The Steep Learning Curve

[zachira]

We are all a work in progress in not taking on the toxic emotions that disordered people dump on others, particularly close family members. With a disordered parent, we are really challenged because so many of the overwhelming emotions we are feeling have been projected on to us since early childhood. Perhaps doing a regular comparative list of what emotions, thoughts, etc. belong to the disordered parent and what belongs to us could help, with maybe a big wall or some protective figure drawn between the lists. Certainly we can remind ourselves as we need to of how proud we are of the progress we have made in becoming separate decent people from the disordered parent. I am currently doing trauma release exercises (TRE), which I began doing with my body mind therapist many years ago. There are many TRE exercises on the internet. I find that changing the ways I carry myself, better posture, helps me to feel better and people respond in more positive ways to me, including disordered people keeping their distance.
How have you progressed in becoming a separate person from your disordered parent? What do you want to continue to work on in becoming a separate person from your disordered parent?

[livednlearned]

The mirroring I mentioned was more in the context of strangers, of new acquaintances, of neighbors. I tend to instinctively mirror people to make them feel at ease (this is NOT the same as what a BPD person does). It's like I can connect more easily to them. I think I just have a lot of mirror neurons, and I suspect many here do too, as a result of our upbringing. Like ... Part of a developmental arrest maybe?

It's interesting being here with those of you who have mothers with BPD. My mother has so many similar traits and yet I'm almost certain she does not have BPD. But she does have a very weak sense of self. I think of BPD as someone who has no sense of self. To not have a real sense of self is an order of magnitude more difficult, I would think, than having a weak sense of self. Not just for the person with BPD but for people around them.

Mirroring seems like it is connected to boundaries. I don't think I had a sense of normal boundaries because my BPD sibling had zero, including when it came to physical boundaries. My emotionally stunted parents taught me that having boundaries is what caused my BPD sibling to get angry, and I imagine it felt unsafe to have a strong sense of self because it was too much individuation for the kind of family we had.

I think having a weak sense of self set me up to mirror people. If you have weak boundaries, do you think that makes you more susceptible to mirroring? Is that the connection.

The way SD26 mirrors me feels different. If I'm talking to someone with a different accent, or someone who has different energy, and I notice myself mirroring their accent or behaviors, I notice it right away and try to get a handle on it. I don't think SD26 notices it, or sense there is anything wrong. I think she's trying to merge or fuse in order to solve the problem of me having boundaries.

How have you progressed in becoming a separate person from your disordered parent? What do you want to continue to work on in becoming a separate person from your disordered parent?

This is a really good question, zachira. For me, I substitute "family" for disordered parent. They all go together, they're a unit.

Things I am able to do now, or things that have improved since ending my estrangement 5 years ago:

I have no expectation there will be genuine closeness, or vulnerability or intimacy with members of my FOO.
I share very little of my life.
I protect my son and H, I speak candidly with them to manage visits in advance.
I do not stay with family when I visit.
I limit the time we visit or try to time our visit when a sporting event is on tv so there is a distraction.
I do not drink alcohol so my inhibitions and boundaries are not impaired.
I say no to situations arranged without my input or consent.
I do not get involved in family decisions that have nothing to do with me.
I do not ask follow-up questions when my parents mention my sibling and his family.
My parents no longer put pressure on me to appease my brother.
When my mother is in full waif mode I let there be silence.
I end conversations first.
I have several important phrases I use to get myself out of conversations that typically end badly.
I have been blunt with my son about ways I protect myself and why. He deserves to know the degree to which he can trust them (or not).

Where I struggle and have work to do:

Too easily I try to include them in our schedule when I visit. I give an inch and then give them a mile.
I carry a disproportionate amount of exasperation about decisions they make. It takes me a while to let go.
I feel like a little kid trying to get their approval, especially my father who has many narcissistic traits.
The repulsion I feel for my mother makes it hard to be in her presence for more than a few minutes. Sometimes it's seconds.
I think I'm doing ok when I'm around them only to have a back spasm, or I get vertigo or a migraine.
I struggle with the knowledge that I am the family garbage can. I have done some work but it's still quite painful.

One new thing has come to light.

My mother confuses me. She is very waif-like but recently I noticed something that I consider covert aggression.

She's always been loose with facts and expects people to guess what she's talking about. She's not a smart person, she's not curious or interesting and often has nothing of substance to say. But she likes to be the center of attention and she talks a lot. Sometimes to make it tolerable to hear her talk, I will narrate her story in my head so I don't become enraged. It's confusing to me why I feel such rage about this. Narrating like this helps get myself to a place where I can listen like a neutral observer, curious about this person without letting her impact me. I never understood why talking to her makes me so angry so quickly.

A few months ago she told me a story about how she says innocuous things on purpose to wind a group of women up in her friend circle. She thought it was amusing to say something just to get them wound up. It occurred to me a few days ago when I talked to her on the phone that she does this with me.

She's the kind of person who tells your story, one that you told her, to other people while you're sitting there. So for example if I told her how I had something happen to me one night walking home, she will retell it to people as though it's her story, but all the facts will be wrong and the story will be unflattering.

I think when she wants to be the center of attention and can't, which often happens with me, I think she brings up a story I told her, distorts the facts, to wind me up. A few nights ago, I was talking about my son applying for a job, and she said, "I remember last time he applied he didn't get it because they gave it to someone they thought was better." Then I get baited to correct her, and she is not the center of attention, and I am agitated, which is a form of negative engagement.

