So is this normal, withholding intimacy?

[lonely38]

My BPD h and I have had zero sex since April? Trying to figure out what is going on with him? He keeps saying it will happen.  In the meantime, I feel like I am his helpmeet trying to support him, encourage him, be there for him, etc., but really nothing back from him.  Is this normal because he is struggling with with his own stuff? His just figuring out he has a mental illness?  We are not young but we are certainly not old yet.  This has left me feeling lonely and certainly unwanted.  I am just not sure what to think here... .

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[pearlsw]

Hi lonely in co,

Thanks for posting this question! I hope other members will join us here and share their collective insights on this topic as I am sure this must vary!

Over the course of my relationship with my SO I would say I had the, um, opposite issue. My SO tends towards being a bit hyper sexual. At times I felt I was being used as a form of stress relief and not really "allowed" to turn down intimacy with him as he was so demanding around it. He had no sense of a give and take, and it felt like my emotions were a distant last place. I suppose there have been sexual issues the entire time, but they have changed a lot over that time as well. Some improvement was possible.

In your case, do you have any idea at all why the sex stopped? Did he say anything at all? What was your sex life like before it stopped? Is he depressed? Does he have any other health issues aside from BPD/BPD traits? I don't want to speculate too much more beyond this, but what is your best notion of what is going on and why? Or it is a complete mystery?

wishing you peace, pearl.

[Sadrose]

Hi Lonely in co,

With my now ex lover who has BPD, I have experienced the same problem. In the beginning he told me he was a bit repressed and I didn't really understand what he was talking about. First the sexual intimacy between us was nice and relatively frequent for a new relationship as it is usually the case. Soon after, as I was initiating and getting close to him, I saw him uneasy and as overwhelmed... .This was puzzling and upsetting to me, I felt as if I was assaulting him with my embrace... very disturbing feeling! He managed to explain that it had been a problem with all his ex partners and that he had to work on this area, that after being "pushed" for sex, he would generally enjoy it. You can imagine how that would surprise me and made me feel, how my self esteem as a woman would take a blow.
Not every people have the same needs for sexual intimacy, and some women can be more interested in sex than some men, but as it was the beginning of our relationship, this was very unusual to me, and maybe the first sign I saw that he struggled with intimacy.
We even had an argument when one time, he was obviously "aroused" physically but still declined my initiation for sex... .Then the next day he would make an effort (I realize how crazy that sounds now) and we were intimate many times, as if he understood that he was pushing me away by withdrawing and had to be sexual. Was he forcing himself? I don't know.
But the thing is, as you suggest, he was overwhelmed by the closeness, what the intimacy triggers : attachment and hence the fear of abandonment and engulfment.
Withdrawing sex also stands for a exerting control over the partner, it also is an expression of the ambivalence (their anger towards us acted out). I have experienced it as a passive aggressive behavior personally. Also as a way to protect himself, by his avoidance, he controlled the pace of us getting close or not. However he would be very affectionate in public, with constant public displays of affection. But in hindsight, I see it more as signs of a merging feeling than an "adult desire/longing" for another person.
I suggest you try some foreplay, massages but no sexual penetration, in order to reconnect to one another on a sensual level, without "overwhelming" him emotionally. This worked well for us.
In the end, the sex was less problematic and getting better and better, but the reason for that was it was more about having sex than making love. This way he could handle it. I guess when it was not too loaded with feelings, tenderness, love etc. I noticed he struggled with having eye contact during those moments, and certain positions would make it easier for him.

So to answer your question, not all people with BPD are over sexual as it is usually said, some withhold intimacy as a way to protect themselves and to exert control/punish etc. It is common for people with that pathology, but it doesn't mean it is normal for you and you have to put up with it. You were right to express your needs.
As my lover has now broke up with me, your question makes me realize that also was a big issue to me, the lack of sensuality, of emotional connection, his control over me (even passively it's still the same... ). And yet I would take him back, but I realize how this emotional disconnect made me feel unwanted, alone, shameful also (because not wanted and your needs are denied)... .

Hope this has helped you,

Sadrose

[isilme]

Sex is very intimate and tied to emotions.  BPD is an emotional disorder that is strongest with those of us closest to the pwBPD.  So yes, it's "normal."

H with-holds affection, sex or otherwise, when he is depressed, in a poor mood, etc.  (So, right now, essentially).  He shifts from hyper sexual to nothing.  And now, with his health issues, things are difficult in new ways, so that embarrasses him and makes him feel "sordid".  He has a lot of shame tied up in sex, even though he denies it all the time.

