The Steep Learning Curve

[Our abuse recovery guide]

I have avoidant attachment so close relationships are challenging for me, as I tend to isolate myself too much. Too much isolation on my part makes me feel desperate for company and way too friendly to the wrong kind of people.

At my lowest, I felt I had an avoidant attachment style but over the years that has changed. Do you see the same thing happening for you? Do you see signs of a secure attachment style in your friendships?

There is research I came across somewhere -- it was around attachment styles and friendships -- that people who thought they would be likable tended to be liked. It is likable to be likable 

It seems to be connected to confidence which I am learning relies on quite a bit of courage. I used to think people were either confident or they weren't, but lately it seems like there is a choice. And that choice can feel vulnerable.

Sort of like: People choose to feel confident when they are in an unfamiliar situation, and more confident people make that choice more often. At least that's what it seems to me as I get older. I'm more likely to decide wth, why not view this moment with confidence.

[livednlearned]

I have avoidant attachment so close relationships are challenging for me, as I tend to isolate myself too much. Too much isolation on my part makes me feel desperate for company and way too friendly to the wrong kind of people.

At my lowest, I felt I had an avoidant attachment style but over the years that has changed. Do you see the same thing happening for you? Do you see signs of a secure attachment style in your friendships?

There is research I came across somewhere -- it was around attachment styles and friendships -- that people who thought they would be likable tended to be liked. It is likable to be likable 

It seems to be connected to confidence which I am learning relies on quite a bit of courage. I used to think people were either confident or they weren't, but lately it seems like there is a choice. And that choice can feel vulnerable.

Sort of like: People choose to feel confident when they are in an unfamiliar situation, and more confident people make that choice more often. At least that's what it seems to me as I get older. I'm more likely to decide wth, why not view this moment with confidence.

[zachira]

Livednlearned,
In response to your questions, I am developing secure attachment. I view my avoidant attachment as something that will never go completely away, though with time the secure attachment will be what I hope to have most of the time. At one time, I was obsessed with being completely healed from all the abuses I have suffered and suffer at the hands of my disordered family members and their flying monkeys. I now accept that these are life long sorrows and take time to feel the sorrows on a regular basis. It is like a parent losing a child. The parent will always need moments to grieve the loss of their child. I have known and seen many people who have life long losses, and in spite of all the losses, have mostly happy productive lives while regularly feeling their pain and sorrows. The road that has led many of the members to be on this site, is growing up in a family in which all painful feelings were stuffed and being expected to be agreeable all the time by the disordered people in our lives no matter how badly we were being abused. The reality is life is hard, and we have to make real efforts to face our pain to be able to genuinely enjoy life and be able to be authentically kind to ourselves and others. I find facing my life long losses, is slowly giving me a quiet peaceful confidence I never had before. It is the moments in which I lose my bearings, feel lonely and out of touch with myself, that I have poor boundaries in situations and with people, and I truly don't like myself in these moments, though I am less judgmental about being human than I used to be. Thank you for your ongoing support, compassionate listening, and great questions.

[livednlearned]

It is the moments in which I lose my bearings, feel lonely and out of touch with myself, that I have poor boundaries in situations

Oh zachira, this gave me such a profound moment of introspection.

Feeling lonely => being out of touch with myself.

Do you think loneliness is driven by being out of touch with ourselves? I mean, I know we think of loneliness as a function of people around us. But maybe at it's core it's about us being with ourselves.

If hurt people hurt people, and people who feel more likable are more likable ... then maybe loneliness is about losing touch with ourselves.

 

[zachira]

To join in on the discussion of transactional relationships, I find there are basically three kinds of relationships. There are healthy relationships in which there is genuine caring and empathy for both people in the relationship. There are transactional relationships in which both members use each other, and the relationships are superficial. I have observed many transactional relationships in which both members do the most horrible things to each other at times, than restore the phony nice to the relationship, so they can continue to take advantage of each other and/or to unite as flying monkeys to harm others. The third kind of relationship that most members seem to be describing having with the disordered people in their lives, is what I will call the one way street relationship in which a disordered person completely takes advantage of another person and never gives back.

[zachira]

Livednlearned,
From my perspective, being lonely is often about isolating myself from people to the point that I am feeling emotionally needy and dysregulated, and thus not taking care of my needs for healthy relationships. Timing is key in avoiding getting emotionally overwhelmed. When is it time to walk away or end a conversation? What healthy habits do I need to practice daily so I am present with my feelings and emotionally available to be comfortably present with myself and others?

[Riv3rW0lf]

I have pondered what you said about being able to show our teeth also means our kindness is genuine. It makes me think about how disordered people have a public image that they try to sell to everyone which cannot be maintained indefinitely, thus close family members and long term acquaintances usually get to eventually see the ugliness behind the facade.

I see the parallele. I don't see the facade of narcissists and borderlines as kindness. There is always something else spilling over, like an overly big need for the "kind act" to be validated much more than needed. Real kindness doesn't require constant validation. It just is. My brother acts as a savior, he listens but it simply doesn't feel genuine. The kindness he shows, while it can help at times, often has a sour savor... Like an insistance? Or backhanded compliment, or instead of listening, he tells you how you feel, and help whatever he thinks you are feeling. If he is in point, it can appear as kindness, but there is a ickyness to it. But then... On the moment it's harder to see... So I wholeheartedly agree that it is much easier, and healthier, to focus on ourselves and what we can do and change in us, to attract the right kind of persons, and naturally be repulsive to abusers.

I don't mean to hijack the subject here,  but I think it applies on that thread... I was gaslighted by one of my client yesterday. I am doing their work for them under a contract that will last many years, and twice now, I've gotten there and lost a lot of time because they weren't ready. The first time went ok. The second time, they didnt have the right truck and had me lost 1.5hours because I had to follow them to a garage, then they didnt have the required keys and equipment that they were supposed to provide. The third time, I said I would be there at a specific time, and they okayed it. But then didn't show up. When the guy finally arrived, he told me, surprised, that this kind of timing would never have worked.

