I see this as blaming the victim

[boatman]

What is the truth?

These are the two extremes of the scale. Although it is hard, we will do best when we can focus in on what is real. Let's try to do that if we can.

I think the hardest lesson for me is that, regardless of how attracted we are to someone, we might not be right for each other and someone might be better - or our circumstances might be wrong - or our values might ne different. Many of us don't know if or partner actually has a PD - could very well be just traits of a PD (lots of folks have traits of NPD for example - it's not the same as being an extreme ASPD or the most extreme ASPD (sociopath). None-the-less, all these traits make compatibilities more limited and make relationships more imbalanced where one partner has to be a caretaker or even a bit of a "grandparent".

Was it black an white in your relationship or more a more gray?
How so?
Can you live with that reality?
What does it mean about the relationship?
What does it mean about your partner?
What does it mean about you?

I think this is the closure we all seek. Not eay questions to answer until we dare as amut is doing, to try on various possible scenarios i hope of finding our reality and closure.

Some more important questions to ponder... .

Bullying is a very prevalent problem in our society, both among kids and adults. If I am understanding Skip's argument here, an adult that is bullied would be partly responsible for his/her own abuse. Would the same be true for a child? If no, then what specific differences between a child and an adult would necessitate the transfer of responsibility from a bully to a person being bullied?

[Skip]

If I am understanding Skip's argument here, an adult that is bullied would be partly responsible for his/her own abuse.

I'm challenging members (individually) to dig deeper, boatman, I'm not making an "argument" 

I'm asking the questions we must understand to connect as close to a balanced reality as possible - engage your inner critic - reach for a the elusive closure - one that will stick.

[boatman]

Ok... .

Would you tell an adult that is a bullying victim that he or she should, in the interest of "closure" and a "balanced reality", "engage" the criticism of the bully in his/her mind? Would you tell a child to do this? Is there a difference between a child and adult bullying victim?

[rfriesen]

Is there a difference between a child and adult bullying victim?

Yes. Except in extreme circumstances, an adult bears more responsibility for her or his behaviour than a child. A child who is a victim of bullying might have very little in terms of tools for defusing the situation, leaving the situation, reaching out for help, even recognizing the situation as one of bullying in the first place. As adults, we take greater responsibility for our actions and for how we let others treat us.

That said, the point is not to blame the victim here, even if an adult. If we've found ourselves the victim of bullying as an adult, it can be a helpful exercise (for us in moving forward, not for assigning blame for the past bullying) to consider how we found ourselves in an abusive relationship, or a difficult relationship, how we engaged, why we might not have recognized the patterns we were involved in, etc.

[boatman]

That said, the point is not to blame the victim here, even if an adult.

I absolutely disagree. This is victim blaming, no matter how you look at it. The premise of Skip's original post, and his line of questioning is that it is important to look inward to see what behaviors on the part of the victim elicited, and/or perpetuated the abuse on the part of the abuser.

How is this beneficial?

[rfriesen]

I absolutely disagree. This is victim blaming, no matter how you look at it. The premise of Skip's original post, and his line of questioning is that it is important to look inward to see what behaviors on the part of the victim elicited, and/or perpetuated the abuse on the part of the abuser.

How is this beneficial?

I don't see that Skip's original post says anything about victim and abuser. But let's suppose we're talking about a relationship that can fairly be characterized as one between a victim and an abuser. Surely we can hold the abuser responsible while also asking how to spot abusive tendencies in a relationship, so that we can avoid such relationships going forward. Would you agree with that, boatman?

To take a very simplistic analogy, if a newcomer to a city wanders into a dangerous area and is assaulted, we wouldn't blame that person or excuse the assailant. But that person would likely want to learn places to avoid and how to spot them going forward. The fact that we can learn such things going forward doesn't mean that we're excusing the assailant's behaviour.

Undoubtedly some relationships involve an abuser and a victim. But there are also many relationships described here in which the dynamics are much murkier. That can be hard to sort through. I know my ex could be verbally abusive at times. But I wouldn't describe our relationship as one of abuser and victim. I think she has a mean streak that I don't have. But I can see that we enraged each other in predictable ways and that I played my role in those dynamics.

That doesn't mean the same will be true of other relationships. But we can all take a hard look at our relationship dynamics and find our own answers.