When I discover things like this -- my mother using covert ways to get needs met -- it takes a while to figure out how to get centered. It helps explain why I feel so enraged by her even though she's waif-like. Similar to SD26, the aggression is covert.

One thing I remain conflicted about is answering the question about intent. If the intent is to inflict harm, I feel angry. If the intent is to get a scrap of attention from someone abused, I feel compassion. I seem to be constantly swinging between those two, trying to find a neutral place that sits on a solid boundary.

[zachira]

Livednlearned,
I have so much respect for all that you have learned and your ongoing courage to continue learning. (Your online name makes so much sense now.) What I also find to be one of my most challlenging dilemmas is how to decide to respond to disordered people based on what I think their intents are for attention. (I use the word intent in the plural, because I believe we will never understand all the reasons disordered people behave in the ways they do, whereas with healthy people we can often easily understand their simple intents.) I am so grateful to so many people who have been kind to me when I am acting like my dysfunctional family members, in moments when I overshare inappropriately or show too much interest in other peoples' lives by asking too many questions when I am feeling lonely for human connection. I do want to be kind to people I can make a difference for and not enable what I would really call evil behaviors, like how you describe your mother baiting you. Currently the extended family is planning my NPD sister's annual large family birthday party. One year I was asked to give the party and I calmly refused. It was not out of jealousy or anger, simply I felt that giving her these big birthday party family events when nobody else in the extended family gets one reinforces her narcissism and that nobody else is as important as she is. Not sure what to say about your mother baiting you except you are well aware of how disordered she is, and anything you share with her, she will find ways to distort it. My mother too shared with people things I told her right in front of me distorting what I told her that made me feel like I did not exist, and that mom was advertising how free she was to distort my reality and negate that I was indeed a separate person from her.

[Methuen]

How have you progressed in becoming a separate person from your disordered parent? What do you want to continue to work on in becoming a separate person from your disordered parent?

This is such an important question.

I have progressed.  I can't put a number to it on a continuum.  I don't think I feel her feelings for her anymore.  That's  huge. When she sends me texts (sometimes multiples in a day or sometimes only 1 a week), I now recognize that she is trying to get me to feel her feelings for her. She's trying to transfer all that fear, sadness, anger onto me.  I no longer "supply" her.  That's major growth on my part. But it makes me frustrated and angry as to what's she's doing.  As we all know, there is nothing I can do to stop (control) her behavior, so I can only control my reaction.  Since she still frustrates me and I still have emotional reactions to her, I clearly still have a lot of work to do. I don't know how to stop these emotional reactions.  They happen a lot because she is so NEEDY and always creating a crisis to get attention.

For example.  A week ago, she finally got to see a geriatrician after waiting a year.  My H transported and went to the appointment with her.  She "performed" for the doctor.  He made the comment while looking at her file: "you appear to be doing better than I was expecting".  Her "performance" for doctors is typical.  She's feeling good.  She has friends come visit so she is social.  She is not lonely. Blah blah blah. On the other hand, when she is with us it's the complete opposite - she's in acute pain, or chronic pain, or complaining about the neighbours...always negative.  Often blaming.  Always waify.  It was a long appointment - 60 ish minutes for his first assessment. Often when she she lied or left information out, my H would interject calmly with some reminders and facts.  He added a LOT. At the end of the appointment, the specialist agreed with the family doc that her many medications for all her multiple ailments should stay status quo.  Kudo's to the family doc and cardiac specialist.  From her perspective, it was a great appointment.  She could keep living independently because she has such great support from friends and family, and it looked to him like she was doing well.  The next day, she got her regularly scheduled macular degeneration shot. That was two appointments in 2 days for my H. The evening after the eye shot, we get a phone call from her.  She's clearly dysregulated.  She's called a friend to the house because something is wrong with the eye that got the shot.  She can't see out of it.  It's painful.  She's in distress.  The friend thinks we should take her to emerg.  So we interrupt our evening, but not before I sound off that this is just another attention seeking event because she had a good geriatrician appointment (note: borderlines will create chaos when everything is going well so they get attention and don't feel abandoned...yes?) So we drive to her house, transport her to emerg (this is an ordeal to move her), and wait there for 2 hours with about 10 people in front of us (a small emerg room with 1 doc on call). She tried to visit.  We said we were tired and kept reading our books. Then a suicide attempt comes into emerg.  So after waiting 2 hours, and hearing about the suicide attempt, she decides her eye is feeling better and wants to go home.   We don't argue with her.  It's her decision.  It's almost 11pm and with so many people ahead of her, she figured out she would be sitting there all night. Emerg has contacted her opthalmologist but not heard back.  So we take her home and then go home ourselves.  The next day the ophthalmologist contacts her.  I don't know what mom said, but she must have been feeling better, because her ophthalmologist did not call her into the office to be checked over.  Two days after that this text came from her:  "I can almost see the writing on TV now.  Am I ever happy."  Then two days after that this text: "I'm so terrified about my eyesight". She had called her ophthalmologist again. That was yesterday.  This morning my H took her to that appointment, and he just texted it went well. No surprise.

