Therapy making things worse?

[La Carotte]

Therapy is talked about on here very often, and with good reason, for both pwBPD and nons. My question is, does anyone else have an experience of therapy making things much worse?

18 months ago, with my support and encouragement, ex acknowledged that I wasn't the first of her partners to wonder if she had BPD, and she read and recognised traits in herself, and so got herself a therapist.

She's had several counsellors in the past, but got nowhere with them, whereas from the very first session she felt they clicked, she trusted her, and has been seeing and idolising her ever since.

In many ways this T has helped her enormously, especially in terms of her dealing with terrible childhood trauma. So for that I will always be grateful.

But

Within two one hour sessions, the T said ex did not have BPD, she had an attachment disorder and so since then BPD is off the table - apart from something to beat me up with because I said she had, was trying to label her and condemn her as a way of not accepting my responsibility for the terible things I've done in this relationship. She ticks 8 of the 9 criteria, regularly, often and with bells on. She may have an attachment disorder, she also  almost certainly has BPD. I'm not a therapist, but I am someone who has lived with this for three years and spent hours researching and matching up, and I'm not someone who is basing a diagnosis on two hours of what my very plausible ex says.

But worse than this, apparently the T now has a thick file of all the abusive appalling things I've done to ex, and hates me, and is encouraging ex to leave me, the only reason ex is now able to leave me is because she has better self esteem thanks to the encouragement of her T. Which would be all well and good except I haven't done those things. None of them. I'm not saying im perfect, Im not by any means, and as I've said in other posts, I've spoken and acted in ways I didn't know were possible for me, and I don't want to be that out of control screaming person. But all the affairs, lying, cheating, deceit, lack of support, lack of love- not one word of it is true, quite the opposite. But as I've also said, ex is very plausible, and regularly believes these things, so why wouldn't her T?

And of course I know that it's very unlikely the T has actually told ex she hates me, or even has a file on me, but still... .There was a time that the therapist was going to see us both and then said she wouldn't see me after all, so she clearly believes something.

Apparently the T has many opinions on me, including me having poor communication skills, no empathy and being a narcissist. And of course, what T says is the truth, it cannot be questioned, because if I do that I'm disrespectful as well as everything else.

For her part, ex says she has committed to therapy, spent a fortune on therapy- for me, for our relationship and I refuse to do my part - and acknowledge all my terrible sins- BECAUSE I HAVENT DONE THEM! So she is "cured" and I'm still in denial, and refusing to accept responsibility.

The whole thing, from my point of view, has ended up being far more damaging for our relationship than beneficial. And really, an additional crazy maker.

I suppose I'd just be interested in others'  experiences and thoughts.

Thanks

[troisette]

There are good therapists and not so good therapists.

And there are good clients who have a sincere wish to discover the cause of their problems. There are also clients who use therapy as validation to point the finger outward, rather than self-investigation.

You'll never know the authentic interchange between her and her therapist.  I'm surprised at a therapist voicing so many opinions about someone they have not met, particularly the label of "narcissist" - this, at face value, is unprofessional.

The role of a therapist is to remain a neutral voice, a still place, a white screen while carefully leading their client in a constructive direction.

[vortex of confusion]

I have a couple of thoughts after reading your post. First, how do you know that the T said that ex doesn't have BPD? Is this something that was reported to you by the T or by your ex?

Getting second hand reports from ex are not going to be very reliable reports.

My stbx did a brief stint in counseling. I don't think it made any kind of difference at all. It did make things a little worse because he didn't want to go to counseling at all. When we were discussing reasons that our relationship failed, one of the things that he cited was that I wanted too much from him. I wanted him to go to counseling with some kind of regularity. He said that was wanting too much. He said something along the lines of, "What good is counseling going to do? I can go in there and tell the counselor whatever the heck I want and make her believe just about anything. How is that going to help me?" It was very telling that he didn't see the point in counseling. In order for it to help, a person has to go in and be honest about things.

How do you know that the T has a file of appalling things that you have done? Is this something that your ex reported to you?

