We don't have to all get along; we just have to make it work."

It occurred to me in reading your post LNL, that perhaps we are both out of balance. I am not sure if you relate to this. We are probably self managing in the moment, and dealing effectively with challenging circumstances, but it’s throwing us out of balance. Our bodies bodies are paying the price for the repressed emotions.

I absolutely can relate. I'm inspired to read these books -- I feel like I've been missing a big piece and this may help. Thank you  

The heaviness I felt was anger. LNL, do you feel there is an imbalance between managing your SD/husband relationship and getting your own needs met? Are you able to identify the feeling or emotion that is presenting itself as dread? Is it an emotion you can safely confront or surface? Are there additional boundaries you need to set or actions you need to take to protect yourself or meet your needs?

These are good questions. I definitely detect rage in the dread. It so quickly turns to something else, though. Anger is a hot potato emotion for me. I go quickly to control, with a truck load of anxiety to try and fix the problem.

But when it comes to an imbalance between managing SD/husband relationship and my needs, I'm not sure...friends here have been amazing at helping me assert boundaries. Maybe I don't know what other needs there are? When H wanted to have his kids stay in a house with us, I tended to my needs (e.g. absolute minimum amount of time with SD25, separate rentals), but I did not express how I truly felt. It's a delicate balance. There is also a lot of respect there.

In some situations, perhaps changing these patterns makes the relationship more workable, but some relationships may not be workable.

I think that's where I'm at. The relationship is more workable but perhaps at my expense, which feels similar to where I've been before. Even though it's an improvement over all, I'm still the one who is trying to make it work.

[Couscous]

LNL,

A few of us have figured out over in the thread about daddy’s girls that we were victims of covert incest by our fathers. It sounds like this may be what’s going on with your H and and SD and if so then it’s understandable that this visit is triggering a lot of emotions in you.

Even as a young child I was well aware of the fact that my father has always put us kids before my step-mother — something he actually confirmed in a comment to me a couple of months ago when he said that “step-mother knows that she comes last”, as if that was just how it was supposed to be.

[Notwendy]

I guess the question is: when is normalizing healthy, and when does it become codependence? And what price is paid?

Is participating in the lie necessary to minimize the conflict in order to maintain contact?

I am not sure I know the exact answer to the first question exactly- I think it depends on the situation and what the motive is- is it fear or choice? It's not completely honest for sure, but in many social situations we aren't entirely honest all the time. We wouldn't go up to our boss and tell her her dress is ugly, even if we think it it, but perhaps we also wouldn't tell her how nice it looks either. We keep a sense of formality.

The same action can be co-dependent or not. If I do something out of fear, it's co-dependent. If it's by choice, or even willingness, it may not be. If it's done to control the other person, that's co-dependent.

Children don't have the ability to make choices. Normalizing BPD mother wasn't something we even questioned as kids. It wasn't co-dependent behavior. It was the family rule.

I don't normalize her now but I also avoid conflict with her to the extent it doesn't violate a big boundary for me. I don't like being manipulated but if it is to do things that I am willing to do anyway, I don't make a big deal about it. For instance, if it is doing something for her- like an errand when I am there, well, I'd do it anyway. Social manipulations, I refuse or sometimes ignore- sometimes she'll say " so and so would love it if you called them" and I know she's made that up and is trying to socially manipulate something. So I'll say "thanks for letting me know" and don't act on it.

I don't think I am not expressing anger at her from a place of fear or co-dependency but again as it's futile. She'll just dissociate and give it all back. I am not afraid of that, it's just not worth it. But if I am feeling angry or resentful- I pay attention to that. It means I need some time to myself- away from her- when I visit. I don't stay with her when I do so I can have that space to myself.

Do we have to do this to maintain contact? I think it's a choice. If we don't, it will likely be a very unpleasant time of contact. We can choose that if we want to. Personally, I'd rather not deal with that because no good that I can see will come out of it. I did once let the anger out. Dad was in his last days and I had lost patience with BPD mother and yelled at her. It felt good in the moment to let all that anger out at her. All it did was put her in victim mode and she projected it back and for me, the sum of it wasn't worth it. So now, I try to stay mindful of my own feelings. It was a stressful time. The "HALT" - hungry, angry, lonely, tired reminder of when we need to take care of ourselves helps to keep out of these situations.

The reason we have these situations to deal with is when someone we care about is in a strong attachment relationship with a disordered person, or when we are. Even if the relationship is difficult, it's my mother. If she were an acquaintance, it would probably be different. Still, I have the choice to try to make it work or not. In addition, my father was in a significant relationship with her and I was attached to him so there is that connection as well.

Truly, if your H was not connected to your SD, you'd have nothing to do with her. I think it's understandable that a parent would feel a strong connection to their child, even if that child is disordered. You don't feel that connection but you care about your H. You actually are not tolerating your SD for her- but for him. Yet, the price you feel is anger and resentment. This is a clue that your behavior is co-dependent but possibly more with him than with her. Your resentment is his putting you in situations where you feel compromised.

I think the issue here is that he decided to share a house with her. That changes the whole weekend for you. You may have tolerated this if you had your own place and she had hers. I know it makes a difference to not stay with my mother when I visit or in family events. I choose to stay as calm as possible during visits and family events. There are times where you will see your SD- but staying with her 24/7 may be too much.

It's probably last minute for this weekend, but being honest with your H about future get togethers may be the next step for you. Make it about you - not her. Tell him it's better for you if you don't share a living space next time.

[Mommydoc]

Anger is a hot potato emotion for me. I go quickly to control, with a truck load of anxiety to try and fix the problem.

I think I am the same, I try to “manage” anger. ( which may mean suppressing) and/or manage the person who is making me angry (particularly with my sister wBPD). I think I do that out of fear of not being able to control the anger.  Perhaps because of the dysfunctional patterns of my FOO, or perhaps because I have learned that expressing anger towards her is not worth the price as NotWendy says. But we have to remember that is a choice we are making.

In Brene Brown’s Atlas of Emotions, she talks about anger as being a secondary emotion and the need to look deeper for the possible underlying primary emotion, which I struggle with, but I am trying to explore. She also talks about Anger as a catalyst, which I particularly like.

Anger is a catalyst. Holding on to it will make us exhausted and sick. Internalizing anger will take away our joy and spirit; externalizing anger will make us less effective in our attempts to create change and forge connection. It’s an emotion that we need to transform into something life-giving: courage, love, change, compassion, justice.

I don't think I am not expressing anger at her from a place of fear or co-dependency but again as it's futile. She'll just dissociate and give it all back. I am not afraid of that, it's just not worth it. But if I am feeling angry or resentful- I pay attention to that. It means I need some time to myself- away from her- when I visit. I don't stay with her when I do so I can have that space to myself.

Do we have to do this to maintain contact? I think it's a choice. If we don't, it will likely be a very unpleasant time of contact. We can choose that if we want to. Personally, I'd rather not deal with that because no good that I can see will come out of it. I did once let the anger out. Dad was in his last days and I had lost patience with BPD mother and yelled at her. It felt good in the moment to let all that anger out at her. All it did was put her in victim mode and she projected it back and for me, the sum of it wasn't worth it. So now I try to stay mindful of my own feelings.

Thank you NotWendy. This is a great self reflection. It is always important to be mindful of our own feelings, and recognize even when we may feel “boxed in” that we always have choices. When we choose not to express anger towards our pwBPD, we are choosing that. We also have the choice to utilize that anger in a positive way, as a “catalyst” to assure we meet our own needs.

When H wanted to have his kids stay in a house with us, I tended to my needs (e.g. absolute minimum amount of time with SD25, separate rentals), but I did not express how I truly felt. It's a delicate balance. There is also a lot of respect there.

I applaud you for paying attention to your own needs. It made me recall an incident with my sister that occurred over 20 years ago. While visiting her home with my young children, she got angry over a ridiculous thing. Her reactions put myself and my kids at risk and I felt unsafe being in her home. I contemplated going to a hotel that night, but my husband was arriving the next day and he talked me out of it. Though I was angry briefly, the anger became constructive. My husband I decided from that point on, that we would never stay in her home as a guest, and when on trips with her family, we would always get our own place. When I reflect on that event, I think of it in a positive way, in that it reflects me taking an action/setting a necessary boundary that has allowed me to feel safe while still being able to take trips with her and her family.

LNL, your love and respect for your husband is  evident. I understand that at times this topic and how you feel about it is almost too sensitive to raise, but I can’t help but wonder if a trusted therapist might help you navigate the conversation in a safe way. It might help both of you individually and as a couple with a healthy path forward. Before getting engaged, I was once in an uncomfortable triangle with my husbands best friend (wNPD), and also felt I couldn’t safely surface it. We eventually did so with the help of a couples therapist and it made a huge positive difference in our relationship. It turns out my husband was carrying a lot of guilt around how his friend was treating me, but didn’t know how to deal with it. I wasn’t asking him to reject his friend but rather to validate me. Just a thought. 

[livednlearned]

we were victims of covert incest by our fathers. It sounds like this may be what’s going on with your H and and SD

When I first met H, I wondered if this were going on. It doesn't quite fit, though. H and I did sessions with both a therapist and a child psychologist and they seemed focused on a different dynamic, but maybe they were just moving us away from labels, idk. H doesn't seem to seek emotional support from SD25, but maybe he did before we met. It's hard to imagine, though. She's had ongoing psychiatric issues for 10 years and isn't stable. Whereas it's very clear the degree of emotional incest between BPD bio mom and SD25.

[livednlearned]

You actually are not tolerating your SD for her- but for him. Yet, the price you feel is anger and resentment. This is a clue that your behavior is co-dependent but possibly more with him than with her. Your resentment is his putting you in situations where you feel compromised.

I did feel this way when we first set things up, but I managed to find two condos next to each other. We won't be sharing a living space. However, I probably skipped right over the actual feelings and went right to solving the problem. This is definitely a pattern for me.

And it makes me realize why I'm so angry/dready. It's the assumption that our experience living with SD25 was anything but normal. If H said to me, "Let's figure a way to visit with SD25 that isn't stressful for us" I would probably feel different because we would be working from reality.

Tell him it's better for you if you don't share a living space next time.

This is probably where I was coming from a codependent place. It's odd that we acknowledge this when it comes to visiting my parents and his, but when it comes to SD25 I walk on eggshells.

[livednlearned]

It turns out my husband was carrying a lot of guilt around how his friend was treating me, but didn’t know how to deal with it. I wasn’t asking him to reject his friend but rather to validate me.

More to reflect on, but I wanted to say how much this resonates with me. Like me, H didn't know how to deal with BPD. I have had more therapy and read more, practiced more, jumped into the super deep end. He trusts my lead and I trust that we want the same thing. I don't know what this particular episode means, but it definitely means something. It could be as simple as not making a big deal out of things after such a long period of calm. We're both in a great place so it almost feels like making a mountain out of a molehill. I may be minimizing my own feelings 

[livednlearned]

This thread is making it more and more clear that the core stuff is 1. normalizing 2. the relentless aggression of 3. a disordered family member and 4. feeling unprotected.

Not feeling unsafe -- I seem able to take care of that.

It's the anger of the whole dynamic repeating.