[boatman]

To take a very simplistic analogy, if a newcomer to a city wanders into a dangerous area and is assaulted, we wouldn't blame that person or excuse the assailant. But that person would likely want to learn places to avoid and how to spot them going forward. The fact that we can learn such things going forward doesn't mean that we're excusing the assailant's behaviour.

I don't agree at all. Could you imagine telling an assault victim that he or she should have been walking in a different area? Even worse, could you imagine asking the assault victim to consider and understand his/her "role" in the assault? The implication of these questions would be clear, that there was something about the victim that elicited the assault.

I know my ex could be verbally abusive at times. But I wouldn't describe our relationship as one of abuser and victim. I think she has a mean streak that I don't have. But I can see that we enraged each other in predictable ways and that I played my role in those dynamics.

Based on the plethora of horrid stories I have read on this site, I doubt your situation represents the majority of members here. I used to try to look at my exes and my family in a similar light, but I found that it wasn't a realistic viewpoint. I was codependently blaming myself for their behavior and I was being way too easy on them. It wasn't until I started viewing them as they are, abusers, and in the case of my exes, predators, that I began to heal. It was my therapist that pushed me toward this viewpoint and I'm glad she did. It brought an end to all of the self recrimination.

[jhkbuzz]

I don't agree at all. Could you imagine telling an assault victim that he or she should have been walking in a different area?

It's not about blaming at ALL - it's about educating. If someone came to my city and was attacked, I wouldn't "blame" them for wandering into a bad part of town - I'd grab a map and say, "hey, what happened to you SUCKS - here's the places you don't want to be at night by yourself."

This entire website is composed of people who want to "grab the map" and show us. Part of that process necessarily includes us being active participants in this educational process. We've got to look at the map, not simply turn our heads away and hope we don't end up in another bad part of town in the future.

Your thinking seems kinds of black and white in certain areas. If you're an adult on this board, the truth is that you made some decisions in your r/s as well. Some of MY decisions included ignoring early red flags, allowing myself to get pulled into a "parentified" r/s, and ignoring some of her emotionally abusive behavior because I wanted the r/s to last.

Were these horrible decisions in and of themselves? No. Do these decisions I made somehow make me partially responsible for HER emotionally abusive behaviors (her chronic lying and cheating)? No. I'm responsible for my own behavior and she's responsible for hers.

BUT - do I want to look at the reasons for some of the decisions I made? HELL YES. If I don't understand myself and my motives for staying in the r/s, I will probably make the same misguided decisions moving forward, and find myself in another, equally dysfunctional and emotionally abusive r/s.

I was codependently blaming myself for their behavior and I was being way too easy on them. It wasn't until I started viewing them as they are, abusers, and in the case of my exes, predators, that I began to heal. It was my therapist that pushed me toward this viewpoint and I'm glad she did. It brought an end to all of the self recrimination.

It sounds like your therapist pushed you out of your codependency - and that's good. Mine pushed me out of my own as well. This was difficult because I had taken on SO much responsibility in the r/s - and because my ex pushed me into a parentified role (which I accepted, btw). I was much too easy on her for far too long.

Looking at WHY I had (agreed to) take on so much responsibility and HOW I tolerated the abuse for so long was what I explored in therapy - and NONE of that process included blaming myself (or holding myself responsible for her abuse). What I learned is that my family of origin predisposed me to these types of r/s's - and now that I am aware of this moving forward I hope to make better, healthier decisions. THAT is what this post is about - understanding ourselves better so we can have happier, healthier r/s's in the future. It's not at all about assigning blame.

[gotbushels]

I was codependently blaming myself for their behavior and I was being way too easy on them. It wasn't until I started viewing them as they are, abusers, and in the case of my exes, predators, that I began to heal. It was my therapist that pushed me toward this viewpoint and I'm glad she did. It brought an end to all of the self recrimination.

I'm glad you shared this. Sometimes I find that when I'm able to find an understanding and context of how two people fit into a relationship with each other, it helps me to be satisfied and grow.

I don't agree at all. Could you imagine telling an assault victim that he or she should have been walking in a different area?

I mean this in an innocent way boatman, I don't think that's the direction rfriesen is describing. I hope I can help with my own example.

E.g., I'm logic-heavy relative to my ex. It's thought that during some pwBPD episodes, the non shouldn't attempt logic. It's potentially destructive.

I do think my ex was an abuser (there were physical episodes too). I think some parts of the relationship were murky as I contributed to the abuse from time to time--like in my example. I didn't know a lot of things then, but I do now. I don't blame myself for neither understanding the situation nor knowing the appropriate courses of action.

