Is 'no more cold sex' a boundary?

[Crumbling]

We were laying in bed this morning.  My BPDh rolls over and cuddles me, and, um, you know, there's this 'thing' between us.  I do nothing.  I lay there like I'm still sleeping.  He doesn't move, just lays there, too.  No stroking, no kissing, nothing.  After what seemed like forever, I got out of bed and started my day.

I've set a boundary for myself, sort of.  I don't really understand it myself, but a wall comes up for me when he 'initiates' sex now.  He doesn't really initiate at all, he just flaunts the idea of sex around to see if I'm game.  Initiating for him is him saying 'let's have sex', or 'I'm horny' or strutting around with his junk hanging out like he's dangling a carrot in front of me.    Like this morning... .

The only time we have ever had sex in this relationship is when I have responded to this empty 'call of the wild'.  I can't do it any more.  My body refuses.  I've given him ten years of being 'okay' with this, even though I haven't really been 'okay' with it at all (he says "it's part of his condition", ED).  I've been accepting of it, but not okay with it.

I told him that because we spent the first ten years of our marriage doing it his way, now it's my turn.  The next ten years, we do it my way.  Where it isn't a cold logically decision one makes, but an actual event of emotion.  Where we both feel draw in by passion.  His response was that that's almost impossible for him.  My response was, "that's okay, I know it's hard, but I've been doing something that has been hard for me for the past ten years, so it's your turn to try.  And I'm prepared to accept that we may not have sex again in the next ten years, if it comes to that."

So back to this morning... .he gets out of bed, does his morning routine, and then says "I'm horny".  Being true to myself, I say okay, I'll leave then so you can take care of things.  Because I"m not having sex with him if it starts from this path anymore.  If he needs a fix, he can fix himself!  He clued in to why I said what I did, got bent out of shape, and the day went downhill from there.  We fought several time through the day, to the point where I told him to just get out of here.  Our fights are tame now, compared to before, but they still hurt.  

Anyway, it's like he doesn't really ever want to have sex with me, it's just totally about him feeling ' uffed up' as a man or something.  I'm pulling my hair out here... .so fed up... .

I guess I really just need to know if I'm being unreasonable or if I'm right to put my foot down and say, enough 'for you', it's time 'for me'?

BTW- His ED condition is such that when he is sleeping things down there work for a little bit, but the minute he becomes fully awake, game over.  I know, this implies it's an emotional issue and not a physical one, but he still attests to it being physical, because of his back condition, because he's been like this for as long as he can remember.  And, no, he won't go to a sex therapist.

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[ColdEthyl]

Gees oh crimety! Mine is having ED issues too. I see a lot of sexual dysfunction involved with BPD. I wonder if these guys keep watching those stupid commercials on TV and start honestly asking themselves... .Am I man? Is my junk broken?

I think it's reasonable, but anything you suggest to them is going to come out as invalidation. All he hears his his way isn't good enough and you are rejecting him.

What would happen if you just started foreplay after he declared his hard on?

[Crumbling]

 

I feel dirty and used, because that's the only time it goes any further.

[Crumbling]

He will give me 'attention' when we get started, but it's this first step that sets me on a path where I'm battling negative emotions the whole time we are doing it, which, you know, isn't where a woman needs to be to feel... .satisfied. 

[ColdEthyl]

He will give me 'attention' when we get started, but it's this first step that sets me on a path where I'm battling negative emotions the whole time we are doing it, which, you know, isn't where a woman needs to be to feel... .satisfied.  

*Nods* It's quite the dilemma... .I'm trying to learn how to communicate my needs without setting off the BPD alarm. For the passed two years I've tried and it's like damn! I stepped on another mine! Time to start over... .

So is he trying to say he doesn't have 'time for foreplay' because he's racing against a clock for his erection to remain?

[MissyM]

I have the boundary of no sex without intimacy, and that sounds like what you are describing.  Is there a way to let your husband know that what you are wanting is more closeness and intimacy, not that it is a rejection of sex but that you are wanting more?  I have no idea how you get there without professional help.  For us, it didn't need to be a sex therapist but one that understood intimacy and attachment disorders.  (Of course my dBPDh also has sex addiction and other issues but at the core is the intimacy and attachment disorder).  I wish that we had gotten that kind of help earlier in our marriage, before the addictions started.  We instead went to a "sex therapist" and it was a huge mistake.  Is he willing to go to any kind of marital therapy?

[Edgewood]

Hi Crumbling,

Can you see how it would be difficult to define what "Where we both feel drawn in by passion" means?  Especially for a guy whose been getting along just fine for 10 years with, "Let's have sex"?  You haven't set the bar very high for him over the last decade.

In my experience, the most satisfying experiences have been when it's safe and comfortable to discuss what you want, what you like, what you'd like to try, etc.  I really think you're going to have to define this for him. Probably without subtlety.

He must be completely bewildered to suddenly be failing with the same approach that has been working for 10 years.

[Crumbling]

We actually communicate about sex a lot.  He isn't getting it.  I'm not asking for anything specific.  I just need to see an effort... .a peck on the cheek, a hug on the way by, a half off plant from the grocery stored, I don't know, something that says he can and does actually think about me sometimes.

[Crumbling]

I have the boundary of no sex without intimacy, and that sounds like what you are describing.  Is there a way to let your husband know that what you are wanting is more closeness and intimacy, not that it is a rejection of sex but that you are wanting more?  I have no idea how you get there without professional help.  For us, it didn't need to be a sex therapist but one that understood intimacy and attachment disorders.  (Of course my dBPDh also has sex addiction and other issues but at the core is the intimacy and attachment disorder).  I wish that we had gotten that kind of help earlier in our marriage, before the addictions started.  We instead went to a "sex therapist" and it was a huge mistake.  Is he willing to go to any kind of marital therapy?

This is it, no sex without intimacy, you got it!  He has been seeing a T for almost a year exactly, now.  I'm waiting for one... .here it's a slow process.  Once we have that in place we may... .he's home gotta go.  thanks all!  keep posting, I"ll read later.   

[Jessica84]

We actually communicate about sex a lot.  He isn't getting it.  I'm not asking for anything specific.  I just need to see an effort... .a peck on the cheek, a hug on the way by, a half off plant from the grocery stored, I don't know, something that says he can and does actually think about me sometimes.

It's ok to ask for something specific. In fact, not a bad idea. You can let him know romantic gestures turn you on, but my guess is that's too subtle. You may have to give him some examples like the ones you mentioned above. It's also ok to ask for specifics in the bedroom. In my experience, this is one area where men don't mind a woman giving them "directions"... .if it gets them to their destination. 

Think about your needs/wants are and let him know. As someone pointed out, "let's have sex" worked for many years. He needs you to give him new directions now.

[Notwendy]

I don't have time to write much now, but I had to respond because reading your first post I didn't know if I was laughing or crying, because I could identify with what you are saying. This is one of the saddest issues I have faced. It has changed me emotionally, because for me, love, intimacy and physical intimacy were all in one for me, and they have been separated by this experience. I have only been with my H for so long that I can hardly remember it in a different way. It has so changed my ability to connect with that kind of feeling. I don't even look at men- it's as if they all are invisible to me. I think, even Brad Pitt could show up at my door in his Troy uniform and I would not feel an attraction. ( and I am straight)

Is this really the way things are in marriage? Sometimes I think something else must not exist.

[vortex of confusion]

It's ok to ask for something specific. In fact, not a bad idea. You can let him know romantic gestures turn you on, but my guess is that's too subtle. You may have to give him some examples like the ones you mentioned above. It's also ok to ask for specifics in the bedroom. In my experience, this is one area where men don't mind a woman giving them "directions"... .if it gets them to their destination. 

A regular man may not mind getting directions but mine sure as heck didn't like it. One little comment like, "Move a little this way" or "Ouch, not like that." and BAM, we were done because he would get all sulky and pouty and who the heck can maintain any kind of interest when a word or two to get things going in the right direction leads to him shutting down.

Define romantic gesture. . .

Stepping away from me to let a big stinky fart is about as romantic as it gets sometimes!

Think about your needs/wants are and let him know. As someone pointed out, "let's have sex" worked for many years. He needs you to give him new directions now.

Giving mine new directions never really worked. I have finally put a boundary in place where there is NO sex and I won't even sleep in the same bed with him so that he doesn't try anything with me. But, I feel completely justified because I am doing it to protect myself. For years, he couldn't/wouldn't get excited over me. I found a "magic" button but it was not something that I could live with.

[Grey Kitty]

Crumbling, it sounds like you have a bunch of problems related to sex:

1. No romance and no intimacy from him.

2. No foreplay from him.

3. He's got ED.

4. You are pissed, resentful as hell, and shut down because of #1 & #2 for the last decade.

5. He's touchy about the subject.

One thought that would help both #2 and #3 is changing your definition of sex to include things besides intercourse. I'm not clear if that would be a major shift for you or not.

A regular man may not mind getting directions but mine sure as heck didn't like it. One little comment like, "Move a little this way" or "Ouch, not like that." and BAM, we were done because he would get all sulky and pouty and who the heck can maintain any kind of interest when a word or two to get things going in the right direction leads to him shutting down.

I think of myself as a regular man... .I'm kinda sensitive to criticism around sex from my BPDw. If criticism only comes after it is too late to possibly salvage the time in the bedroom, and a full-blown sulking dysregulated rage is forecast, even a 'normal' guy can respond badly to criticism!

So let me offer a suggestion for you ladies if you need to direct your man: Tell him what you LIKE. Let him know when he's doing it RIGHT. Tell him what you WANT him to do. If at all possible, don't tell him he's doing it wrong!

There is a big difference between "I like it on the left", "Move over to the left", and "I don't like it on the right."

(I'm using words here, but tone and other non-verbal cues are important... .and hard to convey here)

[vortex of confusion]

So let me offer a suggestion for you ladies if you need to direct your man: Tell him what you LIKE. Let him know when he's doing it RIGHT. Tell him what you WANT him to do. If at all possible, don't tell him he's doing it wrong!

Hmmm. . .yes, very true! What about those instances where you tell them what you like only to have them do the opposite. It is like, "Oh hey, I like [fill in the blank]." So they do the opposite to which I respond, "Hey, I don't like this other thing." It like telling him I don't like jewelry only to have him get me jewelry and then wonder why the heck I am perplexed or unhappy.

(I'm using words here, but tone and other non-verbal cues are important... .and hard to convey here)

In my case, I think a lot of problems were caused by the non-verbal stuff. His little sighs if I didn't react a certain way. The overall tone was not one that said, "Ooo baby, you are my wife and I want you." It was more like, "Oh hey, where is the blow up doll."

[MissyM]

In my case, I think a lot of problems were caused by the non-verbal stuff. His little sighs if I didn't react a certain way. The overall tone was not one that said, "Ooo baby, you are my wife and I want you." It was more like, "Oh hey, where is the blow up doll."

Yeah, no intimacy is like that.  My dBPDh used to look at me like I was nuts when I would say he wasn't present during sex, now he gets it.  What has motivated him to work on it more was that the few times he was able to do it sex was amazing.  Now this is the only way we have sex and I don't think he would be motivated except he can tell the difference, also.

I think of myself as a regular man... .I'm kinda sensitive to criticism around sex from my BPDw. If criticism only comes after it is too late to possibly salvage the time in the bedroom, and a full-blown sulking dysregulated rage is forecast, even a 'normal' guy can respond badly to criticism!

Never had any issues with a regular guy, actually my dBPDh is the only guy I have had an issue with around sex.  Sexual abuse can affect people that way, male or female.  So not sure if others are dealing with a spouse suffering from that form of abuse, but it is clearly so for my husband.   

[anxiety5]

We were laying in bed this morning.  My BPDh rolls over and cuddles me, and, um, you know, there's this 'thing' between us.  I do nothing.  I lay there like I'm still sleeping.  He doesn't move, just lays there, too.  No stroking, no kissing, nothing.  After what seemed like forever, I got out of bed and started my day.

I've set a boundary for myself, sort of.  I don't really understand it myself, but a wall comes up for me when he 'initiates' sex now.  He doesn't really initiate at all, he just flaunts the idea of sex around to see if I'm game.  Initiating for him is him saying 'let's have sex', or 'I'm horny' or strutting around with his junk hanging out like he's dangling a carrot in front of me.   Like this morning... .

The only time we have ever had sex in this relationship is when I have responded to this empty 'call of the wild'.  I can't do it any more.  My body refuses.  I've given him ten years of being 'okay' with this, even though I haven't really been 'okay' with it at all (he says "it's part of his condition", ED).  I've been accepting of it, but not okay with it.

I told him that because we spent the first ten years of our marriage doing it his way, now it's my turn.  The next ten years, we do it my way.  Where it isn't a cold logically decision one makes, but an actual event of emotion.  Where we both feel draw in by passion.  His response was that that's almost impossible for him.  My response was, "that's okay, I know it's hard, but I've been doing something that has been hard for me for the past ten years, so it's your turn to try.  And I'm prepared to accept that we may not have sex again in the next ten years, if it comes to that."

So back to this morning... .he gets out of bed, does his morning routine, and then says "I'm horny".  Being true to myself, I say okay, I'll leave then so you can take care of things.  Because I"m not having sex with him if it starts from this path anymore.  If he needs a fix, he can fix himself!  He clued in to why I said what I did, got bent out of shape, and the day went downhill from there.  We fought several time through the day, to the point where I told him to just get out of here.  Our fights are tame now, compared to before, but they still hurt. 

Anyway, it's like he doesn't really ever want to have sex with me, it's just totally about him feeling 'puffed up' as a man or something.  I'm pulling my hair out here... .so fed up... .

I guess I really just need to know if I'm being unreasonable or if I'm right to put my foot down and say, enough 'for you', it's time 'for me'?

BTW- His ED condition is such that when he is sleeping things down there work for a little bit, but the minute he becomes fully awake, game over.  I know, this implies it's an emotional issue and not a physical one, but he still attests to it being physical, because of his back condition, because he's been like this for as long as he can remember.  And, no, he won't go to a sex therapist.

My ex went from the most sexually charged person I've ever met, us being together 2-3 times a day, passionately, to nearly a-sexual in a year. Towards the end she never initiated it, would create situations to seduce and then play tired and leave you hanging. She only ever wanted one position, and me doing all the work, she would immediately lose interest as soon as she was satisfied, and told me that foreplay was a waste of time, she'd rather just get to the point of it. As a guy, this sounds like a dream come true (when you're 18) And I wouldn't fault her if she just had a hard time with high levels of passion. But the intensity it was for so long, and the rapid decent to no effort along with some of the things she'd say during such as "you are mine now." Make me realize in retrospect that she used it as a tool to totally hook me. Like a drug, you bombard someone with endless overflowing amounts. Then when you abruptly stop the supply, they are putty in your hands. This is highly abusive the fact it's done with the intent to put oneself in the one up position and gain control. It's a total power play. I would also say she was highly narcissistic with a sprinkle of sadist. She would get turned on by things like verbal scenarios of some future time where I have a family and she calls me and still has power over me and I leave them to come meet her. Cheating turned her on big time. I have no doubt that this type of woman would turn a man into the proverbial cuckold. Every scenario that turned her on had to deal with her in power. If I said she was hot, she would answer "I know" followed by things like how everyone she ever talks to stares at her and wants her. I played along with a lot of this because that type of stuff doesn't bother me whatever. To each his own. But when I started to realize there was a charged pathology behind it, it kind of freaked me out. 

I didn't mind most of it. It was good for the most part until she started doing the control stuff and withholding. Also once she cheated, that turned all those games she played into a sick kind of twisted real life play, and I just realized overall she's "off"

[Notwendy]

Giving directions doesn't work well- verbal or non verbal. Just about anything can be interpreted as a criticism. After years of rejections, criticising me for what I do or don't do, it's just not possible to put my heart into it. He wants the "passion" back and it isn't easy to do that. If you've ever been raged at for asking, or had your H refuse to kiss you for weeks because he thought you were giving him orders-it takes something away.

If I knew then what I know now, I would not have taken what he said to me in those "rages" to heart, but I didn't then, and I believed it. If I sound sad and bitter, I am. It's hard to talk about this and not cry.

Once a while back he told me " his sex life was over" for reasons I don't know. We were having sex- we used to be physical. This is not a marriage where he was deprived, but he had painted me black.  That was probably just a disregulated rage, but saying this to a young wife in love with you doesn't make for a happy physical life.

[Notwendy]

Edgewood has a point about the man being confused after 10 years of having the bar raised so low. I am guilty of that too. However, it was a response to being raged at if I asked for anything more, and also if I said "no". It was easier to just get on with it and go to sleep rather than argue and rage for hours.

Out marriage T has discussed this, the idea of saying yes when you mean yes, and no when you mean no. She tells me I have been a part of this, and I have in the sense that it was easier to disconnect than to get my feelings hurt. I just think that these issues must go hand in hand with the other ones, insecurity, intimacy.

I have been told that sex is a way for men to connect and feel affirmed. This is one reason I choose to continue to have sex, cold or not, just to keep some connection. Since I connect through talking, and that is hardly possible, I'm not willing to let go of a way to connect with him.

[Jessica84]

I probably should've clarified what I meant by "giving directions"... I doubt ANY man wants to be told left-right-over-up-there-not there... unless he's into that.

What I meant was more like what GK described, and much more validating-- mostly NON-verbal cues (moans, body/hip movements, putting his hands where I wanted them) - these clued him in to when he was doing something I liked. So he did more of that. And I would be less responsive (quiet, still, looking or slightly pulling away) when he did something blah or I plain didn't like. He tuned in pretty quickly and learned what I liked and didn't without my having to tell him or criticize him. He licks my ear, nada. He licks my neck, I might moan or arch my back... .so guess which one he did more? Didn't work every time, but he had enough in his playbook to mix it up!

Mine also has ED, is a bit older than me, and was sexually abused as a child (by a male) - so insecure and extremely sensitive to criticism. The non-verbal cues were less threatening and avoid him feeling like a bad lover, criticized or rejected.

PS-- If you are going to TELL him what to do, try whispering it softly in his ear, or say it in a sexy voice... .that works too. 

[vortex of confusion]

What I meant was more like what GK described, and much more validating-- mostly NON-verbal cues (moans, body/hip movements, putting his hands where I wanted them) - these clued him in to when he was doing something I liked. So he did more of that. And I would be less responsive (quiet, still, looking or slightly pulling away) when he did something blah or I plain didn't like. He tuned in pretty quickly and learned what I liked and didn't without my having to tell him or criticize him. He licks my ear, nada. He licks my neck, I might moan or arch my back... .so guess which one he did more? Didn't work every time, but he had enough in his playbook to mix it up!

That only works with somebody that understands non-verbal cues. My husband does NOT seem to understand non-verbal cues. He gets so focused on himself and what he wants that he will miss those non-verbal cues. It is really frustrating to try to communicate with somebody in the heat of passion only to have them ignore it, not hear it, OR get upset IF they do happen to hear or pick up on something.

It is due to pure selfishness mixed with lack of intimacy. After all, a blow up doll is there for his pleasure!

[Grey Kitty]

That only works with somebody that understands non-verbal cues. My husband does NOT seem to understand non-verbal cues. He gets so focused on himself and what he wants that he will miss those non-verbal cues. It is really frustrating to try to communicate with somebody in the heat of passion only to have them ignore it, not hear it, OR get upset IF they do happen to hear or pick up on something.

It is due to pure selfishness mixed with lack of intimacy. After all, a blow up doll is there for his pleasure!

Uhg.

Sorry to sound harsh, but this is my take on your description, VOC.

Bad sex. VERY bad sex.

If he doesn't even care about your pleasure... .buy him a blow-up doll, I guess. 

If you have sex alone, you may feel lonely, but at least you won't feel used and dirty too.

[Jessica84]

I'm so sorry VOC 

I thought most men (even those with ED and BPD) got pleasure out of pleasing a woman but didn't all know how... I guess some can be pretty selfish. Hang in there. Let him play with his doll and go buy yourself a new toy!

[MissyM]

That only works with somebody that understands non-verbal cues. My husband does NOT seem to understand non-verbal cues. He gets so focused on himself and what he wants that he will miss those non-verbal cues.