If we did not normalize the behaviors or the strain of dealing with them, I don't know that the feelings of betrayal, the feelings of not being protected would be so strong.

Which means saying the truth: I am fine with these visits -- they're important. They are hard for me and I require physical space. When we do this, we stay in separate units so I can be at my best.

I didn't say that this time, I just handled it.

The downside is that SD25 will likely visit us at our home at some point and it's not as easy to say nope. She can't stay here.

Especially with my son living with us rent free.

[Couscous]

Another angle is to try to figure out is who it is you are really angry at. For example, in my case I had a lot of anger that I was feeling toward my MIL until I realized that I was really angry at my H for his being enmeshed with her, allowing her to intrude into our marriage and his failure to protect me from her emotional outbursts directed at me.

Although I can see how my anger was probably a secondary emotion since I wasn’t reacting to real and present danger, I also think that perhaps some of my anger was appropriate, because when I married my husband I didn’t sign up to be “the other woman”. In a way it’s like there’d been a breach of contract so I think that anger is actually the appropriate response as it motivated me to take action, which in my case consisted of me telling my husband that I am no longer willing to spend extended periods of time in his mother’s presence and our visits will need to reduced in duration, all contact would need to take place in public places, he is not to leave me unattended with her, and if tensions begin to rise, I will take the kids and exit the scene, with or without him. But it I took me 8 years of tolerating my one-down position before I finally became empowered enough to stop waiting for him to step up to the plate and decide that I was going to have do what I needed to do to take care of myself.

[Couscous]

The downside is that SD25 will likely visit us at our home at some point and it's not as easy to say nope. She can't stay here.

Yes, it’s very a scary thing to say no when this was against the rules and essentially a crime in our FOO.

But you don’t have to navigate this alone. A family therapist will be able to help you and H set appropriate boundaries with SD. It wouldn’t even take many sessions. Since your H has been getting frustrated with her he may even welcome the opportunity to do so. 

[Riv3rW0lf]

Another angle is to try to figure out is who it is you are really angry at. For example, in my case I had a lot of anger that I was feeling toward my MIL until I realized that I was really angry at my H for his being enmeshed with her, allowing her to intrude into our marriage and his failure to protect me from her emotional outbursts directed at me.

Hi LnL, so many great insights here. I don't have much to add but wanted to extend some support.

Like Couscous, this is also what I wondered.

I have a tendency to misplace my anger, because I never learned how to express it healthily, nor to recognize it and the feelings my anger was sometimes hiding.

The story about her in your bed, in your room, and your husband saying nothing speaks volume to me... In this scenario, considering she is disordered, I would have felt deeply abandoned by my husband. I don't know if this is what you went through or not, but based on my experience, anger would have come in to hide the abandonment feeling, and the pain and hurt to realize my husband didn't seem to "care" either about my boundaries.

Is your husband scared of her? That she might self-harm to the point of no return?

You are doing amazing in upholding your own boundaries and communicating your needs. However, reading all of this, I can't help but see that husband is having a very hard time doing the same. It is not easy. It is his daughter and I understand your dread. So anyway... Another idea here... Anger hiding the triggering of the abandonment you suffered as a child, and are reliving constantly in this triangulation.

Not an easy situation to be in... In the end, you have no control over your husband and how he is dealing with his daughter, which seems to often include ignoring your needs and limits. And I also understand you not wanting to put him in front of an ultimatum. In the end though, my therapist would say the anger needs to be directed at the proper place...so is it FOO or husband? I have a hunch that SD, despite all appearances, is not the one you are angry at...you understand her disease too much and do not have enough proximity to her. Just a hunch though, might be off.

[Couscous]

LNL, I’m thinking that the book by Harriet Lerner, The Dance of Anger, might help you gain some clarity about this situation. It’s actually one of the most impactful books that I have read that has helped me make sense of the dynamics in my family, and I find myself re-reading parts of it on practically a weekly basis. 

[livednlearned]

@Couscous, it's definitely anger at H.

The intensity of the anger is amplified by FOO.

It's interesting, though. I see something I didn't notice before.

I kind of neuter my own anger, if that makes sense. For example, @Riv3rw0lf, I did direct anger at H during the bedroom incident. It was so uncharacteristically out of control, zero to 10, and really caught me by surprise. I felt the feelings and then almost immediately went into editing mode. Not that that was bad, because I managed to identify the origin of why I felt so intensely and could tell him, and he could listen. We went from having a potential fight to feeling close and intimate, with him comforting me.

However, this thread is helping me realize that I walked it back pretty quickly by pointing out how the actions triggered FOO stuff. As though FOO stuff was 100 percent responsible for the blow up.

What I didn't say was, "This is unacceptable for SD25 to be in here -- I've told both of you. It's inappropriate and unhealthy." I also didn't say, "We agreed this behavior has to stop. When you allow it to happen it hurts me, and I'm angry at you for letting it continue."

Anger hiding the triggering of the abandonment you suffered as a child, and are reliving constantly in this triangulation.

This really knocked me over. It was much, much worse before we worked through a lot but you're right, it is still a dynamic running in the undercurrents.

One thing that is challenging for me is that H is so wonderful with my neurodiverse son. I have so much gratitude for H's patience and tolerance, how supportive he is of me. I do feel we hold each other up with our challenging children, and I would be surprised if H did not feel some resentment and anger about being the so-called outsider to an LnL-S21 dynamic.

@Couscous, I'm glad you reminded me of Harriet Lerner. I read all of her books, I was so hungry to make sense of the triangulation dynamics, and what I learned there has been essential in my recovery from unhealthy habits.

This is such a subtle nuance I'm having a hard time articulating it, but removing myself from the drama triangles seems to have also meant removing myself from having strong emotions about the triangles.

[Couscous]

I would be surprised if H did not feel some resentment and anger about being the so-called outsider to an LnL-S21 dynamic.

If you suspect that this is something that might be a problem then it would be worth exploring this in family therapy. If your H sees that you are at least willing to examine whether or not you may need to do a bit of cleaning up your side of the street, so to speak, he will then not be able to use your relationship with your  son as an excuse to avoid looking at his relationship with his daughter.  

[I Am Redeemed]

I'm hearing that you feel guilty because H has embraced your son, who has his own challenges, while you cannot do the same with SD25.

Your son and SD25 are two different people with different diagnoses. It's obvious that sd25 presents way more challenging behavior, for both H and you.

I also hear you saying that it would help you if there were more of a sense of teamwork between you and H, an acknowledgement of how the situation is difficult and an invitation to game plan together.

Does it feel like H treats the SD25 thing as the "elephant in the room"?

[livednlearned]

The trip went well enough and I learned something.

Part of what winds me up with these visits seems to be the three-person dynamic with H, me, and SD25. It could be that 3 is the magic number for tripping my triggers from my own FOO, driven by SD25's near constant triangulating maneuvers.

I was the left-out child in my FOO. There is a chosen child/left-out dynamic that gets switched on when SD25 is around.

But this trip was different.

SS23 was there, and we connect easily. 

This was frustrating for SD25. She seemed at a loss how to exclude me when there were 2 people (SS23 and H) instead of 1 (just H).

When it was just three of us: SD25/SS23/me, then SD25 would try to get a conversation going with SS23 in Spanish, which I don't speak. SS23 would have none of it.

I really think it's this triangulation dynamic that makes me feel like my body is preparing for war.

I know SD25 is difficult, but she isn't dangerous like my BPD sibling and BPDx husband. We don't see her often, H has learned new skills, I've been successful with new skills, other family members are enforcing boundaries with SD25 (including SS23).

Her level of difficulty just doesn't warrant the type of response I have to her.

It really feels like this is some kind of FOO survival mechanism -- competing for scarce resources -- that is driving the physiology of how I respond to her.

[Riv3rW0lf]

It really feels like this is some kind of FOO survival mechanism -- competing for scarce resources -- that is driving the physiology of how I respond to her.

This is actually something that helped me come to peace with my decision to go no contact with my BPD mother... The fact that what I have is not something that will ever go away. I am now convinced that C-PTSD is a chronic condition that can be managed, but triggers will lead to very real, physical reactions that can feel overwhelming.  We only get better in managing our response to it, and in coming back to our ground zero because we develop tools and the know-how.

I was discussing with my cousin who works with Army veteran, and she found it very helpful to hear this point of view. That the condition is not just mental but physical. THE BODY KEEPS THE SCORE was a real eye opener for me, and I gave her the reference for her work...

But I don't think those physical reaction are ever going away. However, since we are now aware of them, since we know, we can get better in managing our response and to keep ourselves away from the triggers.

In my case, it meant going no contact with my mother, at least for now, because I still don't feel strong enough to manage the physical reactions of absolute fear and anxiety I get from her presence. Maybe someday I will.

Because of your situation, I don't see your being able to cut contact with your SD either... How do you feel now? Does the sensation linger, or do you at least get back on your feet within a reasonable timeline?

[beatricex]

hi LivednLearned,
Your post resonates with me.  Every single word.  I think I have a very similar situation to yours, I have an adult stepdaughter who rumaged through my bathroom when she came over, then proudly proclaimed that she did so.

I also felt the nighttime dread.  Weirdly I too went to my doc and complained of insomnia and anxiety.  She prescribed trazadone, which I only take as needed.  It seems to have very little side effects, I only take half or 3/4 of the pill, and I sleep like a baby.

I too have the disordered FOO and have had many many conversations with my husband about how his daughter triggers me - it all feels like my BPD mom, and sisters who enabled her, all over again.

I mostly believe today that if he had continued a relationship with his daughter who I suspect has BPD that it could be considered a trauma bond.  There really is no other explanation for why he'd choose to be manipulated and abused in this way.  She causes the feeling of dread in him too (he had an abusive father, so it was easy for me and a marriage counselor we saw to make that connection for him).

Do you ever consider if your husband is ready to stand up for himself?  Is it easier to think of this as his trauma, not yours? 

Depersonalizing it has really helped me.  This is about her, not me.  This is about her Dad, not me.  I can observe and at a safe distance hold them individually in a soft light, see them empathetically.  I really appreciate all that therapists do, since people must trigger them a lot.  If they can do it, so can I.

b 

[Couscous]

It really feels like this is some kind of FOO survival mechanism -- competing for scarce resources -- that is driving the physiology of how I respond to her.

This is totally possible.

And it’s also possible that you are having a normal response to an abnormal situation.

I wasn’t left out growing up — but when we visit my H’s family and they speak in their native language without translating for me (like at every meal…) — I eventually started realizing that this was pretty upsetting for me. In fact, it took a friend pointing out how not OK it was for them to do this for me to finally stop minimizing the impact it was having on me.

[Turkish]

When it was just three of us: SD25/SS23/me, then SD25 would try to get a conversation going with SS23 in Spanish, which I don't speak. SS23 would have none of it.

That's really rude. Good for SS23.

[GaGrl]

The language thing seems to be a tactic. My H's ex insulted me in her language as I was standing in the same room with her. My stepdaughter refused to speak in anything other than English and told me later what was said. She was furious but said it was typical snarky behavior for her mother.

I was trying to accommodate Ex regarding visits since my stepdaughter and granddaughter were living with us at the time. That was the last time Ex was in my home.

