Camping trip without the spouse

[zondolit]

My children want to go camping. I'd like to honor this request. I realized I do not want my husband (BPD/NPD) coming along: our interactions are too stressful currently. My heart desires a camping trip with my children only. My husband is welcome to take the children on a trip without me.

I told my husband this and he responded very negatively: He is coming along. He wants to be with his kids. He can decide to be with his children and this is not negotiable. He needs to know where his children are. He needs to look out for their well-being. We were planning a trip for the entire family. He feels threatened and unsafe. Why should my "demand" for a trip without him outweigh his desire for a trip all together? Etc.

What is your advice for me?

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[Jabiru]

Sounds fun to me. Have you went camping all together before? Maybe start with baby steps like taking your children just you to shopping or a friend/relative's place and work your way up. Thoughts?

[flakjacket]

Really sorry this totally fun, great, normal thing you and your kids want to do is being made so difficult!

I did something equivalent to this recently—took D3 to see family in a city a few hours away. When I told uBPDw I wanted to take the trip, she freaked out, demanded a custody agreement, said I couldn’t cross state lines with “her” D3, said I couldn’t take “her” car, said I was excluding her, etc. etc.

Long story short, I just went (after clearing with a lawyer that I wasn’t doing anything problematic). My wife sent demanding/threatening texts the whole weekend and at one point on FaceTime had on a strapless dress and makeup and said she was “going for a walk” at 8pm at night (empty threat, I’m fairly sure). The trip was fun. I got back, there was a BPD storm, it blew over. All in all pretty exhausting for me, but D3 had a great time and I’m proud of myself that I did it.

My uBPDw does not get violent (or hasn’t ever yet) and generally contains herself decently in front of D3. If either of those things weren’t true I probably wouldn’t have taken the trip.

Zondolit, not sure of the possibilities in your situation. What do you think H would do if you said firmly, “I am taking them to X place, we will be back at Y time, we will call you twice a day while we’re gone, again you’re welcome to take them camping some other time without me, see you Sunday”? Would the blowback be manageable/safe? Would it affect the kids?

Couples do this all the time—one peels off with the kids to bond while the other kicks back. Totally normal. Does not need to be justified—esp if the kids suggested it! They like camping! That’s awesome!

[zondolit]

Thank you for saying this is a good idea! I love camping and love that my children love it too.

I have no qualms about taking the children camping by myself; we've done a lot of camping. My only difficulty is my husband's response. He has not been violent so it is "only" the guilt-tripping, badgering, discrediting, etc. etc. that I have to deal with. His first response was to state he was coming with us.

Flakjacket, that is really good advice to give my husband very specific and reassuring information like we will call him twice a day.

Yesterday after praying, I got a new idea: give my husband a script that spells out how I wish he would respond to my proposal. Here's the script I gave him (the "I's" are my husband speaking):

An Alternative Response to Zondolit's Request to Take the Children Camping
“I would like to go with you. I do feel excluded. But I can also see how stressful our interactions have been for you (and the children) and I can understand why you’d want a break from that. So even though my preference is to go with you, I give you my blessing to take the children on a camping trip without me. I hear you when you say this is important to you.

"I know I can plan a trip as well, and I look forward to doing that and sharing a camping experience with my daughters. I will invite you to come on that trip but recognize it is your choice to join or not.”

His first response was, "yes! that's what I mean!" I held my tongue (no JADEing!) from explaining the script was far different from his response: why would I write a script if I was already satisfied with his response? Instead I said, "Great! Then we're on the same page!" We are so rarely on the same page; it was unbelievable! What a feeling! He even told me the script was helpful!

Then he decided he was not comfortable with the line "I give you my blessing to take the children on a camping trip without me." My heart sunk. Later he called me and read the script to me verbatim. Then he started crying and saying how unfair it is and how awful I am, etc. It was a very mixed message. I am thrilled to be taking my children camping, but I am having to endure a lot of badgering, guilt-tripping, accusations of how unfair our marriage is, etc.

Hearing from others that what I am asking for is normal, fine, and appropriate is very helpful right now. Thank you!

