Wife Filing for Divorce

[DontUnderstand]

I was just told by my wife after a 2 1/2 month separation that she is letting go, and has contacted an attorney for a divorce.  Our separation has had its ups and downs... .downs mostly, but I at least held out hope that we could work things out.  My wife has never been diagnosed, but some of the things I've had to deal with make me wonder.  She has major issues with me looking at other women.  It's gotten to the point where when we were out in public, I never stared at anyone for fear of where that would lead.  Also, I we could never do anything together because there would always be an accusation about me looking or staring, and the day would be ruined.  This past summer, when we were on a vacation, she'd told me that she'd finally had enough when she was sure she caught me of looking at a girl by the pool.  I tried to assure her that I hadn't looked, but since she always believes I'm a liar, I couldn't convince her otherwise.  That vacation was the beginning of the end... .she moved out with the kids a few weeks later.

So, today, I get a text message telling me she was letting me go.  I asked her why, and she said it was because of a movie I rented that had a brief nude scene.  The scene was a for a second, but truthfully I don't know exactly how long, because even though I was alone when I watched it, I averted my eyes as soon as it came up, as a way of staying pure for her.  I've tried everything I know to do, in order to prove to her that I love her, and I am faithful, but I do slip up from time to time, but I get no grace.  99.9% is not good enough for her.  I guess I'm basically looking for answers... .but I'm not even sure what questions I have.  I don't want to play the victim card, but I'm reaching out to anyone who can help me make sense of all this.  I often feel like I'm the one with the problem, but I never got any help from her to fix anything.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[TurbanCowboy]

I can tell you I also dealt with this problem but yours seems far more extreme. She sounds like she is projecting on you in an incredibly weak way. Are you sure she isn’t having an affair? It seems like there has to be a back up plan in place for many of these women.

There has to be more to it than a brief scene of nudity.

[pearlsw]

Hi DontUnderstand,

I am sorry to hear about this - it sounds like a very difficult dynamic. May I ask what you mean by this statement: "I am faithful, but I do slip up from time to time, but I get no grace.  99.9% is not good enough for her."  Do you mean you have occasionally looked at other women or you have cheated in some way?

Do you think she will really go through with this or is she pushing to get a modification of your behavior? My partner has accused me at times of things I have not done. It is a horrible thing to deal with.

Have you met during the separation to talk things over at all or is she keeping at arm's length?

wishing you peace, pearlsw.

[Meili]

I would like to join the others in welcoming you to the family. I'm sorry that you are having to deal with your struggles, but I'm certain that you can find some help and support here. Reading the threads of others here, you'll quickly find out that you are not alone.



It's good that you've realized that you cannot convince her to change her mind or explain to her that something was not happening. It's a natural response for most people, but it does not work in situations like this.

There are some really great communication tools around here that may help your situation. Please keep posting and let us know how we can help.

[DontUnderstand]

I can tell you I also dealt with this problem but yours seems far more extreme. She sounds like she is projecting on you in an incredibly weak way. Are you sure she isn’t having an affair? It seems like there has to be a back up plan in place for many of these women.

There has to be more to it than a brief scene of nudity.

Thanks for responding.

I've been asked about her faithfulness by more than a couple of people whom I've talked to about our situation.  I honestly don't know if she's been true to me, but she's been a housewife for the past 6 years, and for most of that time, at least one of our kids has always been with.  If she was fooling around, I honestly don't know when it would have happened.  Of course it is always possible.

We've been together 9 years... .married 5 1/2.  Over those years her sensitivity to me looking at other women had begun to intensify to the point that I was accused about doing something inappropriate everyday from her.  Even seeing a females name on a receipt was enough to incite a barrage of questions.  So, I gave up going to the store on my own, I gave up watching TV (all we had on the television were kids shows.)  So, I kept busy with other activities around the house.  I say all that to let everyone better understand that this has been an ongoing issue.  The movie was just the final straw for her I suppose, or at least an excuse to finally move on.

I've read up on the hallmarks of BPD, and though she doesn't meet all the criteria, I just can't help but think there's something wrong. 

[DontUnderstand]

Hi DontUnderstand,

I am sorry to hear about this - it sounds like a very difficult dynamic. May I ask what you mean by this statement: "I am faithful, but I do slip up from time to time, but I get no grace.  99.9% is not good enough for her."  Do you mean you have occasionally looked at other women or you have cheated in some way?

Do you think she will really go through with this or is she pushing to get a modification of your behavior? My partner has accused me at times of things I have not done. It is a horrible thing to deal with.

Have you met during the separation to talk things over at all or is she keeping at arm's length?

wishing you peace, pearlsw.

Pearlsw,

Thanks for the reply.

I've never cheated (physical or emotional).  In fact I've gone so far as to minimize the contact I have with female coworkers just to make sure I have nothing to hide.  Brief conversations from time to time are about the extent of my interactions.  What I mean by 99.9% is this.  If I so much as turned my head in the direction of an attractive female... .intentionally or not, I would get some comment about me not being able to control myself.