[livednlearned]

I am now convinced that C-PTSD is a chronic condition that can be managed, but triggers will lead to very real, physical reactions that can feel overwhelming.  We only get better in managing our response to it, and in coming back to our ground zero because we develop tools and the know-how.

This is oddly freeing to think of. I really appreciate this! When I feel these physical responses out of proportion (what I think of as out of proportion), I often think there's something wrong with me. I'm trying to just accept/acknowledge the sensations, and be grateful that there's a ground to return to. This happened when I saw my BPD sibling for the first time in 10 years at my father's 80th birthday. I was surprised at the physical sensations that came up.

How do you feel now? Does the sensation linger, or do you at least get back on your feet within a reasonable timeline?

The threat of what I was fearing has passed so things feel more manageable. I don't love that I ruminate on this stuff but I am glad that the extra thinking helped me pay attention so I could make sense of the feelings.

I have an adult stepdaughter who rumaged through my bathroom when she came over, then proudly proclaimed that she did so.

  Mine wandered into our bathroom when I was getting out of the shower. There's more but that was the most shocking. SD25 is covertly aggressive, so she works more in the shadows but until I managed to neutralize bedroom/bathroom privacy, she worked all the loopholes she could find. I used to think if we invited her to sleep in our bed she would've hopped right in.

I also felt the nighttime dread.  Weirdly I too went to my doc and complained of insomnia and anxiety.

It's awful, isn't it? During the day I have ways to manage these feelings but at night I feel defenseless.

I too have the disordered FOO and have had many many conversations with my husband about how his daughter triggers me - it all feels like my BPD mom, and sisters who enabled her, all over again.

These FOO triggers are hard. Does your BPD stepdaughter have a BPD mom?

She causes the feeling of dread in him too.

For H it seems complicated. I have seen him furious with her when she trips his trigger the way his BPDx wife did, and then SD25 learns where the line is with that approach and she goes back to waif, which he has fewer defenses against. What we have working in our favor is a newfound embrace for what is socially acceptable. SD25 does not act out like a lot of pwBPD. For her, it's primarily pushy, covert, relentless. She is remarkable at sensing where people draw the line.

Do you ever consider if your husband is ready to stand up for himself?  Is it easier to think of this as his trauma, not yours? 

To be fair, he has come a long way. I think because we're both conflict avoidant, I have put effort into being effective whether he participates or not, and that has had the unexpected consequence of building trust. He trusts that I will be effective and do the right thing without creating conflict. The result is that when I suggest something that will be better for us as a family, he is willing to go along with it. The other upside is that both siblings recognize that SD25 has issues like her BPD mom and they are talking to each other and asserting better boundaries. I don't want to overstate my influence here because they see therapists who are helping them, but I do think seeing these things implemented effectively by other family members has given them some wind at their back.

I can observe and at a safe distance hold them individually in a soft light, see them empathetically. 

This is a lovely sentiment. Thanks for sharing that -- it's a wonderful image to hold.

it’s also possible that you are having a normal response to an abnormal situation.

True. I think if I grew up internalizing better boundaries, I'm not sure how things would've played out.

That's really rude. Good for SS23.

The evolution of SS23 is a whole other topic. He is in a very bad situation (living with BPD mom) about to get worse.

The language thing seems to be a tactic.

Because BPD mom was a rager, and H won't tolerate being abused, SD25 is more fully waif-like to get her needs met. She has to find covert ways to feel better at other people's expense.

The more I recognized what was going on, the more I protected my reactions. Not knowing whether she is pushing my buttons, she has become very waif-like with me. After the Spanish thing happened, and SS23 not participating, SD25 kept trying to talk to me about my second language. It's hard to describe but having a BPD sibling I know there are layers to these interactions. After being covertly aggressive, she then tries to smooth things over to make sure she's in good standing.

It's exhausting.

[Couscous]

I wonder if your H would be motivated to ‘unmesh’ from his daughter if he was aware of how harmful his enmeshment is for her, and that it would actually be in her best interests to reduce the amount of time he spends with her to give her the opportunity to become more mature and self-sufficient. Do you think he might be open to reading Silently Seduced?

I’m also curious about what you think about the possibility that there is a part of you that actually wants to avoid too much emotional closeness with your H and that his enmeshment with his daughter might be allowing for a level of comfortable distance between the two of you, which feels familiar to you.

[livednlearned]

I wonder if your H would be motivated to ‘unmesh’ from his daughter if he was aware of how harmful his enmeshment is for her, and that it would actually be in her best interests to reduce the amount of time he spends with her to give her the opportunity to become more mature and self-sufficient.

I took a look at a sample of Silently Seduced. I'm not sure if there's a section in the book that discusses BPD children seeking out enmeshed relationships, or ones who had enmeshed relationships with their same-sex parent?

The real enmeshment seems to be between BPD mom and SD25. During her affair, BPD mom confided in SD25 (14 at the time), sharing details that make me feel ill when I think about it.

When I looked at the common characteristics for silent seduction, they don't seem to apply to SD25 and H.

SD25 and BPD mom seem to meet the criteria for enmeshment so maybe it's a matter of degree? Idk. And SD25 puts the same burdens on her siblings, maybe even more so. SS23 said that SD25 "parentifies" him. He feels he's supposed to be her parent.  

I don't know where the line between enmeshment and codependence is, but if there is one, H seems to be the one resisting with her desire to enmesh. Being codependent makes it harder for him to do this, which she exploits, although I would give him a B+ for effort when it comes to neutralizing many of the behaviors. Where we are different is that I am not trusting. I don't trust her and assume there is pretty much always an angle, always an agenda. Maybe because of my own FOO, or maybe because covert aggression is more obvious to women,  I tend to be less tolerant watching the problematic behaviors even start.

I’m also curious about what you think about the possibility that there is a part of you that actually wants to avoid too much emotional closeness with your H

We're pretty close. He's probably more emotionally available than I am, tbh, but I'm more committed to being emotionally intimate. We're both conflict avoidant, though we've gotten better at expressing difficult feelings and saying what we want, even if it's hard to hear. If there is a spectrum, we are probably both on the end of the scale where we're a little emotionally allergic. We are both in professions that are high on logic and reason but we're also both from dysfunctional FOOs and marriages, so there's a lot of common ground to cover and a willingness to look at ourselves, together.

When SD25 lived with us, I think what was most difficult is that it happened on the heels of SD25's first psychiatric crisis, plus the rawness of her parents divorce, plus her going off to college, her BPD mom moving to a new state, and then her dad moving into a new house with me, a new stepmom. Perimenopause didn't help  . It's a miracle we made it.

When I compare then to now, it gives me hope. We're moving roughly in the same direction. Maybe not as fast I would like but at least we're moving  

I thought when we moved 3000 miles away that SD25 would collapse and follow us out here. That hasn't happened. I think it goes back to my own FOO issues and feeling like there is a persistent threat. As much as I want to lay blame on SD25 for nutty behavior, I have to be honest that I bring some nuttiness to this too.

[Notwendy]

It's good that you recognize your own emotional reactions to this situation. It does seem more like co-dependency on your H's part.

My H's family dynamics are different from mine. What's most obvious is that they are less dramatically disordered than in my family but there are some dynamics that are less obvious but still "off".  There's probably some in every family.  His mother has some codependent tendencies but she's a kind and loving mother. Compared to my family, H's family looks more like the family shows of the 1950's.  The underlying dynamic though is that H is the golden child, and as an adult, the expected "hero" and "rescuer" for any family needs. While he sees his family as "normal" ( and a lot of it is )- I can see the dynamics clearer. Our families set our idea of "normal". We all tend to fall into our family dynamics when we are with our families. Everyone does this to some extent.

Seeing my H in his "hero" role with his family would irritate me. I don't think he notices it but I do. And also seeing him in golden child role . This obviously was seen in context of my role as scapegoat. It would make sense that this kind of reaction on my part had to be influenced by my family dynamics.

[Couscous]

It does seem more like co-dependency on your H's part.

Yeah, it does seem like this may very well be the issue. I wonder if there's been a role reversal and if there's a parent-child quality to their relationship, with her in parent role. Her behavior sounds similar to that of an intrusive MIL, which would be the case if she fits the profile of the borderline Queen. If so his (and everyone else's) role is to be passive and "please and appease" her, and you're probably expected to "take one for the team", and pretend that you're one big, happy, healthy family. If this is the case then it is a horrible position to be in at best, and at worst, could even be retraumatizing for you. 

It definitely sounds like she engages in relational aggression and you have every right to protect yourself from it. Just because she's not physically violent doesn't make her behavior any less harmful. If your H is either too oblivious or too scared to stand up to her, it is probably going to up to you advocate for yourself and start asserting yourself around her. But because she's covertly aggressive the only realistic solution might be for you to limit contact with her, but this might take some time to work up to. Eventually you could begin reducing the amount of contact you have with her and put your foot down about her staying in your house when she visits. You could also decide that you do not want to stay in the same hotel and only spend a few hours each day around her, or decide that you do not want to participate in their family vacations period. You may want to get assistance with from a family therapist who understands power dynamics in families. I also think the book Toxic In-Laws might be of some use to you.

[livednlearned]

Seeing my H in his "hero" role with his family would irritate me. I don't think he notices it but I do. And also seeing him in golden child role . This obviously was seen in context of my role as scapegoat. It would make sense that this kind of reaction on my part had to be influenced by my family dynamics.

Are your reactions to this more or less benign? Irritation is kind of what I'm going for because it doesn't seem to hit me physically. I definitely feel irritation, but that's in the realm of something I feel is manageable. The stuff I struggle with seems to be in "body keeps the score" territory where I experience intense emotional response to a threat that no one else notices. It's like being triggered and then getting stuck there.

I wonder if there's been a role reversal and if there's a parent-child quality to their relationship, with her in parent role.

When we lived together, I felt she was competing with me to be H's spouse. But I don't know if that behavior was present prior to me. The way it manifested was weird enough that I could point it out and H would agree it wasn't acceptable behavior and with the help of therapists we neutralized the most egregious. But for me, dealing with FOO triggers, I see things go underground and take different forms.

Her behavior sounds similar to that of an intrusive MIL, which would be the case if she fits the profile of the borderline Queen. If so his (and everyone else's) role is to be passive and "please and appease" her, and you're probably expected to "take one for the team", and pretend that you're one big, happy, healthy family. If this is the case then it is a horrible position to be in at best, and at worst, could even be retraumatizing for you. 

In some ways, what helps is that H has his own FOO triggers. He had a BPD-like mother, a BPD sister, and BPD ex. He is intolerant of overt abuse, and SD25 seems to know this. A few times she has tried queen tactics that H won't tolerate. One time, SD25 texted him, "I know you think I should be institutionalized" after a bunch of escalating texts about SI that began after H told her she couldn't join our date night. H can shut that down quickly because BPD mom used similar tactics. But the waif tactics he seems less able to identify.

Eventually you could begin reducing the amount of contact you have with her and put your foot down about her staying in your house when she visits.