So sorry VOC, that makes a relationship very lonely.  Yup, another thing our husbands have in common.  The nonverbal clues that I had always been able to use with lovers never worked at all with my dBPDh.  What did work was talking about sex outside of the experience, like pointing out what really was good for me or what was less enjoyable.  I had to be very careful about how and when we had these discussions and really focus on reinforcing what I liked mostly and just a little on what didn't work.  Of course, we were both working on ourselves before we had these discussions.  The majority of our marriage there was little to no sex, something I was very angry about.  And no intimacy makes great sex impossible, that includes the intimacy of expressing my sexual needs and desires.  Now he is more open to hearing what I like during the experience and not take it as a judgment, that has been a huge change.  (He still can't read non-verbal clues, but he has a very hard time reading emotions from me correctly)

[vortex of confusion]

So sorry VOC, that makes a relationship very lonely.  Yup, another thing our husbands have in common.  The nonverbal clues that I had always been able to use with lovers never worked at all with my dBPDh.  What did work was talking about sex outside of the experience, like pointing out what really was good for me or what was less enjoyable.  I had to be very careful about how and when we had these discussions and really focus on reinforcing what I liked mostly and just a little on what didn't work.  Of course, we were both working on ourselves before we had these discussions.  The majority of our marriage there was little to no sex, something I was very angry about.  And no intimacy makes great sex impossible, that includes the intimacy of expressing my sexual needs and desires.  Now he is more open to hearing what I like during the experience and not take it as a judgment, that has been a huge change.  (He still can't read non-verbal clues, but he has a very hard time reading emotions from me correctly)

Ah, I think you just shed light on something else that I wasn't realizing. The discussions about stuff outside the experience tended to be him looking for praise and anything that is not falling all over myself with praise for him is taken personally or as a criticism. I end up feeling really bad because I don't know how to talk about it without hurting his feelings. I know it is a very touchy subject. I don't want to bruise his ego but I also don't want to lie. It has been very difficult territory to navigate. I don't like those kinds of discussions because I feel like I am in a position where I have to praise him for something that isn't really satisfying.

[vortex of confusion]

It is weird, FF.  But I never had a guy treat me like that besides my dBPDh.  I don't think most guys want sex like that.  My first husband also had sexually compulsive issues but he was the kind of BPD that was obsessed with me.  We fought about his constant need for sex but he refused to have sex unless I was fully participating, he thought that was an awful experience.  So I don't get guys that are ok with unconnected sex.  Just not enjoyable at all.  Think sometimes guys that have healthy sexuality assume that all guys have that, which just isn't the case.  Of course, before my current husband I had no idea that someone could be so out of touch with their body.

I have the same experience as you MissyM (yet again). The lack of connection never really occurred to me because I didn't really think it was possible. My husband was only the second or third guy that I was ever with so I didn't have a lot of experience. Something always felt a bit off but I wasn't sure what it was. I dug into my memory banks to think about the first guy I was with and what it was about him. He wasn't great but there was a lot of connection. I was also thinking about a comment that somebody else made about bad sex. Not sure if it was in this thread or the other one on a similar topic. I didn't have a problem with it early on because there was so much other stuff going on outside of the bedroom (flirting, silliness, laughter, etc.) that I didn't really think too much about the bedroom stuff.

And being out of touch with the body! I hadn't really thought of it like that but you are soo right.

[vortex of confusion]

What I'm getting from several of the ladies on here... .is that the sex account has been overdrawn for several years... .and they are about to close the account.

I can't understand why the dudes don't just "pretend"... .and rub some backs... .give some hugs... .whatever.

I get it... .the PD part of the equation throws everything off kilter... .but still... .

You have made me chuckle a couple of times. Yes, the account is very overdrawn. It is really, really frustrating for me to read stuff about trying this or that. I have tried a whole lot of different stuff. Like you, I don't understand how a partner can NOT pretend or put forth a little extra effort. I have been doing it for years and it sounds like a lot of us that have this frustration have been doing the same.

The really, really frustrating part is that there is a bit of a sexist element to all of this. I am not sure where I have gotten this idea but it seems like if a woman is having problems in the bedroom it is because she isn't doing enough or there is something wrong with her. She isn't putting out enough. She isn't dressing right. She isn't adventurous enough. I have heard a lot of different reasons. There is a lot of pressure on women to please their men. I don't hear nearly as much about men pleasing women. It seems almost like a foregone conclusion that if there is a problem then it is because of the woman being too busy. There was an article that was posted not too long ago called "5 Reasons You Should Have Sex With Your Husband Every Night." www.huffingtonpost.com/meg-conley/five-reasons-you-should-h_b_5647291.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

That article made me so darned mad. I actually wrote a big long response to it because it made me livid to have one more person say something that indicated that it was MY fault. Participating in this thread has been so unbelievably helpful for me.

And, not to leave out the guys! Yes, it is sexy when a guy cleans the house but it isn't nearly as sexy as a guy that cleans without expectation. And, it is even sexier when a guy is strong and confident and acts like he really wants to be with you. If my husband stood in front of me with a load of laundry naked, I would likely say, ":)arn, you better get those clothes washed so you can get dressed before you get cold."  

[Crumbling]

I'm with you on that one VoC... .every site I go on looking for info on how to deal with ED in a marriage stresses that it's all about what the WOMEN needs to work on... .I'm sorry, but bug off!  I've done everything possible over the last ten years for HIM.  And from what I'm hearing here, doing so has actually hurt us and not helped.  

Grey Kitty, you're right, I am bitter and hurt.  I've expressed, I've asked, I've been patient, I've pleaded, I've explained, I've gone with the punches.  I'm anger that I'm not being heard.  You acknowledging my feelings made me sigh with relief.  Thank you.

All that being said... .We had a good discussion this morning.  I said I wished there wasn't so much baggage around sex for us and that we could just do it.  That got his attention, and he sat up to listen.  Then I didn't know what else to say.  I"ve said it all before.  So I  repeated that I just need to feel like he is making an effort to get me to where he is, on the passion scale, lets say.  

I gave exact examples of where he has done little things in the past that have helped me feel like he's making an effort.  FF's 'do it for her' attitude helped, especially when he said "why can't the dudes just pretend," (That's a million dollar question if ever I heard one!) Anyway, I used that and said, what do you do for me, that I like that you don't necessarily like?  He couldn't name one.  He knows what I like, I've been drilling it in for years.   

He wont use any lotion or oil to give me a body rub, he doesn't like the feel of it on his hands.  A dry rub just isn't quite the same thing.

He wont join me in the tub, tub water is dirty.

He wont touch my breasts, because there's clothes in the way.  Even tho 85% of the time, I'm not wearing a bra.

He wont just give me a random hug, because I might not be up for it.  (I'm always up for it, but I think the adults in his life as a kid may have rejected his affections a lot.  He was brought up by a single mom and she was a addict and manic depressive.  She also drank herself to death.)

He doesn't like to just lay in bed together and read or cuddle or something, it hurts his back.

I'm telling you, everything I suggest, he has an excuse not to do.  And once it was in his face as a fact, he simply nodded and said, ':)uely noted' and left to blow snow.  I guess we'll have to wait for the 'rest of the story' on that one... .dundundun... .

I also thought about the suggestion of redefining sex... .it's not actually the sex I have the most trouble with, it's the foreplay, or the lack there of, maybe.

Maybe part of it is normal boredom because we have had such little diversity from the norm.  I have way more sexual experiences than he does, and I think that intimidates him a little.  We don't talk about our past sex lives.  The idea is that that was then, this is now, and we are starting over with each other from scrap.  I'm really questioning this logic now, ten years into it.  I think talking about it would make it less intimidating, but he refuses.  :)oesn't want to be compared?  I just don't know.

I'm beginning to realize that there may also be a lot of the Mars vs Venus issue going on, too.  He has no clue with women, never has.  He often says we are a strange creation, us women.   I doubt he has ever fought for a woman's attention, either.  He got mine quite easily, I must admit.  I see where forcing him into doing that now would be uncomfortable for him... .but so what.  I've been 'uncomfortable' long enough.  

I wish I could tell him to grow up and grow some balls... .be brave and try for once to do something for someone else.  Any suggestions as to how I can phrase that using SET?

   Once again, I'm comforted, and yet saddened, by how many of us have the same issues.  Thanks to all for your input.  What a great bunch!

[Crumbling]

What is foreplay?  If sex becomes more broadly defined, then at what point does it go from foreplay to sex? 

The reality of our situation is that he has to just get the magic thought, whatever it is, and he is primed, ready to go then can't figure out why I'm not.  Like him wanting it should be enough to turn me on.  If I lived my whole life that way, I would have had sex with hundreds of men by now - Dr Ruth look out!  (Oh, my if that comment doesn't age me nothing will.  )

A couple was being interviewed in their own home last night on the news.  He was sitting back, one arm across the back of the sofa, and she was snuggled in next to him, in that little safe spot, legs touching, her hand on his thigh.  I caught myself longing for that simple ease a couple can have with each other, just sitting together.  Even that doesn't happen in our house.  Like someone else said, I'm not sure I even remember what normal is, anymore.

Any slight hint that there may be a challenge involved in getting us there and he shuts down.  I'm tired of it.  If he's not willing to make the effort, I'm not willing to participate.  No one has said I'm wrong thinking this way, but I have heard some reference to how it may make him feel.  I do take his feelings/issues into consideration as much as possible.

I am holding no stock in things being different when he comes home this afternoon.  We've had conversations that have ended that way before, and still nothing changes.  I was being dramatic with the whole 'rest of the story' bit... .and maybe a bit overly hopeful.

I know for sure now, he certainly has big intimacy issues.  To think they will always be there, makes me want to run away and join the circus!  I must find a way to address these issues, I just have to.

[Grey Kitty]

What is foreplay? What happens if you broadly define sex? TRY IT!

Here's a suggestion... .yes, something that Dan Savage has advised... .I keep going back to him on sex issues, 'cuz he is willing and able to talk bluntly and intelligently about them... .if you can get your H to read/listen/follow him, he might get a ___ing clue or two to rub together!

Try setting a period of time... .when there would normally be fair bit of sex, like a month... .and take intercourse OFF THE MENU.

You and he can do anything you want with each other, except that.

This kind of program would help both with ED issues and with the "woman isn't getting anything that works for her" issues.

crumbling, would your H be willing to try something like this?

[vortex of confusion]

I'm with you on that one VoC... .every site I go on looking for info on how to deal with ED in a marriage stresses that it's all about what the WOMEN needs to work on... .I'm sorry, but bug off!  I've done everything possible over the last ten years for HIM.  And from what I'm hearing here, doing so has actually hurt us and not helped.  

LOL. I had to laugh at this or I might cry. I know exactly how you feel.

All that being said... .We had a good discussion this morning.  I said I wished there wasn't so much baggage around sex for us and that we could just do it.  That got his attention, and he sat up to listen.  Then I didn't know what else to say.  I"ve said it all before.  So I  repeated that I just need to feel like he is making an effort to get me to where he is, on the passion scale, lets say.  

I have been thinking a lot about this because my husband and I have lots of baggage too. I was trying to think back to the early parts of our relationship when I was pretty content with "bad sex". The reason that I was content with it back then was because of all of the things that my husband used to do outside of the bedroom. When my kids were little and when I was pregnant, he was great. He let me sit in my recliner and nurse my babies and would bring me drinks and snacks. He would help me by walking the floor with them and singing to them. He would do so much to give me the space to be the kind of mom that I wanted to be. Because of that, all he had to do was show up in the bedroom and I made sure he was taken care of as often as he wanted or needed. All of my passion and desire starts outside of the bedroom. When he stopped doing those sweet things outside of the bedroom, I stopped being satisfied in the bedroom because it felt like he was getting ALL of the benefits and I was getting nothing.

[vortex of confusion]

This kind of program would help both with ED issues and with the "woman isn't getting anything that works for her" issues.

I had a sex talk with my husband last night and he admitted that a lot of his ED is due to performance anxiety. He gets thing so worked up in his head that he can't perform if he thinks that he might actually get some.

We were also talking about how thing were early in our relationship. We used to practice NFP, which involved me waking up every morning to take my temps and track my fertility. It was his job to wake me up and take my temp. We were reminiscing about how we would abstain during phase 2 (the fertile times) and then when it came time for phase 3 (infertile time), we couldn't keep our hands off of each other. It built up a lot of anticipation and set the stage for both of us to be "ready".

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

He wont use any lotion or oil to give me a body rub, he doesn't like the feel of it on his hands.  A dry rub just isn't quite the same thing.

Crumbling,

Wow... .what a list. 

So... zero experience with this... .dealing with "difficult guys"... .but I'm a guy... .and over the years I've done stuff I really didn't want to do... .but got talked into it (or whatever)... .with sex or sex favors.  And... .I'm fine with it... .good trade.  I was smiling.

Here is the idea.  Go find the lotion or oil that you want.  Try to figure out a couple of days that will be good for your hubby... .if there are "better" days... .and really try to make those days better.

Make him good meals... .extra validation... .whatever.  Maybe just tell him you want to spend some time with him... .who knows.  Goal is to make sure he has an hour with his schedule clear...   Take phone off hook.

Lead him to bedroom... .hand him lotion.  Tell him you need 30 minutes of a good oiled up backrub... .acknowledge that he doesn't like the feeling... .but assure him that you will help him get over that after the backrub.

Maybe give him a playful swat on the rear as you say it.

Now... if he really bucks up after this and says... .no... .

Wow... .I just can't imagine that anyone... .PD or not... .can have an issue with "oily" hands for a few minutes.

Do you see the idea I'm getting at... ?  Any thoughts?

[ColdEthyl]

He wont use any lotion or oil to give me a body rub, he doesn't like the feel of it on his hands.  A dry rub just isn't quite the same thing.

Crumbling,

Wow... .what a list. 

So... zero experience with this... .dealing with "difficult guys"... .but I'm a guy... .and over the years I've done stuff I really didn't want to do... .but got talked into it (or whatever)... .with sex or sex favors.  And... .I'm fine with it... .good trade.  I was smiling.

Here is the idea.  Go find the lotion or oil that you want.  Try to figure out a couple of days that will be good for your hubby... .if there are "better" days... .and really try to make those days better.

Make him good meals... .extra validation... .whatever.  Maybe just tell him you want to spend some time with him... .who knows.  Goal is to make sure he has an hour with his schedule clear...   Take phone off hook.

Lead him to bedroom... .hand him lotion.  Tell him you need 30 minutes of a good oiled up backrub... .acknowledge that he doesn't like the feeling... .but assure him that you will help him get over that after the backrub.

Maybe give him a playful swat on the rear as you say it.

Now... if he really bucks up after this and says... .no... .

Wow... .I just can't imagine that anyone... .PD or not... .can have an issue with "oily" hands for a few minutes.

Do you see the idea I'm getting at... ?  Any thoughts?

I can see it happening. Since my husband is similar with his pickiness... .there were times I was bold and tried to initiate sex and he would stare at me blankly and give me whatever excuse he had at the time.

For a "non", I'm sure this sounds ridiculous to you. But the more I've read the ladies' accounts... .it seems like most of them have some weird issues with their BPD males.

[formflier]

For a "non", I'm sure this sounds ridiculous to you. But the more I've read the ladies' accounts... .it seems like most of them have some weird issues with their BPD males.

Yep... .and my "prescription"... .is to not let the issue drop.

Maybe... .it could be better to just get the rub... with no sex at end.  That might be less scary. 

Plus... I definitely sense that there are frustrated people here... .and they need to "win one... "

So... .pick something like this... .and "win it".  Stick with it as long as it takes... .

[vortex of confusion]

Yep... .and my "prescription"... .is to not let the issue drop.

Maybe... .it could be better to just get the rub... with no sex at end.  That might be less scary. 

Plus... I definitely sense that there are frustrated people here... .and they need to "win one... "

So... .pick something like this... .and "win it".  Stick with it as long as it takes... .

I think it is good in theory. However, I know that I have tried lots of different things. I persisted and stuck with it. It didn't work. I am not trying to be contrary but when I read stuff like this I feel like it is putting the pressure back on me. It puts me back into a position of it being MY fault because I wasn't persistent enough or creative enough or something. A person can only handle so much rejection before getting tired and frustrated and burned out.

[Crumbling]

We were reminiscing about how we would abstain during phase 2 (the fertile times) and then when it came time for phase 3 (infertile time), we couldn't keep our hands off of each other. It built up a lot of anticipation and set the stage for both of us to be "ready".

There may be a hint here, VoC on how to pursue the issue for the two of you... .I'd try getting creative in building up anticipation in some way, see if it still works.  Anticipation makes my BPDh nervous.  It's likely a performance issue.

I've removed an item off the menu a few months ago, something he obsesses over.  It's the only way I could get him to even consider anything else.  I'm sticking to my guns, but it's hard.  

He's very persistent, and gets so bent out of shape when I stand my ground.  I don't care anymore.  I do good at not making it worse.  I give him affection and kindness, but I'm not changing my stance, no matter how much he doesn't like it.  

I'm afraid the sad reality is that we, the 'non' women, need emotional validation to feel sexually aroused, and our SO's can't give us emotional validation.  That's why we've given up, given in, and put up with it... .what else can you do?

:'(

[Crumbling]

Ever open a kettle of fish only to discover you don't really want fish... .

it's not the sex I want, it's the affection... .

[vortex of confusion]

We were reminiscing about how we would abstain during phase 2 (the fertile times) and then when it came time for phase 3 (infertile time), we couldn't keep our hands off of each other. It built up a lot of anticipation and set the stage for both of us to be "ready".

There may be a hint here, VoC on how to pursue the issue for the two of you... .I'd try getting creative in building up anticipation in some way, see if it still works.  Anticipation makes my BPDh nervous.  It's likely a performance issue.

The anticipation stuff has had mixed results. Sometimes it works and sometimes it blows up in my face. I do know that my husband said something like he doesn't think it is a biology problem as much as it is a thinking problem. After we were intimate the last time, he said that he almost lost it because he was thinking too much about the "what ifs". He has said that he does better when he lets himself get lost in the moment and focuses on me and how things feel. The problem is that the results are very mixed and there is a lack of consistency. That is difficult to work with!

I'm afraid the sad reality is that we, the 'non' women, need emotional validation to feel sexually aroused, and our SO's can't give us emotional validation.  That's why we've given up, given in, and put up with it... .what else can you do?

:'(

That is the bottom line. I want to feel like I am valued and validated by my partner. Without that piece of the puzzle, everything in the bedroom feels empty and unsatisfying with or without an O. Having an O is great but it isn't the be all, end all gold standard for me. I have been content with lots of bad sex with my partner because there was other stuff going on that was a whole lot more important to me than whether or not my partner is a god or bad lover.

[MissyM]

I see in this thread the same issue we used to have involving therapists that didn't get that the issue was an intimacy and attachment disorder.   They kept trying to get me to "fix" my husband's sexual problem with advice that had no impact on the underlying issue.  Until the underlying issue began being addressed, nothing changed.  I happen to be quite good at sex and had a well defined image around it, therefore I refused to take on an issue that wasn't mine.  These issues cannot be cured by the wife doing more this or that.  I get what VOC is saying, that is a maddening approach and very invalidating.  Since my dBPDh and I have been able to work trough this exact issue, I feel very comfortable with saying that trying to address this issue with sexual advice does not work.  It is like trying to solve an eating disorder by concentrating on the food, trying different foods, cooking it differently, eating at different times, etc. 

[Cat Familiar]

That only works with somebody that understands non-verbal cues. My husband does NOT seem to understand non-verbal cues. He gets so focused on himself and what he wants that he will miss those non-verbal cues. It is really frustrating to try to communicate with somebody in the heat of passion only to have them ignore it, not hear it, OR get upset IF they do happen to hear or pick up on something.

It is due to pure selfishness mixed with lack of intimacy. After all, a blow up doll is there for his pleasure!

Vortex, when I read this, I wondered if your husband has Aspergers. Also wanting to be praised for everything--makes me wonder.

[formflier]

  I feel very comfortable with saying that trying to address this issue with sexual advice does not work.  

I agree... .that any expectation to "solve" the issue... .is not realistic.

However... I think TLCs in behavior is possible.  And when those changes happen... I think that they should be praised.

So... .if there has been a long term refusal to do a backrub... and now that starts happening... .it's a TLC... .it's a move in the right direction.

If that continues to make them uncomfortable... .they should address it with there therapist or mental health team... .it should not be addressed by withholding a backrub from someone that wants it.

Struggling with how to explain that is does sort of need to be "put on" the women (in this instance) to keep the pressure on.

If you want a backrub... .let them know... .don't drop the issue.  You job is not to force them to do it... .but I think your job is to keep the pressure on... .shine the light on the issue... .

Once the light is shined... .something will happen.  Hopefully with the rest of the tools that have been learned on here... .the "nons" can help guide things in a healthy... .productive way.

Thoughts?

[vortex of confusion]

Struggling with how to explain that is does sort of need to be "put on" the women (in this instance) to keep the pressure on.

If you want a backrub... .let them know... .don't drop the issue.  You job is not to force them to do it... .but I think your job is to keep the pressure on... .shine the light on the issue... .

