He stayed in Florida, what to do now?

[purekalm]

Hello,

My husband recently went to visit family in Florida and on our 7 year anniversary he calls and apparently we're now separating for a year but he still wants to be a "good dad".

Here's the rub, he never was a good dad and always ignored him and doesn't have any plans to come visit him for at least that whole year and phone conversations before that he never asked to talk to him even once... .I believe he's being influenced by his family to be honest. I don't have many worries when it comes to custody because he practically just abandoned us besides his previous history with him.

He said when asked that we're pretty much done (yet he wants a year separation?) but he wants to be a good dad. His idea of that is buying him stuff I'm sure. The very next day he misunderstood something I said and flipped instantly getting nasty with me until I repeated clearly what he said and then he got quiet. It's like he's trying to pick fights with me on purpose. Right after that he said something about do I "want to just be done with it all then?"

There are some legal issues that need to be dealt with, and unfortunately he has to do a couple of them and he isn't reliable. I can't even hardly get a hold of him either to at least figure these important issues out. One is the van we recently bought is in his name and has a temporary tag because, you know, he was supposed to come back. He needs to sign power of attorney papers, but if he doesn't and this is my only vehicle I'm left with what option?

Also, since he is most likely planning to divorce me based on the way he's acting and what he's saying, should I try to file for it without consulting him? I'm sure if he received the paperwork without previously discussing it he'd be in a rage. We have nothing of value besides my son. He knows how important he is to me and I worry he'll get vindictive and try something underhanded. I've been thinking about it a lot and besides being his biological father there isn't any other ground he has to stand on for getting any type of custody. He would do it for spite because he can't even handle him for five minutes and it would extremely negatively impact my son. He is a pretty volatile person.

It's only been a couple days since he told me, but I have to make sure I keep it together and do what's best for my son. Please advise.

[livednlearned]

Oof, that is a real blow. I'm really sorry, it must feel like your world is upside down, meanwhile you're probably trying to be a good mom and hold down the fort while this is happening. It's hard  :'(

Have you had a chance to consult with a lawyer yet? We aren't lawyers here and can't give legal advice, though we can share what our experiences have been and some of the collectively learned common traps of divorcing a BPD spouse.

Every state handles divorce in slightly different ways. In some ways, what is important now is that you establish a status quo and keep track of everything you can. The best advice I received was to document everything, including having a timeline. I would enter important events and even the subject of emails into a Google calendar. And then, when it came time to printing things out, I clicked the agenda view and everything printed out in chronological order. It really helped me clear things clear, which was hard to do under all that stress.

If you can, try to keep your communication to email so you have a record of what he says.

You're probably right that he has no intention of being a hands-on dad and going for custody. However, hedge your bets and assume that he might. Weird things happen when legal documents start to arrive -- the language can be so triggering and accusatory. I'm not BPD and there were moments after getting my mail and reading the letters that I felt like I was a criminal, the way they address you with just regular legal language. It can be super triggering for someone with BPD.

He may never get far if he does try to file for custody, though it can be very stressful when a disordered parent even goes through the legal motions. It seems kinda common for BPD men to want legal control of their child (and by extension you) while doing nothing even remotely close to parenting. I hope it doesn't go that way for you.

One advantage is that he left you, and even though he says he wants to be a good dad, not many courts of law will see his actions as the sign of someone who is actually trying to do that by moving away and not requesting contact. That's one of those things you might want to track -- how many times he asks to talk to your son. In fact, you may want to keep track of emails and text messages you send asking him if he wants to talk to your son. That will help dispel any accusations that you prevented him from having a relationship with your son, if it comes to that.

The longer he is in Florida and you establish a status quo custodial arrangement where you are the de facto full-time parent, the easier it will be to get a slam dunk in court, if there is such a thing.

It could be that your greatest hurdle is dealing with stonewalling and obstructions. The only time I was able to get anything dealt with is when I had leverage, and usually I had to be 3 steps ahead to make sure I played my hand in a way where I had any leverage. Don't tell him you are planning to file (if that's what you end up doing), otherwise he may escalate things quickly. Wait until you've had a chance to consult with 1-3 lawyers. It could be that they tell you to just wait and let there be a 6-12 month period where he doesn't so much as lift a finger to connect with your son.

