My Mom has asked to talk

[1crzybanana]

So after not going to my parents for fathers day and not calling, texting her etc. She is wanting to talk to me. Now as much as I want to at least call a stalemate, I know how this is going to go. Before I even knew I was dealing with my mom's undiagnosed bpd, in the past, we would show up at my parents in the hope of a resolution and it always ended the same. My husband is blamed for saying or doing things that never occurred. My father will have been coached by my mom in support of what they were going to say and agree with her. I am not a hamster and I'm tired of being on this wheel. I love them both very much and I wish these events would stop occurring, but I don't see that happening. I don't want to be manipulated emotionally into doubting my husband. What should I do? How do I meet without getting sucked into her falsehoods? I would love to hear some ideas if anyone is willing.

[livednlearned]

How do I meet without getting sucked into her falsehoods? I would love to hear some ideas if anyone is willing.

Have you ever disagreed to this extent with them before?

What feelings came up when you refused to attend for father's day -- did you have any feelings of relief or strength?

There are phrases you can use and ways to set boundaries but it's probably more realistic to start with where you're at.

A therapist once coached me to engage my family with curiosity. What happens if I do this, what happens if I don't do that, etc.

I used to be utterly incapable of having any sense of individuality with my family. I would make plans to visit and my mother would spin up an itinerary without consulting me, mostly meeting her friends and spending time with my BPD sibling.

If I resisted, she would sulk and pout and weep, and my father would swoop in and fire up the anger machine and I would get in line.

We are in a much different place, but they have not changed. What changed was me, and they slowly, with quite a bit of resistance, and some estrangement on my part, came around.

What do your instincts suggest is best?

[Methuen]

I am not a hamster and I'm tired of being on this wheel.

This made me laugh.

I love them both very much and I wish these events would stop occurring, but I don't see that happening. I don't want to be manipulated emotionally into doubting my husband. What should I do? How do I meet without getting sucked into her falsehoods?

You're tired of the wheel, so is there some way to get off it?  NC is one option.  Is there another option?

I'm speculating here, but it sounds like you and your H are a team.  Could you come up with a plan that makes the two of you more united in your empowerment of this situation?

My H has been my rock.  The situation is a little different because I am my mom's target, not my H. Although I sense the time is near when she paints him black one day too because he has very firm boundaries with her, although he stepped up to do some caregiving tasks such as grocery shopping and appointments when I went back to work (for the sole reason of escaping her).  Nevertheless, in the background we work as a team, guided by our understanding of BPD and years of counselling.

What if you and your H made a "plan" before going.  Agree upon the purpose for going and the mutual goal for actually going.  Upon arrival and the usual greeting, use BIFF to state your purpose for being there to your parents, but also articulate (BIFF) what will make you leave early (the boundary and consequence).  Then if/when the gerbil wheel starts to spin, you and H look at each other, say "it's time for us to go now", and get up and leave.  

That would change the pattern.  You are being reasonable because you are using BIFF.  You are communicating your needs.  If your needs aren't met.  You have a boundary.  Then you follow through on respecting your own boundary.  This could be empowering, because you are taking some action to change the old pattern, by using a boundary for your own safety. And you are working as a team to support each other with this challenge.  In this case, the boundary is that as soon as they start blaming H, you simply get up and leave without reacting or responding to what they are saying.  Silence sometimes holds more power than words. ...Especially with high conflict people that use words and drama to spin their chaos. I think that after you were gone, they would be in shock. Wouldn't you love to be a bug on the wall then?  Just an idea.  Your thoughts?

[livednlearned]

What if you and your H made a "plan" before going.  Agree upon the purpose for going and the mutual goal for actually going.  Upon arrival and the usual greeting, use BIFF to state your purpose for being there to your parents, but also articulate (BIFF) what will make you leave early (the boundary and consequence).  Then if/when the gerbil wheel starts to spin, you and H look at each other, say "it's time for us to go now", and get up and leave.