We see each other frequently, as I get my kids quite often.  Not so long ago, it seemed as if the separation was just a way for us to work out our issues.  Lately, though things have grown cold.  Yes my suspicion is perhaps there's someone else in the picture.  (Wouldn't that be an ironic kick in the a$$?)

She denies it, but of course during a separation/divorce everyone has to mind their p's and q's.

As for her expectations of me modifying my behavior, I don't what more I could do for her.  I've already lost so much of myself as it is.  That .01% that's I may not be able to comply with could be something as benign as going to a sports bar with a friend.  No, I just think her decision to go see an attorney was based on a kneejerk reaction to something she has been very sensitive to for quite sometime.

BTW, she did cancel her appointment.  She called last night and asked me some questions about where I've been and what I've been doing, then went off on me, and asked me what she had to do to get me to file for the divorce.  Her exact quote: "... .tell you that I'm talking to another man?"

She never told me why she cancelled it whenever I asked her.

Then, this morning she text me telling me about all the virtues she wants in her husband.  As if I don't have any of the characteristics she values.

This whole relationship has ripped me to shreds emotionally, yet for some reason, I still hang on.

[Cold Fire]

Hello DontUnderstand, when I read your post I felt like I was reading about my own life. My wife was obsessed with what I looked at. Some were as extreme as if I were driving and looked in the rearview mirror, she'd get upset if the driver of the car behind us happened to be a woman. In addition to all the other instances you mentioned. I bent over backwards to make her feel more secure, casting my eyes down or away in public so she wouldn't think I was checking out women. I quite often was accused of it anyway; sometimes I was accused of looking at women I didn't even know were around. And yes, this did extend to the movies, too; I felt so bad whenever a woman came on the big screen, nude or not. I really started to feel like she was trying to make me live my life in shame. You sound a lot like me; you don't have healthy boundaries, either. The relationship you're in is not healthy for you at all.

Just to tell you how mine ended up, my wife had an affair last year. She was upset with me for accepting cookies from her friend's sixteen-year-old daughter. So it was a revenge affair, if you will, even though I was faithful to her.

Her affair came as a great shock to me, since she was the one who was always accusing me. My lawyer and therapist both told me that projection is very common. So, yes, that was a very ironic kick in the you-know-what; in fact, it was more like being squashed like a bug. I went into a depression for months. My marriage to my BPD wife and its subsequent destruction was hands-down the hardest thing I've ever been through in my 43 years. I hope this helps.

[DontUnderstand]

Hello DontUnderstand, when I read your post I felt like I was reading about my own life. My wife was obsessed with what I looked at. Some were as extreme as if I were driving and looked in the rearview mirror, she'd get upset if the driver of the car behind us happened to be a woman. In addition to all the other instances you mentioned. I bent over backwards to make her feel more secure, casting my eyes down or away in public so she wouldn't think I was checking out women. I quite often was accused of it anyway; sometimes I was accused of looking at women I didn't even know were around. And yes, this did extend to the movies, too; I felt so bad whenever a woman came on the big screen, nude or not. I really started to feel like she was trying to make me live my life in shame. You sound a lot like me; you don't have healthy boundaries, either. The relationship you're in is not healthy for you at all.

Just to tell you how mine ended up, my wife had an affair last year. She was upset with me for accepting cookies from her friend's sixteen-year-old daughter. So it was a revenge affair, if you will, even though I was faithful to her.

Her affair came as a great shock to me, since she was the one who was always accusing me. My lawyer and therapist both told me that projection is very common. So, yes, that was a very ironic kick in the you-know-what; in fact, it was more like being squashed like a bug. I went into a depression for months. My marriage to my BPD wife and its subsequent destruction was hands-down the hardest thing I've ever been through in my 43 years. I hope this helps.

Cold Fire,

Wow, so I'm not the only one who's gone/going through this.  Sorry to hear you had to deal with so much as well.  So, was your ex ever diagnosed with BPD?  As I've said in previous post, my wife has never been diagnosed, and when I made a suggestion to her several months back that she might look into it, you can imagine the backlash and ridicule I received.

The latest I had to deal with happened just last night.  I was at home, by myself, and had just sat down to eat a bowl of soup I had made for dinner.   She called, and told me that my youngest daughter was missing me, and wanted to know if she could stay with me for the night.  I said sure.  My wife and I talked for a few minutes more about various things... .nothing pertaining to our relationship though.  When I estimated our conversation was drawing to a close, I informed her that I had just sat down to eat, and when I finished, I'd come over and pick up my daughter (she only lives about 10 minutes away).  That led to an onslaught of accusations about me wanting to get off the phone so I could get back to watching the cheerleaders on TV, and some other goofy insinuations.  I told her that the game was on, but I hadn't been watching it, as I had been fixing dinner for myself, and I had just sat down.  It didn't matter... .she ended up hanging up on me shortly after she said some other cruel remarks.  When I showed up to pick up my daughter about 30 minutes later, she made a remark about the fact that I should have been there sooner, and as we were leaving, she told my daughter... ."you better get going, daddy has a game he needs to watch".