[flakjacket]

The script was a really smart, constructive—and frankly quite kind!—idea. Of course it makes sense that he ultimately felt it as an emotional attack. The way I thought about it with my wife was: You’re telling a person with the emotional capacity of a child that their favorite stuffed animals are going away for a while. Of course that would deeply upset a child! And it’s very sad that the adult feels it this way too. But you know what? The stuffies will come back, the child will (eventually) see everything is OK and the abandonment fear wasn’t realized, and you’re back to living life.

I don’t know if that makes sense. What I mean is, the guilt and drama will be super difficult until you’re alone in the car with your kids on your way to the campground, and there will be some fallout when you get back, but maybe he’ll forget about it pretty quickly?

One thing I would think about: What can you do to make sure he doesn’t interfere with your fun WHILE you’re camping? Can you say you’ll only have phone service at such-and-such times, then ignore any dramatic texts or calls? He may be at home stewing and trying to get a reaction out of you from afar.

[IntensivCareBear]

I just went through this very same scenario with my husband.  I planned a big 2 week trip back East to see family and for the two weeks leading up to it he was just horrible.  Fighting, lying, intimidating behaviors, etc...  I was starting to think I didn't want him to go... I was actually scared of him going at that point.  We talked and he said all the same things your spouse said and in the end he convinced me to give him a chance.  He said he would watch his temper, practice his dbt skills, etc...although I know he can't make those promises (at least, not currently), I decided to give it a try. Sure enough, he was pretty horrible throughout the trip.  I ended up taking the kids out and about without him some days, and that helped...but by the end of this trip, we both ended up agreeing it would have been better if he stayed home.

I don't know if sharing that helps, but maybe if you try it once (short trip to start) and you both see how it goes, it will be easier convincing ya'll to agree one way or the other if you have a previous experience to reference like this one.

[zondolit]

There was no cell phone service where we were camping so we had no contact for several days.

The harassing behavior leading up to the trip really affected the children and me. I felt traumatized. We had little patience with each other: the kids were at each other and I would snap at them. But we were able to work through it and in the end I felt my relationship with my children was stronger than ever.

On our return, my husband was positive and affable, like he'd sponsored the trip himself, a complete 180. In the past I'd be happy when he returned to his agreeable state, but this time it felt downright wrong.

[FirstSteps]

That's great to hear you all worked through it.  My kids also do this when I'm alone with them - so much so that I start to worry they can't regulate their emotions.  But then suddenly they calm down, apologize to each other or even me and I feel like we're building some good normal.

That also feels like a big shift to not appreciate the return to pleasantness.  I'm in a very similar situation, and it can be disorienting.  Does he usually stay pleasant for a long time in these situations?

[zondolit]

FirstSteps, it does feel like a big shift--my discomfort with his attempts at ignoring all that went on. I so much used to play along with this--anything to forget the crazy or bad parts.

Does he usually stay pleasant for a long time in these situations?

It's hard to know and I've given up trying to predict his (or anyone's!) behavior. A change is that I didn't go along with normalizing what is not normal this time: I brought up with him how stressful the lead up to the trip had been on me.

[Couscous]

A change is that I didn't go along with normalizing what is not normal this time: I brought up with him how stressful the lead up to the trip had been on me.

And how did that go?

[zondolit]

Couscous, I knew I had to say something to my husband and not just let it go as I have in the past, but it was really hard. I did feel good about having gotten it off my chest, and I feel good about how I said it too--directly, calmly, simply, with the focus on how his behaviors made me feel. His response was to agree with a few points I made but say nothing about his role in any of it, which was frustrating to me. He is now telling me he can no longer trust me. He is increasingly suspicious of me.

There are a number of times over the past year or two where I've made a change to no longer participate in some unhealthy pattern. On one hand, it is really hard and takes a great deal of courage to make such a change--I'm literally shaking before, during, and after. On the other hand, there is something simple and easy about it, like a calm step to the side when a bull is charging me, and it leaves me feeling at peace.

Here's what 15years wrote on August 22 that I really resonate with right now: “The more you work on yourself, the weirder the relationship drama will feel. You create a new sense of normal, so the dysfunctional normal that developed between the two of you will feel more and more insane as time passes.”