What is the truth?

[Skip]

What is the truth?

She have no issues with the new guy and this mean that the problem was me,
i need to work hard and improve myself.

If your ex treated you badly, rest  assured a new person won't magically change that behavior.

These are the two extremes of the scale. Although it is hard, we will do best when we can focus in on what is real. Let's try to do that if we can.

I think the hardest lesson for me is that, regardless of how attracted we are to someone, we might not be right for each other and someone might be better - or our circumstances might be wrong - or our values might ne different. Many of us don't know if or partner actually has a PD - could very well be just traits of a PD (lots of folks have traits of NPD for example - it's not the same as being an extreme ASPD or the most extreme ASPD (sociopath). None-the-less, all these traits make compatibilities more limited and make relationships more imbalanced where one partner has to be a caretaker or even a bit of a "grandparent".

Was it black an white in your relationship or more a more gray?
How so?
Can you live with that reality?
What does it mean about the relationship?
What does it mean about your partner?
What does it mean about you?

I think this is the closure we all seek. Not eay questions to answer until we dare as amut is doing, to try on various possible scenarios i hope of finding our reality and closure.

[patientandclear]

Yes, these are hard for me.

I do think it is possible that, had I know about BPD from the outset or had I been less triggered by my partner's sudden shift from certain to doubtful, from steady to disappearing ... .I could have heard him better, helped him return to baseline, and we could have carried on.

A lot of responsibility for the fact that I experienced his shift as a threat lies with him, as he had been terribly misleading with me about how things go with him in relationships. There was no sense that this could or even probably would happen, though by the time we were dating, he had a long pattern to draw on and should have known there was a high risk of him having a bad reaction. Instead he promised that everything "is and will be great." I had past hurts involving men pulling the rug out from under me, and he went out of his way to make me feel safe.

My reaction to his sudden bad feelings probably sealed the deal for us. But his decades-long failure to gain insight into what happens and why--and his pattern of blaming the change in feelings on being with the wrong woman--didn't help, and has repeated since from what I can tell.

To your point that sometimes people are just not a good match: due to past abuse, there are risks I just cannot repeatedly walk into anymore. After I took a leap of faith with my BPDex and made myself vulnerable a second and third time, trying to accept who he really is, and he still hurt me in new ways I had not foreseen--at some point I couldn't just make a leap of faith that it would be OK if we tried again. I sought reassurance from him that he cannot provide; and I needed him not to trip my alarm wires AT ALL or I was prepared to bolt. That wasn't ever going to "work" with him. Maybe someone else who isn't all poised to bolt if mistreated would get further with him--maybe he could relax over time with the knowledge that the other person is committed and not leaving. I am just not that person any more.

I will say, I DID extend the benefit of the doubt several times with him and I did open myself up again; and his patterns have been established over the course of devastating dozens of amazing women; and when he achieves control because the other person accepts him, ultimately, he just becomes more disappointed in that r/ship because his hopes rise, and he devalues more sharply and tests in more and more boundary-busting ways. So I don't know that it's true that someone can do better with him--there may only be different roads toward the same end. But I can say that we were not the right match. He thinks he needs, or he wants, something that my resolve not to participate in my own abuse will no longer allow me to do. So we don't match. It's too bad because there is much good and there was much growth. But he doesn't want to or doesn't have the skills to or doesn't have the insight to set aside certain impulses to break or devalue what we have. And I don't want to, or can no longer bring myself to, knowingly walk back into an arrangement that just hurt me a lot.

[Pretty Woman]

I think the truth is in the actual evidence, the actions.

I in no way believe I am perfect and yes I contributed to the dysfunction by trying to "fix" someone else rather than walk away from a situation that was not healthy for either party.

Still, I do not run around threatening other people or telling them I love them and then the next day I'm in love with another. That is no T acceptable behavior.  If a stranger did to me the things this person did I would have walked away quickly. This was not a stranger. This was someone who told me they had a horrible childhood filled with unimaginable abuse. I cried for this person and tried to hold them above water when all they were was a drowning soul, climbing on top of me to save themselves.