It's funny, one of the consequences of neutralizing a lot of her behaviors is that H feels like we're all ok. And maybe if I didn't have these FOO sensitivities, things would be ok. I ruminate more than I care to admit about SD25 visits and how to handle the covert stuff I've come to expect, and the truth is she's in my life and I have to accept that.

After this last trip, H and I agreed that if the two kids visit (SS23 and SD25), we will rent them a place together. It's a little trickier to arrange that if only SD25 visits, not to mention the expense.

Sometimes I feel like I got too good at my job, and the consequence is that the conflict has gone underground. 

What I am trying to do is be more authentic and when SD25 makes me feel uncomfortable, to say so, regardless of the consequences. I'm probably just as guilty of being covertly defensive and she is of being covertly aggressive.

[Notwendy]

Are your reactions to this more or less benign? Irritation is kind of what I'm going for because it doesn't seem to hit me physically. I definitely feel irritation, but that's in the realm of something I feel is manageable. The stuff I struggle with seems to be in "body keeps the score" territory where I experience intense emotional response to a threat that no one else notices. It's like being triggered and then getting stuck there.

I think it depends. It was hard to identify dysfunction in my H's FOO since mine was so overtly dysfunctional. But there was covert dysfunction. They say we "match" our spouses and my H and I matched. We have had marital issues, some really tough at times. He has some "BPD-ish" behaviors- they aren't at the level of my mother, they probably wouldn't even be professionally identified but to me, that would trigger me into high panic, walking on eggshells and co-dependency- which then reinforced/enabled his behaviors. One significant difference though is that he became aware that his behaviors were damaging the marriage- which tells me it's not fully BPD but it was enough to get us into patterns that were similar to my parents, albeit less severe.

It was actually the issues surrounding my father's passing that led me to 12 step co-dependency work. This became a two for one work in progress. If I could work on my responses to BPD mother, then the responses to him diminished too, since she's far more difficult and severe and when I reacted to him in a different way, these behaviors diminished too, because I didn't reinforce them. It didn't work this way with my mother as PD behaviors are more resistant to change.

So my reactions to my H's behavior were as you described, more intense. He was at his worst with me, as these things go. In "hero" role, he would put on his "I'm the best guy ever" in front of his family who hero worshipped him so they didn't bother me as much, but they do irritate me.

Circumstances were that we live a distance away, but our families are near each other. He wanted to spend all that time with his family. I didn't want to spend all the time with either one family- I'm the sharer, the compromiser- we should visit both and we did but it felt mine got the short end of the stick. So ( and especially after co-dependency work) I realized there's no reason we have to be together the whole time. He can see his family, I can see mine and that's what we did.

This created a whole new dynamic. Once I wasn't with him ( I guess as enabler in a way) his family was out of their "company mode". It wasn't that they were abusive like my mother but the dynamics increased when it was just them and they would lean on him to do things for them and it actually got wearing on him. He also saw a bit of the dysfunction albeit would not admit there was anything "not normal" and mostly he was right. I had been trying to "get him to see" his part in our matching dynamics but after co-dependency work realized to stop that. Let him deal with his family crazy stuff. I have plenty to deal with in my family! . So yes while it irritates me, I also decided not to be around it a lot.

I don't like the "hero" role. I think it stems from the same fears- us trying to please other people while not being ourselves in order to be loved and accepted- and I know I am guilty of doing that as well- people pleasing. We were both doing it and I think that it led to resentment- for him and for me. I feel as if working on co-dependency led me out of this pattern and also helped him to realize he didn't have to do that with me.

I do think working on our own emotional reaction benefits us in many ways. I found it does in my case. But also I don't have a grown clingy BPD stepdaughter to contend with. I think your situation is hard. I think we would have issues if I were enmeshed with my BPD mother though or he was enmeshed with his which he thankfully is not.  My H would not like that at all.

[Couscous]

The stuff I struggle with seems to be in "body keeps the score" territory where I experience intense emotional response to a threat that no one else notices. It's like being triggered and then getting stuck there.

The problem is that it's not healthy for you to be triggered to that extent, regardless of who else does or does not notice. My T reminds me that covert aggression is still aggression. All that matters is that it is taking a very real toll onyou. 

But how many visits per year are taking place and for how long, and how many hours each day do you spend in her company during the visits? Do just the two of you take vacations?

[Notwendy]

I recall working on feeling triggered. These are information for us. When we are feeling like this, we can take a step back and think about it- what is happening and what to do. Other people can't "trigger" us- we feel triggered over something they said or did- and if we "own" that this is ours- it's ours to work on. In a way - feeling triggered can be a learning opportunity.

What to do is our choice. It was said in my groups the idea of " I have not had enough recovery work to be around this person" - the idea that feeling triggered is not a good thing and if one feels that way around someone, well maybe it's better to keep a distance. This still fits the idea that feeling triggered is our own feeling and we control our response to it. But what if that person is someone you live with?

I'm not talking about abuse- that isn't something to tolerate.

I recall the first time I realized that something my BPD mother said didn't bother me as much as it used to. That felt like progress. I didn't feel triggered. It wasn't that I chose to not feel the feeling- it's that I had been able to work at not taking her comments as personally- and I had better boundaries. Boundaries are key here. However, she still is verbally and emotionally abusive. Physically- I feel guarded around her and don't sleep well when I am around her. I have to limit contact with her- for my own sake- but part of co-dependency work is self care and choosing to take care of ourselves. Working on feeling triggered has made it easier to be around her- but I still have to have boundaries and self care.

I don't think it's possible to completely avoid contact with your H's daughter. She's an important part of his life, but as Couscous said- it's not a good situation for you. One analogy might be if you were allergic to dogs ( your SD isn't a dog, I know ) and your H wanted to see a favorite dog. It's not the dog's fault that you are allergic, but you know you need to take steps to take care of yourself when this happens- limit the time you are around them. If you are "allergic" ( sensitive ) to being around the SD, what can you do to take care of you when you are around her?

It's also not a rule that you both have to visit together all the time. While the dynamics in my H's family are more on the level of irritating - it helped when we spent a small amount of time visiting together and then did separate visits. Even if the behaviors in my FOO are dysfunctional, it's familiar dysfunction. It's easier to navigate what is familiar to us. That may be the same for your H. He's used to the dynamics with his SD but it's different for you.

Don't stay with her when you visit. Staying in a hotel rather than at my parents' house is easier. It's an expense- but it's an investment on my part for me- a space to myself. If you are worried about what your H might think, or she might think- too bad. If he wanted to stay in a house where there was a pet you were allergic to, you'd want your own space.

I think we can help work on not taking things as personally but we also are who we are. I was introduced to a woman who recently was visiting the area and immediately felt on guard. I could sense something was "off". This woman was disordered and others had some bizarre interactions with her. After meeting her for about 15 minutes, I was upset for a while and nothing really happened during that meeting. Someone else might have just thought "well she's crazy" and went on as usual. I think those of us who grew up with a disordered parent are more alert around people who are similar to that parent in some way. It is how we learned to navigate our families. If something about the SD affects you, then take steps to take care of you.

[Mommydoc]

LNL, I agree the covert stuff can be more difficult than the overt behaviors. Because we have all developed a hyperawareness, we may see or be triggered by behaviors others might not notice. The high level of personal self awareness required to manage a relationship with a BPD family member is  exhausting. When the behaviors are “over the top” and overt, others  see them and I manage better. When  it is covert, self doubt can creep in, I  question myself, Am I over sensitive, am I contributing or causing this, and instead of managing my reaction, I set impossible standards for myself, indulge in self criticism, soften my boundaries and unwittingly “reward” the unacceptable behaviors by letting her off the hook.

I love NotWendy’s comments about owning our triggers, that we have a choice and we control our reactions. I remember the first time, a friend said to me (kindly), you are choosing to feel that way, what if you chose something different? I had to step back.  I am getting better  at emotional detachment from my sister. She can say almost anything to me ( and she does say pretty horrible things) and I no longer take it at face value, feel responsible or feel a need to defend or explain. When she grossly distorts facts, I have reframe/restate, which  takes energy, but it is more like being around an unpleasant acquaintance, which is tolerable in short doses. It still drains my energy, but I bounce back much more quickly. For me the realization that I can tolerate her when I have to, while setting boundaries, and limiting my exposure to what works for me, has helped me feel more empowered. Now I have to work on, not letting her rent space in my brain “post exposure.”

Your decision to get a place for your SD/SS is an excellent choice, that acknowledges the importance of staying connected but choosing to do it in a way that is less taxing.  You are limiting your exposure to what works for you.

The stuff I struggle with seems to be in "body keeps the score" territory where I experience intense emotional response to a threat that no one else notices. It's like being triggered and then getting stuck there.

I can totally relate to that. I admire how you have managed through this recent visit, your self awareness and the work you are doing with your husband to get through this and make it work for you in the future. I am curious if, with the visit behind you, if you are still feeling stuck. Are you able “close the book, put it on the shelf”, with awareness she is still part of your life, you and your husband have a good plan, but you can put that visit/ chapter behind, so you can focus on the people and activities that bring you joy?

Thanks for sharing your journey LNL. 

[Couscous]

Just thought I’d share this article by a family systems therapist about loyalty conflicts in step-families: www.sfhelp.org/fam/lc_sf.htm

I thought it was interesting that he says that the step-parent has a right to ask their partner to take their side in a conflict, and that the step-parent is supposed to come before their children. This actually makes a sense, because in healthy, intact families parents are meant to prioritize the health of the marriage over the happiness of the children, so it stands to reason that this would apply just as much in step-families.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Just thought I’d share this article by a family systems therapist about loyalty conflicts in step-families: www.sfhelp.org/fam/lc_sf.htm

I thought it was interesting that he says that the step-parent has a right to ask their partner to take their side in a conflict, and that the step-parent is supposed to come before their children. This actually makes a sense, because in healthy, intact families parents are meant to prioritize the health of the marriage over the happiness of the children, so it stands to reason that this would apply just as much in step-families.

Funny...I went for a walk with my stepmother...my father and her came to visit this weekend, and I basically spent the whole weekend with her. I told her I had this new boundary where I refer my father to her everytime he wants to talk about my brother or sister, because I am not meant to carry the parenting role with him, that she was (she is a psychologist, so my guess is she was pretty much aware of everything that was happening in our family). And she looked at me with such relief...

Another time she was talking and my father cut her off to say something trivial, to get my attention, and I told him : stepmother was talking... He shut down, like a big baby...

I could see, all weekend, how he felt threatened by my new boundaries. I was prioritizing my own husband and family, and I was referring him to his wife, and encouraging him to act like her husband...

I was never meant to be this important to him. I have my life, my husband. I am not a parent.

Stepmother or not, she is his wife, and she should take priority over me.

I now see the importance of the healthy hierarchy in a family.

LnL, I also understand why your husband finds it difficult to deal with waify behavior though... We know that BPD are more at risk of suicide... When it is a parent, dealing with this increased risk is one thing, but dealing with this risk when it is your child, is another. That's my take on it anyway.

Part of my healing journey involves making peace with the possibility that my mother or brother could kill themselves. I am unsure I could do it with one of my children. Waify is vulnerability, it's the possibility of her commiting the irreparable, it's depression and suicide ideation... For a parent, this must be incredibly hard to observe without feeling compelled to help or save.

