The Good Days are the Worst

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

One week ago I had felt that I was approaching a final determination to begin divorce proceedings.  I had arrived at a point at which I felt that although I didn't have the "smoking gun" or absolute clear reason to do it, it was just time to stop being undecided, and tally up my life's good and bad - and start living my life in a new direction. 

Then the weekend came by, and I had a fine few days with my wife.  Fine meaning asymptomatic for BPD traits. It seemed like life was livable - even married.  I knew it wasn't romantic or emotionally fulfilling, but, for everyday living and sustaining our roles as parents, we could survive together.  I also have gotten to the point that I accept my role in the past turmoil.  I've gotten a handle on my mindset and behavior, and that has helped a lot.

That got me thinking that good days like those might be doing more damage than the days of silent anger, passive aggression, helplessness, rages, blame, projection, and manipulation.   

Right now a string of bad days would convince me to leave.  But, throw in a good day, and I catch my breath and hang on again.

Just thinking out loud right now.  Has anyone else gone through this?
How did you see it through to deciding to stay or go?

[SamwizeGamgee]

One week ago I had felt that I was approaching a final determination to begin divorce proceedings.  I had arrived at a point at which I felt that although I didn't have the "smoking gun" or absolute clear reason to do it, it was just time to stop being undecided, and tally up my life's good and bad - and start living my life in a new direction. 

Then the weekend came by, and I had a fine few days with my wife.  Fine meaning asymptomatic for BPD traits. It seemed like life was livable - even married.  I knew it wasn't romantic or emotionally fulfilling, but, for everyday living and sustaining our roles as parents, we could survive together.  I also have gotten to the point that I accept my role in the past turmoil.  I've gotten a handle on my mindset and behavior, and that has helped a lot.

That got me thinking that good days like those might be doing more damage than the days of silent anger, passive aggression, helplessness, rages, blame, projection, and manipulation.   

Right now a string of bad days would convince me to leave.  But, throw in a good day, and I catch my breath and hang on again.

Just thinking out loud right now.  Has anyone else gone through this?
How did you see it through to deciding to stay or go?

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Sam, It's stressful because you're walking through a mine field.  Even on a good day, you know the mines are still there.  When things were calm, I would get hopeful, yet those hopes proved illusory when the explosions started going off again.  It's an insidious cycle, my friend.  In Psych 101, we learned that intermittent reinforcement is the strongest conditioning, per BF Skinner.  Same could be said for a BPD r/s.  Suggest you take a bird's eye view of your situation, where you are above and looking down at the landscape of your r/s.  Maybe that will help you to find your path through the BPD woods?  LJ

[Verbena]

Yes, I have. There was a lull last spring after I asked my ex several times to go to counseling. He flat refused not only counseling but to have any kind of meaningful discussion with me either. He either didn't know what I was talking about, denied everything, or just gave me the silent treatment.

So for awhile, he seemed more tolerable and I wasn't sure I would really be going down the oath of divorce. Or maybe I just hadn't accepted the inevitable yet.

My divorce was final last Seitember 2--Thirty-foot years, one week, and five days later. I still can't believe I held out that long.

[formflier]

I'm attempting to organize my life independently of my wife.  Basically strong boundaries to protect from the BPDish stuff, but with flexibility for when there are good days... I can enjoy those if it want to.

Part of my radical acceptance is a realization that my wife is not wired for a consistent close intimate relationship.  When I look over history, when there were periods of many months where generally things were going well, that is a precursor to some big "sabotage".

While I'm not responsible for my wife, I am responsible for my part in the relationship and when my wife is "pulling" me closer I can make a decision to stay somewhat aloof. 

Relatively speaking, this has stabilized things... .somewhat.  Perhaps it just lengthens the cycle before she needs to "blow out" the built up emotional pressure.

Not sure if any of this can be applied to your r/s and your experience... .but I hope so.  Realize the good days are good... and the bad are bad.  Feel them both.

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

It's clear from your responses that you all get it.  Thanks.
I know it's a cycle, all too well now.  The trouble is, I'm waiting for some next major blow up to justify divorce.  But, I'm good at avoiding / preventing them.  I also appreciate the good days, since I remember the bad days.  I used to get over the bad days and too easily forgive and forget - or more likely, take all the blame.  My awareness is better.