This is what I do with my family too. Some of the pre-planning and trying to get the language right is a bit onerous imo.

The big thing to prepare for is an extinction burst.

It's like dealing with little kids. If they punch and kick and scream to get their way, and you no longer cave to that behavior, they may take a beat to regroup but will at some point escalate to see if the old one plus a bit extra might work.

That's in part why you have to remain curious. Let the logic part of your brain think, "There it is, the extinction burst. Interesting." Instead of getting on the emotional roller coaster that is BPD.

When invited to get on the ride, always decline  

[Methuen]

Some of the pre-planning and trying to get the language right is a bit onerous imo.

The big thing to prepare for is an extinction burst.

It's like dealing with little kids. If they punch and kick and scream to get their way, and you no longer cave to that behavior, they may take a beat to regroup but will at some point escalate to see if the old one plus a bit extra might work.

That's in part why you have to remain curious. Let the logic part of your brain think, "There it is, the extinction burst. Interesting." Instead of getting on the emotional roller coaster that is BPD.

When invited to get on the ride, always decline  

I have found the preplanning onerous too.  But it's important to get the language right, so there is nothing there for them to grab a hold of.  Make the target small.

They will find a way to push back.  Like LNL says, after you leave, they will take time to regroup, because you have caught them by surprise.  "The old one plus a little more" made me laugh.  For sure there will be an extinction burst.  But you have a plan and are united on it.  Together you are united and strong and can support each other.  You can't control their response or their extinction burst.  But you can control your response to it, and hold your boundary. 

I would advise against holding any discussions with them at your house through this phase.  If they want to meet again, better to make it at a public place - a coffee house or restaurant, where you have the option to say "we have to go now" and exit.  That's your way of getting off the gerbil wheel.  They are going to have to learn to stop blaming your H if they want to see the two of you.  Holding your boundaries, and consequences is the only way they will learn this IMHO.

PS.  You know about not JADEing right?  If not... it's on this website.  

[1crzybanana]

Thank you both very much. My H and I went out last night and had a strategizing discussion. Yes, this is most definitely the first time we have pushed back so hard. I want to let her know I love her, but never again will we allow her to try to drive a wedge between us. I lean on my H so much for support and logic and we are prepared to leave when it becomes ugly and accusatory. I also plan to go say what needs to be said and leave. I won't get pulled into a 3 hour emotional roller coaster ride. I've had enough of that just being in my own head this week. I won't lie and say I don't have anxiety about doing this, but if there is to be any relationship, these boundaries must be established. I just have to keep repeating that to myself.

[livednlearned]

If they want to meet again, better to make it at a public place - a coffee house or restaurant, where you have the option to say "we have to go now" and exit.  That's your way of getting off the gerbil wheel.  

This is great advice. I also like how there's a bit of a rhythm when you're having coffee or lunch or dinner.  Coffee and lunch are best because no one in my family is a day drinker and they tend to wrap up quicker than a 90 minute dinner which makes for less material and a smaller target.

Try for easy breezy if that feels natural. I would try to avoid getting into the particulars although I know how hard that might be. Baby steps!

"We'd love to meet for coffee or lunch. Let's agree to move on and put this behind us -- where would you like to meet?"

Easy breezy is something I had to work up to. My voice shakes when I'm uncertain if an action will bring pain. With practice I am becoming quite convincing at easy breezy and almost believe it myself  

In the early days of visits after my estrangement, either one or both of my parents would pout or sulk or try to get me to ask them what was wrong. I learned to say, "We're outstaying our welcome. Let's get the bill and we can look at calendars to see when everyone is free. Maybe we can try xyz restaurant."

If you suggest "we" and your mother or father comes back with "just you" then have a plan for that.