[livednlearned]

But how many visits per year are taking place and for how long, and how many hours each day do you spend in her company during the visits? Do just the two of you take vacations?

Because of covid, not many visits.  

But even without covid I think we would be down to one or two visits a year.

H and I both have had a lifetime of disordered people. This is the first relationship for either of us where it's reciprocal, equal, peaceful, fun, real. We like spending major holidays soaking in the peace and quiet, no visiting family. So H does not press for holidays together and SD25 can't afford to fly out without our help. Plus, she has to navigate BPD mom's needs, who lives close to her.

Where it feels like SD25 still keeps my nervous system activated is through texting and phone calls. She texts and calls H every day with few exceptions. To his credit, H contains the calls to his commute or when he's working out. I am grateful that, after initial struggle (with me), he now starts SD25 calls with, "I have about 10 minutes and then I'll be doing _____."

feeling triggered can be a learning opportunity.

Agreed. I'm also embarrassed how triggered I get despite how little interaction we have.

It was said in my groups the idea of " I have not had enough recovery work to be around this person" - the idea that feeling triggered is not a good thing and if one feels that way around someone, well maybe it's better to keep a distance.

This is a great way to look at it, thanks for sharing this way of thinking. It makes me realize that looking for a solution, like staying in separate units, is a form of keeping distance. As is encouraging SS23 to visit at the same time to break the potential for more intense triangulation of H, me, and SD25.

I realized that something my BPD mother said didn't bother me as much as it used to. That felt like progress. I didn't feel triggered. It wasn't that I chose to not feel the feeling- it's that I had been able to work at not taking her comments as personally- and I had better boundaries. Boundaries are key here. However, she still is verbally and emotionally abusive. Physically- I feel guarded around her and don't sleep well when I am around her. I have to limit contact with her- for my own sake- but part of co-dependency work is self care and choosing to take care of ourselves. Working on feeling triggered has made it easier to be around her- but I still have to have boundaries and self care.

This gets to my desire to accept where I'm while not perceiving that something is wrong with me. I can see how this acknowledges that these triggers are real and there is work to be done, and things will probably be messy, even with a safety net.

If you are "allergic" ( sensitive ) to being around the SD, what can you do to take care of you when you are around her?

What I would really like is to be able to take care of myself without feeling like I expend so much energy. It's draining. I find my mind drifting to potential interactions, some from the past, where I successfully jujitsu the situation. I'm ok if this happens a bit but it happens a lot. I'd love for it to take up less time and space in my head.

It's also not a rule that you both have to visit together all the time.

This is where we're starting to move toward. It's happening with my family. With H, I have been saying, "SD25 wants to spend time with you. Maybe you two start your trip here so I say hi, then you go off and explore from here." It's getting easier because there are many behaviors where SD25 shows she wants H's undivided attention, even if it's an off shoot of triangulation energy on her behalf. But I know from past experience that H used me to babysit so he could get a break from her, a behavior that I have successfully nipped in the bud   A few nights ago H said, "SD25 is so consumed with herself. I try to get conversations going on other topics but whenever I bring something up, she goes silent."

Because I am no longer codependent, I of course let this comment hang in the air and then ask him how that makes him feel  

I think those of us who grew up with a disordered parent are more alert around people who are similar to that parent in some way.

This goes both ways for me. I can also not see the disordered behaviors and walk right into trouble. I even did this with SD25 in the beginning, although I do remember feeling something was off.

There was a disordered woman in a new neighborhood we moved into. New houses, new neighborhood, so no one really knew anyone. I was the only person who befriended this woman. She was charismatic and had medical issues, and one day I was cleaning the cat litter at her house and realized I was being used. She had a husband. Why was I cleaning her cat litter? I managed to neutralize that relationship but I realized I still go right up to the stove and touch it. Maybe it's not putting my whole hand on the stove, but I do seem to get closer than a lot of people.

LNL, I agree the covert stuff can be more difficult than the overt behaviors.

This has become particularly true for me after decades of not really noticing covert aggression.

When  it is covert, self doubt can creep in, I  question myself, Am I over sensitive, am I contributing or causing this, and instead of managing my reaction, I set impossible standards for myself, indulge in self criticism, soften my boundaries and unwittingly “reward” the unacceptable behaviors by letting her off the hook.

I identify with everything you wrote, and I would add that responding in covert ways, which I do, exhausts me. It is exhausting to work out that there is a problem happening, how to approach it, how to move from codependent to the new thing, and how to keep the equilibrium with H, who has a different level of awareness about what's happening.

I don't drink much alcohol but one night we were in the kitchen, I was feeling unfiltered from a glass of wine. SD25 was clinging to H, who was standing next to me at the stove, and I just said, "Out. Shoo. Go. Too many cooks in the kitchen."

H turned to SD25 and said, "Let's back up and give LnL room to cook" and they both moved to the other side of the island but later H drifted back. When SD25 came back to stand near him, he said, "LnL and I cook together every night and we can work around each other but three people is a lot."

I wish I could be that assertive and no-nonsense about these things all the time.

I am curious if, with the visit behind you, if you are still feeling stuck. Are you able “close the book, put it on the shelf”, with awareness she is still part of your life, you and your husband have a good plan, but you can put that visit/ chapter behind, so you can focus on the people and activities that bring you joy?

Yes and no. I can see that the trip was a success, although like I mentioned above, I wish I could be more authentic and less covert in the orchestrations to assert my boundaries or take care of myself.

What doesn't go away is my reading of SD25's behavior. The day after the kids drove north, H and I went to hike a nearby mountain. I thought to myself, "She will text the whole time we're out hiking." And she did. It feels good to her to divide his attention when he's with me.

It was passive aggressive of me to say this, but after a dozen texts or so I said, "Let me guess, SD25 has diarrhea."  H laughed and said, "Close, she's constipated."

SD25 is either a hypochondriac or somatic and overshares to a degree I find repulsive. H is a physician. My grandfather was a physician, too, but my mom and her siblings are completely the opposite. Unless a limb is dangling from their body, they say nothing. They have serious health issues and it's always chin up and let's move on. I think SD25 knows that H will always respond when she has somatic issues. He's slowly realizing something -- SD25 will develop pain that he finds puzzling and she will report back on doctor visits that make no sense to him. Then things will go quiet and she will get upset if he asks for details, so he stops. When she starts up the complaints again, he has started to mention mind-body connection. Essentially, what else is going on that is causing you stress, have you checked in with your T, are you practicing mindfulness. She ends up getting mad at him because she perceives he's saying it's all in her head. Now they're in a low level fight which I think is what she wants.

I try to put a wall between me and this stuff if I can because it's more peaceful to not know but more often than I like things crest into my time with H and then it's a we problem.

I think I have a sixth sense for what is winding SD25 up. Does anyone else feel that way?

I know it's probably confirmation bias, but I sense that SD25 uses knowledge about what H and I are doing as a cue to interrupt. Not because I'm special per se, or that any of this is personal, but because I'm special to H. Therefore splintering H away from me, or away from someone he loves to do, is more meaningful to SD25. She got H to choose her over something else he care about, so for half a second she feels lovable.

I don't know whether I'll be able to let go that kind of hyperawareness, and I don't know if I'll ever not feel triggered. Maybe it will become a simple annoyance or nuisance, which would be great.

Right now I have to focus on what it means to be authentic, not just in saying what I want to say, but in also being true to what I value. There is still a lot of lag between those two things and that's where I hope to feel a little less friction.

[Riv3rW0lf]

LnL,

Honestly, I would be triggered too, BPD or not if my H would be on his phone while walking on a forest trail with me... Can't he close his phone? Have a real one on one session?

Maybe I am misreading this but the problem is not that she is texting : it is that he is reading and answering her during moments when he shouldn't. A phone can be closed and put away.

Why did he move out of the kitchen with her? Instead of simply telling her, right away like he did the second time? His first intuition is to follow her to the other side of the kitchen, and then to come back... Is is a Freudian reflex? I would wonder too.

I am starting to wonder if Couscous is not unto something with the hierarchy in the step family? That you are special to him, but he still treats her needs first, in a way, he is compromising, instead of having clear boundaries. He is pushing YOUR boundaries to the limits too and living more leeway to his daughter than someone in a healthy system likely would...

I'm not sure what YOU can do about it, but I don't think you are too sensitive. And I want to recognize your strength in taking care of your needs through all this, and still being able to not blame him, and to be compassionate with his struggles, while giving him space to figure it out, but not at the price of your own well being. It is a fine balance, and I don't think you should be ashamed of getting triggered. This whole situation feels very triggering indeed!

[Notwendy]

Agreed. I'm also embarrassed how triggered I get despite how little interaction we have.




This goes both ways for me. I can also not see the disordered behaviors and walk right into trouble. I even did this with SD25 in the beginning, although I do remember feeling something was off.

There was a disordered woman in a new neighborhood we moved into. New houses, new neighborhood, so no one really knew anyone. I was the only person who befriended this woman. She was charismatic and had medical issues, and one day I was cleaning the cat litter at her house and realized I was being used. She had a husband. Why was I cleaning her cat litter? I managed to neutralize that relationship but I realized I still go right up to the stove and touch it. Maybe it's not putting my whole hand on the stove, but I do seem to get closer than a lot of people.

I understand you feel embarrassed, but it's a result of our experiences growing up- from when we had no control over the situation and we understand.

Yes, I have done that in the past- get too close to disordered people and don't see the "red flags" but that has changed a bit since being able to tune into how we feel and boundaries. I think we tend to "not feel our feelings" or the creepy feeling of disorder feels somehow familiar. I remember somehow feeling good if my H was snapping at me and awful at the same time. A child wants attention and will take negative attention over no attention. Perhaps when BPD mother was angry at me - it was still attention. But I have learned to be more tuned into that "icky and creepy" feeling when being around a disordered person. It may feel OK at first because it's familiar.

When I met the woman I described in the other post, even being in the room with her - I felt uneasy and after she left - that creepy icky feeling- even if she didn't actually do anything wrong- there was just something about her interactions that seemed "off". Turns out she has a lot of disordered interactions with people that I found out later. I try not to misjudge people and give them a chance, but the creepy feeling I had around her was distinctive.

[Couscous]

I think if I grew up internalizing better boundaries, I'm not sure how things would've played out.

I think that people who grow up in healthy families internalize a sense of their own intrinsic worthiness, and the way this would play out is that they would have enough self-respect and value themselves enough that they would not enter into, or exit relationships with people who do not value them or treat them with respect.

One time, SD25 texted him, "I know you think I should be institutionalized" after a bunch of escalating texts about SI that began after H told her she couldn't join our date night.

In other words, he can say no to her when he wants to... He also clearly realized what was happening during the kitchen incident you described. I'm thinking that on some level he is enjoying and even encouraging the love triangle dynamics. I can imagine that being fought over by two women must give someone quite an ego boost.

[livednlearned]

@Notwendy, I have this ... theory? hunch? that while I've worked, with a lot of therapy, towards a secure attachment style, it is not a done deal, at least not all the time.

I wonder if, even with so much work, I'll have residues of insecure attachment style from FOO that can get triggered by disordered people I can't easily remove from my life.