Once the light is shined... .something will happen.  Hopefully with the rest of the tools that have been learned on here... .the "nons" can help guide things in a healthy... .productive way.

Thoughts?

Here is my problem with what I think you are saying. Yes I can push the issue of a backrub or a kiss or things like that. Sure, I can get my husband to go along with something. I can give him all sorts of instructions and push the things that are important to me. That STILL does not equal intimacy. That STILL does not get my motor running in the right direction. Maybe it is a difference between men and women. I am not sure. I know the difference in how it feels when my husband rubs my feet because he wants to and when he rubs them because I have asked him to do it. When he isn't into it or is doing it to please me, he isn't nearly as gentle and there is a certain quality to it that is a HUGE turn off. I don't know if the other women in this thread have that experience or not. I do know that I can guide my husband all day long but that isn't going to equal intimacy and it isn't going to get me what I want. My husband will screw things up (on accident of course) in such a way that I stop asking him.

[Cat Familiar]

Here is my problem with what I think you are saying. Yes I can push the issue of a backrub or a kiss or things like that. Sure, I can get my husband to go along with something. I can give him all sorts of instructions and push the things that are important to me. That STILL does not equal intimacy. That STILL does not get my motor running in the right direction. Maybe it is a difference between men and women. I am not sure. I know the difference in how it feels when my husband rubs my feet because he wants to and when he rubs them because I have asked him to do it. When he isn't into it or is doing it to please me, he isn't nearly as gentle and there is a certain quality to it that is a HUGE turn off. I don't know if the other women in this thread have that experience or not. I do know that I can guide my husband all day long but that isn't going to equal intimacy and it isn't going to get me what I want. My husband will screw things up (on accident of course) in such a way that I stop asking him.

Yes, when they give you a massage because they want to, it's sensual. When they do it because you ask, it's like waxing the car.

[Notwendy]

About 7 years into our marriage, my H went all cold on me. He even refused to kiss me. When I asked for affection, he told me I was making him work too hard, and that there wasn't anything wrong with him wanting "quicky" sex. The kids were little, I was depressed and worn down from the rages. Basically, we had cold, emotionless sex for years. He didn't seem to mind. I could have been a blow up doll and it wouldn't be much different.

Now that he's showing more interest in the marriage, he says I am not affectionate enough, but it is hard for me to enjoy with him what he refused to give me for so long. For a long time, if did kiss me, I would cry because it brought back the pain of when he refused to.  Not knowing about BPD, I asked so many times why he did what he did, and he either won't say or doesn't know, or makes up some reason that it was my fault.

I have a hard time believing he is truly interested in something like foreplay. I think he really just wants to get to it. He will give backrubs, which is nice. I know I have a lot of anger and resentment to get over.

He's been my one and only for 30 years. I don't remember much else. Like Vortex said, sometimes I try to think back to when it wasn't this way, but it is hard to remember what that was like.

Some people mentioned SA, and I am as certain as anyone can be that there isn't someone else, at least not for years. I had suspicions about someone years ago, but no real proof. I am sure he's not doing a lot of things that people with SA do, however, there is the ED, and he also had a shaming background. I know there was some porn interest before we got married, not really sure how much that is at play now, but if it was, it isn't something that I noticed.

Why a guy would want to be the way he was with me, a loving and caring wife at the time ( although painted black), I have no idea.

[MissyM]

Some people mentioned SA, and I am as certain as anyone can be that there isn't someone else, at least not for years. I had suspicions about someone years ago, but no real proof. I am sure he's not doing a lot of things that people with SA do, however, there is the ED, and he also had a shaming background. I know there was some porn interest before we got married, not really sure how much that is at play now, but if it was, it isn't something that I noticed.

Actually my dBPDh's primary diagnosis is intimacy and sexual anorexia, he then flipped into SA after a brief stint of drug addiction.  There is a great book called Married and Alone, that really resonated with me.  That is how it was for 11 years of our marriage and before he ever acted out in any way.  His isn't the normal story for SA, that starts with porn and acting out young.  That is partially how they made the BPD diagnosis, the switching around of addictions.  However, the intimacy anorexia was always there (which I am now being told was caused by an attachment disorder).  He always had ED issues.  Now he knows that when he is emotionally present and connected, he doesn't have much issue with ED.  It can still happen if he is stressed out, which keeps him from being fully present.  I wish I had known what intimacy and sexual anorexia were before all of the other addictions were added in, maybe we could have avoided some of the crap that happened over the last few years.

[vortex of confusion]

Yes, when they give you a massage because they want to, it's sensual. When they do it because you ask, it's like waxing the car.

If is like waxing the car and you don't get excited, then they feel hurt and rejected. And suddenly, I become impossible to please, too demanding, etc. It sets off a chain of events/conversations that are even more uncomfortable than going without.

[formflier]

Yes, when they give you a massage because they want to, it's sensual. When they do it because you ask, it's like waxing the car.

If is like waxing the car and you don't get excited, then they feel hurt and rejected. And suddenly, I become impossible to please, too demanding, etc. It sets off a chain of events/conversations that are even more uncomfortable than going without.

That is when you kick in the tools that you have learned on BPD family... .

Then... .the next day... ."get your car waxed again... ."

At some point... .they hopefully will realize that you guys are serious... .and that their discomfort (I guess that is best way to say it)... .is not going to be solved by avoiding the "car wax".

After several waxes... .you will both most likely be a little bit more relaxed... .it's not weird anymore... .and then the conversation may turn... .and then... .it might be an intimate backrub... .instead of a car wax.

[formflier]

 

So... .for harboring anger from the past.

What can they do now... .to help that issue?

My suggestion is that this is a place where forgiveness can come into play.

Forgiveness can be hard to do... .but absolutely essential if there is to be a better future.

[vortex of confusion]

That is when you kick in the tools that you have learned on BPD family... .

Then... .the next day... ."get your car waxed again... ."

At some point... .they hopefully will realize that you guys are serious... .and that their discomfort (I guess that is best way to say it)... .is not going to be solved by avoiding the "car wax".

After several waxes... .you will both most likely be a little bit more relaxed... .it's not weird anymore... .and then the conversation may turn... .and then... .it might be an intimate backrub... .instead of a car wax.

I know what you are getting at FF. I really do understand what you are saying.

I know that the argument can be made that I didn't have the tools from this site in the past. That is a valid point.

With or without the tools of this site, without some kind of change in the other person, it is likely that the waxing becomes the norm without any kind of real intimacy. I think that is the point that MissyM was trying to make. Unless the underlying intimacy issues are addressed, it is still going to be a car wax. Both parties may be comfortable with it and it may not be weird but it is still JUST a car wax.

[Grey Kitty]

I know the difference in how it feels when my husband rubs my feet because he wants to and when he rubs them because I have asked him to do it. When he isn't into it or is doing it to please me, he isn't nearly as gentle and there is a certain quality to it that is a HUGE turn off. I don't know if the other women in this thread have that experience or not. I do know that I can guide my husband all day long but that isn't going to equal intimacy and it isn't going to get me what I want. My husband will screw things up (on accident of course) in such a way that I stop asking him.

Yes, when they give you a massage because they want to, it's sensual. When they do it because you ask, it's like waxing the car.

OK... .you ladies are both non's, so this may not apply to you... .however please think about it and whether there is a little bit of this going on.

When my wife was in her abusive BPD period, she felt that if I gave her something after she asked, it didn't count. As soon as she asked for what she wanted, she pretty much jumped straight to berating me for not giving it to her unasked, and generally rejected it if I did offer it.

So make sure you are giving him the benefit of the doubt and a chance to do right.

He may WANT to give you something and may engage with you and genuinely give you that is sensual when you ask for it and are receptive to it.

... .and that is very different than him going through the motions and "waxing the car".

One other challenge: If you ASK him for something, are you making it safe for him to say either yes or no? If he doesn't feel able to say no, that may not be your fault... .or you may have contributed.

[MissyM]

He may WANT to give you something and may engage with you and genuinely give you that is sensual when you ask for it and are receptive to it.

... .and that is very different than him going through the motions and "waxing the car".

I think that is a HUGE assumption.  My husband wouldn't have known that what he was doing was so off because he had no frame of reference, yet I did.  Sensual was a foreign concept to him.  He thought of it as almost a mechanical action.   Thankfully with all of the work he has done, that is no longer true but I really feel for the ladies that are still dealing with this.  I think unless you have experienced this, you just have no idea how hurtful this is.

[Cat Familiar]

Of course it's always nicer when it's offered, but I wouldn't turn down a car wax.

I think the difference is that they'll get stuck on doing something really rote-ly--like making circles over and over on one shoulder. You can tell they're spacing out and not really feeling it. It's like we've turned into a worry stone.

[vortex of confusion]

MissyM said:

I think that is a HUGE assumption.  My husband wouldn't have known that what he was doing was so off because he had no frame of reference, yet I did.  Sensual was a foreign concept to him.  He thought of it as almost a mechanical action.   Thankfully with all of the work he has done, that is no longer true but I really feel for the ladies that are still dealing with this.  I think unless you have experienced this, you just have no idea how hurtful this is.

Thank you for this! It is very, very, very validating for me. I was really beginning to think that I was losing my mind. I hate to admit it but I didn't realize some of this until I went outside the marriage. How could this guy that I barely knew do these things yet my own husband couldn't?

I think this is one of the first times that I have been validated on this. Whenever I have tried to bring it up with others, it has felt like it was my fault because of my attitude, I wasn't trying hard enough, or something else. GK and FF have some great points and things to think about but at the same time it is hurtful because it is like picking at a scab.

Cat Familiar said:

I think the difference is that they'll get stuck on doing something really rote-ly--like making circles over and over on one shoulder. You can tell they're spacing out and not really feeling it. It's like we've turned into a worry stone.

I seem to recall telling somebody one time that being with my husband was kind of like doing the dishes. I know that I have also said that I get about the same connection out of my toy as I do with my husband. I know those are really harsh things to say and I have felt really bad about saying them and feeling them. What you and MissyM and other have said, has really shown a light on WHY I was feeling that way. It wasn't my imagination and it wasn't me being demanding or dysfunctional. What I was feeling (or not feeling) was very real and there is an actual reason and explanation behind it.

[MissyM]

It wasn't my imagination and it wasn't me being demanding or dysfunctional. What I was feeling (or not feeling) was very real and there is an actual reason and explanation behind it.

It is very normal for the spouse to be blamed and gaslighted on this issue.  Most people cannot understand, to them it seems so simple because they have never been with someone that is this disconnected.  Most of the advice given would work for other people.  My relationship before my husband, my boyfriend had some ED in the beginning because he was uncomfortable.  Once we were closer and he felt comfortable being himself sexually, then the ED disappeared.  I assumed the same would happen for my husband, if he could just get comfortable and if I was nice and accepting, then it would go away.  Big no on that!  There was nothing I could do, and I tried everything, that would make it better for him.  He had to face his issues himself before he could deal with sexual intimacy.

[vortex of confusion]

It is very normal for the spouse to be blamed and gaslighted on this issue.  Most people cannot understand, to them it seems so simple because they have never been with someone that is this disconnected.  Most of the advice given would work for other people.  My relationship before my husband, my boyfriend had some ED in the beginning because he was uncomfortable.  Once we were closer and he felt comfortable being himself sexually, then the ED disappeared.  I assumed the same would happen for my husband, if he could just get comfortable and if I was nice and accepting, then it would go away.  Big no on that!  There was nothing I could do, and I tried everything, that would make it better for him.  He had to face his issues himself before he could deal with sexual intimacy.

Before we were married, there were never any problems. I asked him one time how he was able to do things before we got married. One time, he told me that if he knew we were going to go out, he wouldn't look at porn or take care of himself for several days before we got together.

After we got married and moved into an apartment together, he went right back to his normal routines which were getting up, having his coffee and porn, and taking care of himself. He said that it never occurred to him that he would need to change his routines or that I might want to do stuff in the morning. That was 16 years ago but it was a source of a lot of tension between us. I couldn't comprehend WHY a guy wouldn't wake up his new bride for a morning romp. Now, I have a better understanding. It was easier and less work to resort to what he knew and what he was comfortable with, which was himself. I had never been married before and was in my early twenties. I had no idea who to turn to because I was afraid that I would be accused of being a cold fish or that something was wrong with me. After all, what normal guy does that unless there is something wrong with HER? I believed that for a really long time.

[MissyM]

Now, I have a better understanding. It was easier and less work to resort to what he knew and what he was comfortable with, which was himself.

Read the link I posted on the other thread, it talks about this issue exactly.

[vortex of confusion]

Read the link I posted on the other thread, it talks about this issue exactly.

Thanks! I did read it. I have been on the POSARC email list for quite a while.

I wish I had read this 15 years ago:

He can engage sexually with others and/or porn because there is little at risk emotionally

I have asked the question: How can he do this? for years but have just now come to understand what has really been going on. It has been complete torture for me. 

[Crumbling]

After what I thought was a healthy discussion this morning, BPDh pretty much avoided me all day.  :)id outside chores, went up to visit the neighbor, went to the store and bought liquor.  I didn't get upset, or anything, just went through the motions as if everything was normal.  

When he couldn't talk on the phone any longer, and it was too late to visit anyone, he asked me what I wanted to do.  I said, I want to go upstairs, cuddle on the bed and maybe get a nice back rub, with lotion.

He said, lets play cards.  I said, I'd rather have a back rub.  He said lets watch a movie.  I said, I'm going upstairs to lay on the bed.  He said, your crazy, you're losing it.  I said because I want a back rub, you think I'm crazy?  I think you're that guy in the Bible that gives his kid a serpent when he asked for a turtle! (That's not really the actual Bible quote, but he knew what I meant).

I pretty much laid in bed all evening, eventually crying myself to sleep.  So much for sticking to your guns.  It must be the extinction burst happening.  He's so non-receptive to anything I suggest.  I'm too tired and frustrated to care anymore.

[Grey Kitty]

He said, lets play cards.  I said, I'd rather have a back rub.  He said lets watch a movie.  I said, I'm going upstairs to lay on the bed.  He said, your crazy, you're losing it.  I said because I want a back rub, you think I'm crazy?  I think you're that guy in the Bible that gives his kid a serpent when he asked for a turtle! (That's not really the actual Bible quote, but he knew what I meant).

I pretty much laid in bed all evening, eventually crying myself to sleep.  So much for sticking to your guns.  It must be the extinction burst happening.  He's so non-receptive to anything I suggest.  I'm too tired and frustrated to care anymore.

 That sounds so tough. So much rejection.

Sticking to your truth and being open enough about what you wanted is good powerful (and hard!) work.

I'm impressed that you did stick to asking for what you want, even though you had very good reason to fear he would do exactly what he did... .let you down and reject you.

There is incredible strength in that kind of vulnerability. 

[vortex of confusion]

I pretty much laid in bed all evening, eventually crying myself to sleep.  So much for sticking to your guns.  It must be the extinction burst happening.  He's so non-receptive to anything I suggest.  I'm too tired and frustrated to care anymore.

     

I have been there. I have cried myself to sleep so many times over the years. Laying in bed feeling lonely and wondering what the hell is wrong with you that your own spouse doesn't want you. That is one of the worst feelings in the world.

[Grey Kitty]

Cat Familiar said:

I think the difference is that they'll get stuck on doing something really rote-ly--like making circles over and over on one shoulder. You can tell they're spacing out and not really feeling it. It's like we've turned into a worry stone.

I seem to recall telling somebody one time that being with my husband was kind of like doing the dishes. I know that I have also said that I get about the same connection out of my toy as I do with my husband. I know those are really harsh things to say and I have felt really bad about saying them and feeling them. What you and MissyM and other have said, has really shown a light on WHY I was feeling that way. It wasn't my imagination and it wasn't me being demanding or dysfunctional. What I was feeling (or not feeling) was very real and there is an actual reason and explanation behind it.

I want to speak to this (as gently as I can).

You put up with him treating you like a blow-up doll for a long time, at first not even realizing it, and the resentment built up to explosive levels. Before you even really understood what about it was bothering you and why it was so hurtful.

You describe sex with your husband where you aren't willing (or even able?) to engage with him in any level of intimacy. What you are doing with him is pretty much the same.

Your reasons are different. Your path to that place is different. But that is where you are now. Sex with him has no intimacy at all.

You want to have sex with a guy where you get something that a toy can't give you -- a real connection.

Your H might be so obtuse or so wrapped up in his brand of crazy regarding sex that he doesn't even imagine this is possible. Or maybe he's almost forgotten. Or maybe because he has so much difficulty with intimacy (BPD, remember?) he is already too close to you/enmeshed with you to be able to be able to cope with it with you.

Honestly, I couldn't say whether he wants sex with things (intimacy) a blow-up doll couldn't give him or not.

Evidence from your posts is that as of TODAY, he doesn't have that capacity with you.

I'm still trying to be gentle, while asking you a really tough question:

Is playing the part of living blow-up doll for him doing something in accordance with your values? Or is it against your values? Does it leave you feeling soiled, or that you did something to improve your marriage and you feel good about that? (No debate that the sex wasn't satisfying for you.)

[vortex of confusion]

Is playing the part of living blow-up doll for him doing something in accordance with your values? Or is it against your values? Does it leave you feeling soiled, or that you did something to improve your marriage and you feel good about that? (No debate that the sex wasn't satisfying for you.)

I can't really give a black and white answer to this.

Taking one for the team (being a blow up doll) every once in a while is well within my values. It began to violate my values when it became clear that it was a pervasive pattern rather than a situation where I was taking one for the team. Initially, I was doing it to try to find ways to improve my marriage. Again, it didn't really start violating my values until it became obvious that it was doing more harm than good. I did if for so long because I had the mindset that Formflier suggested in the other thread of the same topic. I thought that if I did it enough times, perhaps something would start working. Perhaps I would get comfortable with it. Perhaps my husband would get more comfortable and relax into things and that would make things all better. I have had 16.5 years worth of trying and taking one for the team. I don't remember when it changed from me seeing it as trying to connect and improve the marriage to me feeling dirty. I think I have waffled on that over time. I can look back and see the gradual change where it went from I was cool with it most of the time to feeling dirty most of the time. As I became more aware of what was going on, I started being less and less comfortable with it.

Continuing to take one for the team or hoping that being persistent will change the dynamic or improve things is unrealistic in my experience. I had to acknowledge that no amount of trying on my part will change things. No amount of me being creative or persistent or anything else is going to help. It is going to take setting some boundaries and figuring out what kind of sex I am willing to participate in at any given time. Unless my husband does something on his side of things to address his underlying issues, I don't think I can hope for any kind of change with regards to sex.

[Notwendy]

Yes, I remember crying myself to sleep a lot. Also crying a lot. Eventually, I couldn't stop crying, cried all the time. Then I went to get help.

Years later, something made him decide to "come back" into the marriage.  Then he was super romantic for a while. I fell for it. I was over the moon. I thought we had our happy marriage back. But the rages returned and that was the last time I could really "fall" deeply in love after that. I was always wary to some extent, even though I am less defensive over time as I am less co-dependent on his opinion of me.

What are my values? I'm an old fashioned romantic wanting sex, love, intimacy all with one guy and nobody else. I think the 10 commandments are good rules to live by and so fidelity is one of my values. However, I think there are a lot of people who are not in a situation where sex,love, intimacy are there for them- single people, married people who may have spouses with conditions where sex is limited. For me, my number one value is intimacy and authenticity, and while I feel strongly that some things are limited to marriage, I can have intimacy with good friends, family members ( functional ones). I can experience love with other people, albeit not what I think marital love is.

I read some sources of emotional anorexia, and if it is my husband's choice to do this, and I have been starving for years, I realize I don't have to starve. I can have friends, although I know that some boundaries must be respected with males.

My H loves being the recepient of all my openness, love and connection, but he doesn't like to return it. He wants me to think of him like I did when we were first married, when I didn't know how it felt for him to paint me black all of a sudden.  One can't become innocent again, once innocence is lost and someone has abused the trust you had in them. One thing my H is very jealous of are the few male friends I have from childhood,- that I grew up with and think of as brothers- even though there is nothing physical between me and them and I am friends with their wives. Although I have only seen them a few times, he notices that when I am with them, I am not guarded, not WOE. There's a trust that was formed in chilhood, that "innocence lost" with my H has not been lost with them.

[Notwendy]

What made the "black " years so unbearable was not understanding why, any husband in his right mind, would treat a loving caring wife the way he treated me. Now, I know that I am not perfect, and people make mistakes, and also have disagreements, however, I do know that I had the kind of love for him that I think most people would appreciate, and it is also the kind of love I wished I had received. For years, I would have done anything to make things better, and so I accepted his reasons ( blaming me for everything) and did all I thought I could to be what he thought he wanted me to be.