Her text saying "I'm so terrified about my eyesight" triggered an emotional reaction from me.  I was really p_ _ _ ed off.  I did not feel her feelings for her.  I am not in the least scared about her losing her eyesight.  In fact if she did, it would likely bump her up the priority list for a care facility of some level and that would force the issue of care. Then the professionals could deal with her.  If she treats them badly, at least they aren't family, they are professionals getting paid for their work. So to answer your question Zachira, I think I have separated my emotions from hers finally.  There was actually a time in my life I would have empathized with her, but those days are long gone. I refuse to be her supply anymore. I see through all the charades and her disingenuous behavior. Meanwhile, I have not figured out how to NOT have reactions to her attention seeking, neediness, dysfunction, demands, or temper.  

My feelings to her are either neutral or negative.  On a good day they are neutral.  What I mean by that is I don't like her or dislike her.  The feelings are the same I would have for passing any stranger at a sidewalk intersection. There is absolutely no emotional attachment any more. I don't tell her anything about my life.  She doesn't even know I changed jobs, or that I'm sick. I don't want a relationship with her because she causes me distress. On a bad day however, I disdain her, dislike her, avoid her.  Generally we "respect" people we admire for some positive qualities.  I don't think my mom demonstrates any positive qualities so it's hard to respect her as a person. If she wasn't my mother, and I didn't have this obligation, she is not a person I would choose to spend any time with, ever.  

The thing I am "working on", is how to avoid having emotional reactions to her behaviors.  My T told me that everyone has emotional reactions, and wanting to not have them isn't realistic.  But if I've emotionally detached from her, shouldn't I be able to not have strong reactions to her?

My mom lives in close proximity.  She is so needy and demanding.  Her texts are constantly in my space.  She is an impossible elderly undiagnosed borderline. Her doctors do not indicate any understanding about her emotional dysfunction. I definitely need to figure out how to manage my reactions, because I'm having way too many of them with her proximity and demands.  It's affecting me too much.  I shouldn't have to work instead of enjoying retirement just to avoid her.  And I believe it's also starting to affect my H who took over the transportation and shopping and does all the lawn mowing and house repairs etc.  She sends all her stupid texts to him too - trying to transfer her feelings onto him when I don't reply.  He sees through it all too, and is also frustrated, but his reactions are more measured and he recovers from them quickly.

If your 87 yr old mother says she needs to go to emerg the day after a macular degeneration shot (when she has a history of endophthalmitis  after a shot in the other eye) how do you not take her?  Endophthalmitis is a legitimate emergency, but just because she had one in the past, doesn't mean this is another one. I actually suggested calling an ambulance, but my H refused, and said he would go get her.  This annoyed me, but in that moment, anything and everything was annoying me. So of course I went along as the daughter to check her into emerg otherwise the optics are bad when she tells all her friends that her "son" (he's actually the son-in-law) took her to emerg.  {Aside: interesting that she calls him her son...?} I have lifelong family connections to many of her friends.  They are good people.  I care about what people think of me.  

I've done so much work on myself, but I still have so much more to do.  I just don't know where to go with it next... or how to manage these negative reactions.

When LNL described her mother and the covert aggression, it fit my mom so well.  Like LNL, I seek approval, but more in the form of broader social approval. My mom twists things to fit her narrative.  Yesterday when she forgot her medical card for an appointment, she blamed me because she said I said she didn't need it.  This made me blow up when I heard about it later.  The night we took her to emerg, I reminded she didn't need her credit card (because where we live, we all pay taxes to receive medical care when we need it, and we don't make private payments at hospitals).  I made sure she had her health care card before we went to the hospital and I was the one who used it to check her into emerg.  But notice that when SHE forgot her health care card for her eye appointment with my H, it was MY FAULT because she twisted the fact and lied and said she didn't bring it because I said she didn't need it (I said she didn't need a credit card).

As LNL said, I am fed up with being her garbage can.

It's like death by a thousand cuts.  Aaachh!  How do I get off this gerbil wheel of negative reactions, cs it's definitely affecting my well-being.

[zachira]

Methuen,
I have so much respect for you for learning not to take on your mother's emotions, as I know it is a lot of work that takes courage to do so while experimenting with different strategies.

Your next challenge may be to perhaps let go of what other people think of how you are taking care of your mother and become indifferent to their judgments and reactions. I can't tell you how many people think I am a horrible person for standing up to my abusive family members who are two faced and charming.

Another challenge may be to continue to explore more options for no longer being so directly involved in your mother's care. You are far from the first person to have to do this, and there can be ways to do so. If you were to no longer be so directly involved in your mother's care, you will definitely be criticized by people who do not really know you or care about you. It is how you feel about what you have done for your mother that counts, and what anybody else thinks does not matter as other people are mostly clueless about the kind of person your mother is, (though I was quite surprised at who does get how abusive my family is once I opened up about it and went low contact with them).

My heart is with you, as are the hearts of many members on PSI. We will keep looking for ways to help you, and are keeping our fingers crossed that some real relief is coming soon whether it is because your mother's status has changed or you have found ways to not let her behaviors no longer affect your wellbeing to the point you are enjoying life most of the time with the people who truly care about you.  

[livednlearned]

I have lifelong family connections to many of her friends.  They are good people.  I care about what people think of me.  

This is a big light bulb insight for me, Methuen.

Caring what people think of me is like an invisible third rail.