I don't ever feel deluded that she'll recover, or we'll have a marriage like the one I want.  I got down to radical acceptance.  I'm just tired of radically accepting things always. 

[teapay]

Yes, I have those feeling at times too. 

I have also organized a lot of my life to be independent from my W.  This is good for both of us. I spend my time enjoying my life, taking care of my family and keeping busy and active like anyone else.   I have set up boundaries to protect both myself and the family from BPD behaviors, work to steer the family in the right direction of more normalcy, encourage my W whenever she is heading in the right direction and for now ignore the rest if it doesn't really impact anything even if I might not like it.  I don’t have a high requirement for emotional intimacy and I am pretty secure in myself.  I don't pine too much after green grass somewhere else.  I make no commitments to staying.  If we are not heading in a better direction or headed for a fall, I’ll probably move to dissolve the marriage, which only gets easier as my kids get older and need for child care gets less.  But even if we do split and dissolve the current status of family, if possible, it is still in everyone in the family's interest to get my W in a better spot, more independent and better able to take care of herself and less of a drag on everyone else.

[flourdust]

I reached the point where I was no longer able to pretend things were OK on the good days.

Part of what keeps us in these BPD relationships is denial -- when bad things aren't happening, we are able to bury the negative feelings and memories. I lived in that mode for a long time. During good stretches (months ... .then weeks ... .then days ... .then, finally, hours or minutes), I would tell myself that the bad stuff was over, and if I just was extra careful, I could prevent it from happening again.

At the end, though, I wasn't able to believe that lie, and so my anxiety during the good days did not abate. I could not pretend that things were OK.

[CrossroadsGuyMn]

Samwise,

I'm right there with you pal.

When things are good, it just feels like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.  The longer the 'good' phase lasts, the worse I feel.

Which has put me where it sounds like Flourdust is.

The difference for me this time, is that I'm finally DOING something about it all.  Participating on here, seeing a therapist, writing a journal, and reading about the disorder. 

Its been stated before, but by doing these things it helps me maintain perspective of the overall landscape, rather than just a few blades of grass so to speak.

Also, reading about what others are going through, and how similar all of our situations are helps me to realize how pervasive and predictable this disorder is.

I'm not all better, and I have still not made a decision on whether I should stay or go... .but... .I'm working on it.  And working on it has helped me feel like I am progressing towards getting out of the mud, rather than 'wallowing' in the mire.

[empath]

Honestly, I'm tired, too. Tired of being the stability; tired of being detached emotionally; tired of the drama and chaos (whoops, I forgot a payment that I scheduled and now we have overdrafts... .); tired of having to stay 5 steps ahead of the conversation; tired of having to be the supervisory parent. I realized a few years ago that the thing that is 'stable' is the instability - I can trust that things will change.

When there are good days, I remind myself that it won't stick around. We can't go back to the way things were and I was ignoring the damage that was being done. I can't fix it or make it better. I like my life a lot better when he isn't hovering around and thinking we are 'reconciling' because other people are pressuring him to reconcile (to him it means I'm doing stuff with him).

[SamwizeGamgee]

Tired is a fitting word right now for me.  I figured out BPD.  I cracked the code, but deciphered the message that says I can pick from chaos or quiet despiration.

[formflier]

Can you explain quiet desperation more?

FF

[michel71]

Right now a string of bad days would convince me to leave.  But, throw in a good day, and I catch my breath and hang on again.

My friend... .I lived this way for 2 1/2 years. I can so relate to your post. The cognitive dissonance was horrible. I am at the point where I am trying to understand how/why I hung in so long allowing myself to suffer in so much pain. I actually remember feeling guilty when the good days would come thinking that I was over-reacting to the bad days and they were not all 'THAT BAD' until of course they were again. That is why this is crazy making. Like i said though, I was a party to this. I allowed it.