[ForeverDad]

Wow, I just read a few posts from last year.  He is not just a loser, he can be dangerous.  I would worry less about him and more about you and your son.  You and your son.  Those are your priorities.  As they say when you take an airplane, "In the event of an emergency, put on your own oxygen mask first before you help others.  You need to be in good shape to help your son have a relatively safe and normal childhood.

Yes, you wanted to make the relationship work.  You tried.  We know you tried.  You did what you could.  But with you pushing when he's pulling, you reasonable when he unreasonable, it's still dysfunctional and unhealthy.  It takes two to make a marriage successful.

As for filing for divorce, do what you have to do.  If he's in another state, then better to do it sooner than later.  When it comes to custody matters, he would have residency in that state after 6 months there and you want the location of a court case to be local to you.  At this point what he feels and how he reacts is low on your priority list, do what you have to do.  Yes, don't purposely antagonize or trigger him, but if the paperwork would trigger him anyway, then just do what you have to do for yourself and for your child.

On a practical note, what about the van?  You said it's in his name.  Is there a loan or financing?  You didn't sign or co-sign to be responsible for the payments, I hope?  If you need the van for work, transportation or whatever, then include that in the filing.  If payments are required for it and you're not responsible for them then financially the outcome isn't as crucial.  Whatever else, don't be obligated to pay for a vehicle you're not using.

You mentioned debts.  If at all possible try to get him to assume the marital debts in the divorce.  At the least, don't assume more than half of the marital debts, and make sure if that happens then you pick carefully which to handle.  For sure he gets all the ones that you aren't a co-signer or joint account holder.  If that's confusing, I can go into more detail later.

[purekalm]

Thank you both for your replies.

livednlearned, Yeah, it hurts pretty bad. It is hard, but I'm doing my best to process it and figure it all out, thinking as far ahead as I can.

No, I've already been told by my parents I should consult one though. My issue is that he was the only one working so I couldn't pay for one. My son has autism and is going to an online school because I don't want him to be bullied anymore than he already has been outside of school. The experience we had with school the teachers were the main issue, so, I've got a lot to think about... .Thank you for that, experiences are helpful because you've already been in a similar place and can understand some of the pain, emotions and thoughts.

I've never been good with that dang calendar thing, but, I can keep records regardless. I am sending him some of his belongings with money from his last check here, how should I document that? With the Fedex tracking or receipt info? Also, I ordered his birth certificate since he needs it for a job down there and am sending him the notarization fee for the power of attorney he needs to get to sign the van over, if he does it. I know it sounds bad, but the more I help him and keep him calm the easier it will be to get him to do the things I need done from him before someone else influences him enough to stop contacting or something. I don't doubt that could happen.

He wants to Skype with my son, only after I mentioned that he was saying "daddy at work" because he hasn't been here. I looked up Florida digital laws and I can't record audio without his consent, and I know he won't give it and it would start some bad news if he knew I was trying to keep records for myself. Should I take a screenshot of the conversation time and date? That's the only thing I can think of. He calls more than tex and never emails, so I'm kind of screwed there besides just taking screen shots of when he called and for how long.

That's what I'm worried slightly about is him trying to be vindictive if/when he receives divorce papers. But that's a ways off anyway cause I have no money besides what's left of his last check that is mostly being used on him for postage and all that.

That's also what I was hoping, that no matter what he says, he abandoned us. He said he wants to send money up to us when he gets a job. If or when he does that I will keep a record of that too. He'll probably send it through WalMart since it's most convenient for him. He already postponed his first conversation via Skype with him this morning because he's about to go see his mom and one of his brothers... .

ForeverDad,

That's true, and the slight worry I have about him being vindictive towards me. I know, that's what I've had to do all this time. He hasn't been a priority because he hasn't done anything. I've had to put my son first since forever because he never did anything. That's the hard part, me too and me first so I can help my son. I'm trying and I plan to do better for myself, it's just hard to get over the first hurdle of shock and emotions, but I will.

Exactly, that's what I've told him all this time. That he needs to make a choice because just me doing all the work isn't going to get us anywhere. It's like a paddle boat, if I'm the only one rowing, no matter how hard or good, we're still going in circles and won't get anywhere unless he picks his up too and does his part of the work.

I didn't know that about the states and residency, thank you, helpful information. I know, he doesn't care about us. I mean, he actually asked if I could try to send him his stereo and speakers! Yeah, he's really gonna try and make a difference in his life, while just playing around and having fun and not even thinking about us... .whatever...