If I knew what I was doing, and perpetuated the cycle, then I'd be more inclined to blame myself. I didn't know, so I pity myself rather than blame.


<edit:format>

[steelwork]

Could you imagine telling an assault victim that he or she should have been walking in a different area?

I'm struck by the fact that you keep coming back to this analogy, boatman. Myself, I don't see my relationship as an assault--as though I were clubbed on the head and dragged back to his cave. A whole bunch of things happened, both good and bad, and I ended up getting very hurt, and I remember saying to myself at the end, "This is a very dangerous person." It was a revelation to look at him that way, but it didn't wipe out all the history we had.

I think if I felt the best analogy for my relationship was an assault on the street that would be very frightening. A really powerless position.

[boatman]

I'd grab a map and say, "hey, what happened to you SUCKS - here's the places you don't want to be at night by yourself".

The truth is that someone could be assaulted anywhere. Think of the full emotional import of saying this to an assault victim. How do you think it would make him or her FEEL?

We've got to look at the map, not simply turn our heads away and hope we don't end up in another bad part of town in the future.

This IS codependency. If I do "x" then it will yield result "y". This same type of illusion of control was at the root of my codependency. Like I said, the truth is, anyone could be assaulted at anytime. The same is true in relationships, the abuse could happen at anytime regardless of any action the victim might take.

I do think my ex was an abuser (there were physical episodes too). I think some parts of the relationship were murky as I contributed to the abuse from time to time

I'm sorry this happened to you. Maybe one day you will be able to look at the situation differently and believe that you had no hand in your own abuse. 

[rfriesen]

This IS codependency. If I do "x" then it will yield result "y". This same type of illusion of control was at the root of my codependency. 

I hear your point, boatman, I truly do. I think we might be talking past each other to some extent, though. Maybe I can try one last example, more to the point? Sometimes the victim in an abusive relationship blames themself for the abuse and keeps returning to the abuser. At some point the victim might recognize "If I keep returning (do x), it will yield more abuse (result y). On the other hand, if I leave and stop blaming myself, it will yield a safer situation for me."

The fact that the victim has recognized they have some agency in the situation and can do something to remove themself from the abusive situation is certainly not to say that they should accept blame for the abuse. But it is empowering for a victim of abuse to understand the situation they're in and see how to leave it safely.

Like I said, the truth is, anyone could be assaulted at anytime. The same is true in relationships, the abuse could happen at anytime regardless of any action the victim might take.

Abuse does not just "happen at anytime" in healthy relationships. If someone is in a relationship in which abuse can happen at any time, that person needs to recognize the relationship is abusive and take steps accordingly. Again, this is about empowerment, not blaming.

[jhkbuzz]

The truth is that someone could be assaulted anywhere. Think of the full emotional import of saying this to an assault victim. How do you think it would make him or her FEEL?

I would imagine that s/he would feel grateful for the assistance so s/he could avoid danger in the future. If it were me, I would appreciate the experienced insight - without immediately thinking that the person offering help was somehow blaming ME for the assault.

We've got to look at the map, not simply turn our heads away and hope we don't end up in another bad part of town in the future.

This IS codependency. If I do "x" then it will yield result "y". This same type of illusion of control was at the root of my codependency. Like I said, the truth is, anyone could be assaulted at anytime. The same is true in relationships, the abuse could happen at anytime regardless of any action the victim might take.

No, it's not codependency at all. It's the recognition that some parts of the city are more dangerous, and some parts are less dangerous. This is not some sort of insurance that nothing bad will EVER happen in the good parts of the city. But I can greatly reduce my chances of being a victim if I educate myself.

I feel the same way about relationships with people who have personality disorders. For reasons I explained earlier, I was susceptible to a r/s with a person that I am reasonably certain others in my position would have RUN from. I didn't. I want to learn how to run. It doesn't serve me well if all I do is focus on her (horrible) behavior; I've got to look at the decisions I made so I can take charge of my life - and never again fall prey to someone who is unstable.
 
I can do this while recognizing that I am not responsible for her abusive behavior. I can also recognize that I was an adult participant who made choices and decisions that I don't want to repeat. I own that as well; the two are not mutually exclusive.