To others it looks like unfettered access to wide open space but to me there is a 50 foot wall that stretches to infinity. It's probably part of my values system and also connects to the obligation part of fear, obligation, guilt (FOG) I feel when conflict is in the air.

I am certain that SD26 senses this wall. She sees that I have less room to maneuver because of this value.

I don't see how to ignore this wall because there is so much genuine value in these (often mutually) approving connections.

[zachira]

Methuen and Livednlearned,
What I am trying to say is it is very important to use our internal compass to validate ourselves and not depend on exterior validation. Many members on this site have experienced so much heartbreak because they were brainwashed into caretaking a disordered parent, instead of learning to value themselves as separate people from their parents. When we care too much about what everybody thinks about us, than we set the bar too high to be able to feel comfortable in our own skin and to make many of the decisions we need to make about prioritizing our own self care. It is one thing to care about the feedback from healthy people who are able to be empathetic and who are willing to try to understand our feelings and situations. It is self destructive to value what most people think about us, particularly those who guilt trip us in to maintaining dysfuctional relationships with people who only hurt us. You are the expert on you. Nobody can walk in your shoes. Going low contact with most of my abusive family members has set me up for all kinds of abuse and hurtful criticism from family members, flying monkeys, and people in the community. These are all people who refuse to acknowledge the abuses I have endured as the lifelong scapegoat of many generations of my family, and most know very little about my side of the story. Family and being esteemed in the community are sacred and then they aren't when abuse is being enabled.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I think having a weak sense of self set me up to mirror people. If you have weak boundaries, do you think that makes you more susceptible to mirroring? Is that the connection.

I know the conversation has changed since this question, but I've given it a lot of thoughts and wanted to take the time to answer it. I continue to think it's more related to natural empathy... But maybe having a weak sense of self makes it harder to distinguish ourselves, our own emotions, from the emotions of the other person we are mirroring, which is why we are left with an emotional hangover...

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
Thank you for turning the conversation back to mirroring disordered people. It is an important topic, and something that causes so much distress when we have been brought up to be caretakers for our disordered family members and to tolerate how they abuse us.
From my perspective, having a weak sense of self is often why we try to mirror/please people instead of using a healthy internal compass. In a healthy family, the children are validated and develop a coherent sense of self that is congruent with who they are in private and in public. The splitting of the personality begins in unhealthy families when the child is expected to mirror a caregiver and meet her/his needs. A split personality drastically changes how a person presents herself/himself depending on who she/he is with and the situation he/she is in. In the worst cases of abuse, the child can develop multiple personalities. A child who is sexually abused will often dissociate to tolerate the pain of the sexual abuse when it is happening and then develop a personality that supresses the sexual abuse when it is not taking place in the moment because it is not safe to disclose the abuse. This complete separation from the abuse into"I am not being abused right now." and "Now I am putting on the face that I am not being abused." can become Dissociative Identity Disorder,, having more than one personality while being in one personality being completely unaware of the other personality/other personalities.
Skip, who I believe founded this site, has often said something like this: that the ultimate solution for dealing with the disordered people in our lives is differentiation, becoming people in our own right, separate people from our disordered family members. He unfortunately does not participate much these days. I have found that he is right. My therapist was very strong in Bowen Family Systems Theory. Murray Bowen developed the concept of differentiation. One of the key things my therapist worked on with me was differentiation from my disordered family which is what has allowed me to go low contact with them and begin to form healthier relationships with myself and others.I continue to work on  having a more coherent sense of self.
We spend a lot of time here grieving how overwhelmed we are by being mistreated by our disordered family members and how to no longer be so triggered. I find it frustrating that we have to do so much work on ourselves, yet I do believe the path to being less and less triggered by how badly our disordered family members treat us, is differentiation from our disordered family members as much as that is possible. Since we did not get the support in childhood from our caregivers, I believe that becoming differentiated from our disordered family members will always be something we have to work on.
In your post, you might consider replacing the word "distinguish" with "differentiate" if that is a better fit after learning more about what differentiation is in Bowen Family Systems Theory.
What do you think?

[Methuen]

First, I should apologize for my role in contributing to this thread taking a tangent. Sorry about that. Back to mirroring.

Skip, who I believe founded this site, has often said something like this: that the ultimate solution for dealing with the disordered people in our lives is differentiation, becoming people in our own right, separate people from our disordered family members...One of the key things my therapist worked on with me was differentiation from my disordered family which is what has allowed me to go low contact with them and begin to form healthier relationships with myself and others.

I really relate to this.  I feel I've accomplished differentiation, but where I still have work to do is in not being affected by her behaviors, demands, rudeness, meanness, neediness etc.  I don't feel her feelings for her. I don't think like her.  I don't agree with her.  And I don't feel emotional attachment to her. But she still frustrates me and she still tries to control me, and I can still react to her behavior or her lies or her crazy texts.  Although she attempts to make us her slaves (we practice a lot of boundaries) and her neediness really frustrates me, I'm wondering whether this could mean I'm not fully differentiated from her?  I'm trying to figure this out, cs I certainly feel fully differentiated.   But, I recently let my emotions go unfiltered with a family member recently, and immediately regretted it and apologized.  Was that unfiltered emotion in that moment my mirroring neurons at work?  or just a moment of weakness?    