1) feels bad about himself and so can't believe I'd want to be close to him or care about him.  My own feelings invalidate his and he can't handle that.

2) see above, but he now feels unattractive on top of it all.

3) He is actively angry at me, and knows that refusing to hug me or hold hands hurts me.  He is mad, and wants to hurt me so I can feel just as mad, to validate his anger in the first place.

4) He is embarrassed about something, feels like his performance is not up to par, needs to believe I don't enjoy it (which I fear means he's projecting that HE does not enjoy it).

5) He is in a mood, "testing" me to see if I am actually attracted to him and seeing if I will initiate - he holds back and waits, giving mixed signals the whole time.  50/50 he will refuse me, so I often don't bother.  I don't see how he can go from complaining about how much his body hurts to expecting me to feel he wants sex (complaining is a turn off for me - he does not listen).  He will actively complain as I TRY to initiate, telling me he doesn't need pity sex, etc.  When MY body is tired or hurts, I don't care what you do to me, I often had little to no sensory input.  It shuts off, and wants sleep more than anything in the world.  He can't understand this, either, and chooses to interpret it as a rejection.

What else is going on for you two?  Is he affectionate in other ways?  Has he felt ill?  Worried?  Stressed?  What of "his own stuff" could be making him emotionally unable to be there for you physically?  What do you do?  Do you try to get things started?  Does he go along, or push you away?

[lonely38]

So, our sex life has been off and on for pretty much our entire marriage.  He has always blamed it on me and said that I was not interested.  I know I was interested just not as 'often' as he was.  He has been unfaithful for most of our marriage, so much that he went through sex addiction counseling.  That was about 7 years ago.  He pretty much confessed all of his pass immorality then.  We tried to rebuild our marriage at the time and it was way better for several years.
But the same pattern of a lack of intimacy (more than just sex) has come back into play.  It was a few months ago as I was witnessing his behavior that I began to think he had mental illness (BPD).  I shared my concerns with him at the time.  He has agreed with me and is beginning therapy.
He has been pretty much a mess the last few months.  Everything from incredibly anxious, depressed, removed from me, then wanting to be close (although definitely not sex).  Honestly, he is almost impossible to be with as I never know what to expect from him. 
My personality is that I get hopeful when he is nice and enjoy the closeness.  Thankfully I am also recognizing that will only last for so long.  The best feeling I can describe in this whole thing is my name above which is LONELY.
I have begun to have thoughts about just giving up but I am nearly 60 at this point.  I do not want our family torn apart, including our children and grandchildren. I realize this is what has kept me going this long, not our marriage.
 
It helps me to put my thoughts on this site, even the very intimate ones about sex as it gives me some thoughts or ideas on what may be going on.
I emailed my husband last night and said I would like to talk about sex.  His reply was very typical, defensive and pointing the finger that we have not done well for a long time and therefore, we are not having sex. 
While he has done this to me for pretty much our entire marriage, what I am starting to realize is that while this may be true for him, it is not for me.  He sees things in a different light than I do. 
Also, he has been successful in making me out to to be the 'bad' one for so long that it has worn me down.  My therapist is having me read a book called 'gaslighting'.  I am hoping I can better at not reacting (even deep inside with my emotions) to all the crazy stuff he throws at me, both verbally and emotionally.  I feel he has been verbally abusive and emotionally manipulative to me.  I realize I have allowed that and I am working to get healthy around that.

[Woodchuck]

I would say from my experience that it is somewhat normal.  Our sex life is quite complicated I guess.  I will be pushed away by my uBPDw with the reason that she does not feel close to me and does not want to feel like a prostitute or something along those lines.  The strange thing is that at times, after I walk away or turn over to go to sleep, she will then try to initiate intimacy.  This just leaves me completely confused.  To further complicate things, there is no positive communication during intimacy, making it less than pleasurable when it does happen.  She will ask me what I am thinking or what I want and when I answer, the response is almost always, not tonight.  When I ask in return what she wants, she just shakes her head and won't tell me anything.  That is followed by her pushing me away when I don't do whatever she doesn't want, which I have no idea what that might be on any given day and refuses to tell or show me what she does want.  That ends up making me feel rejected.  She will tell me that she wants me to make it about me but then is not interested in anything that I would like.  Over the past several months she has just pushed me away and told me she doesn't want me to touch her.  We have been sleeping in separate rooms for several weeks now and I have just kept my distance for the most part as she will usually push me away.  This has resulted in her waking me up in the middle of the night for sex.  When I ask her why, she says she is trying to meet my needs.  I am beyond confused.  I do understand that there needs to be emotional intimacy and trust etc in order for the physical part of a relationship to be great and that has not been there for many years.