The faulty thinking in this, of course, is the assumption of "right mind", taking all the blame, and thinking I could fix it. Now that I am aware that this wasn't true, I can reframe things. While it may look like I am revisiting old resentments, by doing so, I am reframing them. I understand that there's a reason he painted me black for those years, why JADE never worked and more so, being co-dependent and trying to fix him was not productive or good for me.

I have hope because, in a similar way, I was able to see my mother differently when I had the understanding of BPD, because the pattern with me was similar. I could not reconcile how a mother who loved her child could have been the way she was with me. Understanding her helped me resolve the bitterness I had with her. However, it also won't get me my childhood back, and I am the person I am today because of her, some for better, some for worse, but I have learned from it all.

I chose my H and I realize that marriage is sometimes hard work too. However, I also know that a relationship with a person with BPD has its limits. I take it one day at a time. I have hope, but not false hope.

[ColdEthyl]

After what I thought was a healthy discussion this morning, BPDh pretty much avoided me all day.  :)id outside chores, went up to visit the neighbor, went to the store and bought liquor.  I didn't get upset, or anything, just went through the motions as if everything was normal.  

When he couldn't talk on the phone any longer, and it was too late to visit anyone, he asked me what I wanted to do.  I said, I want to go upstairs, cuddle on the bed and maybe get a nice back rub, with lotion.

He said, lets play cards.  I said, I'd rather have a back rub.  He said lets watch a movie.  I said, I'm going upstairs to lay on the bed.  He said, your crazy, you're losing it.  I said because I want a back rub, you think I'm crazy?  I think you're that guy in the Bible that gives his kid a serpent when he asked for a turtle! (That's not really the actual Bible quote, but he knew what I meant).

I pretty much laid in bed all evening, eventually crying myself to sleep.  So much for sticking to your guns.  It must be the extinction burst happening.  He's so non-receptive to anything I suggest.  I'm too tired and frustrated to care anymore.

I know what that feels like, too. My H told me I need to be more aggressive, and one time I started to kiss his neck... .run my hands up and down his body, and he didn't move. I opened my eyes and he was just staring at me like... .blankly. I'll never forget that. I kept at it... .you know trying to be aggressive and said something flirty and he just said maybe later? I'm really tired. And he rolled over and fell asleep within seconds.

I just laid there for a long time crying and feeling really really undesirable. Dealing with a pwBPD is not like dealing with a non male. After years of trying... .I quit trying for awhile. It hurts to be rejected over and over and over. It does mess you up. Then... .I was blamed for that too.

It got to the point to where I would get angry at sex scenes on TV shows and I wouldn't look at them. I was jealous of fake people having fake sex. Every time he said something about how pretty a girl was, or her eyes or any compliment I wanted to scream.

To me, it felt like oh he can find them attractive... .but I'm just nothing. Anytime we talked about it... .he would say it's not me, and he's sick and disgusted with himself for not being able to please me... .ugh it's a mess.

It just becomes a huge mess, and trying to dig through the BPD makes it 1,000 times harder, because then you get to add his insecurities about himself, and thinking I'm going to cheat... .it goes on and on.

[Grey Kitty]

Is playing the part of living blow-up doll for him doing something in accordance with your values? Or is it against your values? Does it leave you feeling soiled, or that you did something to improve your marriage and you feel good about that? (No debate that the sex wasn't satisfying for you.)

I can't really give a black and white answer to this.

Taking one for the team (being a blow up doll) every once in a while is well within my values. It began to violate my values when it became clear that it was a pervasive pattern rather than a situation where I was taking one for the team. Initially, I was doing it to try to find ways to improve my marriage. Again, it didn't really start violating my values until it became obvious that it was doing more harm than good.

I don't think your values changed over time; I think your situation did, so your values pointed you toward choosing different actions.

Earlier, you were feeling generous when you offer this to him, making a wiling choice for your own reasons and motivation. (Take one for the team)

Later, you were feeling trapped or hopeless. You weren't feeling like you were doing it willingly. (The team kept on taking!)

Your spirit of generosity had gone away from what was the exact same act in a different situation, and you did feel soiled and used by the experience.

I'm not saying that the difference is strictly black and white--your feelings probably kinda slid from one place to another. But eventually you were on the other side of a very real line.

[MissyM]

VOC, I heartily agree that trying to solve this problem by doing sex differently doesn't work.  As I said, trying to solve anorexia by focusing on food doesn't work.  (I use that example because these 2 issues are the most similar in the brain).

GK, interesting.  I take VOC's description as not a change in generosity but as a loss of hope.  It sounds like she used to hope that the sex would improve so she kept "taking one for the team" and once she realized it was not getting better, she really began to get in touch with how bad it felt.  As a codependent, I can sacrifice myself for quite a while before I realize it feels bad and icky.

[Rapt Reader]

This conversation is bringing back so many memories for me of a time when my marriage was suffering from the same lack of intimacy and my feelings of being the unappreciated partner to my Husband's actions. It happened throughout the whole 2.5 years of his affair with another woman (I knew something was going on for the first 2 years or so, but wasn't sure--or willing to be sure--that it was a sexual affair and not the "emotional affair" he kept telling me it was).

During the first 2 years of it, I consented to "cold sex" (I knew his heart wasn't into it; looking back I now believe he wanted sex with me during that time because he was deluding himself that as long as he was intimate with me as much as he was with his girlfriend, he wasn't taking anything away from our marriage. Right   ) because I needed the act to prove to me that he still loved me though I knew he had a relationship with another woman.

My young (32) and naïve mind assumed that as long as I was consenting to sex anytime he wanted it, he would avoid escalating the "emotional affair" to a sexual one. It dehumanized me and demoralized me, but I thought I was preserving our marriage with included 2 young sons. I continued to consent to that act even after he admitted the sexual nature of the affair, because he kept telling me every time I caught them engaging again (not in person, but by evidence) that he was working on "getting over her". I thought that my consenting and participating would help him accomplish that.

After the affair ended, it took me a very long time to feel intimate with him, to trust him, to want to have the closeness of an intimate relationship with him again. A few years for it to really get to that point, actually. I've mentioned this in posts on this Board before, but one of the turning points for me was when I read the book Intimate Partners by Maggie Scarf.

It was a studied read, included little exercises to write out and contemplate, but by the time I finished it I had such a good idea of what had drawn us together in the first place, what had most likely caused his actions, why I had reacted and acted the way I did, and how to figure out the next step. Here's something from the synopsis of her book (linked to above) that explains it all better than I can:

Scarf looks backward in order to look forward. That is, she analyzes the ways in which unconscious expectations and patterns of relating—imported into the here-and-now from their earliest experiences—are often the primary source of conflict in many partners’ relationships. She also shows how emotional triangles—which may involve a child, an in-law, a boss or some other outsider—are often used by intimate partners to handle tensions within the marriage itself.

What can a couple do to understand the basic scaffolding of their marriage—and to make any desired changes and improvements? The author shows how to construct a genogram—a roadmap of each partner’s inherited emotional history—in order to better understand issues that are arising in the present. And in a section of the book devoted to several sets of simple tasks, she sets out some easy exercises that intimate partners can use to resolve tension and conflict, and to change the very nature of the world they share.

I can't say that this will have the same effect on everyone who reads this book, but I can say that you would have a very good idea of why things are affecting you, and you as a couple, and ways to at least think about changing things. I really recommend it for at least some insights into intimacy-related situations.

[Crumbling]

  That sounds so tough. So much rejection.

  Sticking to your truth and being open enough about what you wanted is good powerful (and hard!) work.

I'm impressed that you did stick to asking for what you want, even though you had very good reason to fear he would do exactly what he did... .let you down and reject you.

There is incredible strength in that kind of vulnerability. 

Thanks, GK.  I sure feel emotionally drained today.  It did feel right at the time.  It may not of been a successful attempt, but it did bring the issue out in the open, front and centre, no longer to be ignored.   And I think you're last post, about crossing a very real line is bang on.  I described it to him this way... .you're running around a gym, you get tired, you stop, you can't run anymore.  I've run around the 'cold sex' track enough times, I just can't make another lap.

T

2. It requires pushing somebody to do something that they have clearly expressed a dislike for in the past. It doesn't matter whether or not anyone agrees with or understands his dislike of giving back rubs. I am thinking of it in the reverse. If a pwBPD were to persist at getting us to do something that we don't like, how would a "non" respond. Most likely, we would say "enforce a boundary". No matter how persistent the pwBPD is, keep your boundary. That is what is said time and time again on this site. So, why is it different in the case of a back rub? Her husband has said he doesn't like it and now she is trying to force the issue. Him changing the subject and suggesting things such as playing cards was painful and hurtful to her. But, if the tables were turned and it was him asking for something that she didn't want to give and she behaved that way, everyone would be patting her on the back for enforcing a boundary.

No, you make a good point, VoC.  But what is the alternative... .accept that he 'doesn't like intimacy'... .isn't that what this discussion is all about, not just accepting a lack of intimacy?

[Notwendy]

I take VOC's description as not a change in generosity but as a loss of hope.  It sounds like she used to hope that the sex would improve so she kept "taking one for the team" and once she realized it was not getting better, she really began to get in touch with how bad it felt.  As a codependent, I can sacrifice myself for quite a while before I realize it feels bad and icky.

This is my situation exactly. I don't get much out of casual sex. In college, a lot of my peers were happy with hooking up or being friends with benefits, but this just wasn't for me- I didn't want that. However, I let my H talk me into that. H would say " it's normal, other women like this" when I asked who those other women were, he'd say something like "everyone knows that". I don't know where he got his information from ( porn? ) but I allowed him to convince me that I was the one who was not normal. So, like Vortex said, I thought that if he got the kind of sex he wanted, that he'd be happy with me, but it wasn't good for me.

Ironically, doing it this way is one of the only times ED is not a problem. It is when he actually has to be concerned about my end of the experience that he has ED. In fact, the whole thing is different for us now because of the ED part.  Even with medication, the emotional baggage is there. The medicine makes him less fearful that something won't happen, but it doesn't make the emotional aspect normal. The ED aspect has changed much of this for me. If I get into the experience too much, then the experience is lost to me as he loses function.

Although I never liked casual hook ups, we are better when we are not too close. He is happiest when I don't expect us to speak about intimate subjects, and when he doesn't have to be too intimate with me in bed.

FF asked about hope. I can hope we will get along better because respecting the iron clad boundaries he has about himself, with the moat stocked with alligators around his boundary castle, to be absolutely certain that nobody gets too close too him results in us getting along better with each other. It takes a lot of energy to try to get past those gators and they bite.

I think we can maintain a relationship at that level. For something else, to ever have that deep connected intimacy emotionally and physically, I have doubts.

[Notwendy]

Rapt Reader, thank you for your post. Will that book work if only I read it? I ask this because when I was trying to fix my marriage, I was the only one reading anything. I have shown books to my H, but he won't read them. He says he doesn't have time. He doesn't have any interest. He's not shown much, if any, interest in changing to make the marriage better, and I know he won't read it.

In a way, I wonder if that was what was going on with my H too. There was someone else in his life but I don't know the extent of it. He did tell me she tried to seduce him. I thought that was odd since before someone tries to seduce someone, a lot of other stuff has to happen- talking, being alone together.

I have worked with men before, been friends with them, and even spent long hours at work, however, I have never had anyone tried to seduce me, because to me, there are a lot of other boundaries to cross before that point. My male co-workers would never get the idea that this would be OK to do.

Before anyone gets the idea that a reason for this is that perhaps I am not as attractive to him as I was, I am about the same size I was when we were married, and although I am older but not unattractive for my age. This other person was not exceptionally attractive, but she idealized  him and that was attractive. In fact, from some of her behavior with several people I wondered if she had BPD.

At any rate, I suspect there was a lot more, but how much more I don't know. I often think that painting me black was a way to excuse himself from betraying the marriage if that was what he was doing, and that perhaps, as you said, having sex with me was a way to maintain the idea that he wasn't denying me that part of the marriage, so he could continue to see himself as a good guy.

[Grey Kitty]

But what is the alternative... .accept that he 'doesn't like intimacy'... .isn't that what this discussion is all about, not just accepting a lack of intimacy?

I would suggest that if you cannot get intimate sex with him, and he doesn't like giving you a backrub, or the one he gives you isn't intimate... .or both... .

Start by accepting that he has real issues around being intimate. (For sure, being intimate with you, but most likely being intimate with anybody.)

And accept that you cannot push, beg, plead, or manipulate him into being intimate with you... .and when you try like that, the result you should expect is to be rejected, disappointed, hurt... .and likely cry yourself to sleep again.  

Still stick with your truth--that you want intimacy with him. And accept that it can only be given freely and willingly from him. You cannot take it from him.

... .you aren't there yet, but the next encouraging step may well be when you discover that your H does want intimacy with you, but cannot allow himself to do it... .for his own reasons that he's trying to work through. If you chase him less, he may realize that he's run away to a place that feels uncomfortable, and wants to come back.

[Grey Kitty]

In a way, I wonder if that was what was going on with my H too. There was someone else in his life but I don't know the extent of it. He did tell me she tried to seduce him. I thought that was odd since before someone tries to seduce someone, a lot of other stuff has to happen- talking, being alone together.

I have worked with men before, been friends with them, and even spent long hours at work, however, I have never had anyone tried to seduce me, because to me, there are a lot of other boundaries to cross before that point. My male co-workers would never get the idea that this would be OK to do.

Completely true. Sounds like you have much better boundaries than your H has. You are aware when things that are inappropriate for a coworker start to happen, and deal with it. It stops at that level.

A pwBPD doesn't get this. They blow past people's boundaries. They let people blow past their boundaries. And don't even notice until it has gone at least to the point of seduction!

[Rapt Reader]

Notwendy, I read the book myself--my Husband also will not read any self-help type stuff. Even with him not reading it, and not completing the exercises (that's the "Genogram" mentioned at the link I gave), the book helped us immensely.

In the parts of the exercises where I needed his input in order to complete them all myself, I just casually mentioned my own family history that I was writing down, and asked him if he remembered anything about this or that relative in the "family stories" he heard as a kid.

The funny thing, though, is that his Mom, my undiagnosed BPD M-I-L (where he got all of his BPD traits from), is the person who filled in the blanks for me the most when it came to the Genogram for his side of our relationship. She loves telling stories about her life, and I got like 90% of what I needed from her. Really eye-opening, and even not ever hearing about BPD in those days (the affair lasted from early 1985 to late 1987), I learned from that book and doing the exercises pretty much exactly why he was the way he was.

I think you would get a lot out of it, even if he never reads it. It would be helpful if your relationship is conducive to him sharing some family stories and events of his growing up (if you don't already know the ones that the Genogram would require), but it's not integral for you, to learn what you need to. Actually, the conversations my Husband and I had as a result of my working with that book really brought us closer. It was fun for both of us... .

[Notwendy]

Interesting--- I will read it. However, I won't get a thing from his family. The way his family operates is that nobody talks about anything. If someone is bothered over something, they fume silently and passively act it out. Nobody will let anyone know about how they might feel. As far as they are concerned, there is nothing to talk about, except that there's a lot of unstable relationships and other crazy things going on that are not acknowleged while they can go on and on about what vegetables are growing in the garden this spring... .

It's my mom with BPD that has stories. She could tell you all about what an awful baby I was... .50 or so years later!

[formflier]

 It may not of been a successful attempt, but it did bring the issue out in the open, front and centre, no longer to be ignored.   

Crumbling,

Hang in there... .it will take effort to "keep the light shining" on this issue.  And... .we can't predict exactly where the issue will end up.  But... .if we think about the "order to the disorder"... . you have now taken a stand and upset an equilibrium.    Expect efforts (from your pwBPD) at first to try to put the equilibrium back to where his comfort level was... .once he realizes that is not going to happen... .be ready with your tools... .be strong... . my hope for you is that you can direct whatever change comes out of his realization that there is a new equilibrium... .that you can direct that change somewhere that will help you enjoy your r/s better.

 

You took a stand... .!  I'm proud of you... .!

No, you make a good point, VoC.  But what is the alternative... .accept that he 'doesn't like intimacy'... .isn't that what this discussion is all about, not just accepting a lack of intimacy?

Another way of asking... .or a rephrasing this... .is what other alternatives are there (that we as non's control... ) to move our r/s to a level of intimacy that we enjoy or want.  

[Rapt Reader]

Interesting--- I will read it. However, I won't get a thing from his family. The way his family operates is that nobody talks about anything. If someone is bothered over something, they fume silently and passively act it out. Nobody will let anyone know about how they might feel. As far as they are concerned, there is nothing to talk about, except that there's a lot of unstable relationships and other crazy things going on that are not acknowleged while they can go on and on about what vegetables are growing in the garden this spring... .

It's my mom with BPD that has stories. She could tell you all about what an awful baby I was... .50 or so years later!

It's too bad about his family, Notwendy, but hopefully he himself will have information that can help with the exercises (they aren't hard, or "work", so don't fear them   ). In fact, all that matters is his perceptions of things, anyway, since those are what informed his attitudes and feelings... .

Your Mom will be an invaluable source for you, if there are things you don't remember or are "iffy" on so many years later, especially if you were not born or very young when they happened. My own M-I-L remembers things that nobody else has a memory of... .I'm sure some of them are a bit "off", but most times she's pretty good about them, and she's 85 now. If one of her kids was an awful baby, she's remembering it like it was yesterday 

[Notwendy]

Thanks, I ordered the book. Anything I can do on my end, will help me in the long run. It will be interesting to see the info in the book.

LOL the stories... .yes, there is one incident that happened when I was a teen and got in trouble for something, and still my mom will say "do you remember when you did this... ." like it was yesterday. and it's like come on mom, that was so long ago, it's not even something I ever think about.

[vortex of confusion]

No, you make a good point, VoC.  But what is the alternative... .accept that he 'doesn't like intimacy'... .isn't that what this discussion is all about, not just accepting a lack of intimacy?

One back rub does not equal intimacy. I know you know that. I have been where you are and will probably be there again because I know that this is a long process. Really, I think that accepting that he doesn't like intimacy is a step in the right direction. Taking that step is friggin' hard though. It was a couple of years ago that I realized that my husband didn't want me. I won't lie. I found a lover. It isn't right but that was my messed up reaction to the situation. It set off a big mess but the big mess has shown a lot of light on things about myself. Ultimately, that is part of what led me to finding this site.

I don't know if I did things backwards or what but I think I started looking at what I don't want. I don't want cold sex. Bam, it's off the table. I don't want him talking to me certain ways. Bam, I can stop that by walking away. What could I do? A week or so ago, he started posting ads and talking to women online again. I told him that if he wanted to do that I was no longer going to hug and kiss him either. I started taking things off the table because I wasn't comfortable with doing those things with somebody that had no desire to be intimate (physically or emotionally) with me. I would have liked to leave and get some actual, real space but I couldn't so I tried to simulate the no hugs, etc. After a couple of days, he decided to take down his ads and do some other stuff. While it isn't intimacy, it IS a step in the right direction. It gives me some hope.

[vortex of confusion]

VOC, I heartily agree that trying to solve this problem by doing sex differently doesn't work.  As I said, trying to solve anorexia by focusing on food doesn't work.  (I use that example because these 2 issues are the most similar in the brain).

GK, interesting.  I take VOC's description as not a change in generosity but as a loss of hope.  It sounds like she used to hope that the sex would improve so she kept "taking one for the team" and once she realized it was not getting better, she really began to get in touch with how bad it felt.  As a codependent, I can sacrifice myself for quite a while before I realize it feels bad and icky.

I think both of you are correct. To add a little bit of context to things, I have 4 kids. For 11 or 12 years of our marriage, I was pregnant and/or nursing. There were a whole lot of years where my days were filled with diapers and crying babies and feeding kids and stuff like that. I didn't really have time to think much about whether or not I was sacrificing myself or felt icky or anything like that. It is something I did. I was probably just as disconnected as him during those 11 or 12 years. It wasn't until I stopped nursing, the kids got out of diapers, and a bunch of other stuff happened that I realized what was going on. I think was somewhere around year 4 or 5 that he lost his job due to porn. We dealt with stuff at a very superficial level. Got busy having kids and promptly swept it all under the rug. Now that my youngest is 6, there are no more excuses. Everything that was swept under the rug is now coming to a head.

[MissyM]

Rapt, that looks like an interesting book I will have to check it out. There are two books that I really like Intimacy Factor by Pia Melody and the couple's guide to intimacy. Intimacy Factor can be read without a spouse's involvement, I got a lot out of it.