In a healthy family, the children are validated and develop a coherent sense of self that is congruent with who they are in private and in public. The splitting of the personality begins in unhealthy families when the child is expected to mirror a caregiver and meet her/his needs. A split personality drastically changes how a person presents herself/himself depending on who she/he is with and the situation he/she is in.

 I'm seeking clarification:  I understand split personality and dissociative personality.  I also understand splitting (seeing a person as all white or all black and even reversing the roles).  But is there a connection between these two things?  I've always thought of them independently of each other. Related?  Or not related?

For example,  with family, my mom is waify and needy, impotent, helpless and depressed.  She tells us she's in pain and thinks she's dying. She asks us to make all her phone calls and do everything for her.  We don't, but that doesn't stop her from asking and demanding. There's a constant stream of drama that we have to navigate/ignore.  But with her family doc and the geriatrician she is spunky, energetic, mentally alert, independent and she performs like an absolute star.  It's honestly like a split personality.  I recognize that this is how she has her needs met.  She has one need from her doctors, and a completely different need from us, even though it's all about her care and health. She shows the doctor how "well" she is and puts on a super duper performance, so that she can continue living independently, fool the doc into thinking that she's doing great, and not be "stuck in a home".  But another need is for us to care for her, so all her waify helpless behavior comes out for us in the form of demanding we do things for her that she could do for herself.  It's nauseating.  She doesn't have multiple personality disorder, but she definitely has a poor sense of self.  I think her physical and health disabilities with aging is her way of ensuring her family meets her needs for contact.  In this way, her frailness serves her needs.  But nobody other than her family understands this.

She also splits.  I have been told I am the best daughter ever and that's why she only had one child (total BS). She also spent plenty of time earlier in her life bragging about me and accomplishments I had which were "because she was such a good mother". More recently, I have been screamed at that I am the worst daughter ever because I am selfish (I went back to work so I'm not available to care for her 24/7).  She also threatened to disinherit me when I pointed out some inconsistencies  to an assessor during a RAI assessment (for assisted living about 4 years ago).  I was telling the truth to the assessor, and that was a capitol offense worthy of disinheritance.

I have always assumed that splitting (black/white) and split personality are unrelated issues.  True/False/It depends ?

I guess another thing I'm still working to understand is the connection between splitting and mirroring neurons.  When she's with the family doc, she's mirroring what she wants him to think?  When she's with us, she's mirroring what she wants us to feel for her?  That could explain the completely different personality she presents to us vs the doc...

[Methuen]

Zachira,

To go back to your original post at the beginning of this thread about the dude in the park who wrongly accused you of stalking him, and your reaction of being triggered...

...are triggers related to mirroring neurons in any way?

[Notwendy]

Methuen, our mothers are so alike- although the difference is distance- but with my mother, it's been one crisis after another since we moved her to assisted living and I have made trips to visit to clean up the mess she's making- not out of co-dependency but because, I need this information. She had made me POA but I had no information -but since she has needed help, I have been able to get ahold of the legal documents, accessed her bank info and so on. So, yes, it's been for her benefit but also I have the information I need to act on her behalf. Still, she's legally competent to make her own disordered decisions.

Assisted living is not enough for her. She needs someone to be with her 24/7 but it's unaffordable. I will be speaking to a Medicaid planner soon. She's in rehab/skilled nursing for physical therapy after a fall. The staff is on to her, she's been demanding and mean and uncooperative. She says they are doing nothing for her but when I have been there, the staff is doing a great job. But she doesn't want to follow the rules. She said she would call her doctor for a prescription she needs and I said- they have their own medical staff her. "No they don't" as the nurse walks in with the medicine she was asking about.

I came to see her and she's pushing the call button every 10 seconds- where is someone to help me? She wants someone to take her finished dinner tray away. I said they will come get it. I need them to come NOW!

She still tries to sneak in her own medicine. She asked me to bring some cream from her assisted living. I went to get it and saw it was prescription, so I gave it to the nurse. BPD mother had a fit. " I want it NOW" . She was angry that she didn't get to sneak it in. The nurse came in and said it was the law that patients could not have their own medicine in the room.

That set the tone. They didn't have the "sulk" as a persona in Understanding the Borderline Mother but this is where BPD mother shuts her eyes and hangs her head down and doesn't respond to anyone. They brought her a sandwich, it was wrapped up and I offered to unwrap it and she snarled "NO" I want it like that and then to another aid "don't speak to me like I have dementia, I can unwrap my own sandwich!"

She's supposed to be taking an antibiotic. In the hall, the nurse tells me she's refusing to take it. She asked me to hand her her checkbook- she wanted to look through it with me. The nurse comes in to take her blood pressure and I gently pull the checkbook away to put it next to her so she has a free arm. She snarls at me. The nurse looks at me with remorse.

She's blaming the move for the disorganization of her records. "I had them all organized but then I had to move".

Truly, it's easier for us to have her moved and out of the house, and the house sold. She was unable to keep it up. But although we solved one problem, there's more. It's crisis to crisis.

Everyone I have talked to who has worked with her has said she wants me to be her POA and yet, I am not her favorite child. She's chosen me because I am closer and able to do things for her. Like you Methuen, I have empathy for her but I don't "feel her feelings for her" - this is a lot of progress for you and for me.

She also says things like "I am your mother and you are my daughter" in a commanding voice. Who talks like this to their child. It's not a loving statement, it's a command.