Them: "We want you to come here alone."
You: "We'd like to see you together, let's put this behind us. How about the restaurant on Z street?"
Them: "We only want to talk to you. He's mean/selfish/bad/horrible/awful. Come here so we can tell you how mad we are at him."
You: "We'd like to move past this and see you both. Have you been to the restaurant on Z street?"
Them: "You're not listening. It's important to your mother that you come here on your own. You don't love her. She's crying. She's going to take a lot of pills if you don't come here alone."
You: "We would love nothing more than to see you both. If a restaurant is out of the question, how about coffee?"
Them: "Your mother has the whole bottle in her hand and the cap is open, she has a glass of water and she's about to take the whole thing if you don't come here."
You: "Do you want to postpone for now and find a better time to meet?"

Does that make sense? You keep coming back to what's acceptable: the two of you meet the two of them somewhere public.

It feels like banana peels when it's happening. Sometimes I'll let them know, "I'll get back to you shortly, I have to take care of something at the moment."  

Then come here  

[Methuen]

Them: "We want you to come here alone."
You: "We'd like to see you together, let's put this behind us. How about the restaurant on Z street?"
Them: "We only want to talk to you. He's mean/selfish/bad/horrible/awful. Come here so we can tell you how mad we are at him."
You: "We'd like to move past this and see you both. Have you been to the restaurant on Z street?"
Them: "You're not listening. It's important to your mother that you come here on your own. You don't love her. She's crying. She's going to take a lot of pills if you don't come here alone."
You: "We would love nothing more than to see you both. If a restaurant is out of the question, how about coffee?"
Them: "Your mother has the whole bottle in her hand and the cap is open, she has a glass of water and she's about to take the whole thing if you don't come here."
You: "Do you want to postpone for now and find a better time to meet?

This is great stuff,  and an excellent example of how you can refuse to get sucked into their agenda and drama.  It's also called "staying in your lane".  

It will frustrate them, because you are refusing to engage in their game.  It's another example of how to off the gerbil wheel.  

Like parenting a toddler, the key is consistency.  Each time you change your strategy  (using the broken record technique, replying with silence, exiting calmly and graciously), they will regroup and push back.  But if you stick to your plan and remain consistent with your boundaries they will have to adjust.  It's the long game.  If you show weakness and blink first,  and fall into the trap of engagement and conflict, they will have learned the worst thing possible - that if they push harder, they will always win.

I can't say this enough - you being consistent with your message and boundaries and staying calm through the storm, is the key to success.

[Notwendy]

I see the invitation to "talk" as an invitation to BPD mother having the opportunity to dysregulate and tell you all you did wrong.

I think we see "talking it out " as an opportunity for both parties to have mutual understanding, to apologize for any grievances, learn how to do better- a genuine effort to repair and improve a relationship.

IMHO, if this were possible, we would not have these situations. Our mothers would understand us, we'd understand them. People make mistakes sometimes, and the mutual discussions help us to do better. Each person is willing to be accountable for their actions.

BPD mother isn't capable of these things. If I mention anything she "did wrong" - she may dysregulate or then criticize me. This kind of mutual understanding isn't possible and this is one thing that limits the relationship. To her, any issues have to be the other person's fault.

We talk about boundaries and that is important. While I have boundaries I also see this kind of thing as not something about myself but as the limits to the relationship- acceptance of what my mother is capable of, as she is, not what I wish she would be.

Karpman triangle dynamics play a part here. She is in Victim perspective. You can't tell the Victim that they did or said something hurtful to you- they are the Victim, not you.

So, you can choose LC or NC. I have done LC- it's not just about how often there is contact but the content in it. I don't share personal or emotional information. The content of the conversations are topics that are known to everyone- the news, that the kids won a soccer game, that kind of thing. Not feelings and not anything that she has done that may have contributed to any problem. If the result is that she's going to dysregulate and so reframe anything as "not her fault" or that my intention is to hurt her feelings, then what is the point?