So I decided to bring the discussion to the client, because there was a change of scope warranted for unrelated issues here that forced me to report the work (out of our control, both of us). I brought up all the time lost for me and my subcontractor because their team wasn't ready (didn't know where to go, arrived 45minutes late, etc.). I wanted to open his eyes to all the loss I am incumbing on this lump sum project because of their lack of coordination.

And I was sent back a letter filled with gaslighting, asking me to take responsibility and coordinate their team internally, how the other contractor were completely autonomous (they weren't, the client still always had a representative present), how I was expected to know exactly were all their infrastructure are (they are often in wooden area, on their property, for which the roads are not always visible from Google). I mean... He is paying a lot less than he would if I was completely autonomous too, so he is gaining from this arrangement.

Maybe I was wrong to bring up my losses, I am learning to do business... But my email was overall very polite, while his was filled with gaslighting and threats (by bringing up the past consultant). A simple no would have suffice. I've seen signs, before, that this specific guy was a bit off... He seemed angry at one reunion, and I still don't know why, never shook my hand and just left. And the guy I do the work with told me he heard him many times scream in the office at someone else, like... Having tantrums.

The last change of scope, he made himself look like a hero while giving me backhanded compliment on my work, which is simply unnecessary, it's a business environment and I am a consultant not a client. He wanted me to do more because I'm the end : he likes what I do for them and it's not too expensive too. But somehow, he mentioned how I couldn't be as good as others because I didn't have the ressources, but they were happy saving money... But I've seen the other consultant work and it is filled with redondandy and mistakes. This was just unwarranted.

So... Now I kinda know more who I am dealing with, and am stuck in a client/consultant position. This is new to me. And I am unsure how to proceed. I decided I would take the cut, and cover the loss. A simple no would have suffice on their end, we'd have negotiated. The gaslighing and "setting unattainable expectations" were unnecessary, but he chose to go this way ... I do wonder if he'd have dared do this if I was a man, honestly.

Showed the email to H, and he said I should stop working for them . That's how bad the email was. Now I have to call him today to manage this... I am stressed.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I'm actually wondering... No way there are so many people with PDs around... So one has to wonder : are these merelly the strategies our culture and society are teaching children to survive? Gasligthing, manipulations, attacks

Our trauma made us sensitive, empathetic, we double guess ourselves much more than the general individual. Which is by bad, most of us a incredibly stubborn and resilient too, we survived worst, we know we can rely on ourselves to find solutions and get where we want to be, despite loneliness, despite pain. We do this without hurting or discharging ourselves on others, because we are aware of the pain this attitude creates. Sometimes I wonder if we are just maladapted to this culture? We don't understand those strategies, we are sensitive to them, and it makes it hard to navigate relationships with people embarassing the culture and strategies taught in it without second guessing them.

[Riv3rW0lf]

So... Business and work relationship are, by default, transactional. And there is no room for taking things personal. I talked with my client, and he wasn't exactly angry, but he warned me about my image, how I had to keep my frustrations for myself when it comes to their lack of coordination, as this is not the kind of relationship they were looking for, and that I would have to learn to deal with their way of doing things.

He was ok, on the phone. And I don't really have a sour taste in my mouth. But it made me realize that ... It was my right to request a deduction, and it is their right to say no. Still, I feel like I f*ucked up, and a lot of my trigger had to do with fear of backlash and of not being forgiven... Which truly stems from my BPD mother and how I was raised... But most people will forgive and give second chances, yet I hate having to ask for one, and it scares me to rely on the mercy of others, which is likely why I mostly keep to myself.

We weren't given mercy... Were we? It makes it hard to navigate and accept our own shortcomings.

[Notwendy]

I don't know how many PD's are out there, but the family dynamics when there is a family member with a PD are very similar to families with a family member who has another disorder and also addictions. I think this results in a larger number of people with these behaviors than actual PD's.

I saw an episode on Dr. Phil where a teen had anorexia, and the whole family was focused on that. This gave her a lot of emotional power. If she refused to eat, the family would be all over her emotionally. They were all enabling her. Naturally, they were terrified of her making herself ill if she didn't eat and because of this, she had emotional power. It's similar to my BPD mother having the emotional power in the family, or someone with an addiction and the whole family worried about them.

A while back, a co-worker snapped at me. I went back to my office and hid, just like a child might from an angry parent. She came to see me later to apologize- saying she was stressed over something and it was not my fault. So I get it- being scared when facing an angry client, or upset co-worker, even if the situation is different.

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
You are wisely distinguishing between being nice to manipulate others and genuine kindness. I feel a warm place in my heart when people who are able to be genuinely kind have body language that is kind and loving. It feels icky when the person pretending to be nice is doing so to get away with abusing others.
It is horrible to be abused in a business relationship. I have talked to people who have their own business who could pick and choose their clients, who told me they simply turn down the worst clients, usually ones they risk losing money on because of their unreasonable demands (never mind the stresses involved in dealing with them). Dr. Ramani, an expert on narcissism, is adamant about not giving the wrong people second chances, as it just leads to more abuse and worst abuses. We are all a work in progress (as nobody gets people right all the time at first) in learning to distance ourselves from disordered people as soon as we can.
I feel sad for you, as I know how upsetting it can be to be treated so badly. It is so hard to share how we feel with people who are not capable of hearing another point of view that is not their own. You are wise to end your business relationship with this guy if you can, as this guy seems to think it okay to treat you badly. I agree with you, that he probably would not dare to treat a man like this. Women who work for paid wages are resented by a lot of men, particularly if they are smart and in postitions to make key decisions. If you continue with the relationship, what boundaries do you need to set for yourself and for the client, that maybe should be spelled out at the beginning of all of your buisness relationships? What are the deal breakers that would terminate a business relationship? So many businesses these days have long contracts written by a lawyer to protect the business from unreasonable losses and lawsuits.
I hope you will soon feel better. It can take a few days to wind down from being abused like this, and bringing this to the thread is not a hijack, as what you are describing very much feels like what I am dealing with the man in the park.

