Is 'no more cold sex' a boundary?

[Crumbling]

We were laying in bed this morning.  My BPDh rolls over and cuddles me, and, um, you know, there's this 'thing' between us.  I do nothing.  I lay there like I'm still sleeping.  He doesn't move, just lays there, too.  No stroking, no kissing, nothing.  After what seemed like forever, I got out of bed and started my day.

I've set a boundary for myself, sort of.  I don't really understand it myself, but a wall comes up for me when he 'initiates' sex now.  He doesn't really initiate at all, he just flaunts the idea of sex around to see if I'm game.  Initiating for him is him saying 'let's have sex', or 'I'm horny' or strutting around with his junk hanging out like he's dangling a carrot in front of me.    Like this morning... .

The only time we have ever had sex in this relationship is when I have responded to this empty 'call of the wild'.  I can't do it any more.  My body refuses.  I've given him ten years of being 'okay' with this, even though I haven't really been 'okay' with it at all (he says "it's part of his condition", ED).  I've been accepting of it, but not okay with it.

I told him that because we spent the first ten years of our marriage doing it his way, now it's my turn.  The next ten years, we do it my way.  Where it isn't a cold logically decision one makes, but an actual event of emotion.  Where we both feel draw in by passion.  His response was that that's almost impossible for him.  My response was, "that's okay, I know it's hard, but I've been doing something that has been hard for me for the past ten years, so it's your turn to try.  And I'm prepared to accept that we may not have sex again in the next ten years, if it comes to that."

So back to this morning... .he gets out of bed, does his morning routine, and then says "I'm horny".  Being true to myself, I say okay, I'll leave then so you can take care of things.  Because I"m not having sex with him if it starts from this path anymore.  If he needs a fix, he can fix himself!  He clued in to why I said what I did, got bent out of shape, and the day went downhill from there.  We fought several time through the day, to the point where I told him to just get out of here.  Our fights are tame now, compared to before, but they still hurt.  

Anyway, it's like he doesn't really ever want to have sex with me, it's just totally about him feeling ' uffed up' as a man or something.  I'm pulling my hair out here... .so fed up... .

I guess I really just need to know if I'm being unreasonable or if I'm right to put my foot down and say, enough 'for you', it's time 'for me'?

BTW- His ED condition is such that when he is sleeping things down there work for a little bit, but the minute he becomes fully awake, game over.  I know, this implies it's an emotional issue and not a physical one, but he still attests to it being physical, because of his back condition, because he's been like this for as long as he can remember.  And, no, he won't go to a sex therapist.

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[ColdEthyl]

Gees oh crimety! Mine is having ED issues too. I see a lot of sexual dysfunction involved with BPD. I wonder if these guys keep watching those stupid commercials on TV and start honestly asking themselves... .Am I man? Is my junk broken?

I think it's reasonable, but anything you suggest to them is going to come out as invalidation. All he hears his his way isn't good enough and you are rejecting him.

What would happen if you just started foreplay after he declared his hard on?

[Crumbling]

 

I feel dirty and used, because that's the only time it goes any further.

[Crumbling]

He will give me 'attention' when we get started, but it's this first step that sets me on a path where I'm battling negative emotions the whole time we are doing it, which, you know, isn't where a woman needs to be to feel... .satisfied. 

[ColdEthyl]

He will give me 'attention' when we get started, but it's this first step that sets me on a path where I'm battling negative emotions the whole time we are doing it, which, you know, isn't where a woman needs to be to feel... .satisfied.  

*Nods* It's quite the dilemma... .I'm trying to learn how to communicate my needs without setting off the BPD alarm. For the passed two years I've tried and it's like damn! I stepped on another mine! Time to start over... .

So is he trying to say he doesn't have 'time for foreplay' because he's racing against a clock for his erection to remain?

[MissyM]

I have the boundary of no sex without intimacy, and that sounds like what you are describing.  Is there a way to let your husband know that what you are wanting is more closeness and intimacy, not that it is a rejection of sex but that you are wanting more?  I have no idea how you get there without professional help.  For us, it didn't need to be a sex therapist but one that understood intimacy and attachment disorders.  (Of course my dBPDh also has sex addiction and other issues but at the core is the intimacy and attachment disorder).  I wish that we had gotten that kind of help earlier in our marriage, before the addictions started.  We instead went to a "sex therapist" and it was a huge mistake.  Is he willing to go to any kind of marital therapy?