All of the stuff that you have shared sounds like stuff that your ex is telling you in order to increase feelings of guilt and make it easier to manipulate you. Unless you are getting stuff straight from the T, I wouldn't put too much stock in it.

[Suzn]

Within two one hour sessions, the T said ex did not have BPD, she had an attachment disorder and so since then BPD is off the table

This may help, from Levy, K. N., Meehan, K. B., Weber, M., Reynoso, J., & Clarkin, J. F. (2005). Attachment and borderline personality disorder: Implications for psychotherapy. Psychopathology, 38, 64-74.

The pdf is below this title.

www.levylab.psych.psu.edu/publications/2005/attachment-and-borderline-personality-disorder-implications-for-psychotherapy/view

We have to remember she doesn't understand the big picture here and that's ok. The therapist seems to see the big picture. The label doesn't matter, what matters is being an active participant in one's therapy. Part of a therapists job is to build trust and to be someone in your corner. One way to do this is to validate a patients feelings.

Could it be that your ex's therapist is validating her feelings to build trust and your ex is taking this to mean feelings=facts? Two therapy sessions is at the very beginning of this journey, one that could last years. Do not take what you are being told personally, you know the truth.

Are you wanting to work on improving your relationship?

[GreenEyedMonster]

I often think that one of the great limitations of therapy is that the therapist only ever hears one perspective.  With some patients, I suspect it takes a nearly psychic therapist to cut through all of the defense mechanisms and deceptions.

My ex, for example, has been in therapy for three years.  He went through a relationship with a Cluster B individual before he dated me, and he left that relationship (and therapy) with the idea that he was a victim, he had done nothing wrong, and his ex was some kind of sub-human who had no redeeming qualities.  I'm sorry to say this, but to be blunt, if a patient lies to a therapist, the therapist is left to essentially create a narrative on their own of what the reality is, and if this narrative is wrong, the therapy can be really destructive.  My ex is highly narcissistic, to the point that I wonder if he even has BPD, and will warp any story to avoid disclosing the things he did wrong.

Through his web of false accusations toward me, his delusions, and his repeating pattern of accusing the women he dates of being horrible people, I haven't seen therapy make much of a dent.  I'm guessing that his therapist is an enabler who coddles his narcissism and helps him find ways to blame others.  I can't see a narcissist staying in any other kind of "therapy" for very long.

[GrowThroughIt]

Hi!

I'm sorry to hear about what is going on.

In my uneducated opinion, it sounds like the Karpman Drama Triangle playing out?

[Lonely_Astro]

My ex (J) is diagnosed BPD. she has been for 4 years.  She decided to go to DBT in mid-sept 2015.  It made things worse, not better, for me.  What I mean is that J started using DBT as a reason to not talk to me, push me away, etc.  J also gave me conflicting accounts of what her therapist told her to do about me.  One week, I was toxic... .the next I was a great guy who supported her.  It literally made no sense.  I once told J I was willing to go with her, if she wanted, and she panicked (I could see it on her face).  I never did go nor did I have an offer to.  That showed me that J didn't want me to go. I believe this was for many reasons, too.  

J is/was seeing a DBT specialist, btw. I'm not sure she's still going.  Heck, I wasn't sure if she was still going after a couple visits.  She claims (our last interaction) that she is, which is fine, but J isn't taking it serious if so.  I have my reasons for saying that.  

The short of it all is that they have years of DBT, at best, to show improvement... .if they do at all.  Plus, you can't trust what your pwBPD is telling you is being said in therapy.  

[Suzn]

I often think that one of the great limitations of therapy is that the therapist only ever hears one perspective.  With some patients, I suspect it takes a nearly psychic therapist to cut through all of the defense mechanisms and deceptions.

We have to remember also that a therapy session only last 50 mins and with how often one goes, once a week, twice a week, once a month? Yes, it can take an incredibly long time for patterns to emerge. A patient must be willing to continue going also, unless there's a court order therapists can't force a patient to keep at it.