As much as skilled nursing would help your mother, and also be better for you, I think we can expect drama there too.

[zachira]

Methuen,
I don' t think there is such a thing as being perfect in anything. I believe we are never fully differentiated from the people who are our primary caretakers in our early years and throughout childhood. I view differentiation through many complex lenses. One of them is how preverbal trauma affects us when we did not have a caretaker who was emotionally available and how we take on so many ways of being that we are not consciously aware of nor is there a verbal narrative that can become conscious. For this reason, I am constantly exploring new ways to relate to my body because trauma is stored in the body. I keep doing all kinds of body mind work including trama release exercises (TRE). I also find it helps to learn as much as I can about how human beings are different and alike. As you know, I am on a journey of self discovery including working hard to not behave like my disordered family members, as I see myself doing at times. Overall, I am the most differentiated of all my siblings and I have come a long ways, though still will likely be working on differentiation until the day I die.
When you describe the reaction you did not like seeing in yourself, it sounds like there are ways you react instead of responding to things at times. We all do this. This is normal, especially in your situation with your mother which is so overwhelming. I often wonder if you are trying sometimes too hard to be the kind of daughter that others expect to see when there is a normal daughter-mother relationship. I can't begin to express how hard it is do some of the things I do and have done to not be a participant in my own abuse by my disordered family members.
You describe the polarization in splitting correctly. I also see splitting as having a very incongruent personality, like being a communal narcissist in public while abusing family members behind closed doors. Dissociative Identity Disorder is a mental health diagnosis. Splitting is more of a description of certain polarized behaviors.
I not so sure that I was mirroring this man. I was getting my needs met for human contact very superficially. I erred in not honoring my boundary of disengaging ASAP when there is no connection on my part or of the person I am interacting with.

[Methuen]

NW, I'm glad you finally have access to your mom's financial information.  I can empathize at how much time that has taken with meetings and travel and planning, on top of your regular life.  I guess having access to that info is progress.

The staff is on to her, she's been demanding and mean and uncooperative. She says they are doing nothing for her but when I have been there, the staff is doing a great job. But she doesn't want to follow the rules. She said she would call her doctor for a prescription she needs and I said- they have their own medical staff her. "No they don't" as the nurse walks in with the medicine she was asking about.

Yep.  This is the kind of distorted and twisted game playing my mom narrates. Perhaps they are twins.

I came to see her and she's pushing the call button every 10 seconds- where is someone to help me? She wants someone to take her finished dinner tray away. I said they will come get it. I need them to come NOW!

Yep.  In fact, they should have read her mind and come to get the tray without her needing to ring the call bell, right?  Everything needs to be done THE SECOND she asks for it.  Any longer, and she gets her engine revved...

Oh brother I could just quote your whole post.  Twins.

A few weeks ago, my mother called a friend to her house to help her write a cheque to pay a bill.  I think she didn't ask us because she "senses" she's asking us too much, and she's trying to hide her disabilities (as if it's not visible to even a fool).  Yesterday she forwarded an email from the payor, saying they received the cheque but without a reference or note or invoice to apply the payment to.  I ignored it.

Today this email:  "Did you do something about this cheque?"  

She didn't politely ask "Would you be able to help me with this cheque"?  but conveyed her frustration that her demand wasn't attended to promptly.

Later today this came : "I called and she will return the cheque to me. I told her you had power of attorney and would look after it."  

It's the tone.  The demands.  The entitlement.  Her frustration.  The covert blame: "Did you do something about this cheque?"  Then absolving herself of any responsibility by telling the 3rd party I would look after it without considering to ask me.

No acknowledgement she didn't even understand who to make the cheque out to in the first place.

On top of all that, my H told me she threw her friend under the bus and blamed her for writing the cheque out to the wrong payor.  

Just typical.

I learned something from this.  It reinforced that if I ignore those kinds of texts, it forces her to deal with it, and be uncomfortable, but deal with it.  Ignoring those texts and not "rescuing" her is ok.  So the cheque is still coming in the mail, and she still doesn't know who to pay it to.  Apparently she doesn't have the invoice any more.

[Methuen]

Zachira I don't think you were mirroring that man in the park either.  I think it's simply two people in a park who happen to have similar schedules, and you were just being friendly.

If he interprets it as stalking, that's pretty extreme.  What on earth would make someone think that?  Their own history and baggage...  I think you just got unlucky and ran into another disordered person. I'm convinced there are more disordered people than we think.

This is on him.  You can let it go...maybe try visualizations to let it go?  Don't let him transfer his problems onto you to bear.  Don't give him that.  Our problem is that we have been trained to take this on by our disordered parent.  Only we can stop ourselves from allowing that to happen.

Enjoy your walks in the park, and continue to be the beautiful friendly person you are.  