[waverider]

Sex is different things to different people, at one end it is the pinnacle of ultimate bonding of two people, you are one "unit" at that time and the rest of the world may as well not exist. It is the ultimate in validation, support and self worth. The ultimate in empathy

At the other end it is a thrill, a sensation, daring or even reinforcement of ones own power and appeal, it has very little real bond to your partner.

The nature of BPD can tend towards the later. As far as male vs female, these can fall in either option, though I think a male mind quite often has the capability to break things down into practicalities and cannot hold onto the purity of the former option as long, even in the moment.

This is not a golden rule as there is a whole sliding scale in between.

The real issue is that once the outside world (often by distraction or thoughts about self) is allowed to mess with the idealized bond, it leaves a scar, if this is allowed to continually happen the scar totally disables the ability to believe in the idealization any more. This shows and bonding starts to disolve as both partners start to go through the motions

As idealization is a strong factor in this close bonding sex, it explains why it is at its greatest in new relationships. If you can maintain a high bonding sex life it in effects re energizes a dose of idealization into the relationship. This shows by how you behave immediately after sex. Does the switch go off and straight back into "normality" and do you feel a lingering recharged warmth for a while?

[MissyM]

The real issue is that once the outside world (often by distraction or thoughts about self) is allowed to mess with the idealized bond, it leaves a scar, if this is allowed to continually happen the scar totally disables the ability to believe in the idealization any more. This shows and bonding starts to disolve as both partners start to go through the motions

Interesting.  I can see how that would be true in a relationship that started with high bonding.  Mine with my husband did not, there was almost no sexual bonding in the first 11 years of marriage or any the year we were dating.  We now have that bond and I certainly hope we will maintain it.

[ColdEthyl]

Sex is different things to different people, at one end it is the pinnacle of ultimate bonding of two people, you are one "unit" at that time and the rest of the world may as well not exist. It is the ultimate in validation, support and self worth. The ultimate in empathy

At the other end it is a thrill, a sensation, daring or even reinforcement of ones own power and appeal, it has very little real bond to your partner.

The nature of BPD can tend towards the later. As far as male vs female, these can fall in either option, though I think a male mind quite often has the capability to break things down into practicalities and cannot hold onto the purity of the former option as long, even in the moment.

This is not a golden rule as there is a whole sliding scale in between.

The real issue is that once the outside world (often by distraction or thoughts about self) is allowed to mess with the idealized bond, it leaves a scar, if this is allowed to continually happen the scar totally disables the ability to believe in the idealization any more. This shows and bonding starts to disolve as both partners start to go through the motions

As idealization is a strong factor in this close bonding sex, it explains why it is at its greatest in new relationships. If you can maintain a high bonding sex life it in effects re energizes a dose of idealization into the relationship. This shows by how you behave immediately after sex. Does the switch go off and straight back into "normality" and do you feel a lingering recharged warmth for a while?

... .ok seriously... is there anyway I can like... .have a waverider app? I really want to have your nuggets of wisdom for everything. You have an incredible ability of boiling everything down into an easy to digest formula.

THIS. This is exactly our problem. My husband and I have talked about it before... .he has said sex is just stimulation of body parts... .and I tell him to me sex is a part of myself I share only with my partner, so it means much more than that to me.  

[formflier]

THIS. This is exactly our problem. My husband and I have talked about it before... .he has said sex is just stimulation of body parts... .and I tell him to me sex is a part of myself I share only with my partner, so it means much more than that to me.  

And this... .THIS... .is exactly the kind of discussion that needs to happen... .with a focus on understanding the other person. 

Each partner doesn't have to agree with each other... .but hopefully if the "space" is created where each can talk about their views/hopes/desires for sex... .intimacy may follow.

More later!

[vortex of confusion]

To whomever renamed this discussion, I think the new title is inaccurate--particularly the "female discussion" at the end. I have known women who were as, shall we say "outcome oriented" as men and when I was young I was familiar with Waverider's description on occasion: "a thrill, a sensation, daring or even reinforcement of ones own power and appeal, it has very little real bond to your partner."

I think this is a bit different than the mechanical, spaced-out sex that we have been talking about, which certainly could be performed by persons of both genders.

Um, amen Cat Familiar.  

One of the things that I really enjoyed about being with my lover was the fact that it totally reinforced my appeal and abilities. There was definitely some chemistry between us too. There was NO real intimacy there. Lots of passion but no real intimacy. (I think most people on this thread know my story. Having a lover was the result of my husband and I trying out an open relationship.)

That is very, very different than the stuff that I have experienced with my husband. Even in the early days of our relationship, there was no real fireworks. I hear a lot of people talk about how great things were in the beginning. They may have been great because of the newness but they weren't great in other areas.

[waverider]

THIS. This is exactly our problem. My husband and I have talked about it before... .he has said sex is just stimulation of body parts... .and I tell him to me sex is a part of myself I share only with my partner, so it means much more than that to me.  

And this... .THIS... .is exactly the kind of discussion that needs to happen... .with a focus on understanding the other person. 

Each partner doesn't have to agree with each other... .but hopefully if the "space" is created where each can talk about their views/hopes/desires for sex... .intimacy may follow.

More later!

Being on the same page, or at least not assuming you are when you are not is a good start

[Crumbling]

I was on the site someone suggested about Intimacy Anorexia.  I hadn't quite finished when I got pulled away from the computer.  The next thing I know he's reading it.  I just said, I haven't really even looked at that site yet.  Fingers crossed, I just kept making supper as he read.  When he was done, he mumbled something about the place to put your email which I didn't get, then I heard the words you'll figure it out... .   ... .I asked him what he meant and he said nothing dear.

All I know is that the issue has now been planted in his mind in full print by Dr. Weiss , because what I read there feels a lot like him.  But how do I know if he's ' urposely' doing it, or if it's an unconscious thing.  He knows he does it.  That whole turtle vs serpent issue has been there from day one for us.  Our very first Valentine's Day together he bought me a wood sander, for his wood shop.  And our first Christmas, he brought back the band saw I gave him and got a scroll saw he never uses.  He knows he has an issue with giving freely, it really feels like he can't.  To think he's choosing to hold affection from me... .well, I just can't go there.

He is hugely in the red in our giving accounts.  He pushed me to continue to do physical work while I had a medical issue that caused tissue damage throughout my body because I did that physical work.  This issue alone is very hard for me to get past.  I can't believe people that cold exist in the world.

My hope comes from my beliefs.  Bible tells me, if I stay my path and not break my vows, we will be blessed and have good fortune.  I'm still in the r/s because we have had great blessings, in other ways over the years.  But we've also both fallen a lot, too.  Me most recently, and him over and over and over for ten years.

The last year was an improvement... .but is it enough?  The men in this discussion are right about one thing, we need to look at adjusting our ' oint of view' on the matter.  Facing the issue head on and really examining what we are willing to swallow and what we're just gonna spit out   would likely help.



I'm going to keep allowing myself to mourn and try to sort through the emotional loss.  I know that was what I was doing last night, anyway.  And what I've been doing for a while I think.  I just didn't recognize it.

I don't get angry at him about it anymore.  And I don't hold any hopes that he will change... .sorry but it's the only evidence I've seen, so why should I believe otherwise? 

I am willing to discuss getting someone specialized in intimacy issues, that's a great idea.  And I am glad now that we never went the 'sex therapist' route.  See, small blessings. 

[Crumbling]

To whomever renamed this discussion, I think the new title is inaccurate--particularly the "female discussion" at the end. I have known women who were as, shall we say "outcome oriented" as men and when I was young I was familiar with Waverider's description on occasion: "a thrill, a sensation, daring or even reinforcement of ones own power and appeal, it has very little real bond to your partner."

I think this is a bit different than the mechanical, spaced-out sex that we have been talking about, which certainly could be performed by persons of both genders.

So my original title, is 'no cold sex' a boundary sort of got lost somewhere.  I really wondered if I could put up that boundary, what it would look like and stuff.  I know it isn't fair to hold sex from your husband, but if you know your mental state is too weak to keep you out of nasty thoughts, what do you do?  Whose need comes first?

You're right, it's a zoning out that happens.  But that's really a different topic than what I intended, really.  I guess the only reason it wasn't my topic was because I didn't realize other men did this until this conversation took place.      I did initially ask about his cold approach to initiating sex, which I guess, is similar to having cold sex.  

We can actually have great super great sex, as long as the focus is on him. Takes two to tango... and we only have cold sex when I turn off the heat, because he cant seem to make heat happen.   He makes very little or no effort to turn up my heat.  

So my original title, is 'no cold sex' a boundary sort of got lost somewhere.  I really wondered if I could put up that boundary, what it would look like and stuff.  I know it isn't fair to hold sex from your husband, but if you know your mental state is too weak to keep you out of nasty thoughts, what do you do?  Whose need comes first?

Would it be fair to say "If I know I won't stay grounded, I'm not going to agree to sex in that moment."?

[Grey Kitty]

Would it be fair to say "If I know I won't stay grounded, I'm not going to agree to sex in that moment."?

It would be fair. In fact far less than that would be fair.

When it comes to refusing sex, to your husband (or anybody else for that matter!), I am very hardcore about consent and respecting boundaries.

It starts here:

Your body is your own.

Nobody has a right to "use" your body in ANY way that you are not willing to offer and give freely.

So if you do not feel like having sex with anybody (whether they are your husband or not!), that is the end of it. And the only right thing for them to do is to not have sex with you.

In other words, it happens only with your consent.

If you have to 'justify' withholding consent, then it isn't consent anymore. You don't need a reason to withhold consent. You don't need a good reason. You don't need a bad reason. You don't need to share your reason.


... .so... .if you feel like sex would hurt you (emotionally, physically, or in any other way), and do not want it, that trumps any need that anybody else on the planet has.

End of statement.

[vortex of confusion]

It would be fair. In fact far less than that would be fair.

When it comes to refusing sex, to your husband (or anybody else for that matter!), I am very hardcore about consent and respecting boundaries.

It starts here:

Your body is your own.

Nobody has a right to "use" your body in ANY way that you are not willing to offer and give freely.

So if you do not feel like having sex with anybody (whether they are your husband or not!), that is the end of it. And the only right thing for them to do is to not have sex with you.

In other words, it happens only with your consent.

If you have to 'justify' withholding consent, then it isn't consent anymore. You don't need a reason to withhold consent. You don't need a good reason. You don't need a bad reason. You don't need to share your reason.


... .so... .if you feel like sex would hurt you (emotionally, physically, or in any other way), and do not want it, that trumps any need that anybody else on the planet has.

End of statement.

I would like to give you a standing ovation for this GK!

I really, really needed to hear this and be reminded of it. I found myself in a moment not too long ago where I could freely give myself to my husband. He took it as me being magically okay with everything and started getting a little too close in other areas and hinting about some things that I wasn't yet comfortable with yet. I had to ask him to back off and take things a little more slowly. I am not ready to jump back on the saddle on a regular basis. I still have a lot of thinking and figuring stuff out to do.

[formflier]

  Our very first Valentine's Day together he bought me a wood sander, for his wood shop.  And our first Christmas, he brought back the band saw I gave him and got a scroll saw he never uses.  He knows he has an issue with giving freely, it really feels like he can't. 

Wow... .what did you say to him when he gave it?  I've heard of things like this second and third hand... .but never actually talked to someone directly.

Wow...

So... .how many times has he given you gifts... that really were for him... .and how many times has he given you gifts that are really for you. (stuff you like and appreciate)

Is gift giving a big deal for you?  In my "love languages"... .it is last place.  Same for my wife.  We do get gifts... .but it is not a big deal... .for either of us.

  He pushed me to continue to do physical work while I had a medical issue that caused tissue damage throughout my body because I did that physical work.  This issue alone is very hard for me to get past.  I can't believe people that cold exist in the world.

How many times has something like this happened in your r/s?  If it ever comes up again... what is your plan?  What "lesson" or "tool" would you use?

The last year was an improvement... .but is it enough? 

No... .it's not "enough"... .IT is a process.  A r/s is a dynamic thing... .BPD traits don't change that.  R/s are rarely static... .what I hope you can focus on is that there has been improvement... .and you have become stronger... .and more educated about the disorder... .and that a year from now... .most likely... there will be even more improvement.

The moment you say... ."it's enough"... .the dynamic and momentum will start shifting... .  Please keep pushing in the right direction... .

I'm going to keep allowing myself to mourn and try to sort through the emotional loss. 

Embrace the emotions and feelings... .let them motivate you to go to a better place!

I don't get angry at him about it anymore.

Should you still get angry about it?  Is anger a bad thing?  My take is it depends on what you do with the anger... .

From what I have read... .if it was me... .I would be angry... .

[vortex of confusion]

You're right, it's a zoning out that happens.  But that's really a different topic than what I intended, really.  I guess the only reason it wasn't my topic was because I didn't realize other men did this until this conversation took place.     I did initially ask about his cold approach to initiating sex, which I guess, is similar to having cold sex.

Hmmm, there might be a slight difference. If he initiates in a cold way and I am feeling it, I am going to take the ball and run with it. If he initiates in a cold way and I am not feeling it, then it is cold sex. At least that is the way it was in my house. His idea of initiating was shutting and locking the bedroom door. That was my cue.

We can actually have great super great sex, as long as the focus is on him. Takes two to tango... and we only have cold sex when I turn off the heat, because he cant seem to make heat happen.   He makes very little or no effort to turn up my heat.

I could have written that! It gets very, very tiring to be the one that does all of the work. The joke about a partner just laying there isn't a joke in my house. I literally do all of the work from beginning to end. And when it is over, he is in a rush to get his towel from under the bed so he can clean up. I don't think I have ever shared that little detail with anyone.

I really wondered if I could put up that boundary, what it would look like and stuff.  I know it isn't fair to hold sex from your husband, but if you know your mental state is too weak to keep you out of nasty thoughts, what do you do?  Whose need comes first?

Yes, I think that is a perfectly reasonable boundary to have. I have pretty much stopped having sex with my husband. He got to where he wouldn't initiate but would complain about not having sex. I think he took me not initiating as rejection. I was a friggin' mess. I would initiate, do all of the work, and then have to get up and go take care of the kids afterwards. It was too much for me to deal with. If he is lucky, he might get it once a month. And then, it has to be mutual and I have to feel up to it. He can hint about it or say or do whatever he wants but I am not going to go down that road where he goes back to expecting me to do it all.

[Cat Familiar]

Crumbling, I had to laugh about the wood sander. Sorry 

My ex-husband bought me gifts that he wanted and when we divorced all those presents left with him. Often he wouldn't think to get me anything at all.

And pushing you to do physical work when you had a medical condition and shouldn't--that sounds like my ex too. He would push me so hard when we hiked that I remember throwing up afterwards. 

[Skip]

So my original title, is 'no cold sex' a boundary sort of got lost somewhere.  I really wondered if I could put up that boundary, what it would look like and stuff.  I know it isn't fair to hold sex from your husband, but if you know your mental state is too weak to keep you out of nasty thoughts, what do you do?  Whose need comes first?

So if you do not feel like having sex with anybody (whether they are your husband or not!), that is the end of it. And the only right thing for them to do is to not have sex with you.

This is a very significant juncture in a typical monogamous relationship journey. When you close the door on intimacy in a relationship you are beginning to dismantle the relationship and that is generally a process that can get out of control in ways you might not expect.

At this fork in the road the choice is to rebuild or tear down.

Backtracking a bit... .what is the value behind this boundary and how have you be living up to it?

[MissyM]

I really wondered if I could put up that boundary, what it would look like and stuff.  I know it isn't fair to hold sex from your husband, but if you know your mental state is too weak to keep you out of nasty thoughts, what do you do?  Whose need comes first?

Would it be fair to say "If I know I won't stay grounded, I'm not going to agree to sex in that moment."?

I think everyone has to work that boundary out for themselves.  My boundary is no sex without intimacy.  We had to stop sex a couple of times when my dBPDh "went away" in the middle of sex, so I stopped and said that I noticed he went away and asked if it was ok to cuddle instead.  It no longer happens, he just no longer disappears inside of himself when we are having sex.  He has done a ton of work on himself, think a lot of his issue was disappearing because of shame, and now he is very happy to have an intimate sex life.  Think the issue can be different for everyone.  Many SAs disappear into their head because they are having fantasies about porn or other women, with my dBPDh he was disappearing into his head and criticizing his performance and inability (Yikes!).  No wonder he is happier doing it the way we do now.  And let's be clear, I am not encouraging anyone to set an angry boundary to cut their husband off from sex.  However, continuing to have cold and non intimate sex isn't going to change anything.  I know my dBPDh and I have had to dismantle our old marriage and build a new one.

I was on the site someone suggested about Intimacy Anorexia.  I hadn't quite finished when I got pulled away from the computer.  The next thing I know he's reading it.  I just said, I haven't really even looked at that site yet.  Fingers crossed, I just kept making supper as he read.  When he was done, he mumbled something about the place to put your email which I didn't get, then I heard the words you'll figure it out... .shocked huh rolleyes... .I asked him what he meant and he said nothing dear.

Yes, I put that on the other thread.  :)oug Weiss has good info on Intimacy Anorexia, which can exist without SA.  He has several books and DVDs.  My dBPDh mainly suffered with this and I wish that I had known what that was before he start adding on all of the other crap, I can have much more compassion for this issue than others.  And to be clear, I have my own intimacy issues or I wouldn't be with my husband (they are different but fit together).

www.posarc.com/partners/sexual-anorexia

I am willing to discuss getting someone specialized in intimacy issues, that's a great idea.

It has been life changing for us, added in attachment therapy for couples and things are GOOD!

[Grey Kitty]

So if you do not feel like having sex with anybody (whether they are your husband or not!), that is the end of it. And the only right thing for them to do is to not have sex with you.

This is a very significant juncture in a monogamous relationship journey. When you close the door on intimacy you are beginning to dismantle the relationship and that is generally a process that can get out of control in ways you might not expect.

At this fork in the road the choice is to rebuild or tear down.

Backtracking a bit... .what is the value behind this boundary and how have you be living up to it?

The original circumstances where I got up on my soapbox about consent was where crumbling felt that the intimacy was already long gone... .and the physical sex without intimacy made left her feeling horrible and used, and she was questioning whether she had a right to set this boundary.

In this circumstance, I'd say that what she is doing is acknowledging and bringing into the open the damage that withholding intimacy has already done to the relationship.

She absolutely does have that right.

Skip, I agree with you that there are consequences that come with using that right and enforcing that boundary. Using that 'right' for capricious or manipulative ends is horrible and toxic. Using it for any reason other than to protect yourself from real (likely emotional) harm is not something I'd ever recommend.

Acknowledging that the right exists is a critical first step for creating safety in any r/s... .I think that feeling safe in this way allows a partner to start working on next steps to improve the r/s and recover.

[MissyM]

I

n this circumstance, I'd say that what she is doing is acknowledging and bringing into the open the damage that withholding intimacy has already done to the relationship.

She absolutely does have that right.

Skip, I agree with you that there are consequences that come with using that right and enforcing that boundary. Using that 'right' for capricious or manipulative ends is horrible and toxic. Using it for any reason other than to protect yourself from real (likely emotional) harm is not something I'd ever recommend.

Acknowledging that the right exists is a critical first step for creating safety in any r/s... .I think that feeling safe in this way allows a partner to start working on next steps to improve the r/s and recover.

Why do we not have a clapping hands emoji!   Perfectly well stated.

[Skip]

She absolutely does have that right.

We have the right to have affairs. We have the right to draw down the bank accounts.  We have the right to file restraining orders. We have the right to become an alcoholic.  We have the right to crash the car.  We have the right to be selfish.

We have lots of rights.  I'm not sggesting that we give up any rights.  My question is, is this matter about rights?

Or is this about making a decision to try and save the relationship or break it down.

Ask any counselor.  Selfishness is the bane of a relationship.

Rather than exercise rights, it may make more sense to exercise heart.  To ask for compassion and to offer it.  To seek a solution together - and these come in many ways - together.

On a side note... .we have to be very careful here not to triangulate (and I'm not point this at anyone in particular - its very general statement) anyones relationship and encourage further polarization in that family.  It's easy to slip down this slope   .  We really want to be mindful to be a centering force in each others relationships on the Staying board.

[MissyM]

Ask any counselor.  Selfishness is the bane of a relationship.

Huh? Confusing self care and selfishness is a core issue with caretakers/codependents.  Not having sex that is emotionally violating would fall under self care.  I am kind of shocked that anyone would call that selfishness.  And I am quite honestly offended by that statement.  I am all for relationships and rebuilding, that is what my dBPDh and I have been able to do.  Part of that was owning my needs and speaking up.