[isilme]

I will be pushed away by my uBPDw with the reason that she does not feel close to me and does not want to feel like a prostitute or something along those lines.  The strange thing is that at times, after I walk away or turn over to go to sleep, she will then try to initiate intimacy.  This just leaves me completely confused.

Yes!  He ignores me, watches his ipad, and waits for me to be almost asleep, and then complains I did not initiate, gets fussy, and may start a full-on fight that will last for days.  He won't tell me what he wants, I'm supposed to know.  Or, if I get the "hint" and try to initiate, he will fuss and complain, freeze up, refuse to move, stare at the ceiling, like he's barely putting up with the contact he claimed he wanted.

[Woodchuck]

Yes!  He ignores me, watches his ipad, and waits for me to be almost asleep, and then complains I did not initiate, gets fussy, and may start a full-on fight that will last for days.  He won't tell me what he wants, I'm supposed to know.  Or, if I get the "hint" and try to initiate, he will fuss and complain, freeze up, refuse to move, stare at the ceiling, like he's barely putting up with the contact he claimed he wanted.

I am very sorry you are in that position.  I can't say I know exactly how you feel as men and women experience emotions somewhat differently but I understand to an extent.  I usually end up feeling either unwanted or like I am just a chore.  Before we had kids, the sex was great as she wanted to get pregnant but now it is almost always silent and in the dark and me having anxiety about what I should or shouldn't do because I really don't want to be pushed away.  Is it really that hard to say, I would love it if you... .?  Or to accept I would love it if you... .especially when she is the one asking what I would like.  We have been together for over 18 years, so it is not like she doesn't know what I like, so if the answer is going to be no, then why even ask... .It is all confusing and depressing.  Hopefully you are able to find a break through at some point.

Woodchuck

[pearlsw]

But the thing is, as you suggest, he was overwhelmed by the closeness, what the intimacy triggers : attachment and hence the fear of abandonment and engulfment.
Withdrawing sex also stands for a exerting control over the partner, it also is an expression of the ambivalence (their anger towards us acted out). I have experienced it as a passive aggressive behavior personally. Also as a way to protect himself, by his avoidance, he controlled the pace of us getting close or not. However he would be very affectionate in public, with constant public displays of affection. But in hindsight, I see it more as signs of a merging feeling than an "adult desire/longing" for another person.
I suggest you try some foreplay, massages but no sexual penetration, in order to reconnect to one another on a sensual level, without "overwhelming" him emotionally. This worked well for us.
In the end, the sex was less problematic and getting better and better, but the reason for that was it was more about having sex than making love. This way he could handle it. I guess when it was not too loaded with feelings, tenderness, love etc. I noticed he struggled with having eye contact during those moments, and certain positions would make it easier for him.

So to answer your question, not all people with BPD are over sexual as it is usually said, some withhold intimacy as a way to protect themselves and to exert control/punish etc. It is common for people with that pathology, but it doesn't mean it is normal for you and you have to put up with it. You were right to express your needs.
As my lover has now broke up with me, your question makes me realize that also was a big issue to me, the lack of sensuality, of emotional connection, his control over me (even passively it's still the same... ). And yet I would take him back, but I realize how this emotional disconnect made me feel unwanted, alone, shameful also (because not wanted and your needs are denied)... .

Hope this has helped you,

Sadrose

Hi all,

Thanks for sharing all of the really insightful comments here! Very thoughtful!

Hi Sadrose,

Thank you for taking the time to write this out and share your thoughts! This is very insightful and thought provoking!

Hi isilme,

I'm impressed by how clearly/efficiently you can express all of this - the subtleties and complexities around it all! There are some really deep insights here!

Hi Woodchuck,

Thanks for sharing your own confusion/issues on this intimate topic and being a part of this thread! It is so great to be able to share with others.

I know I struggled a lot on this topic, but was able to make some breakthroughs with it after feeling pretty hopeless and overwhelmed myself!

Please keep posting... .It is good to work out these issues and find ways to improve whenever possible!

sincerely, pearl.

[Woodchuck]

Hi all,

Thanks for sharing all of the really insightful comments here! Very thoughtful!

Hi Sadrose,

Thank you for taking the time to write this out and share your thoughts! This is very insightful and thought provoking!