It's been long enough that I was wandering around completely ignorant about myself and why I did things, that I barely remember what it felt like. What motivated me, what led me to make certain choices.

When it comes to SD25, it's like I finally built a boat that floats but with her, I keep springing a leak. I keep responding to that leak like I'm going to end up back treading water in the cold sea.

Maybe that is the best it will ever be? I guess I can live with this, as unpleasant as it is. I have tools. Sometimes, reading what you and others have written, I think maybe the way forward is to accept and acknowledge that this part of myself, and instead of focusing on it as a deficit, recognize that it's part of who I am. "Hello intense reaction, let's look at what's going on. Yep, a visit is coming up. Anything need tending? How about dial down on other stuff for the time being and get settled."

Rather than what sometimes happens, which is more like "Ok, gloves on, helmet on, check check check all the safety latches, button up, zip up, check check check, buckle up, check check check, don't let your guard down, get ready for a fight" followed by "something is wrong with you. Fix it."

I'm thinking that on some level he is enjoying and even encouraging the love triangle dynamics. I can imagine that being fought over by two women must give someone quite an ego boost.

I can see how that might occur in some dynamics. I'm trying to look at it as honestly as I can because I know that shadowy stuff does motivate our behaviors, things we don't like to look at. What makes more sense when I see them together is (diminishing) codependence and this worry, that he once expressed, about how containing SD25 makes her harder to deal with, overwhelming his skill set. Like me, I think he also feels that he won't be able to handle the emotions that come with a suffering child. In that sense, we both struggle with the same thing, except my child is on the spectrum with all that entails, and his child is high needs BPD, with all that entails.

If anything, I can envision a shadowy scenario where H felt needed by SD25 when she was a child, then he met me and we developed an adult, mutually reciprocal relationship, and then he "dumped" SD25, who was having none of it as a pwBPD. But I'm not sure if that requires enmeshment, which I don't really see as a two-way relationship with them. It looks more one-way from SD25 to H with the enmeshment happening between BPD mom and SD25.

That relationship is very toxic and worrisome.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I think maybe the way forward is to accept and acknowledge that this part of myself, and instead of focusing on it as a deficit, recognize that it's part of who I am. "Hello intense reaction, let's look at what's going on. Yep, a visit is coming up. Anything need tending? How about dial down on other stuff for the time being and get settled."

This is also my approach now. Seeing it as a condition I need to manage and stay on top of. But not in a perfectionnist way, in a self-care, loving myself way.

I think, with our upbringings, it is easy for us to fall into overanalysing ourselves and others, wanting to make everything perfect... I just did it with my husband when we had an episode yesterday...

But in the end, like my psychologist stepmother told me : things shouldn't be perfect, life isn't perfect. You shouldn't be a perfect mother either, your children needs to learn to cope with imperfections and chaos, because that's what life is.  There is a difference between imperfection, being triggered and abuse.

Nothing is ever perfect. And it is ok to feel triggered too. And it is ok to lose control.

Looking at a dog snapping at her puppies relieved so much pressure off me once... We all get angry, we all snap, we all get triggered, and it is ok. It's part of who we are. We only learn to manage ourselves better by knowing ourselves better.

I understand better now why Notwendy often writes about following her internal ethic and boundaries... What I see now, is also that, and that this ethic and those boundaries are to keep ME safe from MYSELF. To take me back to ground zero when I get triggered, to keep me sane, safe and healthy.

They won't prevent triggers, they can't. I am not alone in a monastery, I live with people. But they can lead me back to myself when I do get triggered though...

[Notwendy]

@Notwendy, I have this ... theory? hunch? that while I've worked, with a lot of therapy, towards a secure attachment style, it is not a done deal, at least not all the time.

I wonder if, even with so much work, I'll have residues of insecure attachment style from FOO that can get triggered by disordered people I can't easily remove from my life.

It's been long enough that I was wandering around completely ignorant about myself and why I did things, that I barely remember what it felt like. What motivated me, what led me to make certain choices.

When it comes to SD25, it's like I finally built a boat that floats but with her, I keep springing a leak. I keep responding to that leak like I'm going to end up back treading water in the cold sea.

Maybe that is the best it will ever be? I guess I can live with this, as unpleasant as it is. I have tools. Sometimes, reading what you and others have written, I think maybe the way forward is to accept and acknowledge that this part of myself, and instead of focusing on it as a deficit, recognize that it's part of who I am. "Hello intense reaction, let's look at what's going on. Yep, a visit is coming up. Anything need tending? How about dial down on other stuff for the time being and get settled."

There's that saying in 12 steps- progress not perfection.

The analogy to alcoholism is that even if someone has been sober for years, they still are called an alcoholic- probably to remind them of that vulnerability. Someone else might be able to have a glass of wine at dinner or meet a friend at a bar for a drink, and it not lead to anything but they know they would have difficulty handling that. Still, they are sober, don't drink, and that is progress-they are considered recovered- but would possibly be uncomfortable walking into a bar.

Maybe an analogy is that, when SD is around, it's like you just walked into a bar. You've done the work, you have done recovery but you know some situations are difficult for you. You know this is a vulnerable situation. Maybe you can't avoid this "bar" but when you are there, you are on high alert.

There are certain people and times where I feel that. Like when I met that person who somehow gave me "crazy" vibes. I felt uncomfortable. I also feel like this when people are angry at me. If an encounter is not avoidable, then we can do things to mitigate it but perhaps that is a best effort at the moment.

[livednlearned]

I like that  

The intense emotions are subsiding now that the trip is over, and things feel manageable so maybe it's easier to say after the fact, but I like the idea of looking at this as a part of me that can both mean something AND be ok at the same time. Tricky! But probably the kindest way to move forward.

My closest GF pointed out something else to me that I hadn't noticed.

I confide in her about SD25, and there is ... comic relief ... in the way I describe how she behaves and how I feel.

GF pointed out that it's similar to the way I process things with my mom.

My mother is not BPD, though she is an emotionally immature, waif-like adult child. I have a lot of anger towards her, even disgust, and I have a hard time being around her for any length of time. My sibling's violence towards me goes back as far as I can remember and didn't stop until well into my 20s when he was kicked out. I moved out when I was 17 but occasionally I would come home and it would be business as usual.

At 19, I decided I wasn't going to spend holidays with my family even though I lived in the same town. It was clear to me that being in the same home meant being beaten, but at 19 I had options and was trying to exercise them.

Refusing to come home kicked off world war III primarily because it made my mom upset that I had done something bad to her, instead of recognizing I was trying to keep myself safe.

I'm starting to see how those two dynamics are kind of rolled up together emotionally when it comes to SD25.

[Riv3rW0lf]

At 19, I decided I wasn't going to spend holidays with my family even though I lived in the same town. It was clear to me that being in the same home meant being beaten, but at 19 I had options and was trying to exercise them.

LnL. I am so very sorry. I am the mother of a daughter and a son, and I can't even imagine what could push parents to abandon a child like that to the physical, emotional and psychological abuse of their other child. My parents did it too and the only way I can explain it to myself is that they didn't give a flying f... about what was going on, it was always about them and their needs.

BPD or not, your mother sounds very self-centered and she failed in protecting you. Considering the level of abuse you went through at the hands of your brother, I can't help but wonder what pushed him to become this way too... Was he born with higher PD risk or was he the result of the neglect and self-centeredness of your parents?

I recently realized that the disgust and contempt I felt toward my BPD mother came from my father, by his own self-centerness and by how he used me like a surrogate spouse from a very young age. This idea just popped in my head that maybe part of you is triggered by the triangle SD-H-you because it shares similarities with the triangle mother-father-you? With you forced in the role of mothering a grown woman you don't want to mother. Just some thoughts, I might of course be completely off base.

[khibomsis]

LnL, I'm with RW on this one. I think you are living in a most uncomfortable triangle which triggers your childhood issues, and your discomfort is entirely rational and reasonable. I think visits are difficult but the daily intrusion must be very stressful too. Because it makes it difficult for you and your husband to build a couple-hood. It must be stressful for him too or he would never have tried to get you to take the load off his back.
It is not normal for a 25 year old child to be calling and texting their parent every day, multiple times a day. And when that child is openly or covertly hostile towards you, jealous and controlling, you do right to be triggered by that. It is wonderful that your husband gets along well with your son, but then your son does not display these covert but toxic behaviours. 
I wonder if you and your husband have ever tried couple therapy? With both of you having special needs children sounds to me that you need all the support you can get.
 

[Mommydoc]

LNL, though you have referenced your FOO and abuse,  this is the first time I understood how your mother reacted. It’s horrific how she could make it about her. What a courageous and brave 19 year old you were, to protect yourself at such a high emotional cost. I am so sorry that happened to you. There are really multiple traumas you have endured. It sounds like there is more.

And what an amazing insight your friend provided. With this surfaced for you, it seems like an opportunity for healing for you, to explore your triggers, and begin to create awareness of them, hopefully working through them separately. Your SD25, is still a significant  irritant, but perhaps increased boundaries with her and continued open conversation with your husband, you can get to a place where it doesn’t take so much out of you. Your husband will benefit as much as you from setting greater boundaries with SD25; it’s not for you, it’s for both of you. You each have separate parts to own. From what you have shared, you both have the commitment to each other and yourselves to get to a better place, and agree couples therapy could help you in that journey.

[livednlearned]

I can't even imagine what could push parents to abandon a child like that to the physical, emotional and psychological abuse of their other child.

I don't get it either. I don't think I ever will.

In my quest to understand, I do see how it seems ... common? for families with difficult children to focus a majority of their attention on that child. My brother was a difficult child by any measure. He would be challenging for any family.

My family had means, though. Why not send him to a boarding school instead of pay exorbitant fees to join a country club?

Maybe my ability to get good grades, have friends and not rock the boat is part of why they didn't do anything. Maybe not expressing my feelings more overtly is a factor here.

I can't help but wonder what pushed him to become this way too... Was he born with higher PD risk or was he the result of the neglect and self-centeredness of your parents?

Genetically, he was definitely born predisposed to .. something. I don't know what, but he was a challenging child for everyone. He started running at 9 months and my parents say he never stopped. A doctor recommended a bed with restraints when he was 3, maybe 4 so my mom could sleep. Restraints didn't work so my mother was given sleeping pills  . uBPD brother used to run away when he was 4/5 which got him a permanent hospital band with his name, address, and phone number so people knew where to return him. It started like that and then it became violence, starting pretty early, and not just towards me but towards other kids in the neighborhood that he bullied.

There isn't a lot out there written about sibling violence. I remember reading an article that said something like 2 percent of children used rocks or objects to severely injure a sibling, which my brother did. The study also said most sibling violence was between boys and that it was rare for boys to be violent with sister, and that most of the violence tapered off in adolescence, which didn't happen for me. It's hard for me to make sense of.

Since my father didn't beat my mom, I assume that the violence was part of whatever my brother has, made worse because my parents were deficient. I assume it's a PD mainly because I married someone with BPD who has many of the same traits. There's probably more going on but the PD traits were the hardest to manage.

maybe part of you is triggered by the triangle SD-H-you because it shares similarities with the triangle mother-father-you? With you forced in the role of mothering a grown woman you don't want to mother.