[Methuen]

So... Now I kinda know more who I am dealing with, and am stuck in a client/consultant position. This is new to me. And I am unsure how to proceed. I decided I would take the cut, and cover the loss. A simple no would have suffice on their end, we'd have negotiated. The gaslighing and "setting unattainable expectations" were unnecessary, but he chose to go this way ... I do wonder if he'd have dared do this if I was a man, honestly.

Showed the email to H, and he said I should stop working for them . That's how bad the email was. Now I have to call him today to manage this... I am stressed.

Riv3rW0lf, if a friend told you this was happening to them, what advice would you give the friend?  Why?  What advice do you give yourself?

I am not a business person.  But.  A) You deserve to be listened to and heard, which should translate into a change of behavior on his part. Perhaps this was the first time this happened? B) You deserve to be treated respectfully.  Can you say you felt heard and respected?  So, as an independent observer knowing nothing about the situation except what you have described, I would suggest that what this dude would learn if you take the cut and cover the loss, is that he can do it again.  And again.

Just like Zachira (and all of us) are working to attract healthy people in our lives as friends and acquaintences, and not get caught in the webs of more disordered people, I am going to speculate that you also want to attract the kind of client who respects you and doesn't expect you to pay for their disorganization with your time.

A fair negotiation between you and him would have been for you to split the difference.  My dad used to haggle with people this way. But he expects you to cover 100% of the extra time resulting from his lack of planning.  Why shouldn't he pay 50% of the extra costs in time?

Zachira said: "I have talked to people who have their own business who could pick and choose their clients, who told me they simply turn down the worst clients, usually ones they risk losing money on because of their unreasonable demands (never mind the stresses involved in dealing with them). Dr. Ramani, an expert on narcissism, is adamant about not giving the wrong people second chances, as it just leads to more abuse and worst abuses."

I totally support this.  My dad was a small businessman.  In fact, he was a one man business.  Like you, he started slowly.  But his connections and reputation grew, and he would always take on a new client in the beginning, but if there was no "mutual benefit" to the relationship, he wouldn't take them a second or third or forth time.  He ended up making good money (which my mom benefits from because he got sick and died after his retirement). During his working years, his reputation grew, and he got to the point where he had to turn down work. Eventually, he got to pick and choose his clients and only keep the best ones he wanted.

Many people here know my story of returning to work out of retirement to set a boundary so that my mother couldn't demand my servitude to meet her needs.  Fifteen months after accepting that job (and coming out of retirment), I fully acknowledge that I was working for a dysfunctional boss, and despite loving what I was doing and loving my clients, I had to leave because the dysfunction of the boss was driving me crazy and making me miserable.  I recognized that with a dysfunctional mom in my private life, I wasn't prepared to suffer a dysfunctional boss in my work life too, especially if a main driver to my working was to avoid a dysfunctional mom.  So a month ago, I changed jobs.  My clients were crushed.  It was a terribly hard decision.

I realize you are still growing your business, and that you want to keep the clients you have happy while continuing to grow a longer client list.  

So, is this a client worth keeping?  Has he treated you well in the past? Or is there a significant risk of more future headaches?  Is his behavior a trigger to you?  How many chances will you give him?  With each chance will he feel entitled to another chance?  Will it get harder to "release" him, the longer you keep him as a client?  Can you set up clear expectations with him at this point, and feel safe doing so? Or... listen to your good husband's advice...?

On a lighter note, maybe an unexpected Judo throw would help him see he should respect you.  Just kidding.  You are your own boss. You get to decide how to proceed with this dude.  Don't let him assume the driver's seat, by simply giving into his gaslighting.  You can lay out your expectations from here on forward.  You've got this.

[livednlearned]

The last change of scope, he made himself look like a hero while giving me backhanded compliment on my work, which is simply unnecessary, it's a business environment and I am a consultant not a client. He wanted me to do more because I'm the end : he likes what I do for them and it's not too expensive too. But somehow, he mentioned how I couldn't be as good as others because I didn't have the ressources, but they were happy saving money... But I've seen the other consultant work and it is filled with redondandy and mistakes. This was just unwarranted.

So... Now I kinda know more who I am dealing with, and am stuck in a client/consultant position. This is new to me. And I am unsure how to proceed. I decided I would take the cut, and cover the loss. A simple no would have suffice on their end, we'd have negotiated. The gaslighing and "setting unattainable expectations" were unnecessary, but he chose to go this way ... I do wonder if he'd have dared do this if I was a man, honestly.

Riv3rW0lf, what would a man do in response to this guy's comment?

I am a bit fixated on identifying and addressing misogyny since it is overt in my family. First born boy is precious, second-born girl is good for doing dishes.

Only when I assert myself is there even a hint of interest or maybe sometimes a seed of respect. It took me into my 50s to learn to assert myself.

You asserted yourself. The other guy did what many guys do, he jousted.

Do you want to work for this person? It is like haggling in another country. Do it well and it's a game. But maybe you don't want this particular game, you want it straight up with none of this bs. Either way, you do a great job and you know it, the reasons for your frustration are perfectly normal and even if you're new to building your business many people walk away from difficult clients. Some will take difficult clients and spread the pain to other parts of the team.

It would take me days to overcome a joust like this, I'm not quite there yet. And sometimes I hand the damn lance or sword or whatever it's called and then stand there waiting to see what they'll do. Some lessons we learn a few times and then some.