[Edgewood]

Hi Crumbling,

Can you see how it would be difficult to define what "Where we both feel drawn in by passion" means?  Especially for a guy whose been getting along just fine for 10 years with, "Let's have sex"?  You haven't set the bar very high for him over the last decade.

In my experience, the most satisfying experiences have been when it's safe and comfortable to discuss what you want, what you like, what you'd like to try, etc.  I really think you're going to have to define this for him. Probably without subtlety.

He must be completely bewildered to suddenly be failing with the same approach that has been working for 10 years.

[Crumbling]

We actually communicate about sex a lot.  He isn't getting it.  I'm not asking for anything specific.  I just need to see an effort... .a peck on the cheek, a hug on the way by, a half off plant from the grocery stored, I don't know, something that says he can and does actually think about me sometimes.

[Crumbling]

I have the boundary of no sex without intimacy, and that sounds like what you are describing.  Is there a way to let your husband know that what you are wanting is more closeness and intimacy, not that it is a rejection of sex but that you are wanting more?  I have no idea how you get there without professional help.  For us, it didn't need to be a sex therapist but one that understood intimacy and attachment disorders.  (Of course my dBPDh also has sex addiction and other issues but at the core is the intimacy and attachment disorder).  I wish that we had gotten that kind of help earlier in our marriage, before the addictions started.  We instead went to a "sex therapist" and it was a huge mistake.  Is he willing to go to any kind of marital therapy?

This is it, no sex without intimacy, you got it!  He has been seeing a T for almost a year exactly, now.  I'm waiting for one... .here it's a slow process.  Once we have that in place we may... .he's home gotta go.  thanks all!  keep posting, I"ll read later.   

[Jessica84]

We actually communicate about sex a lot.  He isn't getting it.  I'm not asking for anything specific.  I just need to see an effort... .a peck on the cheek, a hug on the way by, a half off plant from the grocery stored, I don't know, something that says he can and does actually think about me sometimes.

It's ok to ask for something specific. In fact, not a bad idea. You can let him know romantic gestures turn you on, but my guess is that's too subtle. You may have to give him some examples like the ones you mentioned above. It's also ok to ask for specifics in the bedroom. In my experience, this is one area where men don't mind a woman giving them "directions"... .if it gets them to their destination. 

Think about your needs/wants are and let him know. As someone pointed out, "let's have sex" worked for many years. He needs you to give him new directions now.

[Notwendy]

I don't have time to write much now, but I had to respond because reading your first post I didn't know if I was laughing or crying, because I could identify with what you are saying. This is one of the saddest issues I have faced. It has changed me emotionally, because for me, love, intimacy and physical intimacy were all in one for me, and they have been separated by this experience. I have only been with my H for so long that I can hardly remember it in a different way. It has so changed my ability to connect with that kind of feeling. I don't even look at men- it's as if they all are invisible to me. I think, even Brad Pitt could show up at my door in his Troy uniform and I would not feel an attraction. ( and I am straight)

Is this really the way things are in marriage? Sometimes I think something else must not exist.

[vortex of confusion]

It's ok to ask for something specific. In fact, not a bad idea. You can let him know romantic gestures turn you on, but my guess is that's too subtle. You may have to give him some examples like the ones you mentioned above. It's also ok to ask for specifics in the bedroom. In my experience, this is one area where men don't mind a woman giving them "directions"... .if it gets them to their destination. 

A regular man may not mind getting directions but mine sure as heck didn't like it. One little comment like, "Move a little this way" or "Ouch, not like that." and BAM, we were done because he would get all sulky and pouty and who the heck can maintain any kind of interest when a word or two to get things going in the right direction leads to him shutting down.

Define romantic gesture. . .

Stepping away from me to let a big stinky fart is about as romantic as it gets sometimes!