[Rapt Reader]

Ask any counselor.  Selfishness is the bane of a relationship.

Huh? Confusing self care and selfishness is a core issue with caretakers/codependents.  Not having sex that is emotionally violating would fall under self care.

I'm not sure there is a conflict between

   "Selfishness" being "the bane of a relationship", and

   "self-care" being very important;

Is there a reason we can't achieve both?

I am kind of shocked that anyone would call that selfishness.  And I am quite honestly offended by that statement.

I don't see that, myself, in Skip's post, MissyM.

[vortex of confusion]

Skip, I agree with you that there are consequences that come with using that right and enforcing that boundary. Using that 'right' for capricious or manipulative ends is horrible and toxic. Using it for any reason other than to protect yourself from real (likely emotional) harm is not something I'd ever recommend.

I can't speak to Cat's situation but I can speak to my own. Yes, I have withheld but the intent was NOT to further break down the relationship. It took me a long time to get to a point where I was willing to do that. I was really afraid to stop having sex with my husband because I felt that it was my duty as his wife. I stopped so that I could try to change the dynamic. It was for ME to take ownership of my own body. Some things happened between my husband and I that bordered on sexual abuse. I need time to process some of that. If a partner pressures a spouse for sex (or anything related to sex) without regard for emotional well being, it does a lot of damage to the relationship. It required me taking a step back, figuring out what was going on, trying to heal, and then trying to figure out how I could reintroduce certain things into the relationship in a way that honors ME and my wounds.

The byproduct has been that the dynamic between my husband and I has slowly been changing. None of that would have happened if I hadn't gotten to a place where I was more comfortable with myself. Yes, it may have been considered selfish by some but that is what I needed to do in order to move forward and figure out how the heck to STOP the pattern of having sex with my husband because I was in a FOG. Having sex with your spouse due to fear, obligation, and guilt is not healthy and it doesn't feel good at all.

  I am kind of shocked that anyone would call that selfishness.  

Instead of "call it" selfish... .think about how it could be perceived.  Especially by the person being "cut off"... .

Note... .even if they "deserve it"... .they may still perceive it as a selfish act.

Sure, the person that is cut off is going to perceive it as selfish. They may perceive it as punishment or rejection or who knows what else. How many times have people on this site encouraged people to set boundaries even if they are perceived as selfish? When encouraging other to set boundaries in other areas of life, what advice is given when it comes to being worried about how actions will be perceived? Why is it different when talking about sex?

[MissyM]

Instead of "call it" selfish... .think about how it could be perceived.  Especially by the person being "cut off"... .

Note... .even if they "deserve it"... .they may still perceive it as a selfish act.

It is very damaging to the person that has been violated over and over to be told to allow the violation or they are being "selfish". I am greatly offended by this. Of course someone that is extremely entitled is going to feel that their partner is selfish if they do any self care, that is not the standard of self care.  Are we supposed to allow our spouses to emotionally or physically abuse us because if we don't they will feel we are "selfish" or do we encourage members to have boundaries around this?  This issue is no different.  Sadly, most people are greatly uneducated on this issue.  It took my dBPDh and I sixteen years of marriage and therapy to get the right kind of help.  *sigh*  It makes me so sad when I see misinformation being reinforced when I have experienced the amazing changes that intimacy and attachment therapy make about this issue. 

[Skip]

Why is it different when talking about sex?

It's not really any different.   

If we make this topic about relocation or whether to buy a new car, the point is the same.

[vortex of confusion]

It is very damaging to the person that has been violated over and over to be told to allow the violation or they are being "selfish". I am greatly offended by this. Of course someone that is extremely entitled is going to feel that their partner is selfish if they do any self care, that is not the standard of self care.  Are we supposed to allow our spouses to emotionally or physically abuse us because if we don't they will feel we are "selfish" or do we encourage members to have boundaries around this?  This issue is no different.  Sadly, most people are greatly uneducated on this issue.  It took my dBPDh and I sixteen years of marriage and therapy to get the right kind of help.  *sigh*  It makes me so sad when I see misinformation being reinforced when I have experienced the amazing changes that intimacy and attachment therapy make about this issue. 

Thank you MissyM!

I am really boiling at the idea that me withholding sex from my husband in order to heal myself is selfish. It took me a long time to get over the FOG long enough for me to stop having sex with him out of habit and then feeling bad about it. It took a long time for me to get past him doing the "Poor me, I am never going to have sex again. I might as well be celibate" guilt trips. And then, the fear that if I didn't have sex with him he would act out through porn or other women.

[Grey Kitty]

We have lots of rights.  I'm not sggesting that we give up any rights.  My question is, is this matter about rights?

If somebody questions whether they even have this right... .yes, that is a matter about rights.

I'm the kind of guy who will stand somebody up and tell them "Yes, you do have that right."

Or is this about making a decision to try and save the relationship or break it down.

Ask any counselor.  Selfishness is the bane of a relationship.

Selfishness can kill a relationship. Losing your self in your partner is toxic too.

Rather than exercise rights, it may make more sense to exercise heart.  To ask for compassion and to offer it.  To seek a solution together - and these come in many ways - together.

I agree completely, and do all I can to live that way. I know that when my sense who I was got eroded and weak, my capacity to exercise heart was minimal at best. For me, knowing that I had rights like that was a critical step before I could do much of that.

[MissyM]

I am really boiling at the idea that me withholding sex from my husband in order to heal myself is selfish. It took me a long time to get over the FOG long enough for me to stop having sex with him out of habit and then feeling bad about it. It took a long time for me to get past him doing the "Poor me, I am never going to have sex again. I might as well be celibate" guilt trips. And then, the fear that if I didn't have sex with him he would act out through porn or other women.

Me too!  I find ignorance of this issue to be frustrating.  Thankfully, I am surrounded by males and females in recovery IRL, these kind of statements about selfishness do NOT fly.  Actually, even my father gets this issue and he is not in recovery but just a very enlightened male.

[Skip]

Rather than exercise rights, it may make more sense to exercise heart.  To ask for compassion and to offer it.  To seek a solution together - and these come in many ways - together.

I agree completely, and do all I can to live that way. I know that when my sense who I was got eroded and weak, my capacity to exercise heart was minimal at best. For me, knowing that I had rights like that was a critical step before I could do much of that.

No doubt it is hard... .but when we let go of heart, where are we?

Let's look at this using money rather than sex. Let's say one partner is not comfortable with the way the other is spending money so they withdraw all the money from the accounts and give the other no access.

Good idea?

They may feel weak. They have this right.

[Grey Kitty]

No doubt it is hard... .but when we let go of heart, where are we?

Let's look at this using money rather than sex. Let's say one partner is not comfortable with the way the other is spending money so they withdraw all the money from the accounts and give the other no access.

Good idea?

They may feel weak. They have this right.

Rights apply. The comparison doesn't.

Ownership of money in a joint account is shared, and somewhat debatable. Either party has a LEGAL right to do this.

Moral/ethical right to do this? Pretty dubious.

Good idea? Not under most circumstances.

Ownership of a person's body is NEVER shared, and NEVER debatable... .at least under my moral/ethical code, which does not include slavery!

So withholding sex (which involves YOUR OWN BODY) is in a completely different moral/ethical ground.

Completely within your legal rights to do this for any reason.

Completely within your moral/ethical rights to do this for any reason.

Good idea to do this? Well that depends on what reason you picked to do it.

[Mutt]

Just a reminder about the format and guidelines for discussion, including welcoming diversity and not debating others' points of view (forum)

3.0 DISCUSSION FORMAT: bpdfamily/bpdfamily.com is set up as a collegium. We follow a Collegial Discussion format which is characterized as having "authority" vested equally among colleagues/peers. As such, members present their ideas in "collegial harmony" and the credibility of their positions are based solely on the quality of the points they advance in writing. Diversity is to be embraced - there is often much to be learned from others views and perspectives.

Please note that collegial discussion is different than debate. Debate is an argument or a discussion generally ending with a vote or agreement on the best decision. In debate, unity is the objective. Members are discouraged from debating and arguing against others' positions, questioning the wisdom of others, or restating of their position repeatedly.

1.5 Potentially Contentious Content: Discussions on contentious political, religious, moral issues (e.g., euthanasia, abortion), or social advocacy topics (feminism, anti-government, male dominance) are discouraged. There are other places to debate politics, religion, etc. and these debates are better suited for a venue where community camaraderie, trust and credibility are not highly held values. The nature of the discussions at bpdfamily/bpdfamily.com are best held without the undertone of political or religious alignments.

[Skip]

Good idea? Not under most circumstances.

Right.

And why?

Because it is exercising unilateral power over the other person.  

If one partner took all the money and gave it to a trustee or mediator who is to work with the couple to solve the money problems... .

... .better.  Right?

We have to be very careful how we solve problems involving money, sex, and children in a relationship.  These are highly charged areas that can send the relationship into a free fall.

Unilateral actions, and power need to be last resorts and they will likely have repercussions - often a counter unilateral actions or power.

This doesn't suggest for a minute that anyone needs to be violated in any of these areas.

[MissyM]

Here is an example using money to illustrate what it is like living with someone that has intimacy anorexia (sometimes they also use money for control so perfect example).

One partner is taking all of the money and spending it secretly on other things, then hiding the information and keeping total control of the money.  The 2nd partner is only being given a pittance from the 1st partner and only if the 1st partner feels like it and the 2nd partner is told over and over to not do or say anything, that to do so would be selfish.  The 2nd partner should just take the meager pittance their partner offers them and say nothing.

[Grey Kitty]

Because it is exercising unilateral power over the other person. 

If one partner took all the money and gave it to a trustee or mediator who is to work with the couple to solve the money problems... .

... .better.  Right?

Indeed, much better. And applicable with money. But the comparison breaks down for me.

Do you see refusing to have sex with somebody as exercising unilateral power over them?

[vortex of confusion]

Because it is exercising unilateral power over the other person. 

If one partner took all the money and gave it to a trustee or mediator who is to work with the couple to solve the money problems... .

... .better.  Right?

Indeed, much better. And applicable with money. But the comparison breaks down for me.

Do you see refusing to have sex with somebody as exercising unilateral power over them?

Having a mediator is probably the best option. How would one protect the assets until they could get to a mediator to help them better handle the money?

Also, I am struggling with having my body being compared to money. I am trying to understand how my body can be compared to money. I am not trying to argue. I want to understand how a person's body can be compared to money without further objectifying the partner that is already struggling with feeling used.

[MissyM]

And I guess my view is informed by the approach to SA recovery.  Sex is taken off the table anywhere from 90 days to a year, so that things can be reset and a new relationship can be made.  This is not punitive but 1st to help the SA get sober (the 90 days) and to help the couple rebuild a healthy emotional intimacy before they introduce sex.  It seems so basic but healthy emotional intimacy is missing in most relationships with sexual issues.  It is not about punishing or cutting off anyone but in lovingly rebuilding the foundation of the relationship where both partners can own their sexual and intimacy needs.  Nothing ugly or divisive about it.  I definitely recommend a "mediator" or therapist and lots of reading.  I am very grateful to have gotten some very skilled therapists to help us build the emotional intimacy, amazingly the sexual intimacy very easily followed (my dBPDh was shocked by this, happily so but he had no idea that emotional intimacy could bring really great sex).

[Skip]

-- crossed ---

I don't want to make this overly simplistic, but in the case of the money you withdraw it, walk it to the mediator, and hand each party $7,000 to cover until you work out how to approach it together.

Lead with heart.  Not power.

Sex cannot be divided into 100 parts per dollar so its a little more complex and I don't want to draw pictures, but just asking for a break before the first counseling session and making a steak dinner might do it. There is more than one way to work this out together.

Lead with heart.  Not power.

[Hmcbart]

I'm new to all of this and probably late to the party on this discussion but I tend to lean from the perspective of being the husband. My SO not diagnosed, is very controlled when it comes to anything sexual. I'm pretty smart guy but just never caught on to how much control.

Even after MC suggested we try scheduled sex every other week, she actually agreed in the office. She couldn't give up that control. I told her that I didn't feel it was fair for her to be in complete control of our sex life and get to make all the decisions about when it may happen (fyi, once a year is her thought).

In typical controlling black & white fashion I turned out to be the bad guy. I demanded the twice a month thing and she only agreed (in 2 MC sessions) because she felt pressured by me and the MC. Then I was told that I do have a choice. I can accept that it will happen when and if she wants it to happen or I can leave.

We've been married 17 yrs together 19 and have 2 kids. If I leave she moves back to Texas. I can't see my kids if I don't move with them and I can't support them if I move with no job. So the part about with holding sex is unequivocally all about control in some situations... .

I could just be bitter about it as well.

[MissyM]

So the part about with holding sex is unequivocally all about control in some situations... .

With BPD, my understanding is that it is usually about fear.  At last for my dBPDh it was, intimacy anorexia was about withholding because he was afraid of intimacy.  Really tough to deal with.  When we did have sex it was very disconnected and forced, until he got into recovery and got help.  This thread was about the disconnected part of sex and how to deal with it.  Not sure how it got turned into a discussion about withholding, as that wasn't the original topic or intent when dealing with disconnected sex.  Hope you and your wife can get some help on this issue, it is soul crushing to have a spouse that doesn't want to be intimate with you (and I am not talking about perfunctory disconnected sex).  I found an approach that dealt with the intimacy issue and took the focus off of actual sex to solve this problem in my marriage.

[Hmcbart]

I found an approach that dealt with the intimacy issue and took the focus off of actual sex to solve this problem in my marriage.

Please tell me what that approach was.

I know it's probably for a different thread but I've been painted as a sex addict now because of all of this. Not to mention the effect always playing Charlie Brown to her Lucy has on your self esteem. I'm sure it's not just a male thing, being made to feel wrong or broken because of a normal need for intimacy (not just sex) can do major damag mentally, I'm living proof.

[vortex of confusion]

Please tell me what that approach was. I know it's probably for a different thread but I've been painted as a sex addict now because of all of this. Not to mention the effect always playing Charlie Brown to her Lucy has on your self esteem. I'm sure it's not just a male thing, being made to feel wrong or broken because of a normal need for intimacy (not just sex) can do major damag mentally, I'm living proof.

At one point, I was accused of having too high of a libido. I have been told that I am probably a sex addict too. I have taken all sorts of online tests to make sure that I am not an addict. Sure, I have a high libido. I will admit to that but how does it make sense that a sex addict is complaining because his wife wants it too much? Everything surrounding sex in my relationship has one big ball of confusion and none of it has made any sense at all. I have felt very, very broken because of my need to feel connected to my spouse.

[Skip]

Please tell me what that approach was. I know it's probably for a different thread but I've been painted as a sex addict now because of all of this. Not to mention the effect always playing Charlie Brown to her Lucy has on your self esteem. I'm sure it's not just a male thing, being made to feel wrong or broken because of a normal need for intimacy (not just sex) can do major damag mentally, I'm living proof.

Your response is typical of either partner having power held over them in the area of sex, money, children (sorry to repeat)

As I read your note, twice a month was something you could work with, but what was really hard is that she powered past you and the mediator.

I imagine you would have worked with once a month and probably other mutual conditions - but the power thing is very damaging.

And the flip side... .

Everything surrounding sex in my relationship has one big ball of confusion and none of it has made any sense at all. I have felt very, very broken because of my need to feel connected to my spouse.

[Notwendy]

I think Missy has a good point about fear- fear of intimacy and getting hurt. The gift part is interesting too. My H is generous, but where it gets difficult is if I ask him directly for something. His interpretation of that is that he is being ordered around. So, for instance, my asking him to kiss me, or asking him to come to bed ( pretty nicely- I thought a husband might take that as a pretty good hint ) was experienced by my H as an order, to which he felt that if he complied, he would be "pussywhipped" (his word for a husband whose wife bosses him around ), and so to make sure he wasn't, he'd refuse to do it.  It didn't matter what the request was.

The reality is that I'm not someone who enjoys ordering people around or taking advantage of them. This kind of thing felt very odd as it stopped what I call the ebb and flow of a relationship where people do help each other out- not in an imbalanced way. The best equivalent to me would be with one of my close friends- I could call her up and ask her to pick up our kids from school, knowing she would also call me when she needed me to do that, or check her mail when out of town, or any of the small things friends do for each other. However, I wouldn't dare ask my H to even pick up his own kids from school as he'd think that was an "order". So, I basically stopped asking him to do anything and instead asked friends or got a sitter if I needed help with the kids. There's now a "mind blindness" to asking him. It is so out of the question for me, I don't think of it. When it comes to intimacy, he wants me to initiate, which I do sometimes, but since I am so trained not to ask or expect him to do anything, there's a disconnect for me.

Gifts are similar. He does give me lovely gifts, which I appreciate, but when he wants to. There was a kind of ring I always wanted- and he could afford it. I wanted it for years and he knew I loved that style of ring. I'm not a big jewelry fan, and there are few pieces that I ever like, so it isn't that I ask for this kind of thing. Eventually he asked me what size and more info, so I showed him a picture, gave him my size. Nothing, not for months. I just figured he'd never get it. I considered just getting it myself. Then, one day, he gave it to me. I asked why he waited, and he said, he wanted to decide when to get it, not just because I asked.

Why not give your wife something you can afford, or a favor, or just come to bed "just because she asked?"

I guess it comes down to the idea that if someone has to ask, it isn't special, but I don't feel that way. If someone wants something enough to ask for it, then that must mean they want it, and if I am willing to do it, then it's a nice thing to do.

As to withholding sex, I knew that was a dangerous road to travel on in marriage. How I knew that wasn't healthy- my BPD mom told me TMI about her issues with my dad, and so I knew that this was something not to do. So when my H expected unemotional sex, I assumed that not going along with that would result in a lot worse. I thought we were doing fine in the first few years of our marriage. It was my H who decided he wasn't happy and that I wasn't meeting his needs- but that was all in his own mind. I was available to him. He wouldn't tell me what he wanted or what he was thinking. He went into punitive mode- withdrawing, raging, witholding, and used statements like "I'll never have the kind of sex I want, my sex life is over, and things like that.

[Crumbling]

This is a very significant juncture in a monogamous relationship journey. When you close the door on intimacy you are beginning to dismantle the relationship and that is generally a process that can get out of control in ways you might not expect.

At this fork in the road the choice is to rebuild or tear down.

Backtracking a bit... .what is the value behind this boundary and how have you be living up to it?

Here's the confusion because I'm not looking to close the door on intimacy... .I want intimacy.  What I dont want is feeling used by having sex with my husband that is cool and strictly to satisfy him.  How can I be dismantling something that isn't there?  

For the backtracking, I was asking about it, I haven't initiated it or anything.  But something needs to change or I will leave.  I am on the staying board because I want to say.  This is his 'choice' to not be intimate - I don't know if it's a choice, that's what I'm trying to figure out.  It is BPD or him?  Is there hope of change?  Would this boundary help to spark change?

[Rapt Reader]

For the backtracking, I was asking about it, I haven't initiated it or anything.  But something needs to change or I will leave.  I am on the staying board because I want to say.  This is his 'choice' to not be intimate - I don't know if it's a choice, that's what I'm trying to figure out.  It is BPD or him?  Is there hope of change?  Would this boundary help to spark change?

One of the things that is confusing this conversation is: Are we talking about a relationship between a man and a woman where there is some PD trait present, or are we talking about a relationship where one or both partners have a significant sexual addiction or non-conventional marriage?

This thread is asking about "cold sex" and boundaries in the relationship of the members here - most do not have a partner with a sexual addiction.

I think there is always the hope of change, if both partners love each other and can figure out a way to make those changes. It's true we can only change ourselves first though, and then the circumstances will be altered by our actions.

Lead with heart.  Not power.

Selfishness can kill a relationship. Losing your self in your partner is toxic too.

... .

I know that when my sense who I was got eroded and weak, my capacity to exercise heart was minimal at best.

As to withholding sex, I knew that was a dangerous road to travel on in marriage.

   Why are we thinking these statements need to be mutually exclusive?

Isn't the goal here for most of us to take actions that accomplish all three?

How do we do that?

[vortex of confusion]

It is my understanding that the topic is asking whether or not it is okay to set a boundary that says, "I refuse to have cold sex with you."

I don't see how this is any different than setting a boundary that says "I refuse have conversations that involve name calling."

Or, "I refuse to stand there and let you hit me."

Or, "I refuse to let you tell me what to do."

I don't think it matters what kind of relationship is being discussed. The same principles apply no matter what kind of relationship is at play. One partner wants something that violates the mental/physical/emotional well being of the other partner. It is up to the person that feels violated to figure out how to set and enforce a boundary that is in line with his/her values. Why does the fact that the topic is sex seem to change how it is approached?