[Riv3rW0lf]

So... Thank you all for you replies and wisdom. I've had to take a real long look at this. Like your father, Methuen, I am a one-person business right now, and I'd like, in the future, to see it grow enough that I have a team working with me; a team I can rely on when I need to catch a little break too ! This is new for me. In my past positions, I was shielded of having to deal with clients directly by the project managers and president. I still meet some clients, but when it came to project scope, change of scope and being paid, it wasn't me. Now I do everything, from A to Z, and am slowly learning the ropes of all this. My previous boss was also abusive... You were right to switch position, especially coming back to work ! You are too wise for this now, and with all your experience, you deserve much much better.

Looking back on what happened, I think I was actually unfair too. I requested they cover the extra cost stemming from this "God clause", as well as the loss of time due to their disorganization. I should have, from the start, split the losses from the "God Clause", which I ended up doing when my H pointed it out to me. I agreed, and I could see immediately how this was not proper business. I still think the client could have just pointed this out and did not need to go the extra length of gaslighting and defensiveness. I felt he was triggered and chose to bully me into place, instead of just : pointing out the obvious lack of fairness, to which I'd have agreed immediately... It kinda showed his true colors though, so maybe it is a good thing. Now I know I will need to switch my strategies with them, and adapt. It's like marrying into a dysfunctional family and having to learn the rules.

Requesting them to cover it all was out of character for me, and I think it stems from my own resentment right now... This client takes a lot of my time, much more than other clients... I "won" them when I first started, they were my second client, actually (the other one is great and easy to work with) and in order to get them, I offered them the preferential treatment that I would offer as a sub. They are a VERY big firm and I needed an incentive for them to switch the work over to me. So they pay me a fraction of the rate of my other clients.  Despite that : he still acts like he is "gifting" me work, somehow. Which... Kinda take away my achievement? I won them, fair and square, because I was aggressive and offered the right image, I gave them an incentive, met them, showed them what we could do. Won other contracts from the big boss during a meeting because I answered right. It was me winning them, not them gifting me anything.

I ended up calling him after the email exchange, and it was business as usual, like nothing happened. So I thought : ok, it's possible I misread the whole thing. But when I brought up the disorganization and how I would appreciate them being on time, he cut my off and started telling me it was not his problem and to deal with the other manager... The thing is : this guy has been my go-to from the start of the project, and all of a sudden, I was expected to know who to deal with and when. He said I was expected to know how to reach all their infrastructure, and be completely autonomous. To which I answered : "every time you will switch consultant, there will be an orientation period. You cannot expect me to know exactly the location of all your infrastructure if your own crew don't." So...  I didn't completely bend over... But from what I gathered, he expects me to act as if I am "part of their team and culture"... He wants it to be smooth, and he doesn't want to hear about my frustration. This is how they work, and this is how it will be, and I need to adapt. I mean... Fair enough, in a sense. I get that they are also evolving in a chaotic, disorganized business. They lost a lot of information when the more experienced staff left retired; a lot of people left to work somewhere else. But, no he didn't hear me and he didn't want to either. Not really. He is basically seeing me as a "part time employee", instead of a firm he is doing business with. I guess this is the risk of being a "one woman business". I am the employee and the CEO, and the client can feel lost as to which hat I am currently wearing. I can certainly accommodate their needs, and already agreed to help them organize the work I am doing to make transition easier in the future. I revamped their inspections forms entirely, and they loved it and so made a change of scope to get me more money to make more addition and upgrades. But again, he thinks he is gifting me the work, when in fact, I am selling it... There IS a difference! an important one, I WANT to help my client and work for them, but they need to realize I am WORKING for the money, not being gifted anything. They don't get to save me.

He mentioned again how they were "accommodating me" because I didn't have another person to complete the visit with for safety, and reiterated that the other contractors didn't need that... But I know that the past contractor were also being accompanied, because the representative they send with me talks a lot, and he told me! So... he manipulated truths, to make them look like the savior of my small business instead of looking at this for what it is : a business agreement for which they are getting A LOT because my rate was very competitive.

I guess the boundaries got crossed. Half-way during the phone calls, he actually started patronizing me, coaching me about how to do business. This guy is my age, and only worked for big firms prior to working for the firm-client (I worked 6 years out of province, in another language, for a small business low on resources with VERY varied tasks), yet he started telling me it's normal to "wait on a client for up to 4 hours" on jobs. And how I needed to be cautious for my image, because I wasn't giving a good vibe. I realized it wasn't worth it to argue with this kind of person and I "let him win", I said, Ok, I will cover the expenses and absorb all the loss. AND HE SWITCHED. He changed his tone and started telling me how it was ok to be frustrated, how I could always repay myself elsewhere (basically telling me to overbill on another contract I have with them), because he had been so kind already to extend the scope of the project (for work I NEED TO DO TO GET PAID FOR), but he couldn't set a precedent, that they would show mercy if I corrected my ways.

I was starting to feel like I was wrong, but writing it out truly helps me see just how messed up it actually is.

I am in for three years for the initial contract. And I got another one directly that will take me a few months. Then the change of scope because they wanted me to help them organize their projects and facilitate transitions between consultants, if needed. So I will need, like you said Zacchira, strong boundaries when I deal with him.

To a certain point, I actually don't mind bending over and letting him think he is the big boy coaching me on business, honestly... Especially on this. I was still able to secure some money for my sub, and I will cover the rest of the losses... Maybe not everyone will agree with this but : at the end of the day, I can bill it elsewhere (he is so kind, he even gave me the idea!   ). If he won't allow me to be upfront and respect me as the CEO of my firm, I will sneak my power in. It doesn't mean I will say yes to all his whims and requests. I am noticing a pattern in men doing this with me... telling me how to do my work. Never mind that I am the CEO of my own business, have a master thesis in hydraulics, and finished my engineering degree with honors, of course not : they always somehow know better than me. This is frustrating at times, but if it means he will be giving me more money because he wants to "save the woman in need", then go for it, pal. That's the game I can play, Livednlearned. Let him think he wins... Pay myself back when I can. It's not the kind of relationship I was hoping for with them, but if it is the kind of relationship they want to offer, I will have to adapt myself to not get completely f*cked over.