Therapists aren't magicians however they are trained to pick up on red flags similar to what we talk about here on these boards. A good therapist not only hears what you are a "victim" of but the fact that there are reasons's behind why you were with a person who "victimizes" you. People with BPD and their partners follow behavior patterns. We often talk about "scripted" behaviors as BPD behaviors are fairly predictable... .that goes for nons too. We also talk about how nons and a pwBPD aren't all the same because we are all individuals. With any disorder there can be co-morbid disorders, it can all be quite complex so of course this all needs time to surface in therapy.

Many nons speak of having ptsd or symptoms of, this is a disorder too. Codependency is often spoke of here as well, though not listed as a disorder in the DSM it significantly adds to the dysfunction of the relationship and points towards FOO issues on our side. It would be rare occurrence that these behavior tendencies that WE have came about solely from our last relationship. It's more likely they existed prior.

Point being that a therapist's job isn't always a walk in the park. We want to be realistic about what all is involved in the discovery process in therapy.

In my uneducated opinion, it sounds like the Karpman Drama Triangle playing out?

Spot on. I think you're onto something here.

[La Carotte]

Thank you for your replies everyone, theyve been helpful in making me think.

I don't really understand about how this is the Karmann Drama triangle?

I've had no direct contact with the T, everything is reported by ex. I suppose what I think is that whatever the T did or didn't say, ex almost certainly believes that T has said these things- as I know very well, ex is a master at interpreting and creating what she needs at any given moment, so this is no surprise - but the end result is the same... .She believes T said them, and they all validate her view of me as bad.

I don't really think theres anything to be done about it, I was just looking for some validation of my experience I guess.

Suzn, thanks for the link. I've downloaded it and glanced at it, it looks very interesting, and I'll read it tomorrow when my head is less fuzzy. Thank you. You ask if I want to work on improving our relationship. In theory, yes, in reality, no, I think it's too late for that. Ex has shut the door, too much damage has been done,  and  anyway, I don't think i have the skills or the right attitude. I thought I did, and I did try, but in reality I dont. And I need to protect my relarionship with D18, which I don't think I can do if I pursue things with ex.

Thanks again everyone, am feeling reassured a bit.

Karpman!

[teapay]

FIT, therapy has brought it's share of oddities with my W.  I remember once after seeing a particular T for awhile spousal abuse and DV literature started appearing all over the house.  She didn't mention anything to me.  It just started appearing.  Not hidden either.  We would be reading together in the living room on the love seat.  I reading some great American novel on one end and she a book on not being gaslighted by an abusive mate on the other end.  "Uh, some light reading, honey". I figured it was the T pushing it and that turned out to be the case.  I called her on it and it stopped.

My W also has the habit of attaching to her Ts, Ps and AA sponsors if they validate her and show her lots of positive attention, especially if they are accomplished and she admires them.  They are well meaning, but before they realize what's happened it is too late and she is BPDing them.  They tire of that quickly and dump her and then I'm left with a distraught person.  The T who was pushing me as an abuser started getting the BPD business from my W and dumped her too.

I also remember my W getting dx with BPD by a P and T, getting meds and cbt counseling for about 6 or 9 months and then being declared remitted from BPD with just a couple of traits to follow up on.  None of them ever talked to me about my wife before, during or after.  At home she was seriously disturbed, expressing classic BPD, all 9 traits.  I couldn't believe it.  I could not believe that I and her treatment team were actually living on the same planet.

She's been in dbt now for about 9 months.  I can't see much improvement and I'm skeptical that it can make much headway for a person on the acute side of the spectrum, but I still encourage her too go because she seems to like it.  I think the therapy, as well as other things (religion, self help, education, whatever) tends to be fodder for the BPD.  It gets just filtered and digested by the BPD and incorporated into the personality illness.

[Suzn]

Within two one hour sessions, the T said ex did not have BPD, she had an attachment disorder and so since then BPD is off the table - apart from something to beat me up with because I said she had, was trying to label her and condemn her as a way of not accepting my responsibility for the terible things I've done in this relationship.

She is the victim, you are the prosecutor and her T is the rescuer. She is attempting to triangulate, if you are arguing with her over this she is succeeding. Arguing with her about how she doesn't fit the criteria for BPD is you solidifying your "prosecutor" role, in her mind. Stay out of the triangle.