Well, the van he bought is a total mess and it's paid for because we already have debt from a van we got with payments before when I told him not to, which is also in my name. This van, however, had a gas leak and my dad and him fixed it, but still has a host of other issues like a hole in the radiator, but it's the only vehicle I have. It's in his name, with a temporary tag that expires the 28th of this month. He has to get a power of attorney, I have to send him the title so he can, and then send it back to me so I can get it in my name and a new temp tag for now because I don't have the money for plates. So, I have to rely on him for that, or I won't even have my crappy vehicle at all... .

Yes, about $50,000, all thanks to him, no lie. The only two that actually have my name on them is the old van loan, electric bill (because they didn't shut it when I told them too and they won't take responsibility for the almost $2,000 someone ELSE ran up in MY name) and my student loan debt. The latter being I didn't even get to finish and get my degree because he promised help in the form of watching our son who at the time still wasn't sleeping through the night, and after a month and a half with only five or less hours of sleep a week I couldn't do it anymore and had to quit. Sigh, man what a mess my life is... .Everything else is his. But, the biggest debt we have is the old van at a little over $13,000 and then my two student loans which one is $1,000 and the other that's already in collections is about $8,000. He told me before he would take responsibility for all our debt because he caused it, but obviously that can change at a moments notice, so I have to talk to a lawyer and see what my actual options are when dividing it.

I just, I feel in one way that a divorce is what should happen given the circumstances. Someone who really loves doesn't abandon you, plain pure and simple. If this was someone else I would feel like I hung on long enough with no change and pure hell and that a drastic change is in order. Just earlier he called me because he had a missed call and I had already tex him the info I needed to tell him since I couldn't get a hold of him. I'm not in the best mood right now so I was a little bland in my tone and he actually said "What, so you're that disgusted with me huh? You hate me so bad you don't even want to talk to me, I see how it is." He said something else along the lines of me not being fair, but I was so mad I can't even remember. I just told him that he didn't have a right to say that to me right now. He got quiet, because on some level, he knows he totally screwed me over. After all I've done, and I get paid back with a see ya, I'm living my own life and I'll try to get help. I don't believe it. I feel sorry for my son, but in a lot of ways he'll be better off without his constant yelling, ignoring and frustration. Thanks for letting me vent a little and for all the advice. I really appreciate it.

[livednlearned]

In my state, leaving your family is called abandonment. Do you happen to know if you live in a no-fault state?

Either way, his leaving could make things easy in terms of court (although he may make things as difficult as possible). For example in my state, this applies:

Abandonment is not technically an issue in custody matters. However, when one spouse leaves and the children remain, an unintended status quo may be created around the new custody arrangement, meaning that the parent that stays in the home with the kids may be viewed as the custodial parent and if that arrangement seems to be working, a judge may not want to disturb it.

From what I've read here on this board, status quo is pretty powerful in court. Partly because judges don't have to dig into the mess of your relationship too deeply, they can just make a judgment based on what is already in place, making their jobs easier and legally defensible if your H were to appeal the ruling.

If you do consult with a lawyer (and don't forget there may be pro bono lawyers you can talk to if your income is low enough), you may want to ask if there is a possibility that your H can establish residency in Florida and try to file for custody. I think if he did, he would have to have your son with him for it to have an effect on custody though I'm not certain of that -- it's always important to check with a lawyer.

We're walking with you, purekalm. You have friends here and people who genuinely care.



LnL

[Kwamina]

Hi purekalm

Though your husband's behavior has always been quite concerning and difficult, I can imagine that it still must have been very hurtful to have him call you like that on your 7 year anniversary. I am very sorry you are going through this. It has unfortunately been a rough ride with your husband from the very start.

How are things now? How are you holding up? How is your son?

If you can, try to keep your communication to email so you have a record of what he says.

Though he mostly contacts you by phone, seldom texts and never emails, I still think this is an important piece of advice livednlearned has given you. If you at any time would find yourself dealing with hostile emails or texts from him or his lawyers, the so-called BIFF technique can be very helpful:

Hostile e-mail exchanges have become huge in divorce. Blamers love sending them and use them to attack you, your family and friends, and professionals. It’s extremely tempting to respond the same way. Hostile e-mail has also become huge in family court, as a document used to show someone’s bad behavior. While you are encouraged to save copies of hostile e-mail sent to you, it is very important that you not send hostile e-mails to anyone. They will be used against you.