Think about your needs/wants are and let him know. As someone pointed out, "let's have sex" worked for many years. He needs you to give him new directions now.

Giving mine new directions never really worked. I have finally put a boundary in place where there is NO sex and I won't even sleep in the same bed with him so that he doesn't try anything with me. But, I feel completely justified because I am doing it to protect myself. For years, he couldn't/wouldn't get excited over me. I found a "magic" button but it was not something that I could live with.

[Grey Kitty]

Crumbling, it sounds like you have a bunch of problems related to sex:

1. No romance and no intimacy from him.

2. No foreplay from him.

3. He's got ED.

4. You are pissed, resentful as hell, and shut down because of #1 & #2 for the last decade.

5. He's touchy about the subject.

One thought that would help both #2 and #3 is changing your definition of sex to include things besides intercourse. I'm not clear if that would be a major shift for you or not.

A regular man may not mind getting directions but mine sure as heck didn't like it. One little comment like, "Move a little this way" or "Ouch, not like that." and BAM, we were done because he would get all sulky and pouty and who the heck can maintain any kind of interest when a word or two to get things going in the right direction leads to him shutting down.

I think of myself as a regular man... .I'm kinda sensitive to criticism around sex from my BPDw. If criticism only comes after it is too late to possibly salvage the time in the bedroom, and a full-blown sulking dysregulated rage is forecast, even a 'normal' guy can respond badly to criticism!

So let me offer a suggestion for you ladies if you need to direct your man: Tell him what you LIKE. Let him know when he's doing it RIGHT. Tell him what you WANT him to do. If at all possible, don't tell him he's doing it wrong!

There is a big difference between "I like it on the left", "Move over to the left", and "I don't like it on the right."

(I'm using words here, but tone and other non-verbal cues are important... .and hard to convey here)

[vortex of confusion]

So let me offer a suggestion for you ladies if you need to direct your man: Tell him what you LIKE. Let him know when he's doing it RIGHT. Tell him what you WANT him to do. If at all possible, don't tell him he's doing it wrong!

Hmmm. . .yes, very true! What about those instances where you tell them what you like only to have them do the opposite. It is like, "Oh hey, I like [fill in the blank]." So they do the opposite to which I respond, "Hey, I don't like this other thing." It like telling him I don't like jewelry only to have him get me jewelry and then wonder why the heck I am perplexed or unhappy.

(I'm using words here, but tone and other non-verbal cues are important... .and hard to convey here)

In my case, I think a lot of problems were caused by the non-verbal stuff. His little sighs if I didn't react a certain way. The overall tone was not one that said, "Ooo baby, you are my wife and I want you." It was more like, "Oh hey, where is the blow up doll."

[MissyM]

In my case, I think a lot of problems were caused by the non-verbal stuff. His little sighs if I didn't react a certain way. The overall tone was not one that said, "Ooo baby, you are my wife and I want you." It was more like, "Oh hey, where is the blow up doll."

Yeah, no intimacy is like that.  My dBPDh used to look at me like I was nuts when I would say he wasn't present during sex, now he gets it.  What has motivated him to work on it more was that the few times he was able to do it sex was amazing.  Now this is the only way we have sex and I don't think he would be motivated except he can tell the difference, also.

I think of myself as a regular man... .I'm kinda sensitive to criticism around sex from my BPDw. If criticism only comes after it is too late to possibly salvage the time in the bedroom, and a full-blown sulking dysregulated rage is forecast, even a 'normal' guy can respond badly to criticism!

Never had any issues with a regular guy, actually my dBPDh is the only guy I have had an issue with around sex.  Sexual abuse can affect people that way, male or female.  So not sure if others are dealing with a spouse suffering from that form of abuse, but it is clearly so for my husband.   

[anxiety5]

We were laying in bed this morning.  My BPDh rolls over and cuddles me, and, um, you know, there's this 'thing' between us.  I do nothing.  I lay there like I'm still sleeping.  He doesn't move, just lays there, too.  No stroking, no kissing, nothing.  After what seemed like forever, I got out of bed and started my day.