It could be as simple as all of my FOO drama triangles getting triggered by SD25. Maybe that explains the intensity. I also have a very hard time with waif-ish people in general.

it makes it difficult for you and your husband to build a couple-hood.

Last night H and I were looking through photos to create a collage. In one picture, he is standing with his mother (deceased, BPD), his sister (estranged, BPD), his ex (BPD), while holding SD25 (BPD). He let out a laugh, and shook his head. "I almost got away!" Meaning, I think, if it weren't for SD25, he would be free of disordered people in his life.

I think he is now, more than before, fully seeing how SD25 triggers my FOO experiences, which he thought of as his burden (except when he was trying to pawn her off on me). Meaning, since he was the one dealing with her, why was I the one expressing so much emotion? I think he intellectually gets it now, having recently met my family, including my sibling.

It makes me think that if I want to feel safe, I have to make it clear that it's not healthy for me to be around SD25, independent of what anyone else is experiencing. Like Notwendy said, treat it like an allergy. The thought of expressing my feelings to that degree -- really communicating what I'm experiencing -- makes me see how deeply FOO oriented this stuff is. Because there is this messed up hero narrative where if I can hold it together, the family will be ok. I know it's unhealthy, but it's also ... scary ... to think of rocking the boat, as nutty as that sounds. I am absolutely not allowed to be crazy, ever. And by crazy, I mean put myself first ahead of everyone and anything.

I wonder if you and your husband have ever tried couple therapy?

We did back when SD25 was living with us, and it was helpful.

We're in a small town now, and it's hard to find therapists, much less good ones. I tried to find someone for S21 and it was a disheartening search. H is a physician and he said it can sometimes take 6 weeks to get urgent mental health care for his patients experiencing acute SI. I still look and ask, but covid mental health issues have definitely taken a toll  

it seems like an opportunity for healing for you, to explore your trigger begin to create awareness of them, hopefully working through them separately.

You've all been so helpful, making it easier to see this more clearly. I'd much rather detangle the knot of triggers and shuffle forward as a couple enjoying our lives, since things are for the most part peaceful. If it's necessary to express those emotions -- the desire to feel safe, or protected -- it would be ideal to do it in therapy. But I'm also willing to find an effective way to say what I'm feeling, even if it's hard to hear.

I just can't shake the kid feelings in me, you know?

[Couscous]

I was watching this clip from John Gottman today about the importance of trust in relationships and thought about this thread when he got to the part where he asks, "Can I trust you to choose me over your wife/friends?". I think we can add kids to that list too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0edZLvUTojA

In this video from Ken Adams I noticed that he talks about men who are enmeshed with their mother, and/or their families. I had been wondering if your H grew up in an enmeshed family, and hearing that his mother and sister had BPD is confirmation of this, and he will have unwittingly recreated the enmeshment with his kids.
https://www.overcomingenmeshment.com/a-message-for-partners-of-enmeshed-men/

Fingers crossed that you can find a good marriage therapist. If you aren't already aware of this, thanks to the pandemic you can do teletherapy with any therapist licensed in your state, so don't have to be limited to just your town.

Best of luck to you!

[livednlearned]

It doesn't seem quite so clear cut to me. I see a struggle, for sure. I mostly see H has worked his way out of whatever he was dealing with, so if it was enmeshment, it doesn't seem to be that now.

He's made a lot of strides, partly through our therapy sessions, learning what is healthy when it comes to having a child like SD25, and partly through this joint effort we're involved in to build a strong marriage.

I read this online:

Enmeshment implies that we have lost ourself in the dynamics of a relationship with another person. We are no longer able to define who we are, what we think, or what we need because we have blurred our experiences with the experiences of the other. If you are waking up to the idea that you have perhaps begun losing yourself in a codependent dynamic, it is not too late to set up some clear boundaries. If you tend to take on other people’s emotions, consider taking a break. Answer your phone less, be less available, say ‘no’ once in awhile, take some time out for yourself, give social media a rest, meditate, take a yoga class, go for long walks, spend time in nature, and do what you can to remember that it is not your job to worry about other people. It really isn’t. Worry doesn’t solve anything. Letting go and believing that the other person has the power to fix their own life solves your problem and eventually theirs too.

H hasn't lost himself in the dynamic of a relationship with SD25. He can define himself. He knows what he thinks, and what he needs. He answers his phone less, is less available, says no, takes time for himself, works out, meditates, goes for long hikes, spends time in nature and does more to ensure SD25 hits adult milestones than I have done with my kid 

I think what might be getting lost in this thread is that I'm beginning to realize that, of the issues I'm struggling with, I am the problem.

I don't mean problem in the sense that no one else is culpable. I mean in the sense that people have grown and made big changes and I'm still triggered AF.

The people who seem enmeshed in terms of the definition above are SD25 and BPD mom. Their relationship hit a speed bump when SD25 developed psychosis in her teens. It hit a level of severity that surpassed what BPD mom could manage, so care transferred to H. My therapist once commented that SD25's psychotic episode was a profound way to communicate how much distress she was experiencing living (primarily) with BPD mom following the divorce. Once it escalated to that level, SD25 was able to get a therapist who gave her the language, "I have a right to have a relationship with both parents" and spend her 50/50 custodial time with H.

I appreciate the persistence  and I am genuinely open to enmeshment as a root issue here. If it is, it's one of degrees.

I'm finding it hard to look at the rainbow of dysfunction in our four families (if you count our two FOOs, and then the FOOs of our kids) and try to see things clearly so I can learn and grow. Some things snap into place and the sky lights up with fireworks. Other times, even when I squint I don't see it quite fitting. For H's FOO, enmeshment seems to be most evident between mothers and daughters. His failing strikes me as garden variety codependence 

What I'm trying to figure out is why I'm responding to improved conditions as though we were still in the bunker wars of our early years together, living with SD25.

[Couscous]

Yes, I can see how keen you are take all the blame. 

I may be completely off the mark but thought this article provided lots of food for thought on the topic:
https://www.harleytherapy.co.uk/counselling/its-all-my-fault-self-blame.htm

[khibomsis]

LnL you are such a resource on this board and have enlightened my soul so many times. Now I see your wisdom was hard won.

I think NW's analogy of an allergy is spot on. I have seen it at work hundreds of times, people use something for years, decades even, then suddenly they hit the point of overexposure and bam! Allergic reaction. It is the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Could it be that you have PTSD from those early years with SD25? I am about to try hypnosis in an effort to shift some of the stuff that is resisting decade 2 of therapy. Will keep you posted if it works.

 

[Riv3rW0lf]

It makes me think that if I want to feel safe, I have to make it clear that it's not healthy for me to be around SD25, independent of what anyone else is experiencing. Like Notwendy said, treat it like an allergy. The thought of expressing my feelings to that degree -- really communicating what I'm experiencing -- makes me see how deeply FOO oriented this stuff is. Because there is this messed up hero narrative where if I can hold it together, the family will be ok. I know it's unhealthy, but it's also ... scary ... to think of rocking the boat, as nutty as that sounds. I am absolutely not allowed to be crazy, ever. And by crazy, I mean put myself first ahead of everyone and anything.

I get that.

I don't know how your husband is. For me, what also makes it hard is when I do not feel seen for who I am by my husband. And it is often times hard to know if I truly am not seen, or if I am projecting my past trauma of extreme loneliness onto my present days.

Maybe it is a mix of both. I am paraphrasing (maybe poorly) but like Notwendy often says, we bond with someone that will help us replay our internal struggles so that we can get ahead and fix them. But then... Life is imperfect, people are imperfect and who is to say we need fixing?

When I hit roadblocks with my husband, I also tend to overanalyse myself, what happened there in an effort to fix it... But sometimes, I think I just have to accept it is outside my power, even if I was part of the issue to begin with...

It's hard to put into word but I just feel... We all, here, are overly conscious, overly aware of ourselves. It doesn't help that we all see the world and our relationships in extreme details. And we try, relentlessly, to connect all the dots, so we can feel better, so we can stop the shame, the anger, the pain. So we can be our best self... But sometimes I wonder, if this overanalysing is not maybe our main issue...

It is easy to get lost in the details, then we lose track of the big picture.

A possible big picture is that : your reaction with SD might even have nothing to do with your FOO... It might be biologically ingrained in you. Competition for ressources. To a very primal level. You are the target of her covert abuse. She has created a competition for your husband's attention. And you could be a saint and still get triggered by that. Jealousy and competition are visible in the wild, they come from our history... And your husband has to juggle his daughters excessive needs with yours and his. The problem is she is..25? At some point : he will have to let her go and to stop the daily phone calls. Those are simply not healthy for a 25yo, BPD or not.

Your reaction might be emotionnally stronger because of your history, but it is valid.

All this to say: it might not be you. I personally think your reaction is normal, and many people, even without your trauma history, would be triggered by it.

And I do think that being triggered is not necessarily always a bad thing, and does not always mean we are reliving the past. All animals get triggered. Sometimes, primal instinct needs to take control to help us see, to protect us... Part of us is chaotic, primal, animal, and nothing wrong with that either.

There is something deeply unhealthy with a 25yo calling her father everyday and acting as a spouse with him... I think most women would get uncomfortable with that and want to intervene, to put back order in the hierarchy. I would say that this is actually a normal, healthy reaction.

[livednlearned]

I have to take a moment and thank you all. Truly and sincerely 

Riv3rW0lf, you are a wonderful writer and make nuance seem easy to describe. Your post communicates dialectical thinking so beautifully, where two seemingly opposite things can both be true. It is true I can be triggered by FOO, and SD25 would also be triggering for anyone.

It is true that my feelings of being triggered AF by SD25 are uncomfortable for me, and they are also strong feelings I can live with.

H has work to do when it comes to SD25, and he has been, willing to make difficult changes that put our relationship first.

I feel broken in many ways by my FOO experiences, and I feel in many ways reparented through my own efforts.

It is sometimes a burden to be hypervigilant and it is also at times a curse.

Thank you for helping me see the middle ground 

I think you also said something that touched me deeply, about not feeling seen. It goes to my struggle with what it means to be authentic, a hard thing to even describe though probably universally yearned for by anyone who has been traumatized at an early age.

It makes me realize that yes, I want SD25 to do better. Be less needy, less BPD, less traumatized, less aggressive. I want H to do better. Even better boundaries, no loyalty binds, no codependence, no enmeshment. Read my mind 

But what I really want is to feel safe saying what I want or need, and feel reassured that someone will hear me out and listen and maybe even (unfairly) anticipate what I need because being vulnerable is not only difficult but felt dangerous. I want a lot of mileage out of those moments, fair or not.

It's funny. To others here I often say, "Wait until it's a tender moment to say it if you're going to say it, and say it for you (with caveats for dangerous relationships)" but then I don't listen to my own advice.

I see a need to have a conversation with H about how I feel, not focusing on solutions, simply on through lines between my FOO, his FOO, SD25 behaviors. Do we want to do that with a therapist or can we do it on our own? It's a miracle to me that I am even with someone who could hear out just that small piece. I used to think with n/BPDx, surely there is a partner out there who is not reactive.