Instead, assertively use a BIFF response, as described next, and encourage people in your support system to do the same. It will save you a lot of wasted time and energy to be Brief, Informative, Friendly, and Firm.

Do You Need to Respond?

Much of hostile mail does not need a response. Letters from exes, angry neighbors, irritating coworkers, or attorneys do not usually have legal significance. The letter itself has no power, unless you give it power. Often, it is emotional venting aimed at relieving the writer’s anxiety. If you respond with similar emotions and hostility, you will simply escalate things without satisfaction, and just get a new piece of hostile mail back. In most cases, you are better off not responding.

Some letters and e-mails develop power when copies are filed in a court or complaint process—or simply get sent to other people. In these cases, it may be important to respond to inaccurate statements with accurate statements of fact. If so, use a BIFF response.

You can read more here:

Responding to hostile email and text communications during and after divorce

Take care my friend

The Board Parrot

[purekalm]

Hey Kwamina,

Well, I don't think I'd feel too sorry for me given I was the idiot that chose him and have done more than my fair share to keep it together. I've let myself be made a fool so many times, waiting for him to pick up his part and work with me.  :'(

Like I said, I'm a fool. He changed his tune a few weeks in and actually started begging to come back and making promises, and so I finally caved and gave him one last chance though he'd have to prove a whole heck of a lot if he ever wanted me to trust him again. So, he found a way back and has done exactly NOTHING he promised. If not having more of an attitude after tasting freedom and losing it so quickly.

He isn't working or trying to find work so we lost our vehicle that could've been fixed with an income, he spends all day either asleep or in front of the t.v. playing his stupid game and messaging his clan over their secret facebook group. He doesn't lift a finger to help me except one day he straightened the living room and cleaned the bathroom, out of the entire  time he's been back. Complains about sleeping on the couch or chair because one of my rules of him coming back was he could no longer share a bed with me until he proved he'd be a man of his word. Lol Like that's ever happening. 

I've been fighting depression and decisions, doing my best to keep it together and not succeeding very well. I mean, I'm just a plain old idiot for even thinking he'd try. When he ditched me in the hospital to play games, decided to leave me when he had an easy way out, all the freaking hell he's put me through ever since we've been married.

Jesus said that a wise man considers the house before he builds it, to make sure he'll have what he needs and only a foolish man will build without first counting the cost. Unfortunately, I'm the latter, the fool. I didn't count the cost, at all. So I rightly deserve the price I've had to pay. It may be late in the game, but I've looked behind, now and ahead and I've counted the cost I'm still yet to pay, and I know at this rate I will literally die before it all gets paid. I may deserve it, but my son doesn't and that's why I won't give up. Every time I see his smiling face I'm reminded what the cost will be to him if I don't fight.

My husband doesn't love me, doesn't even care for me. He's proven it over and over. I wish this wasn't the case, but reality isn't fading anytime soon. My son is more frazzled, cranky, whiny. My husband tends to bring out the worst in us. I'm nowhere near perfect like he likes to accuse me of acting, but I've tried, I've changed and done my best. Just last night I tried through all types of scenarios to envision myself with him in the future and I just can't. I believe the last time he left me whatever I had left for him died too. I've always loved him, but what can I do when he doesn't love me? Let him go is what I'm left with. It does hurt, extremely painful, but I'll live and be happy knowing I made the best possible decision for my son, who deserves everything I can possibly give him. If I can offer him some modicum of peace and happiness at the expense of losing his dad, I have only one choice.

I did find an app to record a few things by text but nothing damaging just yet. I still don't hate him, but I can't let him steal my life from me anymore. I feel so old.  :'(

Thanks for caring. Sorry I slipped away. I tend toward isolation when I'm depressed so as not to affect anyone else negatively. See you around.

[Herodias]

If you decide to leave be smart... .be ten steps ahead. It's tough but not worth being miserable.

[Kwamina]

Thanks for caring. Sorry I slipped away. I tend toward isolation when I'm depressed so as not to affect anyone else negatively. See you around.

That's why it helps to have a parrot! They can help you break free from your isolation

You label yourself quite harshly with words such as 'fool' and 'idiot'. Though you might have made certain mistakes, does that really mean you are a fool or an idiot? What is the definition of a fool or an idiot?