He wrote me yesterday again, and he was hinting that he wanted me to go back to take measurements at a site I already visited (I couldn't take the measurements because THEY didn't have the key!)... This will be a hard no, unless he wants to pay for the visit. This is what I mean by disorganization. How am I supposed to know the freacking key won't work? Ain't this their problem to provide me with keys that work? Or should I also go to a freacking locksmith for them too? I mean, seriously.

I will not let him drive. But I might need to let him think he is driving for the next three years. Maybe I just "play a part", now that I see he likes to get the good role and save... Maybe I act as a woman in need to get him to give me money. It's not something I particularly enjoy doing but I am starting to realize that always being upfront and sticking to my values simply does not work...  I need to be smarter than this, and stretch my boundaries a bit.

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
You are learning a lot about how to deal with all kinds of people and situations, something the disordered people in our lives generally can't do. You are wisely realizing that you will have to deal with this man in similar ways that you do with your disordered family members: not sharing your feelings or too much information. With other types of clients, you can surely have more rewarding relationships, and figuring out what you are looking for in future clients, could be the key to your business succeeding beyond your wildest dreams.

[Riv3rW0lf]

You are learning a lot about how to deal with all kinds of people and situations, something the disordered people in our lives generally can't do. You are wisely realizing that you will have to deal with this man in similar ways that you do with your disordered family members: not sharing your feelings or too much information. With other types of clients, you can surely have more rewarding relationships, and figuring out what you are looking for in future clients, could be the key to your business suceeding beyond your wildest dreams.

Zacchira, I think you edited your comment before I could answer. But I liked the way you put into words what I needed to do, to not give him too much feedback, and do what I need to do to fulfill the terms of the contracts while dealing with him only when absolutely needed. I already strategized that I would contact the representative much more to let him know directly when the visits were scheduled, to circumvent the poor management of the supervisors. I know this specific guy cares about doing his job right, so I know he will be there on time, or will at least let me know when and why he cannot meet the proposed schedule.

As for the main clients, I hadn't really opened up emotionally or anything, he is the one that brought up "feeling frustrated" and I didn't confirm nor infirm this statement. I just let him talk. I make it a point to keep things on a professional level with my clients... I was mostly asking for better coordination on their part to lower my loss of time, and they refused to improve, and stated I am the one who needed to adapt to them. This is where I need to be smarter on ways to manage this so that I don't end up being taken advantage of beyond what is reasonable.

I am also aware I am a perfectionist, and it is likely that many clients will not be able to "meet my standards", which are sometimes even too high for myself... This is something I am however willing to work on and improve, to make my clients feel more at ease.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Zacchira, I've been meaning to ask, have you gone to the park again these past few days? Have you found your feeling of safety back while there?

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
Thank you for asking if I have been to the park. Yes, I have and I do feel differently about going there, as I am cautious about not running into this man, while still able to enjoy my time there. So far I have not seen him, and I do think he is more afraid of me than I am of him.
I keep learning new things that are painful to learn yet help me to make better choices and feel better in the long run. I think my days of being friendly to nearly everyone without healthy boundaries in place are a work in progress. I have been way too friendly to complete strangers my whole life, so making changes is going to take some hard work on my part. If we pay attention, there are lots of clues about who a person is, even if we have just met her/him. I find that healthy safe people have body language that is congruent with what he/she is saying and doing. I often have said that I do not consider a person a friend until we have disagreed on something and still want to be friends even if we have very different points of views about certain things. Disordered people seem to want everyone to see things their way and any kind of disagreement that is not in line with their points of view can get ugly very fast. This man in the park seems to only know how to deal with his discomfort about being around me by insulting me, definitely not the type of person I want to have any kind of contact with.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I was answering on another thread and I had a Ha! Ha! moment about myself, and about what is likely happening with my neighbors, and with other people I meet, truly.

Personnality mirroring : I do a lot of it. Often despite my best intentions. I will see myself doing it, and will fail to stop myself. This happens naturally for most people, on a reasonable level, but I think I do it as a form of protection, hiding who I am, and to fit in more easily. I am quite good at it, and while I sometimes "get made", most times, it actually works,as long as the relationship remains on a superficial level. I think I do it more than the average person, as a result of having a BPD mother.

It made me realize, that a lot of the ickyness I feel is a result from this mirroring, when I mirror a personality type I don't enjoy; one that is more judging. Then I leave feeling bad. I think a lot of my work will have to be to learn to remain true to myself in all context...judo helps with that, because it boosts my confidence, but it's still quite hard to completely manage this tendency I have of hiding behind my interlocutor's personnality... What a good defense I developped over time though.

I remember thinking, quite often : "I don't like who I am when she/he is around..." A piece of wisdom and truth I didn't understand back then, but now I do... It also explains why I started feeling so lost when H left. He is the one I mirror the most, probably also the closer to who I really am, because I don't feel exhausted or bad with him, ever. And being with him kinda boost my own ability to be myself in public? Does that even make sense?

I also think my ickyness when it comes to my immediate neighbor is that she is trying to mirror me, and often fails to. She tried different personnalities type to mirror me, but always fell short. It's hard to mirror a chameleon. But I didn't understand the root of the ickyness until now. I probably mirrored her too at some point, until the first stabs, then I stopped and took a step back, which made me notice her mirroring of me, but it came across as terribly fake, which threatened me.

Here's a short article about it : https://www.16personalities.com/articles/personality-mirroring-how-it-can-help-you-and-what-to-watch-out-for

I need to read more on it though...

Anyone relates to this?

Edit : it seems to be also the crux of the borderline disorder. So chances are I learned this from my mother. I don't think I have an unstable sense of self like her, I don't have the panic of being alone, on the contrary, being alone has a calming effect for me, because I get to just be. So maybe just a learned behavior, worsened by trauma?

