Where is the obligation to stay, and where does it end?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I read a post by Skip in response to Romantic Fool
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=314338.0

When reading that, I realized how bad I have been in my marriage of late.  I have just about emotionally packed and vacated the premise.  I'm so far removed that my wife will get about no chance at connection, intimacy of any form, even conversation.  I feel like I went past the point of feeling a few years ago.  I moved to basement to finally find peace two and an half years ago.  I found I slept better, and "moving out" was essential to my healing and self-care.  I established, or fell back to, very impersonal communications.  I consider my behavior at home with my wife to be "business casual."  We have to coordinate for kids and household, but, beyond that, I feel like my very essence is still recoiling away from much contact from my wife. 

I long for an end to this.  I can't really bear the thought or repair, reconnection, or doing what it takes to live together - even somewhat normally.  Certainly I'm still drawn to her out of a residual desire for married life.  Some days I just long for my emotional and physical needs to be met, that I don't care about my lack of decision and direction.  And I am just about broken from the emotional and physical state of destitution I live in now.  But, I just can't feel enough to do all the work, especially knowing that it would just be and extension of the past 20 years of me giving and not getting, and meanwhile being blamed, accused, and stonewalled.  I think I'm making preemptive stonewalling and staying closed because of how I was treated for so many years. 

I know I should forgive, and I feel that I have spiritually and emotionally forgiven her (and myself) and I don't bear grudges.  I can't use my presence to cause her to suffer just because she has BPD traits and I'm hurt from them.  I'm ready for a positive meaningful relationship.  However, I also know in my soul that nothing can be much better than it was in the past.  I don't feel that I'm being bad in order to punish or retaliate, but, rather, I have shut down, closed and locked the doors to save my life.  I also think I might have shut down in order to become boring, uninteresting, and easy to divorce. 

When I stopped conflict and tension in the marriage, I did notice that it threw off my wife, and didn't feed her emotional need for conflict-as-connection.  I withheld, and denied her one of the most sustaining needs, her need for contention, power over, and verbal conflict.  I figure it's her childhood security blanket - that I no longer provide.  I wonder if this was me being passive aggressive in my own right - taking away what she thrived on.  However, I don't really think continuing to have conflict to feed her need for connection could be called the right thing to do.  But, taking that away really tipped the relationship. 

Skip's comments enlighten me that I can / could do so much to make things better.  Maybe I can make things better again.  I know that I can.  I wonder if I should.  And I doubt that I have the desire - even if it's the right and moral thing to do.  I am so stoic and duty bound in my personality that I've stayed on the sinking ship of marriage for 20 years.  It's an easy suggestion that I stay even longer, but, I also want to believe that my duty is done. Though I can make things better, should I do so?

I'm just opening this for your thoughts, and sharing mine. Thanks for reading.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I read a post by Skip in response to Romantic Fool
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=314338.0

When reading that, I realized how bad I have been in my marriage of late.  I have just about emotionally packed and vacated the premise.  I'm so far removed that my wife will get about no chance at connection, intimacy of any form, even conversation.  I feel like I went past the point of feeling a few years ago.  I moved to basement to finally find peace two and an half years ago.  I found I slept better, and "moving out" was essential to my healing and self-care.  I established, or fell back to, very impersonal communications.  I consider my behavior at home with my wife to be "business casual."  We have to coordinate for kids and household, but, beyond that, I feel like my very essence is still recoiling away from much contact from my wife. 

I long for an end to this.  I can't really bear the thought or repair, reconnection, or doing what it takes to live together - even somewhat normally.  Certainly I'm still drawn to her out of a residual desire for married life.  Some days I just long for my emotional and physical needs to be met, that I don't care about my lack of decision and direction.  And I am just about broken from the emotional and physical state of destitution I live in now.  But, I just can't feel enough to do all the work, especially knowing that it would just be and extension of the past 20 years of me giving and not getting, and meanwhile being blamed, accused, and stonewalled.  I think I'm making preemptive stonewalling and staying closed because of how I was treated for so many years. 

I know I should forgive, and I feel that I have spiritually and emotionally forgiven her (and myself) and I don't bear grudges.  I can't use my presence to cause her to suffer just because she has BPD traits and I'm hurt from them.  I'm ready for a positive meaningful relationship.  However, I also know in my soul that nothing can be much better than it was in the past.  I don't feel that I'm being bad in order to punish or retaliate, but, rather, I have shut down, closed and locked the doors to save my life.  I also think I might have shut down in order to become boring, uninteresting, and easy to divorce. 

When I stopped conflict and tension in the marriage, I did notice that it threw off my wife, and didn't feed her emotional need for conflict-as-connection.  I withheld, and denied her one of the most sustaining needs, her need for contention, power over, and verbal conflict.  I figure it's her childhood security blanket - that I no longer provide.  I wonder if this was me being passive aggressive in my own right - taking away what she thrived on.  However, I don't really think continuing to have conflict to feed her need for connection could be called the right thing to do.  But, taking that away really tipped the relationship. 

