I Finally Made Her Aware of the Financial Ramifications of Abandoning the House

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

STBx moved out Aug 1, 2017. At that time I was entitled to 17% of her income as SS19 was under my roof. I didn't do anything about it, figuring I was going to be able to find more gainful employment and supplement any shortfalls in expenses with occasional withdrawals from my 401K. Horrendous idea, I know, but I was hoping to be able to avoid rousing the beast and solve my financial woes by my own means.

A while back JNChell had asked me what was the price of my freedom. I guess it was $981/mo., or so I thought by not pushing for that support I was keeping things relatively peaceful.

This week my financial advisor hit the roof when I asked for the latest infusion of cash. He basically woke me up to the reality that these withdrawals were not a sustainable way for me to live and really not accessible to me any more as I am risking his licensure given how bad a move this is to constantly be making.

Thus, I finally sent STBx the following email:

STBx,

Shortly after you abandoned the house on Aug 1, 2017, I spoke to my divorce attorney about the general lay of the land and that you wanted an easy-peasy divorce. I keep the equity in the house, my 401k, write off all the AMEX and VISA/MC debt via bankruptcy, etc. Simple like we had discussed. This would be no problem to get written up and moved forward, if that's still how you would like to proceed.

However, you should know that according to my attorney, who is Mr. L by the way, the guy who wrote up my living will when we first got married, I am entitled to anywhere between $900-$1000/mo (17% of your income minus FICA) in child support for SS19 until he is 21.

I knew about this many, many months ago, and didn't act on it to try and keep the peace, function as "normally" as possible as a family, and not add anymore misery to your already full personal and work plates given your trials and tribulations with the place you moved to and your job.

So, given that I have been having an impossibly hard time making ends meet and that ransacking my 401k isn't an option anymore, and that I am legally, no questions asked, entitled to receive $900-$1000/mo from you to support SS19, I will need to file a support petition fairly soon.

I thought you should know this so you are not blindsided by this after you got settled in (Northeast).

There are several ways this can all play out... .

1) You move to (NE) and pay me $981/mo in support for SS19 while he is living under my roof.

2) You move to (NE) and pay me a negotiated amount in support for SS19 while he is living under my roof.

3) You move to (NE) with SS19 (and SD22, if you like) and owe me nothing and I owe you nothing.

4) You move into my house and pay me the mortgage, utilities, water, sanitation, and cable/Internet as those bills come due (or you put everything other than the mortgage in your name and take responsibility for paying me the rent and those other payments on your own). During this time, I will give you credit for the accumulated money paid toward the principal of the mortgage which is amounting to $375/mo. right now and you will get this back at the time of sale of the house should it indeed be sold. At the same time, I will not be legally bound to pay you child support. We can however negotiate a reasonable amount for me to contribute to raising SS19 and any reasonable extra expenses such as clothes, school and school supplies, etc.

5) You buy the house from me at fair market value (minus exterior repairs and the like that devalue the house) and take over all financial responsibilities for the house and utilities, sanitation, etc. I would not be looking to get rich off you or anything. I need to get into a cheaper living arrangement and you need a place to call home that perhaps you turn into rental income if you so choose and we can win-win here.

If there are other options I have not thought of here, please send them over. Again, I'm just trying to layout all scenarios here so we can move forward as well as possible.

Jeffree

I thought this was a clearly and reasonably worded letter considerately timed before she made an actual move to (NE), which would have made it impossible for her to make ends meet if she had to pay me support.

Her solution was to tell me she would be moving back in on a roommate basis. 

I told her that is not viable and that I am not legally compelled to allow her to do so despite the fact that her children are living under my roof. I added that if she showed up at the house expecting to move in that I would have her arrested for trespassing.

As I suspected, she was here when I got home on Friday and tried to bully SS19 into moving with her and crabbing at me for using her kids against her and putting them in the middle of this, calling me a Narcissist, passive-aggressive, jealous of her success, etc. She was lashing out at me as I suspected she would, which is why I was trying to avoid this all along. It makes my head spin when she goes full hatred and drama at me like this. It also makes me feel like a failure, because some of that crap does seep into the ol' noggin and heart.

I guess she just figured she was entitled to another free ride on my back, and why should she not have thought that seeing as it's what I have been giving her all along.

I believe the short-term solution will look something along the lines of the kids paying me rent and STBx taking over a couple of their bills such as adding the kids to her cell phone plan and putting their car insurances in her name. Plus, I am hoping to rent out a room in the house. But man this was a sucky few days.