This is just a single example of the misery I've had to endure throughout the last several years.  There's no amount precautions I can take to make sure she won't triggered.  How in the heck was I supposed to know that me telling her I would pick up my kid after I finished eating would lead to her thinking the worst in me.  I don't see how there's anyway I could've anticipated that?  So, here I am, fighting to salvage my marriage, and to try to get her to see me as someone who's not a deviant pervert, (she's basically told me she wants a man who's pure in spirit and deed) and I have to walk a minefield like that?  How in the world can I win?  As of this writing... .I can see no way, and the hopelessness persists.

So, I'm starting to shift my mindset toward moving on.  But when I think of my kids, and what I wanted our life to be like... .it's so hard.

Also, I'm a man of faith, and I believe I should look to scripture for guidance, and up to this point, God hasn't provided me with a scriptural way out of this mess.  I'm certainly growing in patience and perseverance though, that's for sure.

Let me finish by saying that I appreciate you sharing your story with me.  I gotta say, hearing what your wife did to you sure stung me quite a bit... .as our stories are so close, and having to endure something like that is not something I'm prepared for. (You should have known not to accept those cookies... .right?) Just kidding.  That's unbelievable to me... .and it sounds like your wife was looking for any excuse to warrant her behavior, and that was good enough for her use so that she could in essence blame you.

I get a lot of the blame directed toward me too.  Right now, it's her spending money like a drunken sailor, and the threat that if I take her card away, she'll seek an attorney.  So, guess what's strongly on my mind to do right now.

So, how have you been holding up so far?  Is your divorce finalized?  If so, how long ago was it?  And how did it all turn out for you?

Thanks again, and I hope to hear back from you.

God bless!

DontUnderstand

[Meili]

Have you looked at what she is telling you from an empathetic standpoint? Is she letting you know that she's insecure and scared that you find other women more attractive than her?

There seems to be a lot of focus the words that she uses, but what about the meaning behind the words?

[Cold Fire]

Cold Fire,

Wow, so I'm not the only one who's gone/going through this.  Sorry to hear you had to deal with so much as well.  So, was your ex ever diagnosed with BPD?  As I've said in previous post, my wife has never been diagnosed, and when I made a suggestion to her several months back that she might look into it, you can imagine the backlash and ridicule I received.

The latest I had to deal with happened just last night.  I was at home, by myself, and had just sat down to eat a bowl of soup I had made for dinner.   She called, and told me that my youngest daughter was missing me, and wanted to know if she could stay with me for the night.  I said sure.  My wife and I talked for a few minutes more about various things... .nothing pertaining to our relationship though.  When I estimated our conversation was drawing to a close, I informed her that I had just sat down to eat, and when I finished, I'd come over and pick up my daughter (she only lives about 10 minutes away).  That led to an onslaught of accusations about me wanting to get off the phone so I could get back to watching the cheerleaders on TV, and some other goofy insinuations.  I told her that the game was on, but I hadn't been watching it, as I had been fixing dinner for myself, and I had just sat down.  It didn't matter... .she ended up hanging up on me shortly after she said some other cruel remarks.  When I showed up to pick up my daughter about 30 minutes later, she made a remark about the fact that I should have been there sooner, and as we were leaving, she told my daughter... ."you better get going, daddy has a game he needs to watch".

This is just a single example of the misery I've had to endure throughout the last several years.  There's no amount precautions I can take to make sure she won't triggered.  How in the heck was I supposed to know that me telling her I would pick up my kid after I finished eating would lead to her thinking the worst in me.  I don't see how there's anyway I could've anticipated that?  So, here I am, fighting to salvage my marriage, and to try to get her to see me as someone who's not a deviant pervert, (she's basically told me she wants a man who's pure in spirit and deed) and I have to walk a minefield like that?  How in the world can I win?  As of this writing... .I can see no way, and the hopelessness persists.

So, I'm starting to shift my mindset toward moving on.  But when I think of my kids, and what I wanted our life to be like... .it's so hard.

Also, I'm a man of faith, and I believe I should look to scripture for guidance, and up to this point, God hasn't provided me with a scriptural way out of this mess.  I'm certainly growing in patience and perseverance though, that's for sure.

Let me finish by saying that I appreciate you sharing your story with me.  I gotta say, hearing what your wife did to you sure stung me quite a bit... .as our stories are so close, and having to endure something like that is not something I'm prepared for. (You should have known not to accept those cookies... .right?) Just kidding.  That's unbelievable to me... .and it sounds like your wife was looking for any excuse to warrant her behavior, and that was good enough for her use so that she could in essence blame you.

I get a lot of the blame directed toward me too.  Right now, it's her spending money like a drunken sailor, and the threat that if I take her card away, she'll seek an attorney.  So, guess what's strongly on my mind to do right now.

So, how have you been holding up so far?  Is your divorce finalized?  If so, how long ago was it?  And how did it all turn out for you?

Thanks again, and I hope to hear back from you.

God bless!

DontUnderstand

You are definitely not the only one. Even though I don't post here a heck of a lot, I was so happy to find this forum and read other people's stories. Before that, I felt like I was the only loser in the world who had to deal with this soul-crushing nonsense. It was so frustrating and depressing. For many years, I didn't even know what the problem was. I did allow her to make me feel like it was my fault. Only after her affair did I read and learn more about this incredibly difficult personality disorder.