[Riv3rW0lf]

From my perspective, having a weak sense of self is often why we try to mirror/please people instead of using a healthy internal compass. In a healthy family, the children are validated and develop a coherent sense of self that is congruent with who they are in private and in public. The splitting of the personality begins in unhealthy families when the child is expected to mirror a caregiver and meet her/his needs. A split personality drastically changes how a person presents herself/himself depending on who she/he is with and the situation he/she is in. In the worst cases of abuse, the child can develop multiple personalities. A child who is sexually abused will often dissociate to tolerate the pain of the sexual abuse when it is happening and then develop a personality that supresses the sexual abuse when it is not taking place in the moment because it is not safe to disclose the abuse. This complete separation from the abuse into"I am not being abused right now." and "Now I am putting on the face that I am not being abused." can become Dissociative Identity Disorder,, having more than one personality while being in one personality being completely unaware of the other personality/other personalities.
Skip, who I believe founded this site, has often said something like this: that the ultimate solution for dealing with the disordered people in our lives is differentiation, becoming people in our own right, separate people from our disordered family members. He unfortunately does not participate much these days. I have found that he is right. My therapist was very strong in Bowen Family Systems Theory. Murray Bowen developed the concept of differentiation. One of the key things my therapist worked on with me was differentiation from my disordered family which is what has allowed me to go low contact with them and begin to form healthier relationships with myself and others.I continue to work on  having a more coherent sense of self.
We spend a lot of time here grieving how overwhelmed we are by being mistreated by our disordered family members and how to no longer be so triggered. I find it frustrating that we have to do so much work on ourselves, yet I do believe the path to being less and less triggered by how badly our disordered family members treat us, is differentiation from our disordered family members as much as that is possible. Since we did not get the support in childhood from our caregivers, I believe that becoming differentiated from our disordered family members will always be something we have to work on.
In your post, you might consider replacing the word "distinguish" with "differentiate" if that is a better fit after learning more about what differentiation is in Bowen Family Systems Theory.
What do you think?

I will read more on Bowen Family System Theory.

For me, I said it earlier but it's worth mentioning again, people pleasing and mirroring are two different things. People pleasing is doing something against my own value and boundary out of fear of not being liked, of being rejected; mirroring is done unconsciously, it's adopting the interlocutor body posture, tone of voice, and ultimately their "views and feelings" for the duration of the conversation. Sometimes, we can see ourselves doing it, and stop ourselves, but at other times, we don't and can be left with an icky sensation when the conversation ends, while we slowly revert back to ourselves.

I can see how I can change and be widely different in one context or another, but I don't feel like my inner values and boundaries change... But then, I realize that I didn't react to something I should have reacted to, or won't say something I believe... But it's not so much out of fear, it's just... The impulse of doing those things is decreased on the moment. Maybe it is people pleasing... I certainly seem to have fluid boundaries, even though I don't feel like I do.  

But it's a strong unconscious pull, and I believe it's also regular? Like ...a normal thing amongst humans. But that some people are more prone to it.

Like, put people in a group...the IQ will go down drastically... Mob thinking is a real thing that Carl Jung warned people about, and how individuation is a much needed process for everyone to prevent the "collective unconscious" from taking over one's personality... I thought I had individuated quite a bit, but like you said, and I think you are very right... It's not something that it ever done and over with... It is an ongoing process...

I just wonder if we sometimes overestimate the impact trauma has on us, and overlook biology and genetic, and how we are wired as a social animal... I brought up mirroring, questioning what kind of impact trauma would have had in this habit of mine, on my "chameleon" personality... But maybe that's just who I was, and am...

I remember often adapting, even when I was young, my own personality to make people feel better. If someone was very shy, I'd adopt their body posture, and do the extra mile to make them feel welcome, and valued. I was always more attuned to people around me...this cannot be all trauma, there is good in this overall attitude of tuning into people...mirroring them, connecting... That's also genuine interest and care. I do want people to feel seen. The problem is connecting to the wrong people, and keeping myself from connecting to them... keeping myself from feeding unsafe people...

Like you said...you didn't "cut the ties" with the man in the park, even after noticing he wasn't paying attention to you, after seeing the red flags. And I do the same, I had both my neighbors at my house on Wednesday, and realized at some point they were talking between themselves, completely uninterested in me, in my own backyard, while their children were using our trampoline... I just... Let them feel welcome, was wearing my towel up as to not make them uncomfortable...and then it finally hit me: I am in MY home. And I shifted. Stopped hiding, adopted a strong body posture, put my towel where it didn't disturb me, owned my body and my space. And they suddenly started talking to me, and trying to please ME.

I discussed it with my husband earlier... I was deeply surprised about this turn of events, but it made me realize I have more power over people than I take. Like LnL (I think?) said... Sometimes, feeling confident has to be a choice. And loneliness takes its toll on us...I do think, like you mentioned, that loneliness makes us more "flexible" with our boundaries, because we crave connection, and we will tolerate more red flags, if it means we get some sense of connection with another being...

[Notwendy]

The blame shifting is amazing isn't it?   .

Her whole family is taking care of all the business aspect of her needs- got the house sold, the move organized, settled her into assisted living, organizing her papers, - all of it. Understandable that it's a difficult situation to be in skilled nursing but there doesn't seem to be any comprehension of what everyone is doing for her.

She still owned a car, for years, even though she can't drive it. Her relatives did a lot to get it sold, got an appraisal and took the car with them as she can't leave it at her house. The problem is, they can't sell it easily because she has to sign for it and she's not mobile right now. So I told them on my next visit, I'd go with them with the POA and sign it.

So I told her I was doing that and she said "what - they haven't done this already?" Mom, they can't because you have to sign it.

Then she said "my neighbor got someone to offer to buy it months ago" (yes for a lot less than the price we got quoted)

So we sell her house and car for her and she gets the money in the bank. So to blame shift and put her feelings on someone else, she calls me up and says " I am so sad for you that your relatives have dumped this job on you to do".