I feel terrible that I can't provide for myself and the kids on my own, but I just haven't been able to appropriately employ myself for almost two years now.

J

[Jeffree]

STBx moved out Aug 1, 2017. At that time I was entitled to 17% of her income as SS19 was under my roof. I didn't do anything about it, figuring I was going to be able to find more gainful employment and supplement any shortfalls in expenses with occasional withdrawals from my 401K. Horrendous idea, I know, but I was hoping to be able to avoid rousing the beast and solve my financial woes by my own means.

A while back JNChell had asked me what was the price of my freedom. I guess it was $981/mo., or so I thought by not pushing for that support I was keeping things relatively peaceful.

This week my financial advisor hit the roof when I asked for the latest infusion of cash. He basically woke me up to the reality that these withdrawals were not a sustainable way for me to live and really not accessible to me any more as I am risking his licensure given how bad a move this is to constantly be making.

Thus, I finally sent STBx the following email:

STBx,

Shortly after you abandoned the house on Aug 1, 2017, I spoke to my divorce attorney about the general lay of the land and that you wanted an easy-peasy divorce. I keep the equity in the house, my 401k, write off all the AMEX and VISA/MC debt via bankruptcy, etc. Simple like we had discussed. This would be no problem to get written up and moved forward, if that's still how you would like to proceed.

However, you should know that according to my attorney, who is Mr. L by the way, the guy who wrote up my living will when we first got married, I am entitled to anywhere between $900-$1000/mo (17% of your income minus FICA) in child support for SS19 until he is 21.

I knew about this many, many months ago, and didn't act on it to try and keep the peace, function as "normally" as possible as a family, and not add anymore misery to your already full personal and work plates given your trials and tribulations with the place you moved to and your job.

So, given that I have been having an impossibly hard time making ends meet and that ransacking my 401k isn't an option anymore, and that I am legally, no questions asked, entitled to receive $900-$1000/mo from you to support SS19, I will need to file a support petition fairly soon.

I thought you should know this so you are not blindsided by this after you got settled in (Northeast).

There are several ways this can all play out... .

1) You move to (NE) and pay me $981/mo in support for SS19 while he is living under my roof.

2) You move to (NE) and pay me a negotiated amount in support for SS19 while he is living under my roof.

3) You move to (NE) with SS19 (and SD22, if you like) and owe me nothing and I owe you nothing.

4) You move into my house and pay me the mortgage, utilities, water, sanitation, and cable/Internet as those bills come due (or you put everything other than the mortgage in your name and take responsibility for paying me the rent and those other payments on your own). During this time, I will give you credit for the accumulated money paid toward the principal of the mortgage which is amounting to $375/mo. right now and you will get this back at the time of sale of the house should it indeed be sold. At the same time, I will not be legally bound to pay you child support. We can however negotiate a reasonable amount for me to contribute to raising SS19 and any reasonable extra expenses such as clothes, school and school supplies, etc.

5) You buy the house from me at fair market value (minus exterior repairs and the like that devalue the house) and take over all financial responsibilities for the house and utilities, sanitation, etc. I would not be looking to get rich off you or anything. I need to get into a cheaper living arrangement and you need a place to call home that perhaps you turn into rental income if you so choose and we can win-win here.

If there are other options I have not thought of here, please send them over. Again, I'm just trying to layout all scenarios here so we can move forward as well as possible.

Jeffree

I thought this was a clearly and reasonably worded letter considerately timed before she made an actual move to (NE), which would have made it impossible for her to make ends meet if she had to pay me support.

Her solution was to tell me she would be moving back in on a roommate basis. 

I told her that is not viable and that I am not legally compelled to allow her to do so despite the fact that her children are living under my roof. I added that if she showed up at the house expecting to move in that I would have her arrested for trespassing.

As I suspected, she was here when I got home on Friday and tried to bully SS19 into moving with her and crabbing at me for using her kids against her and putting them in the middle of this, calling me a Narcissist, passive-aggressive, jealous of her success, etc. She was lashing out at me as I suspected she would, which is why I was trying to avoid this all along. It makes my head spin when she goes full hatred and drama at me like this. It also makes me feel like a failure, because some of that crap does seep into the ol' noggin and heart.

I guess she just figured she was entitled to another free ride on my back, and why should she not have thought that seeing as it's what I have been giving her all along.