I've set a boundary for myself, sort of.  I don't really understand it myself, but a wall comes up for me when he 'initiates' sex now.  He doesn't really initiate at all, he just flaunts the idea of sex around to see if I'm game.  Initiating for him is him saying 'let's have sex', or 'I'm horny' or strutting around with his junk hanging out like he's dangling a carrot in front of me.   Like this morning... .

The only time we have ever had sex in this relationship is when I have responded to this empty 'call of the wild'.  I can't do it any more.  My body refuses.  I've given him ten years of being 'okay' with this, even though I haven't really been 'okay' with it at all (he says "it's part of his condition", ED).  I've been accepting of it, but not okay with it.

I told him that because we spent the first ten years of our marriage doing it his way, now it's my turn.  The next ten years, we do it my way.  Where it isn't a cold logically decision one makes, but an actual event of emotion.  Where we both feel draw in by passion.  His response was that that's almost impossible for him.  My response was, "that's okay, I know it's hard, but I've been doing something that has been hard for me for the past ten years, so it's your turn to try.  And I'm prepared to accept that we may not have sex again in the next ten years, if it comes to that."

So back to this morning... .he gets out of bed, does his morning routine, and then says "I'm horny".  Being true to myself, I say okay, I'll leave then so you can take care of things.  Because I"m not having sex with him if it starts from this path anymore.  If he needs a fix, he can fix himself!  He clued in to why I said what I did, got bent out of shape, and the day went downhill from there.  We fought several time through the day, to the point where I told him to just get out of here.  Our fights are tame now, compared to before, but they still hurt. 

Anyway, it's like he doesn't really ever want to have sex with me, it's just totally about him feeling 'puffed up' as a man or something.  I'm pulling my hair out here... .so fed up... .

I guess I really just need to know if I'm being unreasonable or if I'm right to put my foot down and say, enough 'for you', it's time 'for me'?

BTW- His ED condition is such that when he is sleeping things down there work for a little bit, but the minute he becomes fully awake, game over.  I know, this implies it's an emotional issue and not a physical one, but he still attests to it being physical, because of his back condition, because he's been like this for as long as he can remember.  And, no, he won't go to a sex therapist.

My ex went from the most sexually charged person I've ever met, us being together 2-3 times a day, passionately, to nearly a-sexual in a year. Towards the end she never initiated it, would create situations to seduce and then play tired and leave you hanging. She only ever wanted one position, and me doing all the work, she would immediately lose interest as soon as she was satisfied, and told me that foreplay was a waste of time, she'd rather just get to the point of it. As a guy, this sounds like a dream come true (when you're 18) And I wouldn't fault her if she just had a hard time with high levels of passion. But the intensity it was for so long, and the rapid decent to no effort along with some of the things she'd say during such as "you are mine now." Make me realize in retrospect that she used it as a tool to totally hook me. Like a drug, you bombard someone with endless overflowing amounts. Then when you abruptly stop the supply, they are putty in your hands. This is highly abusive the fact it's done with the intent to put oneself in the one up position and gain control. It's a total power play. I would also say she was highly narcissistic with a sprinkle of sadist. She would get turned on by things like verbal scenarios of some future time where I have a family and she calls me and still has power over me and I leave them to come meet her. Cheating turned her on big time. I have no doubt that this type of woman would turn a man into the proverbial cuckold. Every scenario that turned her on had to deal with her in power. If I said she was hot, she would answer "I know" followed by things like how everyone she ever talks to stares at her and wants her. I played along with a lot of this because that type of stuff doesn't bother me whatever. To each his own. But when I started to realize there was a charged pathology behind it, it kind of freaked me out. 

I didn't mind most of it. It was good for the most part until she started doing the control stuff and withholding. Also once she cheated, that turned all those games she played into a sick kind of twisted real life play, and I just realized overall she's "off"

[Notwendy]

Giving directions doesn't work well- verbal or non verbal. Just about anything can be interpreted as a criticism. After years of rejections, criticising me for what I do or don't do, it's just not possible to put my heart into it. He wants the "passion" back and it isn't easy to do that. If you've ever been raged at for asking, or had your H refuse to kiss you for weeks because he thought you were giving him orders-it takes something away.