Skip's comments enlighten me that I can / could do so much to make things better.  Maybe I can make things better again.  I know that I can.  I wonder if I should.  And I doubt that I have the desire - even if it's the right and moral thing to do.  I am so stoic and duty bound in my personality that I've stayed on the sinking ship of marriage for 20 years.  It's an easy suggestion that I stay even longer, but, I also want to believe that my duty is done. Though I can make things better, should I do so?

I'm just opening this for your thoughts, and sharing mine. Thanks for reading.

[flourdust]

Hi, Samwize. What are you asking for - permission to divorce? An order to reconcile?

Maybe you should be asking yourself the questions -- why can't you decide? What is stopping you? What can you do to come to a decision?

[SamwizeGamgee]

Right to the point Flourdust.  Thanks.  Your questions sting a little.  Yes, I need an order to stay, and yes, permission to leave.

Society, religion, custom, habit, convention, finances, logistics, child care - all provide the orders to stay and reconcile. 

My revised feelings, awareness of my unhappiness, futility of the hope for change, acceptance of the finality of BPD (and even without the diagnosis, just the facts of her core personality without an acronym), rejection of my life of stoicism, all provide the permission to leave.

I am really stuck on making others happy, or more successful.  As crazy at it sounds I don't want to hurt my wife's feelings.  She's happier when I carry on what feels like the charade of marriage.

I ask myself the questions you list, and myself can't find an answer.  Why can't I decide (or more true, why can't I act on deciding to divorce), What is stopping me (Fear?)? What can I do to come to decision?  I have beat those questions up over and over.  I do know that my current tactic of trying to live healthy so that I simply outlive my wife is not the best sounding plan to be happy.

[flourdust]

Ugh. I get it. I have been there.

I think I've told you that my approach was to creep up to divorce. I gave myself dates in the future for making the decision -- that took some of the pressure off, because I had committed to not making any decision until those dates. (I say dates, multiple, because I procrastinated and hit the snooze bar on my first deadline.) But I did use that time to make preparations. Divorce is a process -- often, a loong process. I did research, interviewed attorneys, collected evidence for a custody evaluation, collected financial information, drafted proposals for separating property and parenting plans, began to think about how to structure things post-divorce. I did all of that before pulling the trigger.

At the end of the road, though, you still have to make that decision. But doing all that preparation and visualization helped me be ready for it ... .and to become comfortable with which decision I wanted to make.

So... .nobody will order you to stay, and nobody will give you permission to leave. It's still up to you. But you can get some help in developing that decision-making skill. A therapist or a trusted friend who you can talk to in confidence is a good resource for focusing your thoughts and fears. Do you have one?

Finally, your comment on living healthy to outlive your wife made me laugh. It reminds me of a Key & Peele sketch. They're playing bank robbers, meeting in their lair to plan the perfect crime.

Key: "Here's what we do ... .we start working at the bank. Then... .we show up. Every day. We do the work. We earn their trust. They'll never know what we're really up to."

Peele: "And how do we get the money?"

Key: "That's the beauty of it. They... .put... .the money in our accounts. Every week. And after 25 or 30 years, we walk out the front door with the money, and they never know what happened."

Peele: "... .THAT'S CALLED A JOB!"

[ForeverDad]

Society, religion, custom, habit, convention, finances, logistics, child care - all provide the orders to stay and reconcile.

What is of substantial importance is whether your wife is in productive and progressing therapy.  While solid results seeing improvement/recovery would take at least months and probably be years or permanently, what if anything have you seen thus far?  Or is she still determined to remain stuck in Denial, Blaming and Blame Shifting?

In my experience, that was the most important factor for me.  If there was realistic hope of recovery or substantive improvement, I might have made different choices.  But she didn't want therapy, counseling or reconciliation.  In effect, I concluded I had no other choice.

Of course I had a preschooler and had to decide what framework was practical, even possible, for me in the next 15 years.  Facing death threats, even if only verbal, and potential police and CPS involvement (which did happen) I didn't see any indication she would change for the better.  And I had to admit and accept that hope and dreams had turned out to be unhealthy in the reality I was facing.  Yes, I too was hesitant to end things.  I kept Hoping and Dreaming reality would return.  But they didn't.  Aftdr 3 years of gradually worsening behaviors, I was forced to make a choice.  Ponder how your situation is different?

I have a deeply religious background.  I had been a religious volunteer for over two decades in my youth.  I had also been an elder for most of my married life, until 2004 when I was counseled that taking care of my family was more important.  I wanted to fix things, I tried to fix things but I just couldn't.  My best friend in the early years of marriage changed little by little over the years and especially after we had our child, an immense trigger for her that reminded her of her childhood.  My only choice left was to separate, then divorce, when I accepted my parenting was at risk and I wasn't going to avoid police, court and CPS involvement.  Though all in God's congregation ought to be examples, it also recognizes reasons for separation/divorce... .for infidelity (Jesus was quoted as saying remarriage was acceptable if that happened) and for self protection and for providing financially.  So my conscience was clear, though reluctantly and with some angst.