I am not here to blame anyone or tell them they are right or wrong. Feelings are feelings. In my opinion the truth is in the history, in the patterns and in the results. I'm a very analytical person. Growth involves change. BPDs don't change, they just continue the patterns that work for them and allow them to effectively manipulate people with low self esteem and self worth.

It bothered me to read Amunts post because it sounds like he completely blames himself and he is not 100 percent to blame for the demise of his relationship.  It takes two to tango.

I myself no onger dislike my replacement. If anything, I have empathy for her. My ex was looking for a mother, I wanted a girlfriend.  She has that relationship now and hopefully it's working for her.

[woundedPhoenix]

I think one of the issues in these relationships is that compatibility issues and past relationship patterns are often masked in the beginning.

In idealisation, both partners are trying to be as compatible as possible, the non reacts to the infatuation with showing his/her best side, the BPDs mirroring often creates an unsustainable impression of compatibility, while the underlying negative behaviours are suppressed. Just like in the beginning of a normal relationship, but at a much much wider scale.

Once idealisation and mirroring start to diminish, lots of elements that made the relationship in the beginning so special start to erode, there also might be a very subtle and gradual change in character, frequency of intimacy, and the ability to solve problems gets less and less.

I think both BPD and non in their own ways alternate between trying to close the gap again and voice their frustration over why the gap is there, and that leads to a push and pull to find back and again reject what 'was'. Both BPD and Non can be co-dependant and try to make 'it work', without understanding eachother really.

In a normal relationship you have a powerplay stage you have to get through to land in a stability stage where both partners end up accepting eachother and live with eachothers pros and cons. With a BPD it is always about control, and the stability stage where the non is longing for never comes.

I think the personality of the non can have an influence to slow down or even reset this dynamic a few times, but ultimately the deeply engrained attachment styles of both partners will work to prove their point.

[steelwork]

The relationship was so far from black and white. It was a rainbow and a muddle. I'll probably be sorting out what happened for the rest of my life. That has as much to do with the fact that it was an affair as anything else. What I can positively say was black and white was his treatment of me, which was either devotion or contempt. I can't speak to what it was like inside his head, but I did learn later that there was a lot going on in the last year or so that he hid from me.

Can I live with it? Well, what choice do I have?

What does it say about the relationship? Relationships are always hard. I expect them to be hard. But it meant that we were never able to talk about what was really going on. The task of bringing it to the surface was insurmountable. I did not know him as well as I thought I did, and I did not know myself as well as I thought I did. And if I had, I would like to think I would have made different choices.

What that says about my partner: he lives with a lot of fear. If there was a cloud tag for our relationship, FEAR would be the biggest word: fear of his feelings for me, fear of his wife, fear of his son being taken away, fear of losing his job, fear of failing in everything he does, fear of losing me. His behavior towards me was highly reactive to his fears. He pushed through them and exposed himself to me emotionally, expecting that I would leave my boyfriend, and then his fears were confirmed. That was when he started lying to me. He told me, early on, that he lies out of fear.

What it says about me: I was not able to let go of either him or my boyfriend. The reasons for that would fill a 1,000-page book. I thought I could tolerate that state of anxious ambiguity and perpetual loss because those things have been part of my life forever. I thought the important thing was that I was giving of myself to everyone. I stretched myself to the breaking point, in part because I didn't want to disappoint anyone.

To your point, Skip: no matter how much we loved each other, we each needed something the other couldn't give. I think he took heroic emotional risks with me and suffered for them. Timing, my damage, his damage.

[Pretty Woman]

I hope I'm not being taken wrong on these boards. I 100% know I have co dependent and abandonment issues. My mother was, is very cold and can be emotionally distant. I was conditioned at a very young age to her not showing up at any important event in my life, picking on me the day of an event like graduations, birthdays and recitals.  She'd praise me in front of others and tear me down behind closed doors. My mom was not physically abusive yet sometimes I thought no the physical bruises heal faster.