If I knew then what I know now, I would not have taken what he said to me in those "rages" to heart, but I didn't then, and I believed it. If I sound sad and bitter, I am. It's hard to talk about this and not cry.

Once a while back he told me " his sex life was over" for reasons I don't know. We were having sex- we used to be physical. This is not a marriage where he was deprived, but he had painted me black.  That was probably just a disregulated rage, but saying this to a young wife in love with you doesn't make for a happy physical life.

[Notwendy]

Edgewood has a point about the man being confused after 10 years of having the bar raised so low. I am guilty of that too. However, it was a response to being raged at if I asked for anything more, and also if I said "no". It was easier to just get on with it and go to sleep rather than argue and rage for hours.

Out marriage T has discussed this, the idea of saying yes when you mean yes, and no when you mean no. She tells me I have been a part of this, and I have in the sense that it was easier to disconnect than to get my feelings hurt. I just think that these issues must go hand in hand with the other ones, insecurity, intimacy.

I have been told that sex is a way for men to connect and feel affirmed. This is one reason I choose to continue to have sex, cold or not, just to keep some connection. Since I connect through talking, and that is hardly possible, I'm not willing to let go of a way to connect with him.

[Jessica84]

I probably should've clarified what I meant by "giving directions"... I doubt ANY man wants to be told left-right-over-up-there-not there... unless he's into that.

What I meant was more like what GK described, and much more validating-- mostly NON-verbal cues (moans, body/hip movements, putting his hands where I wanted them) - these clued him in to when he was doing something I liked. So he did more of that. And I would be less responsive (quiet, still, looking or slightly pulling away) when he did something blah or I plain didn't like. He tuned in pretty quickly and learned what I liked and didn't without my having to tell him or criticize him. He licks my ear, nada. He licks my neck, I might moan or arch my back... .so guess which one he did more? Didn't work every time, but he had enough in his playbook to mix it up!

Mine also has ED, is a bit older than me, and was sexually abused as a child (by a male) - so insecure and extremely sensitive to criticism. The non-verbal cues were less threatening and avoid him feeling like a bad lover, criticized or rejected.

PS-- If you are going to TELL him what to do, try whispering it softly in his ear, or say it in a sexy voice... .that works too. 

[vortex of confusion]

What I meant was more like what GK described, and much more validating-- mostly NON-verbal cues (moans, body/hip movements, putting his hands where I wanted them) - these clued him in to when he was doing something I liked. So he did more of that. And I would be less responsive (quiet, still, looking or slightly pulling away) when he did something blah or I plain didn't like. He tuned in pretty quickly and learned what I liked and didn't without my having to tell him or criticize him. He licks my ear, nada. He licks my neck, I might moan or arch my back... .so guess which one he did more? Didn't work every time, but he had enough in his playbook to mix it up!

That only works with somebody that understands non-verbal cues. My husband does NOT seem to understand non-verbal cues. He gets so focused on himself and what he wants that he will miss those non-verbal cues. It is really frustrating to try to communicate with somebody in the heat of passion only to have them ignore it, not hear it, OR get upset IF they do happen to hear or pick up on something.

It is due to pure selfishness mixed with lack of intimacy. After all, a blow up doll is there for his pleasure!

[Grey Kitty]

That only works with somebody that understands non-verbal cues. My husband does NOT seem to understand non-verbal cues. He gets so focused on himself and what he wants that he will miss those non-verbal cues. It is really frustrating to try to communicate with somebody in the heat of passion only to have them ignore it, not hear it, OR get upset IF they do happen to hear or pick up on something.

It is due to pure selfishness mixed with lack of intimacy. After all, a blow up doll is there for his pleasure!

Uhg.

Sorry to sound harsh, but this is my take on your description, VOC.

Bad sex. VERY bad sex.

If he doesn't even care about your pleasure... .buy him a blow-up doll, I guess. 

If you have sex alone, you may feel lonely, but at least you won't feel used and dirty too.

[Jessica84]

I'm so sorry VOC 

I thought most men (even those with ED and BPD) got pleasure out of pleasing a woman but didn't all know how... I guess some can be pretty selfish. Hang in there. Let him play with his doll and go buy yourself a new toy!