I think that, right now, you are erring on the side of caution - and that's okay. You may have been so easy and so forgiving of the abuse you suffered that you need to batton down the hatches to keep yourself safe. That's a good strategy - as far as staying safe is concerned. But at some point, when you're ready, the self-exploration that helps you to grow is a worthwhile journey - one that I suspect you are already on. 

[boatman]

The fact that the victim has recognized they have some agency in the situation and can do something to remove themself from the abusive situation is certainly not to say that they should accept blame for the abuse. But it is empowering for a victim of abuse to understand the situation they're in and see how to leave it safely.

Clearly, it is important for someone being abused to exit the situation. I really don't think this was the point of Skip's original post though. The context of his post seemed to be the reduction of abusive relationships into mere compatibility issues, thereby making the victims of the abuse responsible for the unconscious psychological effects of abuse, abuse they were victims of.

Abuse does not just "happen at anytime" in healthy relationships. If someone is in a relationship in which abuse can happen at any time, that person needs to recognize the relationship is abusive and take steps accordingly.

Then how do you explain the number of people on this site that were in relationships where everything was fine and then had their significant other turn 180 degrees out of the blue? Are you insinuating they should have known what was going to happen, and would have if they were "healthy"? The unpredictability of said abuse is one of the factors that make it so damaging. Unless you can predict the future or have a time machine, there is no way to know when abuse will happen. It can happen anywhere and anytime. This notion that "healthy" people would have known ahead of time, or would not have suffered the unconscious psychological effects of abuse and just walked away after the first time, is unfounded and unfair to the victims in these relationships.

[jhkbuzz]

Then how do you explain the number of people on this site that were in relationships where everything was fine and then had their significant other turn 180 degrees out of the blue?

This is EXACTLY what happened to me. After 4 years, I felt like I had woken up next to a stranger.

And the answer to your question is, "I ignored the red flags that indicated I was becoming emotionally involved with someone who was unstable - and chugged full steam ahead into a relationship for reasons of my own."

I can see those red flags today; I've done the hard, introspective work that allows me to see NOW what I didn't see then. Others would have recognized them as they were happening and would have exited.

[boatman]

I would imagine that s/he would feel grateful for the assistance so s/he could avoid danger in the future. If it were me, I would appreciate the experienced insight - without immediately thinking that the person offering help was somehow blaming ME for the assault.

I don't think this is realistic.

It doesn't serve me well if all I do is focus on her (horrible) behavior; I've got to look at the decisions I made so I can take charge of my life - and never again fall prey to someone who is unstable.

I respect the way in which you are choosing to look at your life. I am at the other end of the spectrum whereby in healing from codependency, I've given up on the illusion of control. I accept and deal with what life hands me. My problem with the questions Skip put forth is that they assume that it's best for everyone to "take charge" of their life (and in my opinion become more codependent), and more importantly, they do not respect the effects that abuse and abusive relationships have on their victims. This puts members, especially newer ones that are trying to figure out what the hell just happened to them, in the position of exacerbating the blame they are already placing on themselves, when the truth is they are not culpable for ANY part of the abuse they suffered. Also important is that it makes this site less of a safe place to share, a disturbing direction to see it heading in.

[rfriesen]

My problem with the questions Skip put forth is that they assume that it's best for everyone to "take charge" of their life (and in my opinion become more codependent), and more importantly, they do not respect the effects that abuse and abusive relationships have on their victims.

This is good, in that I think we're getting clearer on the point that's actually in debate here. We all seem to agree that it's important for someone who's suffered through an abusive relationship not to put themselves in another. To the extent there are red flags and indicators that a relationship might turn abusive, it's empowering to know them and be able to act on them, to avoid suffering through a similar relationship in the future. This is forward-looking learning/empowerment and not about blaming the victim for past abuse.

I hear now how you read Skip's questions. I don't read them that way. I don't see the subtext you see, but at least now we know that's our real point of disagreement.

This puts members, especially newer ones that are trying to figure out what the hell just happened to them, in the position of exacerbating the blame they are already placing on themselves, when the truth is they are not culpable for ANY part of the abuse they suffered. Also important is that it makes this site less of a safe place to share, a disturbing direction to see it heading in.

I agree with jhkbuzz that one of the most important reasons members join is to learn what happened and how they can avoid ever suffering through another relationship like the one that brought them here. I'm sure you're not saying that the site should never talk about how to recognize and act on warning signs? Many of us stayed in relationships that, in hindsight, were already starting to cut deep wounds and that we needed to exit for our own well-being. I'm not alone here in wanting to understand why I was so blind to the harm the relationship was doing me.