My wife has never been diagnosed or sought therapy of any kind. She's a dead ringer for BPD with all the symptoms, though. I have followed the advice I've seen in various places not to tell her that I think she has it. After her affair I was going to tell her as a condition of reconciliation that she had to go to therapy but I've decided I'm not really interested in reconciling, so I haven't pushed the issue. I've just been through too much. I would still like her to go for her own good. I've been going for the past 10 months and I would encourage you to do the same. It may help to clear things up for you, such as what you want to do in the future and why you get into a relationship like that to begin with.

I've been through many incidents like the one you describe - I could write a book with all the stories - and honestly, that's one huge reason why I'm not interested in reconciling. I do not want to re-enter into a monogamous relationship with her only so her sense of jealousy and possessiveness will come back like it did before and I would have to be put up with all that nonsense again. I was more than tired of having the most innocuous and trivial things I said and did blown up into massive accusations of infidelity and perversion. I'm certainly not dealing with that anymore after finding out that she is in fact the cheater. I'm just done. I'm more than content to let it be her other guy's problem now. She gets jealous with him sometimes and he has to deal with it. I just kind of laugh about it to myself whenever that happens. He wanted her and he got her, so he can deal with her BPD, too. In fact, he's totally the player type, so it's a perfect combination. LOL. They deserve each other.

So while her affair caused me to go into shock and grief and depression for months (my doctor actually had to put me on anti-depressants, which have helped a lot, even though I haven't totally given up drinking), it also turned out to be tremendously liberating. I can't go back to where I was before. Spiritually and emotionally, I'm checked out already. We just live like roommates now, until we can find a way out in the long term.

It's been nearly a year since I found out (last December 22nd).

I can't say I blame you for your shift in mindset. I would be and have been doing the same. I think it's great that you are a man of faith and are looking for a scriptural way to handle this. Unfortunately, I don't have an easy answer for you in that regard. I am giving a sermon as the guest minister in my church in a few weeks and I will preach on forgiveness. And while forgiveness of others and ourselves is great, it's not the complete answer for you.

It's not really something you can ever emotionally prepare yourself for. But maybe you can see it coming. Are these double standards that you're dealing with? Does your wife obsess over certain guys? Does she feel free to like them and look at them and flirt with them, or accept their flirtation? Does she feel free to have male friends, in real life and/or social media? Does she do things that you know for a fact she would ream you for doing? If so, then you're most likely dealing with projection. As an example, maybe she screams at you about watching cheerleaders on TV because she likes to watch hot guys on TV. Maybe she likes the football players. Maybe that's what she would have been doing if she were in your shoes. And the sense of shame and guilt is too much for her to deal with, so she tries to turn it on you. If this is the case, then she may be vulnerable to infidelity at some point. And she may pick on some small thing you say or do to tell you that's why she cheated on you. Yes, that is what happened to me.

I hope I've been helpful to you. Likewise, you and everyone here are helpful to me as well. God bless you, too.

[Cold Fire]

Even seeing a females name on a receipt was enough to incite a barrage of questions.  

Since you mention this, one of my "favorite" stories to tell: When we had been married a little over a year, for her birthday in 2003, I went to the store to get a birthday cake for her. I came home with it and I was in the mood to celebrate and give her a lot of love, etc., etc. I didn't even think twice about whose checkout lane I went through. I was just buying the stupid cake. When she saw the name "Ashley" on the receipt, she went absolutely ballistic. She literally punched me in the face for that, in addition to the screaming and accusations. Instead of leaving her, which is what someone with healthy boundaries would have done, I tried to "learn" from it by going through the checkout lanes of male cashiers or throwing receipts away if I didn't have that choice. And later on, self-checkout lanes, when they became more popular. But she always found other things to ream me for, anyway.

Around that same time frame, in the early years of our marriage, we were broke and only had one car and had to stop for gas one morning while she was taking me to work. My bank card didn't work at the pump; it told me to go inside and see that cashier. So I did. She hit me for that, too - while she was driving, like Chris Brown! - because she thought I went inside to flirt with the cashier.

I thought about these things in a whole new light after finding out about her affair. to say the least.

[Enabler]

Hello everyone, small time out I think here and let's get back to it. I have had issues with this as well and it's frankly crazy making. So, I suggest we look at this rationally and then look at it through BPD eyes making the assumption that she has BPD traits at the very least.

Rational -
You are a man, men have a natural uncontrollable urge to be attracted to women, this is how you were attracted to her in the first place. To my knowledge there is nothing about a marriage service OR intimate bonding between one man and one woman that chemically ceases mans attraction to women. A partnership always has RISK that one of the individuals will act upon this attraction to someone else and then have an affair, however that is where trust comes in. You cannot make someone trust you, trust is nurtured and built based on evidence that one is trustworthy. In marriage vows we promise to FORSAKE all others, we did not promise to never find anyone else attractive, we promised to forgo the opportunity and avoid the temptation. Attraction is sub conscious to a certain extent and therefore not something one can manage. Implying that being attracted to the opposite sex is an indication of your values is 200% FOG and twisted thinking. What is an indication of your values is if you act upon that attraction. There is a fine line between a pretty lady catching your attention and having abbot of a look, and doing that with your hand down your trousers. (Excuse my crass analogy). What you are trying to do is suppress a subconscious natural reaction to prevent negative outcomes, negative outcomes which your wife should own as they are irrational thoughts, expectations and you have EVIDENCED trustworthy behaviour.