" The chameleon effect has been shown to have a positive impact on human social interactions. According to Tanya L. Chartrand and John A. Bargh, two psychologists who were the first to explore the phenomenon, very empathetic people are more likely to imitate others than people who aren’t.

When a person is truly empathetic, they pay more attention and form deeper connections with the person they are interacting with, which makes them more likely to mimic.

However, when people who aren’t very empathetic attempt to mimic someone else, the gesture can ring false and have the opposite effect of the social advantages one typically gets because of the chameleon effect.3"

Zacchira, it makes so much sense for me now too why your psychologist told you to focus on how YOU were feeling inside when in the presence of the disordered person. if we mirror someone who isn't safe, then we become, for a while, like them? But if we keep focussing on ourselves, we get to protect ourselves from our own empathy, staying safe within ourselves instead of feeling like them? Is it a steep learning curve because we are going against our own mirror neurons and empathy?

[zachira]

I have known for a long time that it is unhealthy to mirror certain emotions like anger. Your perspectives and the article are really helpful.This is an article I will reread many times. I realize now that I need to notice how I feel inside when with another person. If I am not feeling good about myself, than I need to keep the relationship at a very superficial level. If being around a person brings out the best in me, than this is a safe person to mirror. Some of the most wonderful people I have/have had in my life, are/were always kind about giving me feedback, and their feedback helped me to be more successful in building healthy relationships with them and others. These wonderful people also see/saw me as a worthy person with many fine qualities. The main focus in these relationships is/was alway on connecting with some helpful feedback on occasion, mostly about improving our connection. With the disordered people, the focus of the relationship always seems to be on their being in control with some pretty destructive criticism of my persona once they had me seduced by their false facade of niceness and/or helplessness. The disordered people have used my too many personal disclosures, as a means to control me and character assasinate me all of a sudden. I will use what you have taught me today for the rest of my life. It is like the piece of advice my therapist gave me about noticing how I was feeling inside when in the presence of a disordered person. I add to that advice that it is always important to notice how we are feeling inside when around another person. When it is safe to do so, we can empathize with another safe person. I am so happy for you, that you have a husband who you can safely mirror who surely is also the kind of father your children deserve. As far as the man in the park goes, I never felt seen by him and indeed I wasn't. I was someone who gave him the kind of attention he craved until I showed some of my vulnerabilities and this made him want to run.

[Notwendy]

I used to also feel like a chameleon and people pleased. I think it's inevitable that we learned some dysfunctional behaviors- because they were functional in our disordered families. The only emotions that were tolerated were BPD mother's. If someone mirrors it is someone else's emotions. People pleasing is out of fear. If we actually disagreed with someone, maybe they won't like us. Or maybe we won't like them. This was too much of a risk to take in our families of origin.

I think one difference is our self awareness of these behaviors- and the motivation to work on changing them.

[livednlearned]

This is so interesting Riv3rW0lf.

It explains some of the social discomfort I feel being around SD26.

Looking back, she actually began mirroring me more when I started to have boundaries with her.

And the more I felt her mirroring me, the more boundaries I developed.

I wondered if I was taking things too far. That article makes me think it's a form of self-preservation when you feel someone being disingenuous. When I feel her mirroring me, it feels manipulative. I don't want to give her more to mirror so I share less.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I used to also feel like a chameleon and people pleased. I think it's inevitable that we learned some dysfunctional behaviors- because they were functional in our disordered families. The only emotions that were tolerated were BPD mother's. If someone mirrors it is someone else's emotions. People pleasing is out of fear. If we actually disagreed with someone, maybe they won't like us. Or maybe we won't like them. This was too much of a risk to take in our families of origin.

I think one difference is our self awareness of these behaviors- and the motivation to work on changing them.

I am glad you mentionned people pleasing Notwendy ! I see people pleasing and mirroring as two different things. Mirroring comes naturally between humans. I read somewhere else that part of the brain containing mirror neurons get affected by trauma as well, and we mention often on here how empathetic a lot of us became... Like mind readers, hyper vigilant. Maybe we can be people pleasers at times too, but I don't think mirroring is the same... mirroring is done often unconsciously.

I noticed it first when I went at a conference. After my presentation, I talked with various people I didn't know at all, and I noticed myself talk differently, move differently. Everytime, I would adopt my interlocutor general attitude and body language, which resulted in them feeling more at ease. It wasn't on purpose, and when I left, I was exhausted and couldn't wait to be by myself. It is just something I do naturally, however. And I actually feel I do it "well", likely because of empathy. Most of the people I talked too did seem at ease.

I think it helps me "uncover" who those people are too, if only I would listen to myself... Like I mentioned : some people I mirror will leave me with a sour taste afterward, and I don't like who I was with them... They didn't do anything though, I don't know them, but I feel off and will sometimes have this thought that "I don't like who I was with them." And so, I now think it has to do with this mirroring... Connecting to an unsafe energy and personalizing it, when I should, like zacchira mentions often : focus on myself, on how I feel, on who I am, and stop the mirroring. I just didn't know, until now, that I was doing it this often!  

We weren't just scared, we were also asked constantly, to take on the emotional loads of our mother, to live their emotions with, if not for, them. To survive, we had to be them, this being the only way to predict their erratic behavior.

LivednLearned, this sounds like what is happening and happened with my neighbor. It makes sense that the more boundaries you put in place, the more confident you become, the more she will fail to mirror you, and the more you can see and uncover the real her. People with BPD tends to be incredibly impressionable, they are attracted to narcissists for a reason, they like people that feels in control and in power, because it gives them someone to mirror that makes them feel good about themselves... So the more confident and powerful you seem, the more she will want to mirror you. It makes perfect sense to me. But this is just my own opinion from my readings, so to take with a grain of salt...  

Zachira, I am glad this is helpful for you. It is a big realization for me as well. I don't know how it will help me from now on, but I do think it will.

[Notwendy]

Mirroring is interesting and I think it's a part of our interactions. One thing I find interesting is that when my mother is angry about something, she says the same things my father would say.