Ponder why it is so hard for you.  Have you been able to Let Go the Guilt or Obligated feelings?  Do you feel that your choices in the past few years, well-intentioned to survive but somewhat sucky with regrets, nix your options?

As crazy at it sounds I don't want to hurt my wife's feelings.  She's happier when I carry on what feels like the charade of marriage.

But is that charade healthy?  Does she really appreciate it?  Does she reciprocate?  Just as only she can fix herself, similarly only you can fix your issues.  You appeasing or whatever by being half-in and half-out of the relationship... .is it helping either one of you?  The general consensus here is that either a relationship should be (reasonably) healthy or else ended.  The reason so many here have divorced is that the relationship (1) couldn't be made healthy and (2) BPD in the mix means either improvement & committed or else end the (dysfunctional) relationship.

As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."

I am a strong proponent for marriage but when it is unhealthy and even dangerous I also accept that the unhealthy dysfunction should not continue.  Also, I pondered how my indecisive example might cloud my child's perception of what a reltionship should be like.  I didn't want him to choose a mate who was like her (in her acting-out behaviors) or me (in appeasing or tolerating them).

Sorry, you have found out that half measures generally don't work.  A question to ask yourself... .Why can't you stand up for yourself (or make a decision), sort of limping along on two opinions (Biblical reference from 1 Kings 18)?

[takingandsending]

Samwize,

Try to trust that you are in the process of ending a very long relationship. It takes time to come to the emotional resolution. Your brain gets there ahead of your heart. And grief, remorse, feelings of guilt are pretty normal. I spent a lot of time with my T wondering/asking if there was more that I could do. It's been a long, long habitual pattern to do, to fix, to make right. It doesn't go away overnight.

Your gut already tells you that you have no stomach for making more effort to reconcile. Probably wise to listen to that voice within you. But allow yourself the time you need to reach enough emotional resolution that you can begin to take steps to end the marriage. You are not doing this rashly, out of anger or betrayal. You simply are at a point where you recognize that things are not going to get any better, as ForeverDad points out. You can only control what you can control. Your wife would have to work very hard to make changes, and you cannot choose that path for her.

Are you seeing a T for yourself?

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thank you all for the comments, and thought. 
I am making visits to a T, for myself alone.  As a couple we went to one marriage counseling session, that was good, but I was pulling punches and letting my wife run with it - but that's an elaborate story for another time. I make visits once or twice a month usually.  The good / not good thing about therapy is that the T doesn't tell me what to do.  But, in a way, what I needed most was a space and time set aside to talk.  Until two years ago, I spoke to no one about marriage, and how terrible I felt about it.  I realize now that my foundation in the marriage has been dishonesty with my feelings.

I am going to reflect on things more, with the above comments in mind.
Thanks again. 

[flourdust]

No, the therapist shouldn't tell you what to do, but s/he can help you make that decision. I suggest asking explicitly for help in figuring out how to decide. The therapist can probably offer some different frames or mental exercises that can help you look at things differently.

[livednlearned]

Have you thought about a therapeutic separation?

It seems like you want to know who you might be out there on your own, which cannot be known until you get there.

[ForeverDad]

A good reminder could be an allegory copied onto a post years ago on the Learning Center boards.  Have you read The Bridge?  Follow the link.  You can't save someone if the person doesn't want to be saved and puts you at risk of getting pulled down too.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Lnl - I've been sleeping separately in the basement for two and half years.  It was an amazing improvement.  I've varied my "separation" and it seems to be better for me.  It's maddening for my wife since I've been stuck on the fence for so long.  IT's probably not fair or loving to her either.  But, it's away from the chaos and not as drastic as a divorce. 

Fd - I love the parable of the bridge.  I was moved by it when I first read is on BPDcentral.  I still carry the visualization of the story in my mind. I repeat to myself that I can't save someone else, and I can't be dragged down just because they want to.  Easy to say, easy to remember, harder to apply.  Thank you for reminding me of the story.  I'll re-read it tonight.

[livednlearned]

Lnl - I've been sleeping separately in the basement for two and half years.  It was an amazing improvement.  I've varied my "separation" and it seems to be better for me.

My question is more along the lines of experiencing temporarily what it's like to live on your own, to see how that feels, to get a glimpse of how your wife will respond, how you will respond, how the kids will respond. To see what comes up, whether fears you may have are unfounded or not.

Living together, even separately, does not feel the same as living apart.

Therapeutic separation is structured, there is a therapist involved, and the intent is to return to the marriage, if I understand it correctly. Different than trial separation.