Boundaries are about us and how to use them to protect ourselves. I have been rereading the Boundaries workshop to try to figure out why it isn't okay to set a boundary that says "I refuse to have cold sex" as long as the person has taken into consideration some of the points mentioned in that workshop at: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0

Defending Boundaries   Even when we live our values responsibly,  we can still encounter boundary busting.

When this happens, we should first challenge ourselves.   Counter-intuitive, I know.  <1> Did we make choices that were inconsistent with our independent core values?  If so, which was wrong, the value or the choice?  Do we need to change one?  <2> Have we been consistent in our actions and effective in our communications?  Or have we been sending a mixed message?  Do we need to dedicate the time and effort to clean this up (this takes time)?

We also need to look at all the options(s) we have to available to us to help us navigate back and stay true to our value.  I use the plural form of option because just saying "no" and taking timeout is not enough. Yes, it helps greatly in the moment, but if we are in a value hostile environment, we need to look at all the ways we can address that.

_______________________________

Workshop Objectives  The key discussion points around values / boundaries are:

Do I know which values are important to maintain my independence, autonomy, safety?

Do I know which values need to be yielded and compromised in order to have a relationship?

What are legitimate / fair values (vs selfish values)?

Do I know how to set limits in a constructive loving way?

How do I  know the tricks and traps? (what not to do)?

How do I handle it if someone is upset or hurt by my values/boundaries?

How do I reestablish a value that I failed to protect in the past?

How do I respond when someone is trying to violate or test my value/boundaries?

Why do I feel guilty or afraid when I consider defending boundaries?

[Notwendy]

Maybe I need to clarify what I mean by witholding. It isn't the same as setting a healthy boundary or saying no. It's using sex as a weapon. To me, it is the epitome of fighting dirty, and hitting someone in the place where they are the most  vulnerable. Witholding sex to me is like using the ST on someone but even more powerful.

A boundary is establishing what you want sex to be, and what you feel is abusive to you. In a healthy relationship, I imagine this is part of respecting each other. Saying "no" to your spouse in the event that you are tired, not feeling well, on occasion is to me a normal part of a long term relationship. Not everyone is always available all the time. However, the intent of this is not to punish, harm, pay back, make the other person feel bad. The intent of setting a boundary or saying no under these circumstances is to take care of yourself when you need to.

The intent of purposeful withdrawing is for the effect it has on your partner, and none of it is good. The person witholding has intent to harm, be in contol, punish, get the upper hand, just like someone uses the ST. Both are destructive to intimacy.

When my H made a case for wanting unemotional sex, my first consideration as his wife, the person who loved him, was to give him what he wanted. I felt that not might do more damage. He'd already accused me of "witholding" but this is not something I ever did. I did say no on occasion when I was pregnant and feeling yukky, or tired, but this was about me getting enough rest- and since I was available to him most of the time, I thought he'd understand. However, I don't think he knew the difference and he was the one who used "witholding" on me from time to time, so why wouldn't he assume that I would do that with him?

But I think, I'm like most, thinking that if I gave him what he wanted, maybe he'd give me what I wanted, but it doesn't work that way in a disordered relationship. I didn't know what I was dealing with.

[Skip]

A boundary is establishing what you want sex to be, and what you feel is abusive to you. In a healthy relationship, I imagine this is part of respecting each other. Saying "no" to your spouse in the event that you are tired, not feeling well, on occasion is to me a normal part of a long term relationship. Not everyone is always available all the time. However, the intent of this is not to punish, harm, pay back, make the other person feel bad. The intent of setting a boundary or saying no under these circumstances is to take care of yourself when you need to.

The intent of purposeful withdrawing is for the effect it has on your partner, and none of it is good. The person withholding has intent to harm, be in control, punish, get the upper hand, just like someone uses the ST. Both are destructive to intimacy.

I think this is right.

We start with values - what we want.  And when its sex in a committed relationship (where other options like affairs and porn/self relief are off the table), this is a generally an "interdependent" value - shared value - not a unilateral value. Something you define as a couple.

A boundary is like a fence around the value that that defines when you are either in or no longer inside the value.

So if the value is a healthy robust sexual relationship core - how do the two of you define it?  The husband may say 14 times a month - the wife might say 10.  So maybe its 12.  The wife might say dinner and candles. The husband might say quickies in the morning. So a compromise is reached. 

And the boundary may relate to all the reasonable protective things - no rough sex - no sickness or exhaustion - no observer, etc.

The important thing is that it everyone knows what to expect, the power as is gone, you're working together.

Its a nice simple model and it works when everyone leads with heart... .

So what happens when it starts to break down?

How do we honor th value, and stay in bounds?

[Crumbling]

Funny twist of events... .since BPDh has read the Intimacy Anorexia article, he's been supppppper affectionate, caring, kind... .I think he's rebelling against the notion that this could be him.  I'm lapping it up  

So this boundary needs to be set carefully, and with a clear knowledge of intent to heal the r/s.

[Skip]

So this boundary needs to be set carefully, and with a clear knowledge of intent to heal the r/s.

The value.

The focus needs to be on the values- shared.

The boundary is simply defining when it has strayed out bounds. Most of the time you should be operating inland of the parameter fence.

People who think in terms of "setting boundaries" they are often using psycho-speak to say to say "ultimatum".

[vortex of confusion]

Maybe I need to clarify what I mean by witholding. It isn't the same as setting a healthy boundary or saying no. It's using sex as a weapon. To me, it is the epitome of fighting dirty, and hitting someone in the place where they are the most  vulnerable. Witholding sex to me is like using the ST on someone but even more powerful.

I like that distinction. Because of my own values, guilt, etc, setting a healthy boundary to protect myself feels like withholding. It feels like I am being mean to my spouse. That isn't my intent but that is how it feels.

That is where it might be helpful to look at those questions in the boundaries workshop.

[Notwendy]

Skip, arriving at a healthy agreement- my needs, your needs, is something that requires two healthy people. With someone with a PD, any such agreement: my chores, your chores, my money, your money, our money, all of it is difficult because one is dealing with a moving target- fluctuating emotions.

I could look at my H, square in the face and say "honey, I love you, but I have a bladder infection" ( I keep using this example because it is so obviously something that is temporary, treated, but a "time out" sexually situation- it is most often caused by being sexually active, not abstinent, so clearly, sex happened, now it's time out. It is also not personal at all, and not a rejection in any way).

So I can tell him, factually ( like I have to every time) that this is not about him, that it isn't forever, and it will get better. It also isn't frequent thankfully.

One hour later, it's as if I never said it. He makes a pass, I say no, he's raging screaming at me. Other times, I think we have an agreement, only to find out later that he didn't hear me, or thought I said something else, or just forgot about it.

[Skip]

Skip, arriving at a healthy agreement- my needs, your needs, is something that requires two healthy people. With someone with a PD, any such agreement: my chores, your chores, my money, your money, our money, all of it is difficult because one is dealing with a moving target- fluctuating emotions.

I could look at my H, square in the face and say "honey, I love you, but I have a bladder infection" ( I keep using this example because it is so obviously something that is temporary, treated, but a "time out" sexually situation- it is most often caused by being sexually active, not abstinent, so clearly, sex happened, now it's time out. It is also not personal at all, and not a rejection in any way).

So I can tell him, factually ( like I have to every time) that this is not about him, that it isn't forever, and it will get better. It also isn't frequent thankfully.

One hour later, it's as if I never said it. He makes a pass, I say no, he's raging screaming at me. Other times, I think we have an agreement, only to find out later that he didn't hear me, or thought I said something else, or just forgot about it.

I live in this world too.  

With a mature person this is far easier than with an impulsive. And if you have a severe boundary breaker it takes time and perseverance - progress is measured in inches.

But isn't this the arena we want to be working in - no matter how flawed.

pwBPD work best in structure.  Structure works best with a carrot and a wip.

A wip alone is just a battle weapon.

Both sides can be really wounded when the other side says no as in:

 not tonight - rejection

 no, I don't care about your bladder infection - violation.

The good part of sex is about sharing right? The bad part is ignoring each others needs.  

How do we come back around to the good part without incurring wounds.

[Notwendy]

You got me on that one. Bladder infection is a good example because it has nothing to do with the other person and it is non negotiable. It's painful - and someone that uncomfortable isn't going to give in, be persuaded. "Tired" can be mixed with rejection . One could think that if the other person really wanted to, then they might.

I know that rejection hurts which is why most of the time I don't say no- even if I'm tired - because it's just an awful situation if I do. However, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if it hurts to even go to the bathroom that sex is not going to be enjoyable. Yes there are alternatives but who wants to do that when you feel bad and know you are doing it just to keep the peace.

Yes it would be nice if he understood but if that were the case it wouldn't be an issue.

[Crumbling]

We start with values - what we want.  And when its sex in a committed relationship (where other options like affairs and porn/self relief are off the table), this is a generally an "interdependent" value - shared value - not a unilateral value. Something you define as a couple.

So if the value is a healthy robust sexual relationship core - how do the two of you define it?  The husband may say 14 times a month - the wife might say 10.  So maybe its 12.  The wife might say dinner and candles. The husband might say quickies in the morning. So a compromise is reached. 

The important thing is that it everyone knows what to expect, the power as is gone, you're working together.

I get it.  This is the issue for us, we have no shared value on what defines our sexual r/s.  The key here is compromise, and he wont.  So how do we define our shared values.  What would the conversation entail... .we have conversations that are left with an understanding and then just as quick forgotten, and that's the issue we are dealing with I guess.  There is no capacity for compromise.  So how do we move forward?

[Cat Familiar]

I've seen a lot of posts about ED and claims that women are always ready for sex, but in my experience, it certainly isn't true and is yet another form of misogyny. Other than me, I don't think any woman has mentioned in this thread that sex (even without a bladder infection) can be downright painful. This is particularly true after menopause, regardless of lubricants.

To think that I should be ready for sex whenever my partner wishes is downright infuriating. Fortunately he is a very understanding man and doesn't pressure me. But I felt that I should bring this up for discussion because there are issues in younger women where sex can be painful too. This is often not on a man's radar, so fellows, please know that refusal sometimes happens for reasons that are not necessarily about you.

[Crumbling]

I would also say that my BPDh doesn't force me.  He pressures me, he coaxes me, he makes it clear what he wants, and I either go with it or dont, the choice has always been mine, and if I want to stop mid-sex he would also never force me to continue.  He would complain, and not forget, for a really long time, but never force me.

My issue, sometimes, is saying yes, when maybe I should be saying no, because of what I'm feeling in my heart and what's going on emotionally for me that I tend to ignore... .hence needing to be reminded of our right to choose.  This would be my lack of boundary... .the boundary that I'd like to set.


And Cat, while I was suffering from my health issue, sex WAS painful.  I said no a lot through that period.  He also masturbated profusely, and drank himself to sleep every night.  So I'm glad we're not still there!  Now is different, and that's likely part of my problem with all this now... .now, sex feels FABULOUS!  without my baddy in my belly any more.  And I am really frustrated that he wont 'make the best of it' and do things that would be good for me... .oh, I think I'm blushing... .

[Notwendy]

My H doesn't force it either. However, he can rage, or "pay me back" by the ST, or rejecting me the next time, or talk me into thinking that it's "normal" for women to be available and want sex all the time or some such idea. He also thinks that if he can talk me into it, that means he's really special. His argument would be that no matter how I am feeling, I wouldn't turn down a handsome actor that all women swoon over, so I should feel like that about him.

Yes, OK, I might think an actor on TV is gorgeous- like every other woman on the planet, but I know quite well that what is on the TV is not real and that a relationship with that person would not be like in the movies.

It's frustrating to think that to him, anytime I say "no" means I am rejecting him and trying to hurt him. I really don't have intentions to hurt him.

[sweetheart]

Hello crumbling,

I come late to this thread and frustrated as I wrote an essay last night in responses to a lot of what was being discussed on here. I then got logged out and lost my post

So I'm going to try again but shorter because it takes me so long to construct a response, I am way better talking than writing.

Anyway I was wondering can you reframe your approach to intimacy with your SO? By this I mean can you reach out to him to connect just in that moment and accept that this is how things are for him today ? Can you leave behind yesterday and tomorrow and make allowances for the possibility that this is all he can manage in this moment, that he is doing the best that he can ?  I don't mean that you have to suddenly park up any sadness or anger you may have around loss of intimacy in a conventional sense, but could these be dealt with elsewhere, T perhaps?

I suppose the thread got me thinking about how I have come to learn to accept how my h is in any given moment of time, I used to be waiting for him to be someone different, maybe better, more well, more like he was, more like I wanted him to be and so on. I was so traumatised by the impact of this mental illness upon our lives at one point I forgot what it really means for the person with this illness. Once the idealisation phase became infiltrated by reality for my h intimacy became for us a fluid ever changing affair. My h is intimately very immature, so I was struck by your comment about your h initiating sex with. ' I'm horny' my h does this and I have come to realise it is going to be difficult to move beyond this level of seduction. So I search and introduce intimacy into other aspects of our lives that don't involve sex. We used to watch a lot of movies together and always held hands, movie watching is rare now as his concentration is poor, but I still reach out for his hand, sometimes I just touch my fingers to his. I put my around him when he is asleep, I ask him to have a cup of tea with me and touch my foot to his. When I am driving he has always held my knee for the entire time we have been together.

For me looking to introduce or accept intimacy in other areas of our marriage helped me come to terms with the difficulties that my h experiences in relation to a 'usual' physical relationship. It's not that I accept less, it's that I understand and accept more and this takes the pressure of expectation away from him which has in the past triggered feelings of shame and then he withdraws completely.

I have changed my definition of sex and intimacy within a relationship with someone who had BPD because if I didn't I wouldn't be able to stay with my h. I choose to be the one who reaches out to him because I can see how difficult that is for him to do. If he rejects me that's ok and then off we go again.

So of course it is right to say no to sex if you are not 'in the mood' or feel unwell. Remember though that this will probably trigger rejection for a pwBPD so then we get to put all the usual skills and tools in place to deal with any fallout, just like we would with any other issue, rages, finances and so on. We get to be the constant, reliable regular partner that will help our SO's find their way back from their chaos.

And perhaps when your h initiates sex next time with his signature seduction style maybe just maybe it could be possible to accept that he really is doing the best that he can do in that given moment. So the choice is then yours to take his hand or decline with love until next time.

[Skip]

--- Crossed with post above ---

Have you considered the dynamics of emotional blackmail being at play here - fear, obligation, and guilt?

I'm not suggesting that your husbands are blackmailing you, but rather that your feeling those same dynamics - fear, obligation, and guilt.

We have an article on the site that talks about how to process these feelings and it might help to discus this here (can't link - using a phone)

It might also help to look at what is going on in the male mind too. Things can evolve in the relationship so that the man is struggling with rejection sensitivity and humiliation at the very point at which he is looking for validation and appreciation.  In other words, he is on the other side of the bed struggling with something as significant as the woman.  In some cases, more so.

Resolving all of this takes empathy on both sides and finding ways not to trigger the other person. It's a problem in many relationships and it gets worse when the partners withdraw or become intolerant.

It is more of a problem with BPD traits (rejection sensitivity) and NPD traits (ego wound). I suspect it to be even more of a problem with sex addicts as their self esteem rides on the sexual validation.

With "challenged" partners, the burden to resolve this, like everything else, falls disproportionally to the healthier partner.

Tall order.

Anyone relate to this?  

[Notwendy]

Sweetheart, you really are a sweet heart. Your H is lucky to have you. Thanks for your insightful posts.

[Notwendy]

It has taken me a while to see that what my H is dealing with is bigger than what I deal with as far as fear and rejection. It took me a long time because he keeps a cool calm and competent exterior. He also admires pretty actresses on TV. I think that's pretty typical. Stars are stars because they are attractive, so if we turn on the TV, and there is a gorgeous actress on the screen, he might say "wow". Now if he were completely obsessed over them, it might be wierd, but, he's a guy, and he has eyes, so what?

Sometimes I can watch TV with my daughter and we can both laugh at how we think so and so on the screen is good looking. Then we go on to something else.

What I didn't know is that this kind of thing could really inflict a wound on my H, that he's that vulnerable, that saying an actor is good looking is a serious issue to him, even though he can say that about an actress and know he's not threatening our marriage. I didn't think that a person I had a crush on in school years before I met my H would be a threat, but his yearbook picture was triggering. None of this seemed normal to me, but they hurt him.

So yes, every "no" does too, whether there is an explainable reason or not.

[sweetheart]

Aaww Notwendy thank you for that   I was concerned it would make no sense to anyone.  

It's been a long long and very hard road at times and as Skip posted it is a continual work in progress in all areas of our relationship.

Suffice to say that this thread caused me to pause for thought and change the way we managed something in our relationship today and I could see my h felt validated and held by this slight alteration to our daily lives. Who knew   and our day as a family was better for it.

[Notwendy]

Sweetheart, it made perfect sense to me. There were times my H would intitiate something in a way I thought was odd, but I see from your post that it may be his way of doing that. For years, I wished we could have a heart to heart talk, but that isn't something he does, and my attempts to get to that don't work.

Yet he will put his arm around me when we watch TV, and when he is talking about politics, he's sharing something imortant to him ( I don't like politics) but I need to listen to that with an open heart as much as I wish he'd listen to me about feelings.

You are a very wise person.

[sweetheart]

Yes to the post from Skip about the healthier partner. For me in choosing to stay because today I am mentally well and emotionally healthy I accept this as part of my relationship to be the one to reach out with empathy to my h. It sounds like a cliche as I write this but it's not in practice it has become our lives.

[sweetheart]

Notwendy I thought too that I could have those conversations but I realise that for now those conversations are not possible for my h. My h is also interested in world politics and I used to switch off emotionally as it didn't interest me and I realise now that I was shutting him down, allowing us to talk only on my terms. I then thought what if this is his only way to talk to me at the moment, what if this is all he can manage?  So I started listening for the meaning behind the words and also I just sat and listened.

[Notwendy]

Yes, I just recently caught on to the fact that my H expresses his feelings through how he frames a situation and when I take his words literally, I unintentionally invalidate him. I wrote some longer posts about this to Bloomer on her thread about her H being upset with her and expressing his problem with who would pick her up at the airport. That's not the issue.

I learned this recently when my H went on and on about his kid should be driving a truck. That snapped me into defense mode since his kid had just learned to drive a car, and could  not handle a truck. I tried to solve the problem by coming up with a way for H to teach his kid to drive the truck, but H didn't follow through. It was because that wasn't the  issue. The issue was that because he drove, it made him late for work. He volunteered to drive, and was mad at himself. The rest was dysregulation and projection. I also wrote about how I asked him to make a family visit brief because of bad weather and dangerous driving. I thought he understood that, but he felt bad about the short visit and raged at me for being the one to make it short. I spent years taking what he said personally, to heart, and just feeling so bad about why he felt I was doing those things that I never did. I thought I could fix it, but I can't.

All these years I wanted to know what he is feeling. He was telling me all along, but in a different language.

My H is very high functioning, but when it comes to bad feelings, he projects them outward and explains them in ways that are very confusing. I have now learned to listen to the feelings more than the words, and to not jump in and fix what he is raging about, because that isn't usually what he wants.

I thought he was some kind of monster when he is raging. Now, at that moment, he's a little kid, and he thinks I'm the monster.

[vortex of confusion]

--- Crossed with post above ---

Have you considered the dynamics of emotional blackmail being at play here - fear, obligation, and guilt?

I'm not suggesting that your husbands are blackmailing you, but rather that your feeling those same dynamics - fear, obligation, and guilt.

FOG has definitely been at play in my relationship.

Fear: Knowing that if I don't give in, he will be grumpy, will make comments about it, and will be miserable to live with. If I give it to him, then I know that will create peace and he won't feel rejected.

Obligation: All of the talk about it being a partners duty to have sex with a spouse, leads to feelings of obligation. It is my obligation as his wife to have sex with him. It is part of a healthy relationship.

Guilt: I feel bad because I know that he will feel rejected or feel bad because I am not having sex with him. I feel guilty because I am not fulfilling my duties as his wife.

I really want to comment on all of the comments that I hearing that say, "My husband doesn't force me." My husband has never ever forced me to do anything. I have chosen to do the things that I have done. That doesn't mean that my husband hasn't used sexual coercion. A person can be coerced into having sex without force.

I have pulled a couple of quotes from this conversation that are examples of sexual coercion:

My H doesn't force it either. However, he can rage, or "pay me back" by the ST, or rejecting me the next time, or talk me into thinking that it's "normal" for women to be available and want sex all the time or some such idea. He also thinks that if he can talk me into it, that means he's really special. His argument would be that no matter how I am feeling, I wouldn't turn down a handsome actor that all women swoon over, so I should feel like that about him.