[teapay]

My W behaviors helped me make decisions on where my boundaries would be and that a leaving boundary would be okay, even with 5 minor kids in tow.  Some of her behaviors were getting extreme and she was talking about leaving herself, so I kind of decided splitting would be fine and started doing what I needed to make that possible and protect myself and kids.  But since I was heading down that road anyway, I also decided to confront the BPD and the behaviors more directly and try to move myself and family in a direction that was healthier and more to my liking.  I figured if it didn’t work and the whole thing blow up and dissolve, I would still be able to move myself and family in a direction that was healthier and more to my liking anyway.  So hitting that leaving okay point was kind of empowering.  The pressure of confrontation, both from me initially, and then from others, and the potential dissolution of the family, has influenced my W to make some progress addressing some of her own issues and many issues contentious in the marriage.  This is good for her and benefits us all.  There no guarantee of progress in spouse, though, by this approach.  It could just as easily unravel depending on the players.  The guarantee, however, is that either way I would have more control of my life and would be able to move myself and family in a direction that was healthier and more to my liking.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Teapay - I reached a state of powerfulness (I guess empowerment is the word) when I got to the point that to me, everything is on the table.  When I had studied it out long enough to say that divorce is an option that I can do, and survive, my state of mind changed.  Changing the state of mind changes the state of being I think.  I have not said the word divorce to my wife, so it's not that we've talked about it, but, it holds no fear for me now.  Hassles and hurdles, yes, but no fear and blind avoidance.  I think that's what you are talking about about a leaving boundary. 

I realized this applied for all the many ways I was open to emotional blackmail by her.  I got over what I needed to, and let go.  I pictured it as holding a rope.  If she pulls where I don't want to go, then I let go of my end.  I disregard her attempts at guilt, shame, fear, arguments, and other threats.  This path means a lot of disconnection, but, it happens to fit my philosophy which is heavily becoming Buddhist-influenced.  I am more aware, accepting, and releasing.  Which goes to @Michel71 - I stopped the pain I was in mostly by this process of letting go.  I learned that anger is a secondary emotion.  I had to feel something first that then "made" me mad.  I changed how I choose this - and live more mindfully now and choose my battles, so to speak. 

However, I am not a superhuman monk, yet, nor reached full enlightenment, yet.  I am an otherwise reasonable guy trapped in an unsustainable relationship, only my half of which I can control. @FF - Which is why I respond also the description of living a life of quiet desperation (which I first recall hearing from a Pink Floyd song, but I have to credit Thoreau with the apt definition). "“The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation. From the desperate city you go into the desperate country, and have to console yourself with the bravery of minks and muskrats. A stereotyped but unconscious despair is concealed even under what are called the games and amusements of mankind... ." - H.D.T. Civil Disobedience

[Lucky Jim]

I figured out BPD.  I cracked the code, but deciphered the message that says I can pick from chaos or quiet despiration.

Hey Sam, Suggest you entertain the possibility of other choices that might lead to different outcomes, such as greater happiness.  Who says you have to suffer and be miserable?  That's no way to live, my friend.  I should know, because I was once in your shoes.  What would greater happiness look like to you?  How might that feel?  What are some other choices that you have?  It's a long game and there's still time to make changes.

LuckyJim

[SamwizeGamgee]

LJ - I'm doing okay on my personal happiness. I've filled my life with other things, and also enjoy distance running which burns a lot of stress and is good therapy, and activity.  The real elephant in the room that you may be referring to, is to get a divorce.  I am ready to entertain that, but with the kids involved I'll have to be vary careful balancing what greater happiness means.
I do not want to look at life 20 years from now and tell myself, "well, shucks, I guess not everyone gets to have a good life after all."  Which is more of the sense of quiet desperation.

[Lucky Jim]

Samwize, OK, good, hang in there.  Everyone has to find his/her own path through the BPD Forest.  Trouble is, I lost my way for a while there, as I think I've related.  Whether divorce is the right move for you is something only you can answer.  What I am suggesting is that greater happiness is a factor to be weighed along with everything else.  Many here on the Conflicted Board fear the unknown, with reason, yet that's also where the magic happens (as they say).  I don't know what changes would make your life better, but I do know that change is possible.

LJ 

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thanks. I know lots of people stick with it through a lot worse.  But, I'm really doubting I can make it.  In the grand scheme of things, I know I've got it good overall.  But, I want out of the forest of BPD.

[Grey Kitty]

I know lots of people stick with it through a lot worse.  But, I'm really doubting I can make it.  In the grand scheme of things, I know I've got it good overall.  But, I want out of the forest of BPD.

Staying because "others have it worse" is a really messed up idea. And your description of "good times" being not particularly pleasant, just that the abuse isn't happening doesn't recommend it.

That said, I'm trying to remember--are you raising children with your wife? If so, then the question of what is best for your children is a very valid one... .and that can cut either way toward staying or leaving, depending on circumstances.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Raising five kids, youngest 6, oldest almost 18, and at college.  That's pretty much what keeps me stuck - not wanting to ignite harmful chaos of divorce and damage the kids.