So yes, I attracted in many ways my mother. This year I let go of a lot of abusive friendships and I have this board to thank for it.

I think I will always be hurt that I gave so much love to people who shat on it, but I've been surrounding myself with healthier people and I'm recognizing the difference. It's been eye opening for me.

[Circle]

Was it black and white in your relationship or more a more gray?
Definitely a gray. I was so quickly swept into the situation, of my own accord, that I had a hard time keeping the objective neutrality needed for such a high conflict team-up to work. Amazing it lasted as long as it did.

How so?
I was so quickly and often swept up into 'defensive' mode. What if I had mastered more of a let-it-be attitude toward things? I think the outcome would have been less black and white.

Can you live with that reality?
I can live with it. Loss is a lesson. I'm relearning it. It's teaching me to become less unhealthily attached. Not an easy lesson, of course.

What does it mean about the relationship?
For me, it means that my love was real. For my partner, as I see it, it means I was used. Enough time has gone by, that I am able to reflect objectively on the situation. My partner repeatedly had an 'agenda' of what they wanted from me. Their love was usually conditional in what they were aiming to get. Sometimes it wasn't. Regardless, it doesn't mean that 'it never could have worked'. A different, more masterful approach from the beginning, perhaps would have succeeded. However my partner pulled out the big guns at the end, aimed them at me and threatened. Now, my life is in my own hands. ''Staying alive is the running man's bible.'' T.Petty

What does it mean about your partner?
It means, to me that my x partner is a confused, growing individual; who still thinks that scalping you and serving it to you on a plate, is an effective means of communication. Also, it speaks to the fact that my x is a person who repeatedly strategizes ways of getting their needs met at the very obvious detriment of others. It means that my x partner has their good side and can be a radiant, joyful person too. It means that I truly loved them.

What does it mean about you?
It means that I too can be a high conflict individual. I have yet to master peaceful conflict resolution. I am growing. It means that I don't threaten people with their own well being. It means that I give others a chance as a person, even if it seems obvious that they are risky gamble of my time and energy. It means that I was finally able to take the steps needed to walk away from a dangerous, bad situation. That I can be a survivor of lost love.

[rfriesen]

What is the truth?

Was it black an white in your relationship or more a more gray?
How so?

In terms of our mood together, I think my ex and I were pretty far to the extreme of black-and-white. That is, we were either on top of the world or having a major crisis. In terms of who was driving that dynamic, it's more grey for sure. Circumstances and both of us played major roles. She was engaged when we started and I was living with an ex, and not even a clear ex -- we had said we were on a break. Soon she left her fiancé and wanted more commitment from me. From then on, I was constantly trying to avoid conflict and would hide or, to be honest now, just lie about minor things to my ex to keep things happy. My ex would sometimes explode in rage and could be pretty cruel in those moments, and that would reinforce the ways I was avoidant and sort of compartmentalizing my life.

When we tried to talk things out, the focus was on my behaviour more than hers. We both should have been more balanced there -- again, my pattern in relationships has been to just keep things happy until, if I thought the relationship wasn't working, I would try to exit gracefully. So I wasn't exactly giving my all to this relationship. And when it all started going off the rails and I decided I needed to end it, one thing was clear -- my ex would not allow this to be done gracefully. And I allowed the dysfunctional blame-game to go on for months after that point. More than allowed, I got sucked into it and played an active role.

Can you live with that reality?

Yes, but it's hard because my ex really did drive home the point that I didn't give the relationship my all, that I was never fully invested in a sense. At the same time, she has always refused to look at her own role in the dysfunction and, at the end of the day, I do think she was basically demanding that I be fully invested before she would take that step. So there was no foundation of trust -- and I had seen what happened in her past relationships once a guy was "all-in". She had even said as much at the beginning of our relationship -- that she doesn't understand why, but she loses interest, loses respect for a guy once he's completely devoted.