I believe the short-term solution will look something along the lines of the kids paying me rent and STBx taking over a couple of their bills such as adding the kids to her cell phone plan and putting their car insurances in her name. Plus, I am hoping to rent out a room in the house. But man this was a sucky few days.

I feel terrible that I can't provide for myself and the kids on my own, but I just haven't been able to appropriately employ myself for almost two years now.

J

[lighthouse9]

Hey Jeffree,

I just wanted to pop in and send support. I'm sure this was extremely difficult and felt like you were kicking the bees nest, and sure enough, you had a swarm waiting for you when you got home. I'm sorry you have to keep retraumatizing yourself with stuff like this, but good for you for attempting to hold her accountable. It sounds like you didn't get exactly what you wanted, but you might get some accountability out of her.

I keep reminding myself of the same thing in this process - stand up for what I need, and be ready to accept less. I did the same as you in the beginning, tried to just go about this on my own mostly and I limited any convos about financial obligations to times when I could trust she was in a good place. Since I've moved, things may get more difficult now to hold her accountable and I have some of the same fears of waking up something difficult.

How are you doing since all of this went down? Even when we are legally on solid grounds, it doesn't make this stuff emotionally easier.

[Jeffree]

How are you doing since all of this went down? Even when we are legally on solid grounds, it doesn't make this stuff emotionally easier.

Thanks for the support L9!

My head is still spinning and I feel like I am on unsure ground. I have gotten wind of her odd interpretation of her legal responsibility through SD22 and that she doesn't have to pay me support if SS19 isn't in school. I looked up the issue in my state and nowhere does it say this.

"Both parents must financially support their child until the child turns 21 years old." This is the first paragraph. There is nothing about school being a stipulation.

You know what it is, L9? I have spent so long being brow beaten by her; having my feelings, thoughts, and experiences invalidated; trying to take the high road only to be pooped on anyway, that my natural mental state around her is to question my sanity and reality, and I always leave exhausted.

In reality, about the only thing I can see her trying to make an issue is my parental rights seeing as I am not the kids' biological dad. However, their bio dad passed away back in 2007 before we even married, so I don't see how that could be in doubt.

But that's neither here nor there. The point is why would a parent who abandoned the marital home leaving her bio kids behind not feel the least bit responsible for their welfare and the welfare of the home in which they live? She will invest more time, energy and money fighting a losing battle trying to take down the man who is sheltering her kids than doing anything the least bit just, moral, and fair for their best interests.

One scenario she posed the other day is just having SS19 move with her to (NE). So, here I am thinking, OK... .that would leave me in this same financial pickle, not be anywhere near in his best interests, and my heart sank. But then a couple of days later (yes, it took that long; that's how out of sorts I get with her) I realized that's about the most illegal thing a parent with joint custody could do in this situation... .basically kidnap him.

Just the thought that I have to think of responses to such things is sickening, but I have no other choice right now.

J

[ForeverDad]

I doubt that you could be required to provide support for your step children, well, maybe if you had legally adopted them.

They're both adults.  I'm not saying to kick them out but are they able to financially and emotionally fend for themselves?

I'll comment on what I know best.  That's your long explanatory email.  Yes, it all makes logical sense.  But odds are it will be rebutted, opposed or, as happened in your case, the response is totally unexpected, not even one of the options listed.  I tried that with my ex.  Problem is, she had stopped letting me reason with her a year or two before we separated.  Neither separation nor divorce improved the situation.  She just had too much emotional baggage about me, having been the closest person in her life for so many years.  And yes, BPD traits are more evident in the closer relationships.

[Jeffree]

Her latest hair-brained scheme is to force SS19 out of the marital house and into a $600-$800/mo. apt of his own that she will pay about $500/mo toward (thereby avoiding paying me anything).

Aside from the obvious that anything she thinks they can afford for $600-$800/mo would be pretty unsavory and in an unsafe part of town, require a couple of months security deposit and first month's rent, then come with utility, cable/internet, and other ancillary expenses that she could just pay me toward keeping him in his childhood home... .I am pretty sure it's quite illegal to do this when I share custody and have a say in the execution of this plan.

Look, in the end, the stepkids and I will get by with or without her help. I am just trying to compel her to do what's right and fair.

J

[ForeverDad]

I really appreciate you doing your best for the stepkids.  They're not The Problem.  I'm sure you know that your offer makes sense if you're laying the groundwork for professionals to review and note that it is exceedingly reasonable.  Just not in her worldview.