Part of the madness is that to the outside my wife looks like a great mom.  She will likely have a strong bid for primary custody and stick me with the bills. I don't think divorce courts listen to husband's concerns about invalidation, enmeshment, parentification, cyclic nature of abuse, BPD behaviors. 

However, I'm in the middle of reading "Understanding the Borderline Mother" which is augmenting my concerns for the kids' welfare and makes me want to split.

[Grey Kitty]

So to put a harsh light on it... .

Your wife's behavior toward you ranges from bad (aka abusive) to not so bad / neutral. With very little "good" to make up for it. Why you are still in that marriage would be a really tough question about that.

However, if it is tolerable, you probably want to evaluate your marriage in terms of whether it is better for your kids or not. That's a lot more complicated.

I'm assuming that your wife doesn't treat your children as badly as she treats you.

That kind of evaluation should be based on how your wife is as a mom from the inside view... .not from the outside. And try to compare that to what things would be like with split custody. Or if your wife got majority custody. And talk to a good lawyer or three to figure out what the possible and likely outcomes are.

Your children are also learning what a "normal" romantic relationship (i.e. you and their mom) looks like. I'm guessing it isn't anything you want your children to be a part of!

That's pretty much what keeps me stuck - not wanting to ignite harmful chaos of divorce and damage the kids.

If you were talking about your marriage sans kids, I would use the word stuck. Given that you have your kids welfare to consider, rather than saying you are stuck, say that you are choosing to maintain a difficult marriage for their benefit.

Realizing that you ARE making a choice feels a lot better than being stuck. And when you think of it that way, you may realize what limits you have that would make you choose otherwise.

[formflier]

However, I'm in the middle of reading "Understanding the Borderline Mother" which is augmenting my concerns for the kids' welfare and makes me want to split.

So... .can you expand on this and your reasoning.  How does reading that book make you want to split?  How does it help the kids?

This is certainly something I evaluate from time to time. 

Do you have anyone close to you that has divorced from a Borderline and "seen how that goes"? 

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

Tough questions my friends!
GreyKitty - word choice on my part, but stuck is not the right one.  I do agree with what you are saying.  I make a rational decision to stay on account of the kids. I'm okay with that choice for the time being.  Nevertheless, it feels like Stuck since I'm not going anywhere forward.

My wife treats me very neutrally most of the time.  I accept that, since I have become much more distant through boundaries, it's too be expected probably.  At times, I do see that she does not act well with the kids either.  Sometimes it's bad, and sometimes, it just more neutral.  I do know that she undermines their individuality to a large degree.  In addition to many other subtle behaviors and words.  I think my response is a good balance / safe haven for the kids.  I'll usually go forward with what I do as a parent in spite of what she does - I think that gives the kids a more normal experience.  Ironically =, I sense that she mimics me, or takes my lead in things I do and the calls I make in parenting.  That can be good for the kids.  If she reflects things I do, and it works for the kids, that should be good. 

All this adds up to saying that I should stay and be present and calm to temper the mom.  However, I am just getting worn down.  I can't last forever.  You bring up a good point as to question what I am doing as a role model as a "romantic" relationship.  I had to quote"" that word, since I laugh sarcastically inside thinking about my marriage being called a romantic relationship.  Good luck if the kids model this as their relationship.  Actions speak louder than words, since they all seem to avoid any dating or pairing off.  They've learned how to be automatons.

@FF - I'd have to pick apart the book to give you a full answer.  The book really has helped me see things from the child's point of view (and the mom's).  It describes the important developmental achievements that happen while bonding with mom - and not bonding with mom, or when that bond is betrayed.  It just scares me to think about the damage done / being done / around the corner.  Fear and sadness for the kids.  All covered by their good behavior, and mom's excellent act.  It makes me feel like I'm leaving my kids on a sinking ship, or a poison filled atmosphere.  And, maybe I'm being too sensitive.   

You ask if I know someone divorced from a borderline, and that made me chuckle too.  For any man who knows the word borderline will happily use the word to described the woman he divorced - almost a punchline now.  Most people dont' know about the emotional and verbal aspects of abuse, nor Borderline as a condition.  I don't know of someone close to me who divorced a (actual) borderline.  I glean what wisdom I can from this and similar group forums.