The talk? It's either to blame you, or dry erase the incident. My mother will say, "let's just start over from here". - pretend nothing happened. I think it's good to not hold on to a resentment or grudge but we don't have to forget. It's accepting that this is how she is.

[Methuen]

NW is reminding us all that being invited to a "talk" is like her setting a trap.  You sound like you have been down this road many times and already know the pattern.  It keeps repeating itself with the same outcomes (chaos and conflict) because she never works on personal growth to move past the BPD.  

I lean on my H so much for support and logic and we are prepared to leave when it becomes ugly and accusatory.

My advice is don't wait for this to happen before you leave.  By the time it's ugly and accusatory it's too late and the emotional abuse has already happened.  Time to start working on prevention.  I don't know about you, but I can see this behavior (the real ugly stuff) coming before it climaxes.  You want to leave once you see she's getting her engines revved and before she hits her peak, so that you don't have to experience the ugliness.  At the first sign of her twisting things and turning the blame onto H or you, that's your red flag for where this is going.  That's the time to redirect the conversation, or exit.  Do that enough times, and eventually she'll figure out her game isn't working for her any more.  The challenge for you is that because it has worked so well for her all these years, it's going to be a process for her to accept it's not working for her any more, and she will push harder (the extinction burst) for a while.  If you can hold your boundaries through the extinction burst, that is your best chance of changing the game.

The only way her behavior will adjust, is if she figures it out herself because of the new boundaries you are using to keep yourself safe.  I would never tell my mom what she's doing wrong, or how she should change. That just isn't going to work.  

I've had some success with using boundaries. And my H has his own boundaries with her. Like NW, I am low contact (a relative term as I still see her once every week or two since we live in the same small town).  Being LC and having boundaries keeps enough stress in her life that she's comfortable (she's not comfortable without stress and a certain level of chaos), but not so comfortable that she can feel safe to blame and rage at me.  Does that make sense?  But changing the game and holding my boundaries has been exhausting physically and emotionally.  I am not going to lie.  My mom is 87 but physically and emotionally needy like a two year old.  Holding those same boundaries over and over and over and over and over and over and over ...is just exhausting and very very frustrating. And there's no light at the end of the tunnel until her death, and her entire family has longevity until their late 90's.  I can lever let my guard down, or my emotions show. I always have to be the bigger person, and thinking and strategizing, and enforcing boundaries. I don't know how old you and your parents are, but one question is: "is it worth it to try LC?"  Only you know the answer to that. For me, it still is.  But there are still many days where the easiest and simplist solution seems for us to just move away from her - far away.  Some days for me feel like her neediness seems like death by a thousand cuts - slow and painful.  Is she still taking me down with her?  Humph.  Without my H and T and this forum I don't know what would have happened to me.  I truly think I might have been in a psych ward myself - but I just was not ever going to let that happen. If it's between her and me, it's not going to be me.

Have you and H decided if you will even meet with them or not?  

[Ninky]

Hi. I'm just joining and wanted to say how helpful this thread was/is to me. I have a very close friend with BPD and have finally realized my role in enabling her dysregulation to the detriment of my own mental health. About 3 or 4 weeks ago I established a boundary and boy is she HATING it, laying it on thick with the guilt tripping, etc. I realize after reading this that I am experiencing her extinction burst! I feel very good about my boundary with absolutely no guilt about it. I'm feeling much more in balance and healthy since I've basically gone LC with her. I'm not available at her beck and call. And most importantly I've lovingly refused to play her 'game' where she dominates the conversation, I listen, and she tells me her victim/negative/catastrophe/what-if/I'm worthless story. I've offered to have a phone chat with her weekly where we practice her Distress Tolerance skills if she is highly anxious or depressed. She has yet to take me up on that because it's not how we used to roll. She's been in treatment for over a year and a half and consistently sabotages any help. Anytime anyone gets to the 'root' of her trauma, she claims it's not helpful and triggering and then avoids it moving forward. Her husband enables this whole she-bang.