As you read the boards here, you will see many people trying time and time again, hoping for a different outcome time and time again. You see people taking their exes back in spite of everything they were put through, parents giving their whole life to try and save their children and children doing everything they can to be there for their disordered parents or other relatives. Are these people fools? They might have made certain mistakes, but are they fools? It is ok to make mistakes. Making mistakes does not make you a fool, it makes you human. It is also ok to believe in love and to keep hoping for love, that does not make you a fool, it makes you human:

"Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things."

Jesus said that a wise man considers the house before he builds it, to make sure he'll have what he needs and only a foolish man will build without first counting the cost. Unfortunately, I'm the latter, the fool. I didn't count the cost, at all. So I rightly deserve the price I've had to pay. It may be late in the game, but I've looked behind, now and ahead and I've counted the cost I'm still yet to pay, and I know at this rate I will literally die before it all gets paid. I may deserve it, but my son doesn't and that's why I won't give up. Every time I see his smiling face I'm reminded what the cost will be to him if I don't fight.

I got another quote from the bible for you: Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

And what did Jesus reply? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

My husband doesn't love me, doesn't even care for me. He's proven it over and over. I wish this wasn't the case, but reality isn't fading anytime soon.

This is a difficult reality to have to accept. I don't know if he loves you or not, perhaps he's simply not capable of expressing his love in a loving manner. Perhaps he's unwilling, who knows? What I do know based on what you've shared is that his behavior is hurtful to you and your son. No matter how you decide to move forward, my advice would be to keep making your own well-being and that of your son your number one priority. It would be great of course for your son to have a loving and supportive father around. Unfortunately however, his father is not loving nor supportive.

I still don't hate him, but I can't let him steal my life from me anymore. I feel so old.  :'(

You do not have to hate him, in fact I think it is better when you don't hold hate in your heart as it leads to bitterness and prevents you from healing and moving on. Hate keeps us stuck so I think it is very good that you do not hate him. Feeling angry and frustrated however about his behavior, would be quite understandable and justified. That you are feeling like you can't let him steal your life from you anymore, indicates that you've reached a certain limit and that now indeed is the time to start taking more care of yourself and putting your own needs and well-being first.

Herodias has given you some short yet very solid advice. Whatever you decide to do, careful planning and thinking ahead is crucial.

See you on the boards and I definitely encourage you to keep posting, even when, or perhaps especially when you depressed. You are worried about affecting others negatively, just want to let you know that we all have been through challenges and know how difficult things can be. We are all adults here so no need to worry. I for one am happy to hear from you again

[ForeverDad]

The hardest step is that first step forward.  (And don't look back.)  The next steps will become less and less difficult.

You don't need an incident or excuse to say, "It's not working."  You don't have to justify yourself, you have the past to support your decisions.  However, now that you let him move back, do you have a practical way to make him leave?

So is Scripture helpful?  I've got quite a selection, here's a few... .

"If anyone does not want to work, neither let him eat" ... .they should work quietly and eat food they themselves earn. — 1 Thessalonians 3:10,12

Idle hands will cause poverty, But diligent hands bring riches. — Proverbs 10:4

[purekalm]

Herodias,

Thanks for that. I often feel guilty for planning ahead, but I know it's important. 

ForeverDad,

Not looking back, or in my case questioning myself a million times over if I've made the right decision, that's the difficult part.  And there's other, currently no, there isn't a practical way at the moment. I plan on spending a short time to gather my thoughts, resolve, stop questioning myself and make a plan. He'll no doubt be angry when I end it with a practical plan, (he only wants me when I pull away anyways) but he will agree since I'll be 'the bad guy'. Besides, he obviously wants a way out even though he won't admit it outright.

Yes, I look to God because He's everything to me. I know it isn't popular opinion, but without God there's no way I would've made it. Yes, I've thought of those. The pastor at his church (he goes as he feels, no commitment) was the one to bring them up and all it did was fuel his rage and more 'poor me' crap. 

I used to wait for that incident since it just felt wrong to make him leave the rare times we'd get along. I realized that I was mirroring my mom's behavior with my dad. Always saying she had enough, waiting for the right time then bailing because he was sick or something. My reasons were different, but outcome the same and I'm just tired. I feel too old to keep playing his stupid games.


Kwamina,

Lol   Tis true my friend.

Yeah well, I've always been extra harsh on myself and more lenient with others. Isn't the definition of a fool someone who continues to do the same thing expecting a different result? So yes, I am. Others in the situations are not because they're trying to understand or help. I'm just over here being ridiculous wanting a man to love me like he said he did, knowing after seven years of nothing it isn't going to change... .