I would also say that my BPDh doesn't force me.  He pressures me, he coaxes me, he makes it clear what he wants, and I either go with it or dont, the choice has always been mine, and if I want to stop mid-sex he would also never force me to continue.  He would complain, and not forget, for a really long time, but never force me.

This quote that I pulled is something that tends to feed feelings of guilt. It is assumed that women are always ready. If a woman isn't ready, then that could lead to feelings of guilt for not living up to expectations.

I've seen a lot of posts about ED and claims that women are always ready for sex, but in my experience, it certainly isn't true and is yet another form of misogyny. Other than me, I don't think any woman has mentioned in this thread that sex (even without a bladder infection) can be downright painful. This is particularly true after menopause, regardless of lubricants.

I found a link that gives more information about sexual coercion: www.bandbacktogether.com/sexual-coercion-resources/

Sexual coercion IS a form of abuse.

Something to think about!

[sweetheart]

VOC I don't understand your point about sexual coercion, has this thread said that it isn't abuse ?

Sorry if I'm coming across as obtuse, the issues surely lie with both partners here, both with the disorder in its use of maladaptive behaviour patterns to meet needs and with responses from us to acquiesce through FOG.

[vortex of confusion]

VOC I don't understand your point about sexual coercion, has this thread said that it isn't abuse ?

I have not seen this thread address whether or not it is abuse. I think people have tiptoed around it but I don't think it has been said one way or the other.

Sorry if I'm coming across as obtuse, the issues surely lie with both partners here, both with the disorder in its use of maladaptive behaviour patterns to meet needs and with responses from us to acquiesce through FOG.

Yes, the issue lies with both partners.

If a person is caught up in FOG, then it is going to be that much more difficult to address the issue. I haven't see FOG mentioned much in this thread. I was reviewing the FOG workshop this morning: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0;all

Also, if the situation has been identified as abuse, isn't the first goal to stop the abuse?

I was looking through the tools again and found the Workshop on responding to domestic violence: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61403.0

One of the quotes that stood out was, "Often victims may minimize the abuse or justify the abuse saying things like:

Well I have never been hit not realizing that there are many ways to be abused."

[hergestridge]

I think that anyone living with s pwBPD had been subjected to coercion in so many areas of our lives. Why expect the sex life to be different? I perfectly well why one would want the sex life to be different, for obvious reasons.

My experience is that everything is a fight for a pwBPD, until a different situation has been established. Especially if there is an obvious problem, or even a "complaint".

If you are going to try and establish a situation where there is no guilt-trip, no coaxing, no sulking (i e abuse) before fun-time, then i think you end up with two options:

1. Scheduled sex.

2. Sex with a non BPD person.

Just my two cents on this.

[vortex of confusion]

I think that anyone living with s pwBPD had been subjected to coercion in so many areas of our lives. Why expect the sex life to be different? I perfectly well why one would want the sex life to be different, for obvious reasons.

My experience is that everything is a fight for a pwBPD, until a different situation has been established. Especially if there is an obvious problem, or even a "complaint".

If you are going to try and establish a situation where there is no guilt-trip, no coaxing, no sulking (i e abuse) before fun-time, then i think you end up with two options:

1. Scheduled sex.

2. Sex with a non BPD person.

Are you implying that our only options are to accept the abuse or leave? If the situation were to involve hitting or screaming? What would members be advised to do? Would they be advised to accept it or would they be advised to set boundaries to protect themselves and stop the abuse?

I may be misunderstanding the lessons. There is a lesson on Surviving Confrontation and Disrespect: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206.msg913191#msg913191

Lots of good stuff there!

[hergestridge]

I think that anyone living with s pwBPD had been subjected to coercion in so many areas of our lives. Why expect the sex life to be different? I perfectly well why one would want the sex life to be different, for obvious reasons.

My experience is that everything is a fight for a pwBPD, until a different situation has been established. Especially if there is an obvious problem, or even a "complaint".

If you are going to try and establish a situation where there is no guilt-trip, no coaxing, no sulking (i e abuse) before fun-time, then i think you end up with two options:

1. Scheduled sex.

2. Sex with a non BPD person.

Are you implying that our only options are to accept the abuse or leave? If the situation were to involve hitting or screaming? What would members be advised to do? Would they be advised to accept it or would they be advised to set boundaries to protect themselves and stop the abuse?

I may be misunderstanding the lessons. There is a lesson on Surviving Confrontation and Disrespect: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206.msg913191#msg913191

Lots of good stuff there!

you made a post where you made a definition of abuse very different from "hitting and screaming". And i'm not saying you should accept your BPD partner as he/she is, but it's good to have realistic expectations.

[sweetheart]

For me there is an importance distinction to be made between sexual behaviour that is coercive and sexual behaviour that is emotionally immature, needs led, and lacking intimate finesse.

Again for me any abuse whether it's linked to sex, aggression, ST, swearing or verbal threats when combined with BPD can of course be difficult to move beyond because of FOG and maybe FOO issues. I don't believe it is a separate issue in and of itself as much as it is a part of the disorder for which the skills and tools for dealing with it will be the same.

[vortex of confusion]

you made a post where you made a definition of abuse very different from "hitting and screaming". And i'm not saying you should accept your BPD partner as he/she is, but it's good to have realistic expectations.

I am not defining abuse. I am providing links to information sources that define abuse.

Here is a message that lists all lot of the different types of abuse:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61403.msg580701#msg580701

This isn't about accepting the BPD partner. This is about protecting oneself from abuse. Period.

One cannot accept something that he/she is unwilling to acknowledge. The first step is acknowledging the situation as it is rather than what one wants it to be or wishes it was. This site has lots of really good resources about protecting oneself and dealing with abuse.

[sweetheart]

voc,

That it was the skills, tools and lessons teach us all about how to deal with abusive behaviours in all their forms within the context of a relationship with someone who has BPD.

[vortex of confusion]

For me there is an importance distinction to be made between sexual behaviour that is coercive and sexual behaviour that is emotionally immature, needs led, and lacking intimate finesse.

Exactly! It can be very difficult to tell the difference if one is caught up in FOG.

Initiating by saying "I'm horny" or dangling male parts is immature and annoying but is NOT abusive.

Pressuring a partner to have sex when she is ill (recovering from a bladder infection) and giving the partner the ST because she didn't agree to have sex is abusive.

It is up to each individual to determine which one is being dealt with in the situation. It isn't always easy to tell when things have crossed the line between annoying and immature and abuse.

I have found it helpful to review the articles on Twisted thinking that are found in Lesson 5: Putting it all together.

There is an article on Ten Forms of Twisted Thinking: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56199.0

And its counterpart: Ten Ways to Untwist Your Thinking: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56200.0

I have referred to those articles to help ME identify whether or not I am making more out of a situation than needs to be made or if I am minimizing a situation because I am in denial or caught up in FOG.

When talking about sexual issues in a marriage, it really helps to sit down and journal things so that you can get a better grip on what is really going on. Because this topic relates to sex, there has been a lot of tiptoeing around things.

If my husband says, "We never have sex." but I can sit down and identify that we have sex x number of times in a given period, then I can use that to reassure myself that he is using black and white thinking. If he says "We never have sex." and I sit down and see that we are only doing it once a month, than I can say, "Oh crap, there is definitely some validity to his claim." If I say, "It seems like all we ever have is cold sex.", then I can sit down and try to objectively identify how often it is actually happening. If we have sex every other week and it is only cold one out of three times, then maybe my expectations are skewed a little.

In the article, Ten Forms of Twisted Thinking, it identifies some ways that we mislead ourselves:

2. Overgeneralization - You see a single negative event, such as a romantic rejection or a career reversal, as a never-ending pattern of defeat by using words such as "always" or "never" when you think about it. A depressed salesman became terribly upset when he noticed bird dung on the window of his car. He told himself, "Just my luck! Birds are always crapping on my car!"

3. Mental Filter - You pick out a single negative detail and dwell on it exclusively, so that your vision of reality becomes darkened, like the drop of ink that discolors a beaker of water. Example: You receive many positive comments about your presentation to a group of associates at work, but one of them says something mildly critical. You obsess about his reaction for days and ignore all the positive feedback.

4. Discounting the positive - You reject positive experiences by insisting that they "don't count." If you do a good job, you may tell yourself that it wasn't good enough or that anyone could have done as well. Discounting the positives takes the joy out of life and makes you feel inadequate and unrewarded.

5. Jumping to conclusions - You interpret things negatively when there are no facts to support your conclusion.

I think it is really, really important to make sure that we are not misleading ourselves. In my case, I was misleading myself because I refused to acknowledge that things were as bad as they were. In other people's cases, I think it would be helpful to make sure that that they are not reacting in the opposite direction and making a bigger deal out of this than needs to be made. I don't think I, or anybody else on this site, is capable of identifying that for another person. That is where using the tools and seeing a therapist really helps.

[Crumbling]

I don't feel abused.  I feel neglected, ignored and invalidated, and if you want to define abuse that way, then, you can... .but I do better at looking at why I am allowing myself to let needs go unmet than labelling the situation.  

I feel caught up in a drama I can't find my way out if.  But my BPDh is a very gentle man.  He doesn't share his feelings, and that makes him explosive sometimes.  He's self-abusive more than anything else, and turns anything negative into an excuse to degrade himself.  

The more this comes to light, the farther he falls into self hate.  I am giving him love and comfort when I can but, it is only in the ways I can give, and not in the bedroom.  I just can't.  I'm not going into details, but I am definitely having a physical reaction to the idea of having sex the way we always do.  We need to do some heavy bonding.

, c.

[sweetheart]

I can't remember whether you have a T crumbling or are waiting for one.

Identifying that for you there are issues around your sexual relationship and realising that this is not something you can continue with in this way is really positive. I'm all for us validating ourselves as well as our SO. It can be and I hope it is a healthy starting place for you to redefine what works for you both.

We say it all the time on here that change starts from us.  

[vortex of confusion]

I don't feel abused.  I feel neglected, ignored and invalidated, and if you want to define abuse that way, then, you can... .but I do better at looking at why I am allowing myself to let needs go unmet than labelling the situation.

That is a step in the right direction.

The more this comes to light, the farther he falls into self hate.  I am giving him love and comfort when I can but, it is only in the ways I can give, and not in the bedroom.  I just can't.  I'm not going into details, but I am definitely having a physical reaction to the idea of having sex the way we always do.  We need to do some heavy bonding.

What are you doing for you? Are you giving yourself love and comfort?

Have you identified ways that you can bond outside of the bedroom?

Shining light on any issue is very, very uncomfortable. Seeing your partner deal with negative feelings and self hatred is difficult especially if you feel like you are the cause of those feelings. (Speaking for myself here.)

I know that you are not big on labeling. I am not either. I do know that I was able to distinguish between what was abusive and what was annoying. It wasn't easy but at one point I told my husband that some of his behaviors were abusive/manipulative, especially things like laying on guilt trips when I didn't give him sex. It was very difficult for him to hear. We both went through some really, really dark periods. I didn't feel like I was being abused either. I felt a lot of the same things that you did. I felt neglected, invalidated, and ignored.

My husband is a gentle person too. I know that he isn't going to hurt me on purpose. I can say that he would never deliberately abuse me. I was able to shine light on certain issues by sharing information with him about the more subtle forms of abuse. He hated himself (still does at times) but it gave him an awareness that he didn't previously have. How can anybody fix something if they don't know it is broken?

Now, when he starts pouring on the guilt trips, I can tell him, "I feel manipulated and pressured when you say that." Sometimes he takes it okay and sometimes he doesn't. I can validate his desire for sex but I can also set a boundary and not let him say and do things that are coercive/abusive.

[Skip]

One cannot accept something that he/she is unwilling to acknowledge. The first step is acknowledging the situation as it is rather than what one wants it to be or wishes it was. This site has lots of really good resources about protecting oneself and dealing with abuse.

So are you saying that you feel punished by the silent treatment which you feel rises to the level of abuse (going back a few posts)?

Are you saying that a cooperative solution is a bit out of reach and you need something more forceful?

And are you saying you want to use boundaries - specifically "I will not accept _______" - to protect yourself?

Can you desribe what it is that you want from this "boundary action"? Are you feeling that you want to fight back? Do you want to do something that will teach him a lesson?  :)o you want something that gives you empowerment?

An example might make this clearer.

Can you role play a scenario where your partner wants to have relations and you have a bladder infection - showing how it would work - how he hopefully will respond?

[vortex of confusion]

So are you saying that you feel punished by the silent treatment which you feel rises to the level of abuse (going back a few posts)?

Yes, I have felt punished by my husband's behaviors and actions. In a very recent incident, he was posting online ads looking for women because he was lonely at work. This followed me setting down a boundary about him not calling/messaging/texting me so much during the day. It wasn't said directly, but I felt like I was being punished for not talking to him so much during the day. He has done this with sex as well. If I go too long without taking care of him, he turns into a real jerk. As soon as I take care of him, he is suddenly super nice and has a sunny outlook and thinks that everything is great and wonderful again.

Are you saying that a cooperative solution is a bit out of reach and you need something more forceful?

Right now, we are able to work more cooperatively. It took a lot of time to get where we are right now. When I started on this path, there was little or no cooperation on his part. I felt like everything I said fell on deaf ears. Or, we would have these really long talks that felt great and wonderful and he would acknowledged stuff and we would talk about solutions. After the discussion ended, nothing changed. I would hold up my end of the deal but he would not follow through and would act confused as to why I was doing something different.

And are you saying you want to use boundaries - specifically "I will not accept _______" - to protect yourself?

Yes! That is exactly what I am saying. One specific boundary that I implemented was, "I will not accept that the only way to get you excited is to talk about being with another man." I did it to protect myself because the whole thing left me feeling very dirty and used.

Can you desribe what it is that you want from this "boundary action"?

I do not want to be pressured to talk about or do things that make me uncomfortable. I want to be able to choose to have sex without doing it because I am responding due to FOG. I want to give myself to my husband in a sexual manner without the fear, obligation, and guilt getting in the way.

Are you feeling that you want to fight back?

I don't want to fight back. I want to stop the fighting and disagreements that have occurred around sex. I want my husband to want me in a way that does not leave me feeling abused, neglected, or ignored.

Do you want to do something that will teach him a lesson?

I have no desire to teach him a lesson. This is about ME, not him. I want to find a way that we can have a sexual relationship that is mutually satisfying to both of us.

Do you want something that gives you empowerment?

Yes, I want to feel like I am in control of my own body. I want to feel like my body belongs to me and that I can make choices about what I do with my body without being afraid of having to face possible consequences for making those choices.

Can you role play a scenario where your partner wants to have relations and you have a bladder infection - showing how it would work?

I am not sure how to role play this. In my case, he would probably be okay with me saying no in the moment. The problem for me comes later when he is grumbling about and complaining about not getting any. I think that is one of the really difficult things with trying to set boundaries around relations. It is the pressure and stuff that happens outside of the bedroom that really makes it difficult to figure out how to address it with something like a boundary.

[Crumbling]

I said no this morning.  He has been picking at me, pointing out faults, got mad about something I did seven years ago, anyway, you get the drill.  

A few minutes ago I asked him once again to stop picking on me, and finally just said, I get it, I was wrong, I said no to sex and that is not allowed in this house, now just stop punishing me and move on.  He's been quite withdrawn ever since.

I still haven't gotten my back rub.   :'( But I'm not making things worse... .dont think... .

blessings,

c.

[Grey Kitty]

The more this comes to light, the farther he falls into self hate.  I am giving him love and comfort when I can but, it is only in the ways I can give, and not in the bedroom.  I just can't.  I'm not going into details, but I am definitely having a physical reaction to the idea of having sex the way we always do.

If you feel you can't... .If you would feel harmed... .then saying no is the right thing for you to do.

And your husband did honor your refusal. He gets some credit for that. I wish he had been able to do it nicely, instead of the way he did.

He's been quite withdrawn ever since.

How did you say no?

Did he react immediately, or did his being difficult start later in the day?

[Crumbling]

Here's what went down:

He said, can we have sex today.

I said, I'd love to, but I don't know if I can.  If we did something intimate first it may help get me there, like that nice back rub, wink, wink.

He got upset and started going on how he has to jump through hoops before he can get anything. 

... .

I gave him full permission to masturbate and even left to let him do his thing.  Once he was done, he came in the room I was in looking like a scared little boy.  I held him, told him I was sorry, told him we could hug and cuddle now.  He just wanted to sleep.  I gave him about an hour to himself again, then came up to cuddle with him.  He got out of bed mad that I was 'disturbing' him. and it just went on from there.  At that point, I was completely painted black.

... .

He is really holding back, or so it feels.  Three times through the day he said 'do you want your back rub now' and I answered, 'I have never stopped wanted it, love, anytime you feel ready.' 

Still nothing. See, I don't push him, I give him the option, and he rejects it.

... .

Last night, laying in bed, I asked him if it was intentional, and said, I would understand if it was, I just want to know.  He said because I'm a selfish pr!ck.  I just said, that's what I was afraid of... .I couldn't say no, he is being a selfish jerk!  This may have been hurtful to him, but after many hours of being picked on, I'd had enough.

... .

[123Phoebe]

This may have already been addressed within this thread... .

If the "whole" of the relationship is wobbly and unsteady, then it stands to reason that the sexual aspect will be also.  Intimacy has to be created, not demanded, and for me, for us, it starts way outside the realms of the bedroom... .

In what ways are we creating a safe place for ourselves as well as our partners?

Rejection stinks, I know the feeling first hand; we went through some trying times way back when... . I was focusing too much on "sex" bringing us or keeping us closer together, when what we really needed to build up was a foundation of trust and intimacy aside from sex, with sex clinching the deal.

Abuse in any form should never be tolerated.  But then, why does this feel abusive?  Is it because the rest of the relationship doesn't feel quite safe?  So the sex we're experiencing is reflecting the "whole" of the relationship, which might have an element of emptiness or unfulfillment?

Anytime I've focused too hard on one particular thing, there's usually a host of other issues leading up to it, i.e., can't see the forest for the trees.

Create don't debate

[Skip]

Here's what went down:

He said, can we have sex today.

I said, I'd love to, but I don't know if I can.  If we did something intimate first it may help get me there, like that nice back rub, wink, wink.

He got upset and started going on how he has to jump through hoops before he can get anything.  

I'm not sure it is helpful to see this as what went down today - although I greatly appreciate your frustration.

You both came to the day with "triggers" and before the day was over, set each other off.

This problem didn't occur in a day and it is not going to resolve in a day.

This is a cycle of conflict - it takes a real effort to stop the cycle.

[Crumbling]

  , thank you all for the input.  I agree, this present situation IS an accumulation of years of facing this issue.  We both have bad habits, and I am hoping that there is light on the other side of the tunnel if we can eliminate the bad habits and move forward.

This has become an extinction burst, I think.  Just to update you, I eliminated a key 'favourite' sexual activity of his about three months ago.  Sex has been a roller coaster ever since.  I haven't made this activity a NEVER AGAIN thing... .just simply that I'm not in a place where I can do this now, I'm not emotionally strong enough.  (I was molested as a child, and what happened then is the same thing he wants.  I'm okay with it in small doses, but he has taken advantage of this generosity... .he has admitted it... .for a long while.) 

He has been trying to respect my requests, but just like what I described in this last situation, his 'trying' is very trying on me... .I do acknowledge that he is respecting my requests and I do give him affection for doing so. 

He moves into totally rejecting any affection at all, off and on, a lot over these past few months.  Like he is taking away what I want because I 'took away' what he wants.  It did come to a head very late last night, which I didn't have time to get to earlier.

Anyway, after we started that help me understand conversation last night, I just then said that it was too bad it wasn't something he had control over, because maybe then, we would have a chance.  He hummed and hawed, I did too.  He said I'm going to try harder.  I started pouring out confirmations, I love you, I want to be with you, I am not planning a great escape, or seeking out other men,... .on and on and I ended with 'and if it takes me living somewhere else for the two of us to get healthier, I am willing and able to do it, because I need to stop doing what we are doing now.  Because right now, when you 'try', I get hurt."    No one said anything for a while, then we shared our normal good nights.

It's hard to tell, because I only saw him for a short while this morning, but he may have been kicked back into regulated by this conversation. 

I just want everyone here to know that I would not have the courage to face this without your support and guidance.  I am so grateful.     

c.

[Turkish]

We're going to close this thread.  We left it open well past the 6 page limit because it was a very good conversation - reaching into some very difficult areas.  It had some tense moments, but everyone came together in the end.

Good efforts.