What does it mean about the relationship?

We fed each other's dysfunctional relationship patterns.

What does it mean about your partner?

She wants desperately to be loved, I think. But once her fears and trust issues are triggered, she will demand proof of unconditional love before she's willing to look seriously at her own behaviour. And once she is offered unconditional love, she has a history of losing interest.

What does it mean about you?

I want desperately for my partners to think well of me, I think. I want them to see and feel and believe how much I love them, and I want to feel that I'm touching them deeply. There's a line from Leonard Cohen that has always really resonated with me -- "I couldn't feel, so I learned to touch."

The way our personalities came together, my ex and I, produced incredible fireworks, and we complemented each other so well in many ways. But when it went bad, it all became very toxic.

[steelwork]

Yes. Except in extreme circumstances, an adult bears more responsibility for her or his behaviour than a child.

I also think that part of the value of this exercise--answering these questions--is to think about the whole relationship. Did your relationship only involve being bullied?

If so... .maybe you could answer the questions on that basis?

[kc sunshine]

One thing that played a role in the relationship was the diagnosis of BPD. She told me that BPD had destroyed every relationship that she had had, and told me about her devastating history of jealousy, rage, and some violence. That spooked me pretty bad, as did her rages. I faced the jealousy and rage and the devaluation but never the (physical) violence.At different points some part of me thought that we could handle it, but another part of me was reluctant to do things like expose my kids to it, or move in, etc. So there was both gray and black and white. The gray part was definitely the "we can handle this" side but then there was a black and white part for me that at core didn't think we could. So besides the complications and co-dependency issues that I brought to the relationship, and the BPD traits themselves, there was this whole set of things around my struggle with BPD as a diagnosis and as a life choice (for me and my kids). I wonder if I wasn't so spooked by the diagnosis, if we would have had a better chance.

Like amunt, my ex is in a very loving and stable seeming relationship with her new partner (it's been about 5 months). The ironic thing is that if my ex had a long term relationship in her past, I probably would have felt more "safe" with her... .if this relationship of hers lasts and is solid then that would have addressed my worries, but it is of course too late!

[Turkish]

There are restraining orders associated with both relationships on either side of mine (ex bf, and she tried to serve new husband's brother). There is mutual DV in her current marriage. It's easy to point out that it's her. 

That being said,  my T (who saw her twice individually before she quit), finally said,  "you aren't a good match," and Bowen is turning over in his grave, early.

The gray for me is that I shut down and retreat from conflict.  Sure,  it saved me from getting punched or objects thrown at me,  but it triggered abandonment fears.  This wasn't an either/or. There was a middle ground which I could have taken.  Truthfully,  I was done with the r/s, I just saw it 5-7 years in the future.  I cringed when I looked forward and thought about retirement with her 30 years on the future.  She made the decision for me. I wanted to be done,  but just didn't see an out.  Though I blame her for her actions,  I don't do so for her feelings.  Nor for mine.

[TyroneWiggums]

I'll happily stipulate that I was the problem, if by problem one means that my disgust at being lied to and manipulated and abused by my very very Diagnosed ex meant that we couldn't be in our relationship as constructed. 

Would I love to be with the woman who was the most amazing partner I'd ever had again? Would jump at the opportunity. Would I go anywhere near the partner she was at the end if I didn't know her? Noo!

She's told me herself that she thinks she can be happier in the types of relationships she had before me.  Those relationships involved her cheating heavily on her partners, stealing, lying, and making it clear that if her partners couldn't be a doormat they could hit the road.

I have no doubt she'll get what she wants. Objectively, I wouldn't have been happy being that person for her, so it's true both that I am a huge reason behind the relarionship's breakdown but that the only way we would have worked would have been to get nearly nothing from my partner.  I'll pass

[Kalinin]

Look, how many truly good relationships do you see around you with so-called "healthy" people? I mean, 85% of relationships end in breakup and don't survive 3 years mark (power-struggle phase). 50% of first marriages end in divorce and the rest of them... .Well, let's just say not every married couple is happy.