A safe place to share can't be one where we simply avoid tackling difficult questions. It's important that we provide resources for members to understand their own behaviour, even when that's challenging. It's how we grow and learn But, certainly, that doesn't mean anyone HAS to tackle this exercise now. If an exercise is overwhelming or too painful now, it's best to leave it be, at least for the moment.

[Herodias]

"This is EXACTLY what happened to me. After 4 years, I felt like I had woken up next to a stranger."

 I felt that way too. I was used, abused and assaulted... .I read the book, "Why Does He Do That" and it explains how abusers manipulate people when they first get into a relationship. This could go for women or men. I think we all have different types of relationships and they are all on different spectrums within the diagnosis of a personality disorder. I think we may have to see that for some, it can feel like we were victims. We either ignored or didn't know about red flags, so there is that, but now we know. We were supposed to learn some huge lesson I suppose. I know this has changed me, it's just sad it couldn't have been a happy relationship like it started out. It could have easily been good instead of bad... .It seems like a huge waste of our time and lives when you find out you were duped, if this is the case. We don't all have that. Some pwBPD really think they love you and start out meaning well. Then everything changes... .some people like my ex, just use you and continue to date on the side... .looking to find the next best thing. Even though they all have similar traits, we have to remember we all have different experiences.

[boatman]

Honestly, I don't know what to say anymore. I don't feel heard or understood. I've tried to make my point and bring about some empathy for abuse victims using several different analogies, but I can't think of any other ways to explain it. It's striking to me that no new members spoke up on this thread. I would be interested to know why. It is clear to me that the senior members have a definitive idea of what they want the theoretical orientation of this site to be, which is an orientation that I vehemently disagree with.

[jhkbuzz]

The premise of Skip's original post, and his line of questioning is that it is important to look inward to see what behaviors on the part of the victim elicited, and/or perpetuated the abuse on the part of the abuser.

Perhaps that ^ is where we are having a difficult time communicating about this topic. No where in Skip's post does he suggest that the victim "elicited" abuse. That is your own history/distortions/struggles speaking.

I was in an 8 year r/s... .and for the first year or so after the b/u, all I could think about, talk about, and cry about in therapy was how emotionally wrecked I was. Someone who I loved and who I thought loved me was callous and cruel and lied and cheated and left me at the lowest I've ever been in my life - when I was absolutely devastated by everything she had done. I definitely FELT victimized; in many ways I was a victim of emotional abuse; and it took me a long time to heal from it. I'm still healing from it. But there was a subtle shift after around a year in therapy... .I simply stopped focusing on everything she did and started looking at myself. What drew me into the r/s. Why I stayed. Why I was so devastated for so long when it ended. Looking at my own history and understanding the choices that I made was actually EMPOWERING. I was gentle with myself (as was my therapist), and I began to look at how I had been victimized as a child and how all of that unresolved trauma was playing itself out in my adult r/s's. That journey was empowering, and I hope everything I've learned will guide me as I move into new r/s's and try to find a healthy, whole partner to share my life with.

If I had remained in a "victim" mindset, I never would have learned and grown as much as I have in the past year.

[Rebecca333]

Hi, Boatman.

I'm a fairly new member, and I do think people are really trying to hear you.  Perhaps this might help.  At least from the way I've understood the message of this site, the focus is on seeing on how one's own behavior might be perceived by a person who is mentally ill with BPD, and how trying new strategies might assist in either bringing some healing to a relationship, or in ending a relationship if needed.

I don't see trying communication strategies like validation means that I am responsible for the other person's behavior in any way.  I can't control them, and if they choose to act in an abusive way, I can then choose to leave, or ignore, or accept, or another option.  As for me, I will no longer allow my sister to be abusive towards me, although I did in the past.  I think that the strength of the people and resources here is that nobody pretends that they have all the answers.  We are all in a difficult situation.  I do not think anyone is about blaming people, least of all the victim of abuse.

I don't think your analogy totally applies, but let me try to follow on with it.  If I went out alone into the most dangerous part of my city, stark naked, in the middle of the night, and then was raped, would that really be my fault?  NO, NEVER.  The rapist would be 100% at fault.  Yes, my behavior would have made the rape more likely, would indicate that perhaps I was unhinged a bit, and would indicate that I needed help and information about appropriate self-protection.  AND - the rape would STILL and always be 100% the fault of the rapist.  The abuser is always responsible.  The rapist is completely to blame for having violently taken advantage of another human being who was in a vulnerable position.