? now who dumped on who here? Could it possibly be BPD mother is putting everyone out by her dysfunctional crap and that her relatives don't want this car in their driveway indefinitely?

It's puzzling her because I don't react. I don't even cry. And she tries to play on my feelings and it doesn't work. Fortunately most of the tasks around the move are completed- the house, the car, getting documents.

[TelHill]

I hope it's okay to resurrect this thread! I've read it quite a few times and relate to almost everything that was written as a daughter of a dBPD mom.   She's a waif and quiet to the outside world. Within my immediate family, she is a constant bully and is h3ll on wheels (wheelchair at this point). She shunned friendship (I think she didn't know how or was afraid).  I was neglected. I spent more time watching television as a kid than her interacting with me.  Her interactions with me were filled with resentment. I was very scared most of the time.  I preferred my own company and stayed busy with homework so she'd leave me alone.
 
I have issues making friends being a former doormat and people pleaser.   The friends I had either used me, were extremely angry people or I dropped them because they seemed too kind and normal. I was afraid of the latter because I thought they'd dump me for being defective.

I am not as much as a doormat and people pleaser as before.  I can spot big red flags and extricate myself from a weird or potentially abusive situation.  I am not sure how to slowly let people into my life to make a few acquaintances.   I also have issues trusting females as friends considering how physically and emotionally abusive my mother is/was.  I would get boyfriends or have gay male friends.  I don't want either at this point.

The whole concept is overwhelming to be honest.

My FOO and extended family are immigrants. I am one of the few who was born in the country (US) where we live.  It's relevant to me for two reasons. The first: my immediate family always noted that I was American and they were not.  I felt like I never belonged to them though I wanted to. The second: my extended family were my social circle growing up. They were embarrassing to me, am sorry to say, and they still are.   They are quite clannish and very conservative about women's roles.  They remain stuck in the 19th Century. There is a word in the English language using the name of the region and the definition is like my extended family - breaking down into small hostile groups.  My parents went through a terrible war as children and there was a horrible war there over 20 years ago.  The refugees went to other nearby countries and were not wanted in many places due to bad behavior. They remind me of my cousins. I am nothing like them.  

One of my concerns is how do you get to know people when you have nothing to do with your extended family and are low to no contact with your immediate family?  On top of that I have no friend group and I'm not working now. (I do have a small business which most of the time takes care of itself.)  It makes me quite anxious to look like the lone wolf I'm not.  I live in a large city so most people, including me, are somewhat guarded.

I attend an online book club regularly. I enjoy reading classic literature and learning about fine art. Am a library and museum type. I love hiking and spending time outdoors. I am good with math and am a nerd by profession.  I walk at least five miles a day to help with stress.   I don't like bars or like to drink alcohol or use mind altering substances. I was always responsible and never liked to party.  I'm a square and I like being like this.

I am hoping this makes sense.

Edited to add: There's alcoholism, SA perpetrated on me by a member and general inappropriate speech. 

[livednlearned]

how do you get to know people when you have nothing to do with your extended family and are low to no contact with your immediate family?  On top of that I have no friend group and I'm not working now. (I do have a small business which most of the time takes care of itself.)  It makes me quite anxious to look like the lone wolf I'm not.  I live in a large city so most people, including me, are somewhat guarded.

I have a lot of the same qualities you describe in terms of what you like/don't like. I wonder if there are board game clubs in your area? The nice thing about board games is that you can spend time with people and then, if you don't feel comfortable in that group, a new one might form. And alternately, if you find a group you like, you can opt to stick with the same people.

Another thing I did that honestly I'm a bit iffy about, although I did get a lot of out of it, was to join a therapy group for women that was facilitated by two therapists. I was seeing one of the therapists so I sort of had all the bases covered.

It was equal parts challenging and cathartic. I went because I was in a free fall from my divorce but it helped me understand things about myself and people I don't think I could get from simply hanging out with people. I don't think I developed a realistic sense of who I was to others because of my FOO and needed some help with that.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I watched this video yesterday and thought it incredibly helpful :

https://youtu.be/MOzMaHLIo14

It is also relevant to this discussion.

Hopefully it helps others as well.

[TelHill]

I have a lot of the same qualities you describe in terms of what you like/don't like. I wonder if there are board game clubs in your area? The nice thing about board games is that you can spend time with people and then, if you don't feel comfortable in that group, a new one might form. And alternately, if you find a group you like, you can opt to stick with the same people.

livednlearned, This is a really good idea. I tend to think I should stick with the first group I manage to go to due to low self-esteem. There will be drama if I leave and who knows if the new group will accept me. I'll be stuck at square one.  It's a recipe for eventual self-isolation.

A therapy group sounds good as well.  If it's a good one, it'll give me some confidence.

[

I watched this video yesterday and thought it incredibly helpful :

https://youtu.be/MOzMaHLIo14

It is also relevant to this discussion.

Hopefully it helps others as well.

Riv3rW0lf, I listened to it. Thank you.

Yes, it's extremely helpful about socializing and  is the key I've been looking for.  I've been to many therapists in the last 35 years about how to make friends and they couldn't tell me. I think it comes naturally to almost everyone and is difficult to explain.

With lack of friendships being a big problem with young adults,  someone sat down and thought about how to approach the issue. Yay!