BPD mindset

There are multiple different reasons she could be behaving this way and since I'm not her I can only guess:

Trauma reenactment and fear of abandonment - does she have any family history of abuse or maybe a father than ran off and had an affair? She is clearly hypervigilent for any sign of physical or emotional abandonment. She believes, in fact she is certain you are going to leave her so she is petrified of any sign that you are attracted even in the slightest to another female. This cannot be tolerated so she will crush it with her might as soon as she sees even a green shoot of potential. Remember time has no meaning for emotional memory, what she may have felt when her father ran off will be felt every time she gets a sense you are going to do the same. Clearly there's some assumptions here and it may just be the fear of abandonment with no history of parental abandonment.

Self loathing - she hates herself and feels that she is unattractive. If she believes this about herself she will definitely think it's impossible for you to find her attractive, in fact she will likely think you find her revolting and will want to leave her for another better model. She is hypervigilant for signs that you are going to run off with another and defends that threat aggressively.

Projection - the least likely of all of them I think as she has shown consistency over the years and unless she has a parallel relationship which I somewhat doubt it's unlikely those feelings of "I'm having an affair therefore you must be" would oscillate as to when she is playing away. But that's the crux of that one

Twisted view on what constitutes commitment - many women believe that if you love someone there is an automatic switch that prevents you from being attracted to other people. My wife for example believes that she cannot love me as she periodically finds other people attractive. This is warped thinking and denies animal instincts. It's part of black and white thinking to an extent and the inability to comprehend the grey... ." she's smoking hot but you're my wife and there's no way I'd risk what we have by trying it on with her", that is grey thinking. She cannot perceive how you can love her yet partly love (by being attracted) another, especially as she values love in the form of attraction rather than a multifaceted bond comprising of many different traits where attraction is just a part... .trust, loyalty, economic success, strength, security etc etc


By changing your behaviour you are perpetuating her fairytale version of reality. What you can do about this is for the smart petiole to help you with! 

[DontUnderstand]

Have you looked at what she is telling you from an empathetic standpoint? Is she letting you know that she's insecure and scared that you find other women more attractive than her?

There seems to be a lot of focus the words that she uses, but what about the meaning behind the words?

We've had the conversation many times.  From what I can gather, it's more about my attention being on someone else, and her idea about what's going on in my mind.  Simply stated, she doesn't like me looking because of what she assumes I'm thinking when I look.  The truth of the matter is, unfortunately I am a visual person.  I've always looked at people.  They interest me.  Within that, I am drawn to the beauty of an attractive person... .not in a lustful way; however, there is a certain sexual context to it.

All that being said, I have never been able to convey to her just how beautiful she is to me.  My attraction for my wife is on a completely different level, and I am drawn to her in a way that I don't think she'll ever know, or believe.  It wasn't always that way, but as the years have gone by, my love for her has grown deeper and my passion for her has grown as well.  I really wish she knew and believed that.   But the fighting and distance always clouded things.

From the beginning, she put up a wall between us, and never seemed to feel comfortable with me.  There was always a barrier whenever it came to intimacy, and I could never seem to break through it.  I always felt it was a way for her to protect herself, and keep herself from ever being vulnerable.  My guess is it stemmed from her past relationships where she was indeed hurt.

So, frustration set in for me.  I wasn't given the freedom to look at her, and enjoy what I had.  (I use the analogy of having an exotic sports car sitting in my garage, but not being able to drive it.) Yet, I wasn't allowed to look elsewhere either, of course for good reason... .and I get that.

In the end, I suppose my inability to empathize with her feelings, or hearing how hurt she was by my actions drove her to the point of getting out.  Instead of being able to listen and truly hear what she was saying, I became defensive, and invalidating.  My way of handling her accusations initially was to minimize what I was doing.  Then, after I tried my best to correct my behavior, and after several times of being accused of things I wasn't doing, my action was to try and correct her assumptions.  I didn't know any better, and still don't know what to do.

To this day, she says I'm no different, I haven't changed, and I keep doing things my own way.  In her mind, me watching a football game is proof that I'm still the same as ever.  She also thinks I believe she's the only one that needs to change.  I'm at a loss.

 

[Meili]

For what it's worth, all of those things are very common around here. If you read the stories of others, you'll see so many parallels. None of us knew what to do, what we were doing wrong, or how to make any of it better. If we had, we'd have done it already. The good news is that none of us are dead yet which means that we can still learn and grow.

pwBPD have very intense emotions. Insecurity is nothing more than fear, which is, of course, an emotion. So, pwBPD have intense fears. Your inability to convey to her how beautiful you think she is probably isn't your inability at all, it's her inability to believe it. Her insecurities are probably so intense that it causes her to doubt you. This can also be seen in what you wrote about the conversation that you've had many times.