My mother mirrors me to such an extent that it feels creepy. Sometimes if I say something, she adopts it and uses it as if it was hers, sometimes saying the same phrase to me later. She will ask probing questions and if I answer, she may latch on to that and later use it. If BPD involves a poor sense of self, it's as if she's looking at other people to build her own persona with. Or to have her different personas with different people.

I agree- we all do this to some extent and I think that there's a range of "normal". I think most of us speak and behave differently in the workplace than at home where we are more relaxed and casual. I wouldn't speak to my boss or a client with the same casual tone I speak to my H with.

But if we have an authentic sense of self- that core doesn't change. We are still who we are in these interactions. I have seen my mother with some friends and she's an entirely different person.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Mirroring is interesting and I think it's a part of our interactions. One thing I find interesting is that when my mother is angry about something, she says the same things my father would say.

My mother mirrors me to such an extent that it feels creepy. Sometimes if I say something, she adopts it and uses it as if it was hers, sometimes saying the same phrase to me later. She will ask probing questions and if I answer, she may latch on to that and later use it. If BPD involves a poor sense of self, it's as if she's looking at other people to build her own persona with. Or to have her different personas with different people.

I agree- we all do this to some extent and I think that there's a range of "normal". I think most of us speak and behave differently in the workplace than at home where we are more relaxed and casual. I wouldn't speak to my boss or a client with the same casual tone I speak to my H with.

But if we have an authentic sense of self- that core doesn't change. We are still who we are in these interactions. I have seen my mother with some friends and she's an entirely different person.

I agree that pwBPD take mirroring to a whole other extent. When I think of my mother, the only "core" I can sense is anxiety. I think the main difference is that their mirroring is not born from empathy and understanding of the other, which is why it also feels creepy and threatening. It's born from their lack of self and a need to be defined by their observer... They become their observer.

While regular mirroring is an empathetic connection that can allow us to help others feel more at ease. Natural mirroring is not an absorption of the other self, just a deep connection to it. But if we can't control who we connect with, if we have an empathy level that is so strong that we automatically connect to everyone, then we are bound to connect to the wrong people too... In a sense, it is also born from a lack of healthy boundaries too, even if it is not to the level of someone with BPD.

[Notwendy]

Yes, the mirroring from my mother isn't empathetic. It's a need based quality- she needs this to fill some need of hers, but the need is so large. I feel a sense of overwhelm when she does this. She can sense the "block" on my part. I don't want to be used for her own needs.

One of my boundaries is that I don't discuss my father with her.  It was his birthday a while back and she called me. "It's a sad day for me and I suppose you too?" That's how she starts. Nope, not going there. So my reply is- yes, and change the subject.

Another thing she does is express her feelings of discontent over something and someone, and then push me for an approval. She'll say "wouldn't you do the same" "would you" .. and keep asking. If I say yes, she will then consider this an approval, say to someone else "NW said you shouldn't do this". The idea is for her to not be accountable and shift the blame to me or someone else. I will not do that.

Normal empathy would be different. It might sound the same but the purpose is different. Someone might say "this is a sad day" and I might reply- yes, I understand it's a sad day for you" while mirroring their tone of voice. But the objective is to be able to connect with someone, not a need based interaction.

Or I may say to a friend. "It's my father's birthday and that's a sad day for me" and the friend would say in the same tone of voice, "yes, I understand" and I will feel better that I have shared my feelings. Now with my mother you do not share feelings with her. She will grab on to it. If this happens, I feel used. It doesn't feel better.

[zachira]

I think I am finally understanding how the narcissistic people in my large disordered extended family work. They mirror the grandiosity of each other. Family members often comment on what a great family we have. I find that people and families who are truly healthy do not need to brag about themselves, and instead are quietly comfortable being their authentic selves most of the time with the people they have close connections with. I am very unpopular with most of my family members because I refuse to mirror their grandiosity.
I find myself truly interested in others and remember what they share. It is so rare for another person to show any interest in me, though the few close friends I have are genuinely interested in me and I am genuinely interested in them, and there are deep emotional connections along with shared interests in having new experiences that teach us new and wonderful ways to see things.
I think I sometimes shut down people mirroring me when they show no interest in returning my interest in them. I often do not stop showing an interest in people when they have really never shown much interest in me. I am well aware that "How are you?" can mean the same as "Hello". There was once a man who went to a party and when asked "How are you?" responded with "I just shot my mother." and nobody noticed what he said.
For most of human history, humans lived in small groups of 40 people or less. Everyone knew everybody else, so there were more connected relationships with less superficiality. Today a person meets around 10,000 people in their lifetime which is extremely overwhelming and taxing. We have to have two systems in place for dealing with people: one for the superficial relationships and one for the few people we are closely connected to. One of my best friends who comes from a very loving close family says we are lucky to have five close friends in our lives. Healthy people can navigate superficial relationships and close relationships. Healthy people are more aware of when a superficial relationship can become a closer one and know when to move from a relationship becoming too enmeshed to return it to a more superficial one.

[Methuen]

I've read the article on mimicry posted by RW.

I'm trying to integrate "mirroring" into the context of my own mother. On a "neediness" scale of 1-10 (with 10 being the most needy), my mom would be an 8 on a good day, and a 15 on a bad day.

I feel like I'm in a blind spot.  I don't see how she mimics me at all, but that's probably because I'm "missing it". Head in the sand?

We've already told our kids that when the time comes, we will go into assisted living.  Both H and I agree on this. Truthfully, I would rather want a legally assisted death than to put my kids through the torture my mother is putting me through.  I honestly wonder if I am the most miserable now that I have ever been.  At least when I had a career and was raising a family, those things were paramount in my life.  Now, the most paramount thing, is surviving my mother.