[MissyM]

That only works with somebody that understands non-verbal cues. My husband does NOT seem to understand non-verbal cues. He gets so focused on himself and what he wants that he will miss those non-verbal cues.

So sorry VOC, that makes a relationship very lonely.  Yup, another thing our husbands have in common.  The nonverbal clues that I had always been able to use with lovers never worked at all with my dBPDh.  What did work was talking about sex outside of the experience, like pointing out what really was good for me or what was less enjoyable.  I had to be very careful about how and when we had these discussions and really focus on reinforcing what I liked mostly and just a little on what didn't work.  Of course, we were both working on ourselves before we had these discussions.  The majority of our marriage there was little to no sex, something I was very angry about.  And no intimacy makes great sex impossible, that includes the intimacy of expressing my sexual needs and desires.  Now he is more open to hearing what I like during the experience and not take it as a judgment, that has been a huge change.  (He still can't read non-verbal clues, but he has a very hard time reading emotions from me correctly)

[vortex of confusion]

So sorry VOC, that makes a relationship very lonely.  Yup, another thing our husbands have in common.  The nonverbal clues that I had always been able to use with lovers never worked at all with my dBPDh.  What did work was talking about sex outside of the experience, like pointing out what really was good for me or what was less enjoyable.  I had to be very careful about how and when we had these discussions and really focus on reinforcing what I liked mostly and just a little on what didn't work.  Of course, we were both working on ourselves before we had these discussions.  The majority of our marriage there was little to no sex, something I was very angry about.  And no intimacy makes great sex impossible, that includes the intimacy of expressing my sexual needs and desires.  Now he is more open to hearing what I like during the experience and not take it as a judgment, that has been a huge change.  (He still can't read non-verbal clues, but he has a very hard time reading emotions from me correctly)

Ah, I think you just shed light on something else that I wasn't realizing. The discussions about stuff outside the experience tended to be him looking for praise and anything that is not falling all over myself with praise for him is taken personally or as a criticism. I end up feeling really bad because I don't know how to talk about it without hurting his feelings. I know it is a very touchy subject. I don't want to bruise his ego but I also don't want to lie. It has been very difficult territory to navigate. I don't like those kinds of discussions because I feel like I am in a position where I have to praise him for something that isn't really satisfying.

[vortex of confusion]

It is weird, FF.  But I never had a guy treat me like that besides my dBPDh.  I don't think most guys want sex like that.  My first husband also had sexually compulsive issues but he was the kind of BPD that was obsessed with me.  We fought about his constant need for sex but he refused to have sex unless I was fully participating, he thought that was an awful experience.  So I don't get guys that are ok with unconnected sex.  Just not enjoyable at all.  Think sometimes guys that have healthy sexuality assume that all guys have that, which just isn't the case.  Of course, before my current husband I had no idea that someone could be so out of touch with their body.

I have the same experience as you MissyM (yet again). The lack of connection never really occurred to me because I didn't really think it was possible. My husband was only the second or third guy that I was ever with so I didn't have a lot of experience. Something always felt a bit off but I wasn't sure what it was. I dug into my memory banks to think about the first guy I was with and what it was about him. He wasn't great but there was a lot of connection. I was also thinking about a comment that somebody else made about bad sex. Not sure if it was in this thread or the other one on a similar topic. I didn't have a problem with it early on because there was so much other stuff going on outside of the bedroom (flirting, silliness, laughter, etc.) that I didn't really think too much about the bedroom stuff.

And being out of touch with the body! I hadn't really thought of it like that but you are soo right.

[vortex of confusion]

What I'm getting from several of the ladies on here... .is that the sex account has been overdrawn for several years... .and they are about to close the account.

I can't understand why the dudes don't just "pretend"... .and rub some backs... .give some hugs... .whatever.

I get it... .the PD part of the equation throws everything off kilter... .but still... .

You have made me chuckle a couple of times. Yes, the account is very overdrawn. It is really, really frustrating for me to read stuff about trying this or that. I have tried a whole lot of different stuff. Like you, I don't understand how a partner can NOT pretend or put forth a little extra effort. I have been doing it for years and it sounds like a lot of us that have this frustration have been doing the same.