That's actually the quote I stood on. I just always asked, how do I know when I've suffered long enough, or is there no cut off and I just have to deal with it because I chose him? And believe me I know. At one point I did hate him and it was eating me up. It took a while but I was able to forgive him. Problem is, he is like this everyday so I'm constantly forgiving him to God to not hold it in and I do feel better and my skin is a little thicker.

He can't even have a general respect for me and usually responds to my very presence with contempt, that's not love. The people in his clan online are more family to him. I hear him talking and he knows more about their problems than he does mine and my son's. He tries to help them, laughs genuinely, spends hours and hours with them and his entire weekend. I was so bitter over that, but now it just is what it is and I've accepted that I won't receive love or care from him. I mean, all I've ever wanted is for someone to accept and love me for me, faults and all like I would them. Like I have him. Love always felt conditional with my parents and it actually is that way with him. It isn't like I haven't asked him why he loves me. IF he could name anything at all it was all about what I do for him, nothing about me, just for who I am. He acts like my standards are so high he'll never reach. The God's honest truth, what I outright asked him for was to treat me and our son with respect and do his part to work and be a dad. I didn't even mention love, just the bare minimum and that was too hard apparently.

Unfortunately I can get pretty dark and nasty when I'm depressed. I do my best to avoid everyone, or at least opening my mouth because I already know I'll hurt someone and that's not what I want to do. I want help when I feel that way but all that spews out is hate and bitterness. I've worked really hard to overcome this mood and so now it doesn't happen very often and when it does I usually get a grip on it before I give up. Months are down to hours and I'm VERY happy about that. No one can possibly hate me more than I do in those moments.

Well, you'd be the only one happy to hear. Even pastor's have given up on me when it took me longer than they deemed necessary to heal. I've been burned by 'people of God' my whole life, but God sure isn't them. Thank God! And I mean that. It's easy to feel unloved when you're weird and no one has ever really loved you besides God himself. But, if this is to be my lot so be it.

I do believe in love. I also believe it just wasn't meant for me.  It's ok, I've made it this far without it I'll be fine.

Thanks for all your responses.

[livednlearned]

Hi purekalm,

I'm sorry you feel foolish for taking him back. I understand how it feels to believe someone will change, to hope that you are special enough or meaningful enough to them that they will change for you. I recognize that road 

Over the years of healing, I do still hurt though I find comfort knowing that the drive to bond with a close other is deeply ingrained in being human. We may be fools for trying to repair a BPD relationship; we are also human for doing so.

As I learn more about BPD, I realize too that the desire to be who they want to be is genuine, and that desire is counter punched in powerful ways by an impulse-driven disorder that makes commitment nearly impossible -- the needs that they are trying to manage are too primitive that rising to the level of committed behaviors is too much. I see now how desperately my ex managed his excessive anxiety in ways that made it impossible for him to be the man he wanted (deep down) to be.

Be kind to yourself. I know that is easier said than done... .though it is the way through this to the other side. Being kind to myself is what finally made me realize I could set an example for how I wanted others to treat me.



LnL

[ForeverDad]

And if you have a hard time setting firm boundaries for yourself, then do it for the children (and thus aid yourself too).  It's not the healthiest but it can work and get you over the initial stuck feelings.

[Kwamina]

Isn't the definition of a fool someone who continues to do the same thing expecting a different result?

Perhaps... .but there is also such a thing as faith. Faith is being sure: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report... .And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Surely the elders weren't fools!

Months are down to hours and I'm VERY happy about that.

Definitely sounds like significant progress to me!

Well, you'd be the only one happy to hear. Even pastor's have given up on me when it took me longer than they deemed necessary to heal. I've been burned by 'people of God' my whole life, but God sure isn't them. Thank God! And I mean that. It's easy to feel unloved when you're weird and no one has ever really loved you besides God himself. But, if this is to be my lot so be it.

Good thing I'm a parrot then and not a pastor 'cause I just keep parroting over and over again! I would like to quote Pete Walker here, also not a pastor, not a parrot either (as fas as I know) yet still very wise: "Be patient with a slow recovery process... .Real recovery is a gradually progressive process (often two steps forward, one step back), not an attained salvation fantasy."