My mother and I are so completely different.  Oil and water.  We don't value the same things.
 We don't have anything in common.  Pretty well everything she values I don't. I will have to watch for the mirroring.  The only thing I have been able to think of is that she used to vote one way, and in the 18 years since dad died, she now reports she votes the other way (more aligned with our views), but that is probably a lie too.  I don't believe anything she says.  I suspect everything is a manipulation to meet some "need".  

I am certain there is a big gap in my understanding of how "mirroring" fits my current situation.  

Zacchira I am so genuinely happy that this is a light bulb moment for you.  You are so deserving of finding the pieces that can help in any way, to explain what you have been through.  It makes me smile for you.

I am still waiting for a light bulb moment. If anyone who knows my story, can see the mirroring, I'm very interested in this topic.

[zachira]

Methuen,
I appreciate how kind you are always to me and other members.
This is just an idea that came into my head on how to avoid mirroring your mother, and it could be helpful or not helpful at all. I am wondering if you might try avoiding eye contact with her, as it could be that eye contact possibly begins and ends the mirrroring. Does standing or sitting further away from your mother help? Does it help to have other people around? Does standing or sitting in certain positions help? Would it help to have your husband physically take a position that shows support for you when in the presence of your mother? One position that comes to mind is when you are all sitting down having one of his legs right in front of you like a wall between you and your mother. I did some body mind therapy many years ago, and this is when I first became aware the my family was not normal and was abusive. I use a lot of body mind therapy to return to baseline, which I know you do as well. My heart hurts hearing how much you want relief from your mother, and your wish to not be so affected by how she treats you. We are all keeping are fingers crossed for you that soon you will experience some long term relief and be able to fully enjoy your life.

[Notwendy]

Methuen, I should clarify that my mother and I are not alike. The mirroring is for her to use for her fake persona. For instance, whatever she may feel about my father, she asked me for a response about how I feel on his birthday so when she's talking to someone else she may repeat it to them.

With me, she's herself. I don't see empathy on her part.

I hear you about your situation with your mother. Mine is in assisted living and she's just as difficult there too.

She's been abusive to the nurses, her nurse care manager. She calls me almost every day with a new complaint. She won't do any of the social activities. She complains that she doesn't have family to visit but doesn't make the connection to the way she treats them.

She says she doesn't have family to help her and has to do things on her own. Then, who moved her before she lost the house, who sold the house and her car for her, who has tried to help her organize her finances?  She did none of that. She has family near her and even if I am at a distance, I have done a lot of things for her.

And she takes victim perspective in conversations. Discussions about something simple are circular arguments.

One example is she needs to see the dentist "I have no one to drive me there".  "Mom, they have dentists come to the assisted living " followed by an indignant wail. "Oh NW, I just can't believe you! you are taking away the comfort of familiarity, I want to see MY dentist, not just any old dentist" "That dentist doesn't care about my teeth!"

To which I replied, have you ever seen that dentist? "No".  So how about you make an appointment with that dentist and see if you like them? "OK".

"I'm your mother and you are my daughter and don't speak to me in that tone of voice!"

Interesting about your decision about assisted living one day. I looked at them for my parents when my father was ill. My parents were as difficult about this as my mother is now and I can see how her feelings influenced both their behavior then. I also decided that if I needed that level of assistance one day, I'd consider one, so that I didn't put my kids through the kind of behavior my parents were doing. My H didn't experience this with his parents, so he's more reluctant. It's interesting how our perception of what we'd do is influenced by our experiences with our parents.

No matter what our choices though, we are not our mothers. Even if you stayed in your own home, you'd not behave like your mother. You'd cooperate with home health, and the people who assist you. You wouldn't place undue demands on your family members because you care about them. Same as if you were in assisted living.

I know your situation is more difficult than mine is, due to the proximity of your mother to you. My mother's FOO lives near her and they keep boundaries with her- they have seen her behavior.

We solved one set of problems for BPD mother by moving her, and now she has created them at assisted living too.

[Riv3rW0lf]

This is just an idea that came into my head on how to avoid mirroring your mother, and it could be helpful or not helpful at all. I am wondering if you might try avoiding eye contact with her, as it could be that eye contact possibly begins and ends the mirrroring. Does standing or sitting further away from your mother help? Does it help to have other people around? Does standing or sitting in certain positions help? Would it help to have your husband physically take a position that shows support for you when in the presence of your mother?

I agree with Zacchira. My stepmother also suggested I don't do eye contact with my mother, or lower the amount of eye contact while with her to find my baseline.

It's possible that you do not mirror your mother, I also don't see exactly how I mirror my mother, but then I don't need to change how I speak and move a lot to mirror her... We aren't alike, but she still raised me. I don't need to mirror her to take on her emotional load via empathy. The biological bond makes it so that I just take the load. Our emotions become enmeshed to the point where I don't know who is who. Last time, she wrote me a letter describing exactly what I was feeling as if those emotions were hers ! How scared and small she felt, but I am pretty sure those were my emotions, my C-PTSD, yet she had personalized those emotions for herself, then blamed me for them. She'd call me "mom", she had absorbed who I am for herself, and it left me confused. So it might be that there is no mirroring actively done because of the biological bond, it's just there. Which is why I like Zacchira's suggestions, to use body positioning to help you protect yourself from the emotional load and enmeshment... I haven't been able to do it, personally, but I have to believe this is possible.

The mirroring I mentioned was more in the context of strangers, of new acquaintances, of neighbors. I tend to instinctively mirror people to make them feel at ease (this is NOT the same as what a BPD person does). It's like I can connect more easily to them. I think I just have a lot of mirror neurons, and I suspect many here do too, as a result of our upbringing. Like ... Part of a developmental arrest maybe? But maybe not everyone. This is something that will either resonate or not. It might not. And it's ok, we are all different.

What I realize now is that, like Zacchira said, I should only connect to people I love and I know are safe, and control this habit, so that I don't end up connecting to the wrong people. Or I have to figure out how to cut the connection once established if I realize this is not comfortable... Just trying to figure out how I work.