So... .what the information here is about finding out where the most dangerous part of the city is (looking for red flags), not going out stark naked (having strategies and plans for dealing with mentally ill people), and not being out in the dark (learning what healthy and unhealthy behaviors look like.)

In my opinion, the people here are not blaming the victim.  They are trying to help victims that have been blindsided by loved ones who unfortunately have a horrible illness that affects behavior.  I hope this helps, and please remember this is just my opinion.  I speak only for myself, and I am not a mental health professional at all.  I hope that you might continue to use what portions of the site are helpful to you, and keep an open mind about where people are coming from.   

Peace,

Rebecca

[boatman]

I did my best to bring something I think is gravely important out into the open. I stated that I don't know of any other way to explain all of this. I even conceded that I see things much differently than the moderators of this website, I accept things the way they are. It is completely unnecessary to call my views "distorted".

[steelwork]

I did my best to bring something I think is gravely important out into the open.

Yes, you did, boatman. I hope you didn't feel disrespected. It sounds like you've done a lot of soul-searching, and I'm glad to hear that you no longer blame yourself for the suffering you endured.

This thread was split off from the questions Skip initially posed. He was bouncing off a couple of recent posts. In one, the poster said, "The problem was me." The other said (paraphrasing recklessly), "The problem was them." He identified these as two extremes on the scale. Black and white exist at the ends of the spectrum, and what's in between is more complex.

The first question: Was it black and white in your relationship or more a more gray?

It sounds like, for you, the answer is that it was black and white. That's an okay answer. There are no wrong answers. It's not everyone's answer, but I respect that it's yours. You might change your mind later, and you might not. Many others have found that contemplation, study, therapy, or some other manner of getting honest with themselves landed them somewhere on the gray scale, because that was their truth. It does not have to be your truth.

[fromheeltoheal]

Lively topic.  Here's my take: the original post was a query on who's at "fault" in the relationship and/or its demise and didn't address abuse, just "the relationship".  This portion of the responses was split off and has become a lively discussion on abuse, victims, and victim blaming. 

Abuse is abuse, and anger, depression, desire for retribution, all normal responses to abuse.  And for most of us our partners were more than abusers and the relationships complex, with us all playing a part in the dynamic.  And there is a tendency in early detachment to make it all about "them", the evil borderline, it was all their fault, they're crazy, whatever, again natural, normal responses to abuse, disrespect, the demise of the relationship, whatever.  And we can get stuck there.  If we make it all about the evil borderline and how they done us wrong we can rob ourselves of the gift of looking at our part in the proceedings, which is where the juice is, after we've been out a while, the fog has cleared, and the anger maybe subsided some.  So if we get stuck in borderline blaming, which many members do, and maybe the antithesis of victim blaming, we can lessen or negate our detachment and not take full advantage of the self-awareness and growth opportunities available in looking at our part in the relationship dynamic and its demise, as opposed to our part in any abuse that occurred, our part in the relationship dynamic being likely imperfect, to see what we can learn and how we can use it moving forward, as wiser, more experienced versions of ourselves.

Bit there's a time for that.  And there's also a time for blaming the borderline, the person with the mental illness, for what we endured in the relationship, which was complex and multifaceted and can't be boiled down to "abuser" and "victim", but nonetheless we're in pain, screw them, yadda.  And after we get that out of our system we have the opportunity to investigate a maybe more balanced view of what went on, which only helps us.

[boatman]

The things that bother me the most about this:

1) The lacking empathy for abuse victims.

2) The inflexibility among senior members to question their prevailing approach.

3) The emotionally unsafe environment that is created by #2, which I fear will keep new members from posting about the effects of their abusive relationship.

4) My decreased trust in a site that I once thought of as a valuable resource.

[stimpy]

About 24 hours after my discard, I was feeling pretty low, very upset, all the usual stuff. So I phoned a friend of mine to talk to, get some support, maybe some guidance. He wasn't in, but his wife was and we got talking. Turns out she is a trained psychotherapist, and by all accounts a good one. She is very empathetic, supportive, explained about “projection” and why my ex would do the pity play thing, and what it meant for my ex that she hated her mother and that this was a huge red flag. She also said that the hate she felt for her mother might also reflect the hate that she feels for herself, Worse still, that that hate then got projected onto me, especailly when I got too close to her.