There is no time table for our healing or recovery. It takes as long as it takes and whatever it takes, but there is no time table for it. The most important thing is the process and focusing on the process so we try to do what we can to heal and recover. The results might not always be as pleasant as we desired, but we cannot control the results anyway. What we can try to control is what we do in the process and by doing so we can give ourselves a chance.

[purekalm]

livednlearned,

You're definitely right, I'm only human and didn't realize I was acting like I wasn't. 

I'm learning to be kind to myself, it's definitely easier said than done! I always tried to treat people like I would want to be treated and somehow along the way realized I was treating myself in the negative ways people were treating me, and worse!

ForeverDad,

I only have one child, but I have been working on it for years. I got a book titled Boundaries and it opened my eyes to so much. I still take it out and re-read it. God knows I forget to keep them or put them in place.

Kwamina,

That is correct. I have faith that whatever the outcome, if I ask and trust in his leading it will be the best course of action for all involved.

Yes, depression is so ugly. I never tried medication, especially after both my sisters were put on different meds for it at different times and became more suicidal than before. I have relied on God and stumbled my way through. I have realized through all this that besides there possibly being an imbalance somewhere, it's mainly due to my pain. I'll explain best I know how what I mean.

If you believe in God, which I do, then we weren't created to deal with pain in any sense of the word. The first two were perfect. As a result, I believe that our inner turmoil sometimes comes out with physical symptoms. This is not to mean there isn't physical or neurological issues beside this at all. For me, I harbored so much pain from every direction as a child. I didn't know what to do with it and had no one to help me figure it all out. So as a teen so much had built up it started coming out in snide remarks, moodiness, rebellion, apathy and realizing that I had been invalidated among other things. Still not having an outlet or knowing what to do, no one to trust I shoved it back in and while inside I was screaming and crying for someone to find me and help me, on the outside I practically radiated hate and for people to stay away, though not always.

I found God for real when I just didn't know what I was going to do anymore. From that day forward he began the slow process of healing me. With that came the emergence of all those feelings I had buried. I was surprised at the amount of hate and rage I had. I freaked out, not wanting to feel so kept trying stuff it. It only made me more angry. At first the depression came to let out all my feelings, and then when I could handle them again reasonably it came when I shut up my feelings and tried to ignore my pain. So over time, and I mean from the moment I truly accepted God's help to heal me til now is almost 8 years now God has been working on me. Now when I get depressed I can start asking myself before it gets real bad if there's something I'm not admitting to or am being hurt by that I'm holding in and if caught before I can't function right, it doesn't get the chance to take over. I used to recoil when people would suggest that it's all in my head, and even now I can't agree because it's not. Some people don't have the bad experiences and still suffer, and for some it could be a combination of things. But, what I have learned is that my pain played a huge role in making my life miserable long after I assumed it would. Depression wasn't the only side effect, but for me, it ruled my life with misery and doesn't anymore. I quite literally thank the Lord for his mercy and compassion.

Yeah, I had hoped for years for the salvation to be instant to no avail! Lol  That is so true. I tried so hard at first to just get over it already so I could get on with my life and figured out it wasn't going to happen. Every time I achieved something another mountain loomed over me. The worst part is that I could never see the other mountains until I climbed over them one by one and it frustrated me. Couldn't I just put 'em all together and deal with it at once? Lol I was so naive! I wouldn't have survived it, too much at once. I had learned to devalue my pain and so after I got married and he turned out to be like everyone else I wouldn't accept it for so long. I was ashamed of myself for choosing so poorly so I worked hard to fit pieces that didn't even exist together while battling my own demons from my FOO. Clearly, I was destined for a heap of trouble.

Thank you all once again. I do value your advice and opinions and I'm currently working on a plan that will suit my husband enough to agree while putting my son and me first. I'm counting the cost this time for real and I will make sure I've accepted it fully before I present it to him. No ultimatum or hoping my words will activate something in him, but laying out what I've decided is best and praying he will take it as best he can. He wants out already, so this should work. Thanks!

[ForeverDad]

We often mention the F.O.G. we all face... .Fear, Obligation, Guilt.

You may not have the Fear as much as the Obligation (I owe all effort to the marriage regardless the circumstances or sabotage) and Guilt (I should have tried harder or should try yet again, as though it were my fault or my sole responsibility to fix).

[ForeverDad]

It took a while but I was able to forgive him. Problem is, he is like this everyday so I'm constantly forgiving him to God to not hold it in and I do feel better and my skin is a little thicker.