Remember that almost all people exhibit some BPD traits. Even a healthy person will start devaluing you and treat you with contempt if you start acting like a doormat. Every healthy person will idealize you and act lovey-dovey in the infatuation stage. It's chemical. Otherwise nobody would have relationship with anybody. Because honestly, we are just not naturally built to be happy in a monogamous relationship. It takes a lot of work and self-awareness.

Remember that we are dealing with a spectrum disorder. Let's not just paint our partners black. Most of us need therapy as much as they do and are somewhere on that spectrum too.

I'm willing to bet that most of our partners are not BPD in the clinical sense. Some are this way because they are young and immature, so there is some hope for them. Some of them are truly disordered and need long-term therapy. Some are just so disordered, there is nothing but disaster waiting for them ahead (think heavy drug-users, severe self-harm behaviour, huge number of sex partners). But for the most part, they are just like everybody else, but this disorder severely limits their ability to build a stable long-term relationship.

So yes, there are more suitable partners for our ex's. I know, that I didn't know how to handle a lot of situations with my ex and that triggered her and cause problems. I wasn't a doormat, but I wasn't someone who can establish boundaries in a healthy way either. I wasn't desperate for validation, but I was insecure and that made me behave in unhealthy and unattractive ways. I refused to take responsibility for my own happiness and that made me needy.

I also saw her with someone who worshipped her and acted like a complete doormat. They seemed happy from the outside and their relationship was way more stable, but she cheated on him pretty much the whole time. They were engaged and she was determined to marry him, even though she was pretty much disgusted as he touched her (from her own words). She also said that he is more suitable partner for her (because he better cared for her many needs).

Now she is with someone else and they seem over the moon and are getting married this weekend. I don't know the guy, because I'm NC, but he seemed doormaty when they started talking, and they moved extremely fast, so apparently he didn't have a problem with that either. He is also 10 years older, so he can be a better caretaker for her, kind of "daddy" figure.

So I believe they would have a more stable relationship than her and I had. She would also most likely shut down sexually after some time or start cheating on him if he will act as a doormat. If he will push back, they will have more volatile and sexually charged relationship, but this guy will have a lot of grey hairs pretty soon.

So again, there are partners that our ex's are more compatible with and have a more stable relationship, but they are far from what you imagine to be "happy" relationships. You can see only what you are allowed to see from the outside.

But again, so are most relationships on this planet.

[lovenature]

The truth for me is that I have struggled with low self esteem for many years, and during the worst time of my life (loss of my Mom) I met my ex. The combination of her uBPD and my co-dependant rescuer/caretaker combined to allow an unhealthy relationship to go on much longer than it should have.

My ex. and I weren't compatible in a HEALTHY relationship because neither of us is emotionally healthy.

[Sunfl0wer]

Chiming in late as I do feel that this may be a helpful thing for me to consider... .  Thanks.

Was it black and white in your relationship or more a more gray?
How so?

Not really sure what the "it" is, so I'll just go with it... .
Things were sometimes wonderful.  That first year, I thought he was too good to be true/we were too good to be true and often I tried to find something seriously flawed with him, but could never find it.  Yet, when things got bad, initially they were simply short moments.  The in between wonderful times began to slowly erode.  And the short bad moments turned into a climate of things that seemed to often either cloud us, or lingered under the surface unresolved.

Looking back, I have since learned, his amicable behavior, was a bit of a suppression.  He suppressed his thoughts and opinions that first year to avoid any semblance of conflict. I found this out during a rage of his where he stated he always lets me get my way and never his.  I found out we were not compromising and negotiating as I thought, but he was pushing down his true thoughts on many things, to make things seem agreeable. 