Thank you all for the chance to talk and listen.  I always think about these comments for a long time.

[formflier]

  It makes me feel like I'm leaving my kids on a sinking ship, or a poison filled atmosphere.  

My thoughts exactly... .

Which is where I found it hard to understand how learning this would lead you to want to split... .unless of course... .you believed you could get full custody.

It comes down to the basic question of (assuming half time), will the kids be better off to spend half time in a healthy environment with no bad influence and half time immersed in poison... .or do you try to be around some to "blunt" the poison as it is being applied.

For instance:  If I'm around, I can... and have... .stopped my wife from "instructing" the kids in various hate filled things, usually with a kernel of religious truth somewhere in there.

I haven't changed my wife's view at all... .and I'm ok with that.

The key is that it stopped coming out of my wife's mouth and into my kids ears, followed by several days of teaching that "balanced" the poison.

For me:  I've had a front row seat to the destruction of my nieces and nephews at the hands of my sister in law ... with my wife's FOO helping out.  Granted, the divorced father of my nieces and nephews is a bit of a passivist... .and hasn't legally fought back like I thought he should.

Anyway... .it's a tough call for us all. 

FF

[teapay]

How do your kids feel about your W and how do they view her behaviors and her treatment of them and you?  Good, bad, indifferent?

Similarly, how do your kids feel about you and how do they view your behaviors and her treatment of them and her?  Good, bad, indifferent?

Do you kids tend to mimic your behavior or your W?

Would you expect any of these to change if you obtained 50/50 custody?

[Lucky Jim]

All this adds up to saying that I should stay and be present and calm to temper the mom.  However, I am just getting worn down.  I can't last forever.

Hey Sam, I can relate.  I justified staying for the benefit of my kids because I believed that they (the kids) deserved a stable parent in their lives to offset the turbulent emotions of their mother, my BPDxW.  I thought (and still think) that they deserved my best efforts.  So, like you, I persevered.

One day my T asked me whether I thought that I had tried everything to save my marriage?  I said, Yes.  She replied, I think so, too.  It was highly unusual for her to share a personal opinion, so it got my attention.   

It's true: a BPD r/s can be exhausting and I agree that you can't last forever in those conditions.  I found out the hard way.  So be careful, my friend.  Suggest you listen to your gut feelings.

LuckyJim

[empath]

It makes me feel like I'm leaving my kids on a sinking ship, or a poison filled atmosphere. 

I know. It's one thing to do what's right for me, but when we have kids in the mix, things get more complicated. I know that I can't leave without the kids -- or without our youngest (our only minor right now). My plans now always have her best interest at heart - I've had to do some very uncomfortable things because of that. My realization is that as long as the courts are not involved, I have a lot of freedom in how I handle the situation. I've also asked questions of a lawyer about it, just in case I need that.

[formflier]

 

I totally get the feeling of being worn down.

I'm still not used to be "selfish", but I ... ."more often than not"... .put myself first and take walks, go to the gym, do something special for myself.  My goal is to "be at my best" when my kids are around and to have time when they are not around to think deeply about priorities and next steps.

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

Everyone's comments are appreciated.  It still gives me more to think about.  I think we can all share in the double edged sword that staying or leaving in order to protect the kids.  I still have to dig deeper into thinking about it.  But, I think what I sense is that mom's personality, and whatever damage that causes, is going to happen regardless.  She can undermine me whether I'm in the house or not.  Being a waif type she can live as though life is too hard and too scarry no matter where I am.  If she was physically threatening,  then my presence could literally be life saving, if she would rage at them, I could intervene. But, I can't vaccinate from a toxic home while I live there.  For me to say this is a radical revelation. 
She will still feed them, check homework, and so forth.  So will I, as I have been doing for years. 
I'm at that stage where anything might happen, and I'm not held in fear right now.

[lpheal]

Given that you have your kids welfare to consider, rather than saying you are stuck, say that you are choosing to maintain a difficult marriage for their benefit.

Realizing that you ARE making a choice feels a lot better than being stuck. And when you think of it that way, you may realize what limits you have that would make you choose otherwise.

Thank you for stating this. My situation feels very similar. If there were not a child involved, I would have already said enough. Together or apart I have to communicate with my wife to raise our child, so I may as well work on my communication skills now while together until I can figure out the best long term plan.