I recall another issue that I had with my ex.  One time at an exchange I mentioned an upcoming exchange, I think it was due to holiday exchanges being so close to weekend exchanges.  She was almost on the verge of telling me to just keep him the next time around.  Silly me, I saw her dithering around and I offered two options, both more fair to her than what she was pondering.  Well, she got huffy and said "I'll just keep him!"  Eventually it got resolved but I learned a lesson then.  Offering options made so much sense but made things worse, triggering her.  Or maybe she just had to trash any suggestions I made, common sense being overshadowed by her emotional baggage...

That's why I wrote above that your extensive offers make more sense to professionals who may review it later than to her.

[ozmatoz]

Jeffree, good for you for finally sticking up for yourself and step kids on this issue.

ForeverDad has a good point in that offering any options whatsoever could be a trigger.  They automatically feel like whatever you are proposing is something out to get them, not take care of the bigger picture so all involved (including her) are taken care of fairly.

With my divorce filing I proposed an overly fair temporary orders to avoid us having to go to court.  She had still been screaming at me to leave the house, I wasn't going (again) unless I filed.  She knew this.  She also knew that I wasn't leaving the house without some stipulation that my leaving would in no way affect custody arraignments and that I was not giving up any ownership of the house, contents... .  The order basically said, share the kids, and in lieu of child support I would cover the expenses of the house for a few months (more than double any CS she would receive) while we figured things out and got it ready to sell.  I have a free place to stay temporarily and she wanted me out.  I basically said "here, sign this.  You get what you want (which is to stay in the house for a few months until school is out).  I get what I want (which is away from her, and to stay out of court.)"  Well she wouldn't sign it.  She cried to her lawyer that I was being aggressive, and that she actually didnt want me to leave the house.  She wanted to reconcile, or look at some sort of nesting agreement.  Basically all sorts of bs.  I should've save my time, energy and money and just said "see you in court".

Only thing I can hope is the judge sees that I was solutions driven and came with fair offers to avoid taking up the court's precious time.  You've put your best foot forward and when it gets to the courts at least they will see who the logical person is.  My hopes for both of us is that things work out in the end even if we have to involve people we wish we didn't have to.

Best of luck J

-Oz

[Jeffree]

Insane.

Here's what I wrote to her this morning. Pissing in the wind, I know, but still trying to get her to see the madness of her ways... .

I am choosing to stick up for my rights as a co-parent whose spouse has abandoned the marital home. You are the one choosing to make everyone suffer to try and deny me my rights.

I waited until now because I knew how you’d react toward me once I stuck up for myself. I was hoping I could avoid this, but nothing has shaken out and you continued to think you owe your family nothing but your occasional presence, coming and going as you please in and out of this house, eating and drinking what you want, even requesting I buy you alcohol, without any financial responsibility for anyone or anything other than giving me $20 the last time you were here for food I bought and you used for yourself and the kids. Think about that. You gave $20 to someone you bankrupted and has been filling in all the financial gaps by taking money out of his 401k early, when for months you legally owed him $982/mo. in child support.

You see, this money you’re willing to pay SS19 to force him out of his childhood home and into an unsavory $600-$800/mo apt could have simply been paid to me as one of the options. Thats the second option in my text (minus him moving out, of course). That’s why in my email to you I laid out what I thought were some of the best options and opened the floor for you to bring forward some proposals.

But, nope! Nobody tells you how it is. So... .you continue to turn up your rhetoric, have inappropriate conversations trying to sell SS19 on you putting him up in an apartment (just about the worst solution to the problem for both he and SD22), and defy the legal obligations as their co-parents we signed up for when we got married. Then you want to spin it into me doing all this drama to them.

Oh, and just so you know, forcing him out of the marital home is extremely illegal when I have rights as his parent/guardian, and I strongly recommend you come up with a less inflammatory solution. Especially given that you are implying by forcing this move that you can afford 2-3 months of upfront rent and security that you could simply be paying the marital home and keep the status quo at least until SS19 is 21.

It’s simple, really, but you want to act out everything and anything with the kids as your weapons to try and hurt me and financially ruin me even more than you already have.

The most sensible option at this point is to pay me some form of support for SS19 so he can continue to live in the marital home in which he has lived for the past almost 9 years. You don’t have a legal leg to stand on for anything else, probably owe me some amount of support above and beyond this to maintain the marital home you abandoned, and could very well be on the hook for my legal fees for forcing me to fight this unnecessarily seeing as these are just my basic rights. Just like the speed limit is 55 mph, so am I entitled to support for the marital home you abandoned until SS19 is 21.