When discussing forgiveness, I sometimes mention that forgiveness may have different meanings to different people.  Some may find it hard to deal with if they view forgiveness as an obligation when the other wouldn't respond appropriately to it, even abuse the forgiveness.  Since it may be like closure, something that we have to grant ourselves independent of the other's response, then it could better be a form of Letting Go and Moving On.

I recall from some 20 years ago my Ex's step sister came back when the stepfather was dying.  She had run away as a teen largely because her father, the SF, had abused her as a child.  But she returned feeling obligated that she had to forgive her (unrepentant) abuser before he died.  It was hard on her and and I never saw her again.

This forgiveness aspect reminds me of Jesus' illustration in Matthew 18:21-35.  A slave (similar to an indentured employee, not a non-person) owed the king an unimaginably huge debt. The slave begged for mercy and the king forgave the entire debt. Then the slave later met another slave and demand a small sum back and threw the other slave into prison. When the king learned of it, he was enraged, cancelled his prior forgiveness by reinstating the huge debt and threw that unappreciative slave into prison.

Besides the point that we should freely forgive, I also see another point, that if our forgiveness is not reciprocated at least to some extent by the other then we can reconsider, perhaps even cancel, our own forgiveness.

[purekalm]

ForeverDad,

Besides the point that we should freely forgive, I also see another point, that if our forgiveness is not reciprocated at least to some extent by the other then we can reconsider, perhaps even cancel, our own forgiveness.

I see what you are getting at, but to me, that was an example of how humans forgive. They say they do, but take it back whenever they feel like it. That's not the way it works. Jesus said to forgive "seventy times seven" which basically means every time. The reason being isn't for the other person, it's for me. I forgive him so I don't hold all the anger, disappointment and the like inside myself hurting myself more. When I let go of all that I feel so much better.

It doesn't change him one bit, it changes me. It helps me to realize that I have to accept him the way he is, and then decide what to do about that. Holding all those feelings inside I believe makes us more enmeshed with that person than we even want to.

It wasn't easy to forgive my parents either, who have done far more damage to me than my husband. My dad has made this whole other history where he was a great parent and husband, so my forgiveness of him will never be reciprocated, yet I still forgive him. Did they change? Did they all the sudden become the people I wished they had been? No, but I was more at peace inside.

Thanks for responding. Also, you don't have to forgive the abuser to their face either, just to yourself and God. =)

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[HopefulOne44]

Dear Purekalm,

I am so sorry for what you have been thru ((hugs))... .

I have read most of this thread and see there is a lot going on but for some reason your financial situation jumps out at me and I feel prompted to tell you to look into bankruotcy - chapter 7.  

I could share a lot about years of financial struggle amidst dealing with all the BPD/N drama with my udx husband, but I will just say that without a doubt, filing was one of the best decisions I ever made!

Once we had our free consult, our documents gathered and copied, and paid a $1500 filing fee, we had our  'Automatic Stay'.

This 'stay' invoked by the courts immediately freed up money for us, stopped collections on everything and ultimately (after one court date and a wait of a couple of months) the courts discharged all our debt except 2 of H's school loans.

This brought me immeasurable peace and hope for my future, financially of course, but also because I have been working to prepare (covertly) the past year for divorce.

Please research this option.  It sounds like it might be an option available to you if you qualify. Like me, you are no "dead beat", you are doing your best to survive and take care of your precious one, so there is no shame taking help if it is avalable and you need it.

FWIW, our credit is better than ever (3 cards and 7K of available credit I use responsibly to build my score) and have done this all without my H's knowledge so I can be prepared to file (for divorce) and care for myself and kids should H wig out and go into 'punisher mode' (as he did last time separated).

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions I might be able to answer for you.

My heart goes out to you. You'll get things sorted out.  Keep posting.

[purekalm]

HopefulOne44,

Thank you for the advice. Unfortunately, we already tried a couple years ago and even then we couldn't come up with the money needed to pay for it. We were supposed to bring in the money with paperwork to file and there was no way. At the time his paychecks were being garnished heavily for credit he had screwed up.

With no current income from him we're literally barely making it. Running out of necessities, behind on bills, drama with my parents, it's crap.

Thank you for reaching out though and I'm glad your situation has improved tremendously. The debt really just adds to the already insurmountable load to carry.

Sincerely,

Purekalm