As time went on, we began to trigger each others core trauma wounds.
He began to have a transference issue where he behaved as though I was his abusive ex.  He took it out on me, the stress he was bottling up over allowing himself to be abused by her during our relationship, and was emotionally abusive to me. (He lacked this awareness though)  I reacted with a triggered PTSD response sometimes, (flinching, skittish, hypervigilance, snarkiness) and this made him more angry towards me, and me more cautious and distant, thus contributing to a mutual intimacy distancing.

Can you live with that reality?

I have no choice.  I tried to change that reality.  I thought once our MC agreed that is what was happening, only thing left was to coach us both towards each other.  My BF had BPD/NPD traits and was pretty much not open to any possibility other than: My relationship with Sunfl0wer does not feel ok, therefore, Sunfl0wer is defective, therefore, distance from her and I will feel ok again.  He was adamant that was the only solution, despite MC attempts for many months to turn towards me again.

While BF did attend MC, his ability for self reflection did not occur.  He thought he was attending, simply, "to help Sunfl0wer," to continue viewing himself as "the good guy" he saw himself as.

I do believe if my BF had the ability to accept his role in the dynamic, or even half of his role in it, we could have had a wonderful future together, possibly.

What does it mean about the relationship?

There was only hope if BF was willing to consider his role in our issues, and willing to face some FOO issues or history issues that were the cause of his reactivity and transference of confusing me with his ex.  (Our first MC confirmed he didn't know her from me and would lash out on me when it was a bit delusional to do so.)

Otherwise... .
Our cycle of emotional abuse was going to continue rolling along with us if issues were swept under the rug continuously.

We likely would continue to unintentionally/intentionally trigger the other.  (Not to victimize myself, but BF literally did try provoking me often to release his own feelings of rage, as he would not discuss them, always wanting to pretend he had no anger, then exploding.)

What does it mean about your partner?

He is a great guy in many ways.  I do believe this.  He has issues though that are too painful for him to work on, or he is not ready, or he lacks insight into the importance or such.

Likely he needs someone with a more secure attachment style that does not have cPTSD. (According to book Attached, he is Avoidant, I am likely disorganized atm)

What does it mean about you?

I have cPTSD, (likely he did too, but not diagnosed) and am capable of having my issues exacerbated with a dynamic of someone else who is unable to be aware of his own triggers and how they affect him and others, unwilling to consider the possibility.

I need to find someone who can be considerate of my needs, in a way that me setting boundaries, can be as easy as changing topic, or taking a short time out, cause when it means sleeping elsewhere due to rage and abuse, well, that doesn't work well for me cause I prefer to turn towards my partner at times of difficulties vs distancing.   As long as I am a Disorganized style of attachment, likely also would do best to find myself a Secure one or even an Anxious one cause at least Anxious styles turn toward the partner during stress, instead of away... .and I feel I can be comforting and work better with that than Avoidant... .as Avoidant is precisely what seems to trigger me.

[kc sunshine]

What Skip says here is so true for me. Even if she does have hard core BPD, our circumstances were wrong. My kids lived in another city and I needed to try to get closer to them. Her life was in our city and she needed to stay in that city.

That is the main truth.

What got super hard was the the break up itself, the painting black, and the speed by which she replaced me. It is definitely hard to see that both she and her daughter seem to be doing much better and are much happier living with my replacement.

On the perhaps truth side-- perhaps it is less that my replacement is better than me, etc. but perhaps my replacement can give my ex and her daughter what I just couldn't. A stable present and a stable future. Maybe that is very good for people with BPD tendencies (both my ex and her daughter have them).

I wish it could have been me though, I loved them both so much. 

What is the truth?


I think the hardest lesson for me is that, regardless of how attracted we are to someone, we might not be right for each other and someone might be better - or our circumstances might be wrong - or our values might ne different.

[steelwork]

sunfl0wer and KC, wanted to say I relate to what you wrote--both of you.