The really, really frustrating part is that there is a bit of a sexist element to all of this. I am not sure where I have gotten this idea but it seems like if a woman is having problems in the bedroom it is because she isn't doing enough or there is something wrong with her. She isn't putting out enough. She isn't dressing right. She isn't adventurous enough. I have heard a lot of different reasons. There is a lot of pressure on women to please their men. I don't hear nearly as much about men pleasing women. It seems almost like a foregone conclusion that if there is a problem then it is because of the woman being too busy. There was an article that was posted not too long ago called "5 Reasons You Should Have Sex With Your Husband Every Night." www.huffingtonpost.com/meg-conley/five-reasons-you-should-h_b_5647291.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

That article made me so darned mad. I actually wrote a big long response to it because it made me livid to have one more person say something that indicated that it was MY fault. Participating in this thread has been so unbelievably helpful for me.

And, not to leave out the guys! Yes, it is sexy when a guy cleans the house but it isn't nearly as sexy as a guy that cleans without expectation. And, it is even sexier when a guy is strong and confident and acts like he really wants to be with you. If my husband stood in front of me with a load of laundry naked, I would likely say, ":)arn, you better get those clothes washed so you can get dressed before you get cold."  

[Crumbling]

I'm with you on that one VoC... .every site I go on looking for info on how to deal with ED in a marriage stresses that it's all about what the WOMEN needs to work on... .I'm sorry, but bug off!  I've done everything possible over the last ten years for HIM.  And from what I'm hearing here, doing so has actually hurt us and not helped.  

Grey Kitty, you're right, I am bitter and hurt.  I've expressed, I've asked, I've been patient, I've pleaded, I've explained, I've gone with the punches.  I'm anger that I'm not being heard.  You acknowledging my feelings made me sigh with relief.  Thank you.

All that being said... .We had a good discussion this morning.  I said I wished there wasn't so much baggage around sex for us and that we could just do it.  That got his attention, and he sat up to listen.  Then I didn't know what else to say.  I"ve said it all before.  So I  repeated that I just need to feel like he is making an effort to get me to where he is, on the passion scale, lets say.  

I gave exact examples of where he has done little things in the past that have helped me feel like he's making an effort.  FF's 'do it for her' attitude helped, especially when he said "why can't the dudes just pretend," (That's a million dollar question if ever I heard one!) Anyway, I used that and said, what do you do for me, that I like that you don't necessarily like?  He couldn't name one.  He knows what I like, I've been drilling it in for years.   

He wont use any lotion or oil to give me a body rub, he doesn't like the feel of it on his hands.  A dry rub just isn't quite the same thing.

He wont join me in the tub, tub water is dirty.

He wont touch my breasts, because there's clothes in the way.  Even tho 85% of the time, I'm not wearing a bra.

He wont just give me a random hug, because I might not be up for it.  (I'm always up for it, but I think the adults in his life as a kid may have rejected his affections a lot.  He was brought up by a single mom and she was a addict and manic depressive.  She also drank herself to death.)

He doesn't like to just lay in bed together and read or cuddle or something, it hurts his back.

I'm telling you, everything I suggest, he has an excuse not to do.  And once it was in his face as a fact, he simply nodded and said, ':)uely noted' and left to blow snow.  I guess we'll have to wait for the 'rest of the story' on that one... .dundundun... .

I also thought about the suggestion of redefining sex... .it's not actually the sex I have the most trouble with, it's the foreplay, or the lack there of, maybe.

Maybe part of it is normal boredom because we have had such little diversity from the norm.  I have way more sexual experiences than he does, and I think that intimidates him a little.  We don't talk about our past sex lives.  The idea is that that was then, this is now, and we are starting over with each other from scrap.  I'm really questioning this logic now, ten years into it.  I think talking about it would make it less intimidating, but he refuses.  :)oesn't want to be compared?  I just don't know.