Amazing, really helpful and insightful, I was lucky to have spoken to my friend's wife at this critical moment.

So a couple of months go by, I've done lots of research on BPD, NPD and ASPD, and I have a better inkling of what the hec just happened to me, but I am still not recovered, I am still upset, still thinking about my ex and wondering what to do next.

So I contact my friend's wife again and arrange to see her, with a view to starting a cycle of counselling. I go over to her place, and start talking about my ex and burst into tears, and I know things are really not good. My friend's wife, the psychotherapist, does what? Well she ignores my desire to talk about my ex and instead steers the conversation around to me. What does this mean for me, why did I stay with her, what about my FOO, what do I want.

DISASTER! I am not ready to talk about me, I don't want to talk about me, I want to talk about her. And I leave her office, and have never gone back. And I never will. To my way of thinking, she invalidated my emotions, at a critical time, and that is a form of abuse.

I wasn't over my ex, I needed to talk about my ex, what sort of person she was, why she would do these terrible things, what were her motivations, what made her behave as she did and above all I wanted someone to validate my experience, just to say that I did ok, that I couldn't have known any better, that I am a good person, that I got caught, like many others in the past, and no doubt many more in the future. I wanted someone to listen to my side of the story, to empathise, to understand, and like I say, to validate my feelings and my emotions and my experience.

And then, as if sent by some guardian angel, I met someone who had been through a remarkably similar experience, and indeed some of the experiences were identical, literally identical. How strange is that. Anyway, we became friends and she supported me through the process of healing. Though this new person is not a psychotherpaist, she is a trained nurse and a trained health care visitor, and she has direct experience of pwBPD and pwNPD through her work and some of her clientele are diagnosed BPD. She knows her stuff. And she listened to me, we exchanged stories, she validated my feelings, and she was ok with me going on and on and on about my ex, until, one day, and quite suddenly I didn't need to any more.  I understood the relationship and what had happened and in my mind, my ex moved from my present, to my past. She became a proper ex.

Then we began the next stage, stage two if you will, the bit about self analysis, about learning, about improving oneself, about making sure this would never ever happen again. And as we talked and got onto this stage, my learning is that although I have good boundaries, I didn't always enforce them. Put a different way, I didn't  always listen to my gut. Added to this, because of my FOO, I have a tendancy to try and fix, and I need to be careful of that, it is good sometimes, but not good as a way to live. So I need to pull back on the fixing, and just be a bit more “me” orientated.

That is a couple of big lessons.

I didn't invite the abuse, hec, when I was in the middle of the relationship, it didn't feel like abuse. Indeed, she would acccuse me of being the abuser. Hmmm nice, thanks for that!

So my take on this thread is that for me at least, there are two stages to recovery. In the first is about support, validation, listening, and the topic of conversation is pretty much the ex, the person who has wreaked so much damage.

Then come to stage 2, the self analysis, the lessons to be learned, not blame, never blame, just learning and improvement.

I had never met anyone like my ex, I was totally out of my depth and she tried to drown me. Now I can swim better, stronger, and I have learnt how to watch out for these sharks swimming close to the shoreline.

And that leaning played out over the weekend, I kicked someone out of my life who I know wanted us to get together. Why? Well she was not respectful, and didn't consider my feelings when making her decisions. Been there, done that, learnt the lesson, never again. So the weekend was pretty terrible, losing a potential girlfriend, especially someone who really liked me (or appeared to) is no fun at all. But if I'd gone along with her, hooked up with her, then my life might have become pretty terrible. And I'd be back on these boards, but likely on round two. So I enforced my boundary.

Lesson learned.

And I am still learning, still detaching from my ex, who's memory still pops into my head, even now. And I think she will do for some time to come. I like to think of it as part of my brain, reminding me not to go back and to be careful not to let it happen again and to learn to change, just a little, so that I stay protected.

It's just learning, there is no blame, but the learning for me at least had to be done when I was ready to learn and not before.

[valet]

I think the main thing going on here is that, in general, it is very hard to separate who we were and what happened to us in the past with who we are now and what we can do in the future.

To me, this topic is about the future. There is no agency for the past. I think that this is what Skip was getting at. The past is already ours, and we have to deal with it as best as we can. The future, however, is there for the taking.

We can out ourselves in a better position to enjoy that future if we are aware of our past, as well as our options in moving forward. How can we optimize that? We can do it by educating ourselves and understanding our environment, both now and then.