Is it possible that what is actually going on is that she's afraid that your paying attention to someone else or what you might be thinking, even if just for a split second, is because of her fear that she is not good enough for you or something along those lines and that you will eventually abandon her?

[DontUnderstand]

I tried to "learn" from it by going through the checkout lanes of male cashiers or throwing receipts away if I didn't have that choice. And later on, self-checkout lanes, when they became more popular.

Sorry man, I laughed out loud when I read that.  I feel ya, and know exactly what you're saying.

[DontUnderstand]

For what it's worth, all of those things are very common around here. If you read the stories of others, you'll see so many parallels. None of us knew what to do, what we were doing wrong, or how to make any of it better. If we had, we'd have done it already. The good news is that none of us are dead yet which means that we can still learn and grow.

pwBPD have very intense emotions. Insecurity is nothing more than fear, which is, of course, an emotion. So, pwBPD have intense fears. Your inability to convey to her how beautiful you think she is probably isn't your inability at all, it's her inability to believe it. Her insecurities are probably so intense that it causes her to doubt you. This can also be seen in what you wrote about the conversation that you've had many times.

Is it possible that what is actually going on is that she's afraid that your paying attention to someone else or what you might be thinking, even if just for a split second, is because of her fear that she is not good enough for you or something along those lines and that you will eventually abandon her?

All that is what makes it so frustrating.  To be abandoned because of something I've done or am doing would be reasonable.  It would then be my choice to make the decision to change for the sake of my marriage.  Those changes could then be seen, and realized.  Or if she said she was done, didn't love me, and wanted to move on with her life... .it would hurt, but at least it would be a reasonable thing to wrap my head around.  But what I'm dealing with is in the realm of Bizzaro Land.  Where up is down, and black is white.  To be pinned in to such an extent to where nothing short of perfection is deemed acceptable... .and then told I know what would put her mind at ease yet I choose to do otherwise.  To be told her anger has not diminished and is in fact increasing... .  and all the while believing divorce is the only solution.

It's painful, and the feeling of hopelessness, and helplessness is taking a toll.

[Cold Fire]

Sorry man, I laughed out loud when I read that.  I feel ya, and know exactly what you're saying.

Thanks and no problem . By the way, I wrote a reply to your previous reply, at the bottom of the first page. I didn't know if you saw it because when I replied to your grocery store receipt thing the forum went to the second page. So that response is at the bottom of the first page. I didn't want you think I ignored your questions.

[DontUnderstand]

Hello everyone, small time out I think here and let's get back to it. I have had issues with this as well and it's frankly crazy making. So, I suggest we look at this rationally and then look at it through BPD eyes making the assumption that she has BPD traits at the very least.

Rational -
You are a man, men have a natural uncontrollable urge to be attracted to women, this is how you were attracted to her in the first place. To my knowledge there is nothing about a marriage service OR intimate bonding between one man and one woman that chemically ceases mans attraction to women. A partnership always has RISK that one of the individuals will act upon this attraction to someone else and then have an affair, however that is where trust comes in. You cannot make someone trust you, trust is nurtured and built based on evidence that one is trustworthy. In marriage vows we promise to FORSAKE all others, we did not promise to never find anyone else attractive, we promised to forgo the opportunity and avoid the temptation. Attraction is sub conscious to a certain extent and therefore not something one can manage. Implying that being attracted to the opposite sex is an indication of your values is 200% FOG and twisted thinking. What is an indication of your values is if you act upon that attraction. There is a fine line between a pretty lady catching your attention and having abbot of a look, and doing that with your hand down your trousers. (Excuse my crass analogy). What you are trying to do is suppress a subconscious natural reaction to prevent negative outcomes, negative outcomes which your wife should own as they are irrational thoughts, expectations and you have EVIDENCED trustworthy behaviour.

BPD mindset

There are multiple different reasons she could be behaving this way and since I'm not her I can only guess:

Trauma reenactment and fear of abandonment - does she have any family history of abuse or maybe a father than ran off and had an affair? She is clearly hypervigilent for any sign of physical or emotional abandonment. She believes, in fact she is certain you are going to leave her so she is petrified of any sign that you are attracted even in the slightest to another female. This cannot be tolerated so she will crush it with her might as soon as she sees even a green shoot of potential. Remember time has no meaning for emotional memory, what she may have felt when her father ran off will be felt every time she gets a sense you are going to do the same. Clearly there's some assumptions here and it may just be the fear of abandonment with no history of parental abandonment.

Self loathing - she hates herself and feels that she is unattractive. If she believes this about herself she will definitely think it's impossible for you to find her attractive, in fact she will likely think you find her revolting and will want to leave her for another better model. She is hypervigilant for signs that you are going to run off with another and defends that threat aggressively.