I'm beginning to realize that there may also be a lot of the Mars vs Venus issue going on, too.  He has no clue with women, never has.  He often says we are a strange creation, us women.   I doubt he has ever fought for a woman's attention, either.  He got mine quite easily, I must admit.  I see where forcing him into doing that now would be uncomfortable for him... .but so what.  I've been 'uncomfortable' long enough.  

I wish I could tell him to grow up and grow some balls... .be brave and try for once to do something for someone else.  Any suggestions as to how I can phrase that using SET?

   Once again, I'm comforted, and yet saddened, by how many of us have the same issues.  Thanks to all for your input.  What a great bunch!

[Crumbling]

What is foreplay?  If sex becomes more broadly defined, then at what point does it go from foreplay to sex? 

The reality of our situation is that he has to just get the magic thought, whatever it is, and he is primed, ready to go then can't figure out why I'm not.  Like him wanting it should be enough to turn me on.  If I lived my whole life that way, I would have had sex with hundreds of men by now - Dr Ruth look out!  (Oh, my if that comment doesn't age me nothing will.  )

A couple was being interviewed in their own home last night on the news.  He was sitting back, one arm across the back of the sofa, and she was snuggled in next to him, in that little safe spot, legs touching, her hand on his thigh.  I caught myself longing for that simple ease a couple can have with each other, just sitting together.  Even that doesn't happen in our house.  Like someone else said, I'm not sure I even remember what normal is, anymore.

Any slight hint that there may be a challenge involved in getting us there and he shuts down.  I'm tired of it.  If he's not willing to make the effort, I'm not willing to participate.  No one has said I'm wrong thinking this way, but I have heard some reference to how it may make him feel.  I do take his feelings/issues into consideration as much as possible.

I am holding no stock in things being different when he comes home this afternoon.  We've had conversations that have ended that way before, and still nothing changes.  I was being dramatic with the whole 'rest of the story' bit... .and maybe a bit overly hopeful.

I know for sure now, he certainly has big intimacy issues.  To think they will always be there, makes me want to run away and join the circus!  I must find a way to address these issues, I just have to.

[Grey Kitty]

What is foreplay? What happens if you broadly define sex? TRY IT!

Here's a suggestion... .yes, something that Dan Savage has advised... .I keep going back to him on sex issues, 'cuz he is willing and able to talk bluntly and intelligently about them... .if you can get your H to read/listen/follow him, he might get a ___ing clue or two to rub together!

Try setting a period of time... .when there would normally be fair bit of sex, like a month... .and take intercourse OFF THE MENU.

You and he can do anything you want with each other, except that.

This kind of program would help both with ED issues and with the "woman isn't getting anything that works for her" issues.

crumbling, would your H be willing to try something like this?

[vortex of confusion]

I'm with you on that one VoC... .every site I go on looking for info on how to deal with ED in a marriage stresses that it's all about what the WOMEN needs to work on... .I'm sorry, but bug off!  I've done everything possible over the last ten years for HIM.  And from what I'm hearing here, doing so has actually hurt us and not helped.  

LOL. I had to laugh at this or I might cry. I know exactly how you feel.

All that being said... .We had a good discussion this morning.  I said I wished there wasn't so much baggage around sex for us and that we could just do it.  That got his attention, and he sat up to listen.  Then I didn't know what else to say.  I"ve said it all before.  So I  repeated that I just need to feel like he is making an effort to get me to where he is, on the passion scale, lets say.  

I have been thinking a lot about this because my husband and I have lots of baggage too. I was trying to think back to the early parts of our relationship when I was pretty content with "bad sex". The reason that I was content with it back then was because of all of the things that my husband used to do outside of the bedroom. When my kids were little and when I was pregnant, he was great. He let me sit in my recliner and nurse my babies and would bring me drinks and snacks. He would help me by walking the floor with them and singing to them. He would do so much to give me the space to be the kind of mom that I wanted to be. Because of that, all he had to do was show up in the bedroom and I made sure he was taken care of as often as he wanted or needed. All of my passion and desire starts outside of the bedroom. When he stopped doing those sweet things outside of the bedroom, I stopped being satisfied in the bedroom because it felt like he was getting ALL of the benefits and I was getting nothing.