@khimbosis, thank you for your kind words

I likely have some version of PTSD/cPTSD, although if so, it feels like it does not impede me to live my life, which I believe is often a critical piece of any diagnosis. It is this one piece of shrapnel I feel from time to time.


@couscous, you are not shy to look away from the challenging thoughts and I deeply appreciate that. I'm sure there is part of my thinking that is exactly what that article gets at. Having grown up around so much narcissism, having married and divorced a man with so much narcissism, deep down I fear it in myself, even in healthy amounts. If I am to be honest, the self-blame at times worries me it is a form of narcissism. Difficult to say given how much violence and aggression associated in my mind with narcissism. It is a hot potato thought for me, very much connected to deep shame and guilt.

This board is amazing. It's a garden for me. I grow every time I come here to learn something 

[Riv3rW0lf]

I see a need to have a conversation with H about how I feel, not focusing on solutions, simply on through lines between my FOO, his FOO, SD25 behaviors. Do we want to do that with a therapist or can we do it on our own? It's a miracle to me that I am even with someone who could hear out just that small piece. I used to think with n/BPDx, surely there is a partner out there who is not reactive.

I am discussing with Notwendy on another thread, at the moment, just how reactive my own husband is ... It has been a hard week.  

I understand the need for safety, I feel the same way. And I have a very edgy husband, the father of my children.

I am slowly realizing though that there is a time and space for every discussions, as long as I am willing to wait for it.

Sometimes, I jump in sensitive discussions at the wrong time, and then I cannot backtrack, and I set him off.  It always ends in a disaster.

I know he can be welcoming, he has been before... But there are specific moments for that... I need to learn to wait for those moments, especially since I know when they happen. I know him enough now. I just talk too fast when I am frustrated.

Does your husband like therapists? My husband doesn't. He believes psychology is a scam, and they are just as messed up as he is (to be fair, in a lot of cases, he is right). So asking him to meet for couple therapy would put him in a highly defensive mode.

Waiting for the right moment seems to be key for me... Now to master it is another thing though...

[livednlearned]

Does your husband like therapists? My husband doesn't. He believes psychology is a scam, and they are just as messed up as he is (to be fair, in a lot of cases, he is right). So asking him to meet for couple therapy would put him in a highly defensive mode.

H is a big fan of therapy ... for other people 

That's not entirely true. We have done some therapy together, and I have to give him credit.
H will do therapy if it's important to me, and respects good providers, but he thinks there are an awful lot of bad therapists out there who can do tremendous harm. H is a physician and he has been horrified by psychiatrists and psychologists involved in patient care, and sees some pretty acute cases.

Would H see a T on his own, without my encouragement? Probably not.

Perhaps if he wandered into another BPD relationship after his last marriage, idk. 

He has been very receptive when I want to work on things. We have discussed Gottman's work, I share with him what I learn here and from books, he is very supportive of the trauma-based somatic healing I've done, we did mindfulness classes together.

I guess the more thoughtful answer is yes, he is receptive to therapy. Part of that is seeing how much it has helped people around him. Me, SD25, SD28, S21, and now SS23.

Whenever I focus on my stuff, he is pretty good about being there to support me. But if I focus on him, something deficient in him, a problem he has, then no. His defenses are equal to mine. And we are both very protective of our bio kids so that's a delicate place to tread.

Waiting for the right moment seems to be key for me... Now to master it is another thing though...

Timing is everything, I'm learning.

Also, I've learned to be light as a fairy  . I don't think men get as much practice dealing with the full spectrum of difficult feelings.

My girlfriends and I can be vulnerable together, but with guys it seems harder, though of course not impossible. H has good friends who were really important to him getting through his marriage and then divorce.

So some things I work out with girlfriends, knowing that H is likely to feel flooded. With him, it's more about finding or creating moments where I can raise an issue, and then give him the opportunity to turn it over in his mind, safely.

He's a fixer, and I have that trait, too. We both have to monitor these tendencies together, and I have to recognize that I have a higher comfort level with the super deep, whereas for him it's a bit more of a foreign environment.

One thing that we don't struggle with is reactivity. If we do, it's usually me, and it's usually been building for a while and it's over quickly, with me taking responsibility pretty quickly. When he's aggravated or irritated, it is so far from the type of anger that I grew up with, and was married to previously, that it feels entirely manageable.

We've only been together 10 years and didn't raise our children together. I think child-rearing puts so much more strain on people. It's been the source of most of our issues, but it's been fleeting, mostly because our kids are young adults now. If it weren't for SD25 we might not had any urgent reason to see a therapist together at all. Kids really do bring a marriage to the mat 

[Couscous]

So I’m thinking that the book Wired for Love would be worth reading with your H. Here’s a Tedx talk with the author, Stan Tatkin which gives a pretty good overview of his thesis: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2xKXLPuju8U

[Notwendy]

Reactivity was a big deterrent to talking about difficult topics in my marriage. Basically, we could not resolve anything by talking. H would react with anger. Me, being afraid of angry people would start to cry. He'd see me cry and get even more angry. All it did was escalate. So I stopped talking to him about anything sensitive or personal. I think at first, he was relieved. Yay, wife doesn't want to talk but eventually it occurred to him that I had had given up trying and that wasn't a good thing.

That was how things worked in his family. Nobody spoke about anything personal or difficult. One could talk about a book, or a TV show, or the weather but it didn't get deeper. I realized also that conflict wasn't resolved in my family by talking. BPD mother got her way because we were afraid of her rages. So neither my H or I had a role model for this. However, by my teen years, I had friendships where we did talk. I knew how to do this and found it frustrating that I could not in my marriage.

At some point, H figured out the marriage was heading for trouble and agreed to counseling. I had brought it up before but he wasn't interested.

I knew that the counselor had to be someone I had not ever met- or he'd think the counselor was aligned with me already. So I had him choose someone. It helped to have someone there as a moderator. Outside of counseling- if something came up to discuss, I'd say "let's do this at our next session". She didn't let venting go on too far- and she would walk us through our reactions.

She knew better than to get into hurtful emotional childhood stuff. I was more willing to do that than H. But having someone there helped keep the emotional reactivity down.

I don't think it helps to push someone into self reflection if they aren't willing to do that but the moderation and role modeling less drama in discussions helped. If you can get your H to agree- and choose the counselor he'd be most comfortable with, it's worth a try.

[Couscous]

Sigh...after letting that TedX video sink in, I woke up this morning realizing that my H and I have major fault lines running through our relationship and need to get into couple's counseling pronto. What Stan Tatkin said about how when you are a conflict avoider you will appear threatening to your partner, and that "a relationship can survive fights but what it cannot survive is the loss of safety and security," hit me like a ton of bricks. I now realize just how threatening our relationship feels for me due to my H's conflict avoidant style, and how little safety and security we actually have.  

[Riv3rW0lf]

Couscous,

Only you know best what is happening in your relationship. But... I would invite you to look at it with a grain of salt. I say this because recently, I really jumped to conclusions, got debilitated, started wondering if my husband was BPD ! I was just triggered.

Breathe.

No relationship is perfect, and it doesn't always require a fast fix.

When you say you don't feel safe and secure, what do you mean?

Do you guys talk? How much per week? About what? Is he truthful? Is he committed? Not what you think he thinks, but what he actually does for you and your family. Is he there? Does he provide? How is he with the children?

Breathe again.

With our history, we get triggered. In therapy, I have found I tend to panick sometimes. I once convinced myself my husband was abusive because of what a friend, who saw him three times, said ! and this doubt stems from my childhood. I should have stood by him and told her to sh*t it, she is not in a position to judge my relationship at all, and she knew nothing. It was projection.

Yet, I ended up talking about it with my therapist about it, and the prick told me I had to discipline him like he was a dog. I call him a prick because he had much more issues than I do...the guy didn't even remembered my name last time I saw him, after more than 5 months seeing him... Not exactly a reference...

Thankfully, I came here, and at that moment, Im1109 pointed out to me some very real truths about marriage and love and it reminded me to first look for balance.

I was triggered recently again, and this time, thankfully Notwendy was there.

Especially for us, who were in a covert incestuous relationship with our father : we have to be very cautious, because we get dissatisfied easily, we are looking for excuses to run and disconnect emotionally.

When in a good place, I can see him : not perfect, but present, helpful.

Before jumping to conclusions from your feelings on a sentence, find balance. No marriage is perfect.

Maybe your marriage is unsafe, but right now, I invite you to look back on yourself : are you triggered right now? Do you see things how they are?

Here to listen and help you find balance again if you need it, friend.

[Couscous]

Thanks Riverwolf 

In fact I wasn't actually triggered; it was more of an a-ha moment and it explained why I have always felt this background feeling of insecurity in my marriage with my super agreeable, nice-guy, passive H. I have no doubt that our marriage is a big step up from both of our parents' marriages, but I am not satisfied with merely having a "non-toxic" marriage and really would like to at least take a shot at having a healthyish one.

I actually emailed a couple's counselor who uses Stan Tatkin's approach yesterday without having talked about it ahead of time with my H, and I told him half-jokingly afterwards that I have decided I would like us to attend counseling and went ahead and contacted a therapist, but that I didn't bother to check with him ahead of time since I knew that he would agree to going. He replied with, "Ah, yes, well that's fine since I need to be in therapy in order to be able to say no." At least he is aware that he has a problem with this. But I am fully aware that a marriage is a system, and that I also contribute to the suboptimal dynamics, but since H never speaks up about anything I do that bothers him, I see no other choice for us but couple's counseling. 

[Riv3rW0lf]

So does your lack of safety comes from the fact that he doesn't tell you the truth ? That he keeps everything in?

I've been with someone that might have been similar to this before. It ended in an explosion from him and he left me. Which for me was a godsend. But I  am still a bit puzzled on why he never said anything. I remember moments where I would basically ask him what he was thinking, what he wanted. He never seemed to care.

I had my issues, ended up cheating on him emotionally, but to be fair : he was completely spineless and it didn't felt like he cared at all about our relationship, nor even about himself. Once I asked him point blank if he was happy with me and he said : "well it's not like there is anyone else I could be with. If I am not with you, I will be alone."
Who's whants to hear that kinda thing? feeling this way indeed doesn't make the relationship feel safe, because it wasn't a decision on his part.

I divert. But just to say that indeed, when someone is unable to share what they think, their needs... For me, it created a feeling of void. And I kinda knew it would burst open at some point and it did.. and his reaction and how he acted was actually quite harsh. I always felt it had been a bit unfair. But that I deserved it kinda too.

I remember trying to anger him, to push him over the edge, if only just to get a reaction out of him, something to tell me he cared enough to want to tell me... When I tell my husband I don't like something he did, it's not just for me, its for us too in the long run... To not build resentment, to not let our partnership die... I expect truth from him too. I want to know how he feels about things. It's proximity.

So yeah... Reactivity is scary, but at least I know what is going on in his head.

I hope therapy helps you guys figure out the best way forward.

[Couscous]

So does your lack of safety comes from the fact that he doesn't tell you the truth ? That he keeps everything in?

Correct. He has a powerful Subjugation schema and suppresses his needs/desires/opinions/preferences to such an extent that I think he honestly believes that he doesn't have needs/desires/opinions/preferences of any kind. His mother trained him well.