Projection - the least likely of all of them I think as she has shown consistency over the years and unless she has a parallel relationship which I somewhat doubt it's unlikely those feelings of "I'm having an affair therefore you must be" would oscillate as to when she is playing away. But that's the crux of that one

Twisted view on what constitutes commitment - many women believe that if you love someone there is an automatic switch that prevents you from being attracted to other people. My wife for example believes that she cannot love me as she periodically finds other people attractive. This is warped thinking and denies animal instincts. It's part of black and white thinking to an extent and the inability to comprehend the grey... ." she's smoking hot but you're my wife and there's no way I'd risk what we have by trying it on with her", that is grey thinking. She cannot perceive how you can love her yet partly love (by being attracted) another, especially as she values love in the form of attraction rather than a multifaceted bond comprising of many different traits where attraction is just a part... .trust, loyalty, economic success, strength, security etc etc


By changing your behaviour you are perpetuating her fairytale version of reality. What you can do about this is for the smart petiole to help you with! 

Enabler,

Thanks for the input, and I can see you have a bit of insight into all this.  I know she's very self conscious about herself, but if you asked her, I'm sure she'd say the thinks of herself as attractive.  So, the idea of self loathing doesn't fit in my opinion.

I recently learned from her oldest daughter (my step-daughter), that when she was her dad, she was hypersensitive about him staring... .to the point he couldn't look at the magazines in a checkout line.  That relationship ended over 15 years ago, so I realized that it wasn't just me.  Also, my wife has told me that I am  just the same as that man.  :)id he cheat on her... .I believe so, and she on him as well.  My wife has also told me that both her parents cheated on each other.  She also told me that she's cheated on every boyfriend she ever had, with the exception of her previous husband and me.  She says marriage is a different matter, and stepping out is not acceptable.

Do I believe her... .yes.

In the end, the reasons for her jealousy don't diminish the fact that she is using that, as well as her issues with my family ( a whole other story) as means to propel herself out of a marriage/relationship that has been tumultuous for the bulk of it.

[DontUnderstand]

Are these double standards that you're dealing with? Does your wife obsess over certain guys? Does she feel free to like them and look at them and flirt with them, or accept their flirtation? Does she feel free to have male friends, in real life and/or social media? Does she do things that you know for a fact she would ream you for doing?

I hope I've been helpful to you. Likewise, you and everyone here are helpful to me as well. God bless you, too.

Definitely double standards in play.  I remember earlier this year, she spoke to me about hearing a preacher who said that a married man and another woman should never be alone together for any reason.  No matter their relationship. She made sure I knew that, and I told her that I agreed wholeheartedly.  Fast toward to now.  Well, she's been on several shopping trips with a guy friend, who was the husband of our couple-friend.  They also happen to be swingers by the way.   Now, this guy isn't someone I see my wife as fooling around with, he's way overweight and just now her type, so I truly don't believe anything is going on.  I did ask her why she was exempt from that expectation of a married person not hanging out alone with the opposite sex.  Her answer:  "he's just a friend."  That was never loophole when she first told me about what the preacher said.  She also talks to single guys on FB.  Same answer... ."I don't like him... .there's nothing going on."

Ridiculous!

[Meili]

DontUnderstand, I realize that all of this goes against any sort of rational thoughts that you have and is all so very confusing. But, what a pwBPD thinks is very rational to them. It will serve you greatly to learn all that you can about the disorder. When you start to understand it, things begin to make a lot more sense.

Take, for example, your comments to Enabler:

I know she's very self conscious about herself, but if you asked her, I'm sure she'd say the thinks of herself as attractive.  So, the idea of self loathing doesn't fit in my opinion.

You are basing your opinion on her words rather than her actions. You can see and know that she's very self conscious about herself, yet you would allow the words to counter that.

Also, you've told us that she's told you that she's very insecure and that's why she worries about what you are thinking.

When you have a greater understanding about how a BPD mind works and the way that the fears distort their reality into something that we cannot recognize (notice that I didn't say that their realities are wrong, they aren't... .they are just as real for them as yours are for you), a lot of this becomes far easier.

[Cold Fire]

Definitely double standards in play.  I remember earlier this year, she spoke to me about hearing a preacher who said that a married man and another woman should never be alone together for any reason.  No matter their relationship. She made sure I knew that, and I told her that I agreed wholeheartedly.  Fast toward to now.  Well, she's been on several shopping trips with a guy friend, who was the husband of our couple-friend.  They also happen to be swingers by the way.   Now, this guy isn't someone I see my wife as fooling around with, he's way overweight and just now her type, so I truly don't believe anything is going on.  I did ask her why she was exempt from that expectation of a married person not hanging out alone with the opposite sex.  Her answer:  "he's just a friend."  That was never loophole when she first told me about what the preacher said.  She also talks to single guys on FB.  Same answer... ."I don't like him... .there's nothing going on."

Ridiculous!

Absolutely it's ridiculous. Like she's as clean and pure as the wind-driven snow, and you're somehow not to be trusted. It's total BS. It's dehumanizing and demoralizing. It drove me crazy. I hate the hypocrisy and selfishness so much. And my wife herself is the most selfish and hypocritical person I've ever known in my 43 years.

Either something is right or it's wrong. None of this one rule for me and another for you BS.

Just keep your eyes open and don't be naive, and don't assume that she won't do anything or that a guy isn't her type. Watch her phone and her social media and her behavior; look for the signs.