But I am sure your lawyer will advise you accordingly. Oh, there’s more money you are choosing to shift away from the marital home you abandoned so you can get some warped point of yours across to me.

Thank you and have a great day!

Jeffree


Her last two emails this morning since my reply have been... .

I don’t even have the money to pay my taxes that I am under water because of trying to do the right that. SS19 said he does not want to live with you or me. Your the one focusing this on everyone. I gave and spent plenty of money everytime I was over.

You win... .

I have not replied back. At this point, I believe I have made an irrefutable counter argument and am just going to wait until she is done spiraling out of control to see what her next attempt to subvert the facts is.

J

[flourdust]

Hey, Jeffree... .can we try another tack here?

If long letters full of detailed histories and airtight logic were the solution to working with pwBPD, we'd all be in great shape and these forums would be empty. But... .that's not how it works.

From your perspective, the issue is that you want her to provide child support that you believe you are entitled to.

If you are divorced, you should have a divorce decree that specifies child support. Getting it amended takes an order by the court.

If you are not divorced but are in the legal process, you can go to the court to request temporary child support. Again, this will be ordered by the court.

If you are separated, but not in the legal divorce process, you MAY have the option of requesting child support. You will need to work with an attorney to see if this is an option in your state and how to proceed.

The bottom line is that you need to go the legal route to get enforceable child support. This exchange of emails isn't going to get that for you.

[Skip]

Shortly after you abandoned the house on Aug 1, 2017, I spoke to my divorce attorney about the general lay of the land and that you wanted an easy-peasy divorce. I keep the equity in the house, my 401k, write off all the AMEX and VISA/MC debt via bankruptcy, etc. Simple like we had discussed. This would be no problem to get written up and moved forward, if that's still how you would like to proceed.

So, given that I have been having an impossibly hard time making ends meet and that ransacking my 401k isn't an option anymore, and that I am legally, no questions asked, entitled to receive $900-$1000/mo from you to support SS19, I will need to file a support petition fairly soon.

So in the letter you agree to "A" and want "B"?

Hey, Jeffree... .can we try another tack here?

And I'd add, drop the inflammatory language... .it only makes this more contentious.

There is a method called BIFF. Are you familiar with it? It's ideal for these exchanges.

These words just amp up the conflict:

you abandoned the house
you wanted an easy-peasy divorce
ransacking my 401k

I might say this thinks in very neutral terms.

[Jeffree]

I am just trying to give her a fair opportunity to work with me on a win-win resolution with this. I am not looking to have her pay garnished to the letter of the law. I am willing to take considerably less per month in exchange for her cooperation with all the other nuances in play here.

BIFF? Please send me to the workshop info for this.

J

[flourdust]

I am just trying to give her a fair opportunity to work with me on a win-win resolution with this. I am not looking to have her pay garnished to the letter of the law. I am willing to take considerably less per month in exchange for her cooperation with all the other nuances in play here.

That's your intent, but that's not really what's happening. You're writing her long, JADEy emails demanding that she give you money, and using a lot of emotional language in these emails. Even in a low-conflict separation/divorce, the stress about money is rarely amicably resolved.

BIFF? Please send me to the workshop info for this.

I don't think there's a workshop on that (there should be!). It's an acronym for Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm, and it's a technique for responding to emotional outbursts or high-conflict engagement.

Here's a Bill Eddy article on how to BIFF.

[Skip]

    
2.03 | B.I.F.F. Technique for Communications
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=134124

[Jeffree]

Thanks.

J

[Skip]

BIFF would look like this.

Hi,

I wanted to give you a heads up so that you are not blindsided on this matter.

I have been having an impossibly hard time making ends meet since you moved out and we are not sharing expenses. If we continue on the current path, I will need help supporting SS19 in the range of $900-$1000/mo. while he is living with me and will ask for that in the divorce.

There are alternatives... .

1) You move to (NE) with SS19.

2) You rent my house for a specified period and pay the bills. I will give you credit for the accumulated money paid toward the principal of the mortgage which is amounting to $375/mo. right now and you will get this back at the time of sale of the house. We can negotiate a reasonable amount for me to contribute to raising SS19 and any reasonable extra expenses such as clothes, school and school supplies, etc.

3) You buy the house from me at fair market value (minus exterior repairs and the like that devalue the house).

If there are other options I have not thought of here, please send them over. Again, I'm just trying to layout all scenarios here so we can move forward as well as possible.

Jeffree