[VitaminC]

This is a great topic and it's really good to tease these subtleties out.  People have said some very insightful and honest things and my own contribution is simply this: While I thought about my relationship in terms of abuser and victim, I had only two modes to be in: anger / outrage at the injustice or a sense of weakness / patheticness (I don't think that's a word) which led to shame.

I knew that no one had locked me in a room and forced me to stay in the relationship as long as I did. I knew that I had been free to leave, but somehow couldn't.

I knew that the important thing for me was to ask a question. I knew that question was "why did I stay, once it no longer felt good"?

That's all.

There's still plenty of opportunity to construct the concepts along the lines of abuser / victim, but in my own particular case, that just does not apply. And one of my friends who still insists on using the word "abuse" when referring to that relationship really gets on my nerves about it. It's too simplistic to reduce it to that, even though I know where she's coming from and understand the general concept. But we're not talking, in the case of my conversations with my friend, about generalized applications of terms like abuse and victimhood. Because I was never really helpless - nobody physically forced me to stay. And since I am the only one that lives in and controls my mind, I had to look at what was going on in there for me.

I think that the theoretical orientation of this site is that all relationships are a dynamic between two individuals with their own agency. Exactly how the agency is enacted and responded to and what shifted dynamic that, in turn, gives rise to is, in itself, very complex and interesting.  There are as many dynamics as there are individuals, but if we take a meta-view, we can discern certain patterns.  It's those patterns that bring us all together here as every member tries to figure out if their recognition of a pattern matches, however loosely, with that of others.

If we mention "agency", we can also use the word "power", and the question could be formulated along the lines of who held what power and how it was used. For me, I can assign blame to my ex for some of his actions, and I do, in fact. I also assign blame to myself for some of mine (I was not 100% kind and sometimes played childish games that were not fair, no matter who I was playing with, nevermind a fragile pwBPD). The power shifted or the dynamic constantly morphed until I definitely felt "abused" at certain points, but I damn well stayed. That staying was motivated by certain things in my own psyche and I have found it to be more useful to me in the long run to look at those things rather than focus on the perceived or real abuse.

 

[boatman]

My friend's wife, the psychotherapist, does what? Well she ignores my desire to talk about my ex and instead steers the conversation around to me. What does this mean for me, why did I stay with her, what about my FOO, what do I want.

DISASTER! I am not ready to talk about me, I don't want to talk about me, I want to talk about her. And I leave her office, and have never gone back. And I never will. To my way of thinking, she invalidated my emotions, at a critical time, and that is a form of abuse.

Finally! Someone understands!

This is exactly what I've been trying to explain. I see this happen quite often on this site, particularly to newer members, many of whom never post again. If senior members want to conduct analysis, there should be a separate, private board for that. New members that are in a state of crisis should not be subjected to it. Such a board would be where Skip's post belongs.

[BPDFamily]

This thread was split-out from another thread so that the OP could be heard and discussed.

While passion about our positions is welcomed, it's important that hosts not disparage the good-faith opinions of other members, moderators, or groups of members (e.g., ambassadors, senior members).

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[Skip]

What is the tipping point for when the behaviors of others goes from
"Being pushed to grow" to
"I don't like this" to
"being a form of abuse"?

If I'm a teenager and my parents don't give me a car, is that abuse?
If my girlfriend is upset and withdraws/shuts down, is that abuse?
If my coach pushes me to run harder and longer, is that abuse?
If my therapist encourages me to look at my own life with the same impartiality of a  third party, is that abuse?
If someone suggest that after you have been raped, to make a list of places that are risky and avoid them (e.g., the park at night), is that abuse (victim blaming)?

While its possible that all of the above could be "abusive" in certain cases, most of the times these things are not.

We should strive to be aware that there is a tipping point and be willing to challenge ourselves on where that point lies . And know that we are not always the best at doing this for ourselves - this is how the perspective of a support group helps us.

Should that teen who doesn't get the car feel abused and a victim? Or should he examine all sides of the matter and come to a balanced conclusion. Maybe getting a car is a lot of entitlement of his part. Maybe his father is verbally abusive. A balanced perspective would be "I'm overly entitled and my dad is verbally abusive". An imbalanced perspective is "not getting the car is abusive".

This is really hard to do - but it is important part of growth.

How? Well the latter viewpoint (in the example) is likely to contribute to helplessness and depression. The former is likely to be motivation to get a job.