[DontUnderstand]

DontUnderstand, I realize that all of this goes against any sort of rational thoughts that you have and is all so very confusing. But, what a pwBPD thinks is very rational to them. It will serve you greatly to learn all that you can about the disorder. When you start to understand it, things begin to make a lot more sense.

Take, for example, your comments to Enabler:

You are basing your opinion on her words rather than her actions. You can see and know that she's very self conscious about herself, yet you would allow the words to counter that.

Also, you've told us that she's told you that she's very insecure and that's why she worries about what you are thinking.

When you have a greater understanding about how a BPD mind works and the way that the fears distort their reality into something that we cannot recognize (notice that I didn't say that their realities are wrong, they aren't... .they are just as real for them as yours are for you), a lot of this becomes far easier.

I've learned a little about this disorder.  Keep in mind, she's never been diagnosed, but she has some behaviors that are very close.  ie the extreme jealousy and paranoia, trying to separate me from friends and family.  However, other symptoms of BPD don't fit at all.  She never self harmed, and told me she's never contemplated suicide.

Nevertheless, given that her feelings are real... .I get that, but how to I handle it appropriately?  Especially when she's expressed her strong desire for divorce.  She knows I don't want it, but believes I think she's the only one that needs to change, and will hold on until she does.  That's half true, because I do believe she needs to change... .otherwise no amount of change in my part will do any good.  I'm at least smart enough to know that.

I know in much of what I've said, I may come across as condemning her, and that's not my intention.  Something I've recently come to understand is that my railing against her reality has only increased her ideal that I think she's crazy, wrong, invalidated etc.  That's never been my intention.  I've stepped on her heart, and hardened it to a point that appears to be beyond return. Yet I never did it willingly, and in fact tried to do the exact opposite.  So, I struggle with how I'm supposed to make any of it better.  As far as I can tell, our marriage is beyond salvageable... .and she's running 100 miles an hour toward divorce, and everything I'm doing has done nothing but prompt her to step on the accelerator. 

I'm positive she is waiting for our tax return money to come in, so she can finally secure an attorney.

[DontUnderstand]

Absolutely it's ridiculous. Like she's as clean and pure as the wind-driven snow, and you're somehow not to be trusted. It's total BS. It's dehumanizing and demoralizing. It drove me crazy. I hate the hypocrisy and selfishness so much. And my wife herself is the most selfish and hypocritical person I've ever known in my 43 years.

Either something is right or it's wrong. None of this one rule for me and another for you BS.

Just keep your eyes open and don't be naive, and don't assume that she won't do anything or that a guy isn't her type. Watch her phone and her social media and her behavior; look for the signs.

Got my head in the sand there.  I don't like thinking about it, and just don't want to know.

On another note: You said your giving a sermon on forgiveness, so I can assume you believe in God as well.  One of the things I felt I could at least count on throughout all this, is her strong desire to follow God's ways.  I felt that her belief would drive actions, and if she kept her eye on God, she'd look to Him for answers.

The scariest thing I heard to date, was a text she sent me yesterday, in which she said her anger is driving her to run from church and God.  No matter what happens between her and I, to hear that was heartbreaking to me.

[Enabler]

DontUnderstand,
You are basing your opinion on her words rather than her actions. You can see and know that she's very self conscious about herself, yet you would allow the words to counter that

Ike for example how often does she walk around the bedroom stark naked in front of you, how comfortable is she really with her body? When you used to have sex, was it with the lights on or the lights off, covers over or all to see? I don't expect you to answer all these questions but think about them. How comfortable is she really with her beauty?

[Meili]

Everything that you expressing is very natural and many of us have been through it all before. The good news is that you can learn from our mistakes and what has worked for us.

If you read the other stories around here, you are not coming anywhere close to condemning her as some of our other members have. That's a good sign. That means that you aren't that emotional and in a better position to start thinking with a Wisemind.

The dynamics of your relationship have not been working, so change that. It only takes one of the two people involved to do something different and the dynamics are then changed.

I'm certain that you're right and at this moment in time, she sees you as the problem and isn't looking at herself to make any changes. That's fine. You know that, so you can work with that rather than fight against it. Lead by example. As I said, it only takes one of you to change the dynamics of everything.

If she's running toward divorce, stop chasing. As you've noted, the more that you chase, the faster that she runs. Don't drive her toward that finish line.

You've noted some key things that all revolve around her emotions. You also said that her heart has hardened, maybe you can soften it. There are powerful feelings at play, pay attention to that. Talk to her about her feelings without telling her that they are wrong. A person's feelings are never wrong. Also, don't tell her what she feels. That's a big problem started. Listen, empathetically and actively listen to what she is telling you. Ask probing, problem-solving questions.

A possible example from your own story could be the one about her being so angry that she's running from church and God.

Did you tell her that you understand that she's angry and how anyone with as much going on as she has would be angry? Not in those exact words, but you validate the emotion and her reality. It softens things and opens her up to talk more about what is actually going on for her. Create the situation where she can feel safe to express her emotions.

At first, there will be a lot of venom. It really helps to understand that while the words may be directed at you, they are not really about you. Just let them go without justifying, arguing, defending, or explaining. The idea is not to convince her that her feelings are wrong; but, rather, to encourage her to talk about them.