Hi isilme,

I'm impressed by how clearly/efficiently you can express all of this - the subtleties and complexities around it all! There are some really deep insights here!

Hi Woodchuck,

Thanks for sharing your own confusion/issues on this intimate topic and being a part of this thread! It is so great to be able to share with others.

I know I struggled a lot on this topic, but was able to make some breakthroughs with it after feeling pretty hopeless and overwhelmed myself!

Please keep posting... .It is good to work out these issues and find ways to improve whenever possible!

sincerely, pearl.

Pearl -
Good morning!  Can you share what breakthroughs you were able to make?  It is a great feeling when you feel like you make some headway in something you have been struggling with.

Woodchuck

[isilme]

Hopefully you are able to find a break through at some point.

I'm 22 years into this.  I don't forsee much changing about it.  This is not every day or even weekly issue, but it IS cyclic and all I see I can do is radically accept it is what it is.  Sometimes, he will simply need to have a freak out about something, and at times, that will be sex, and no matter what the freak out is about, he needs it to be my fault.  All I can do is choose to not accept that blame, and work through SET and Tools as best as my own emotions allow. Rinse.  Repeat next cycle. 

[pearlsw]

Pearl -
Good morning!  Can you share what breakthroughs you were able to make?  It is a great feeling when you feel like you make some headway in something you have been struggling with.

Woodchuck

Hi Woodchuck,

Well, I had the opposite problem, but perhaps there is still something to be gained from it by sharing a bit. This is not how things are currently (that's another story), but in the past I began to notice he was hypersexual. I think he'd have sex with me 5 times a day if he could.

I am not against that *cough* occasionally, but for goodness sakes that pace does not feel healthy or "normal" to me for any extended amount of time. In fact, that was an issue I had. I felt like his sex drive was an illness, not a regular guy's sex drive, and that it was on hyperdrive and I could not keep up with it because it felt "off".

It made me feel used and... .it wasn't about an emotional connection. I don't want to be crude, so I'll leave it to your imagination just a bit how I felt about it if that's okay!

I noticed he also wanted it at the same times and would be VERY UPSET if he did not get what he wanted when he wanted it. It was a lot of pressure. On top of that he was not talking to me much, or spending much time with me, and it felt selfish of him, just lots of not fun things! Without talking to me all day and then show up for action at night it felt like it was all about him and his stress relief and not about a nice, healthy sex life.

It also gave me no chance to pursue him. Or take turns initiating. It's like I couldn't get an initiation in edge wise if ya know what I mean!  And that made him mad/hurt too. On top of all that he is not easy to talk to, so if I tried to talk any of this over, it was too emotional, he felt criticized/shamed and then more drama and problems, etc.

It felt like all paths were blocked! Nevertheless I persisted. I realized sex was like medicine for him and I had to separate it from how I felt about his behavior towards me, for awhile, to get back on track. If I turned down sex because he was awful, and he was awful a lot, then it would just ramp up the whole dysfunctional cycle.

So, I set up it up so he could still come and talk to me and hold my hand for example if he had made drama and was awful. I did not punish him. And of course, I have never used sex (cutting it off) as a form of punishment. I can't say he always got the A grade stuff, nope, but he was able to have it for the most part. Maybe it wasn't enough, five times a day, but he never went weeks and weeks without, at most a few days. Basically, I kept the sex life alive, imperfect as it was, rather than letting it die because I think it is much harder to get back at that point.

I also addressed the timing issue by just initiating it at earlier times. That made me feel more in control and that it was a choice, not a job, or duty, or feeding a monster.

This is not easy stuff, but I have to say it did save that part of the relationship and in my book if you don't have that (unless someone is physically ill or has a good reason, etc.) there is a big thing missing. Why do any of this if there is no intimacy? (just speaking for me personally)

I think if you can gain a sense of boundaries around this, acknowledge what is acceptable and what is not, you can get it to a healthy place. It was not easy. I had to square my principles with this and do some heavy mental lifting, but... .and things were never perfect in this realm, but they were not ruined entirely and I am SURE they easily could have been. I guess basically, I led and he was able to follow in time.

Back to the question of the OP, I think getting to zero sex is pretty serious - for any relationship. It hasn't been so long, but I'd start working on it, somehow because the longer it goes the less likely it is to come back I think. (And then what?) If that happened to me I'd try to do things that involved sexual intimacy, lots of play, talking, and joking to relax things, but with limited expectations around the outcome.

What would you do?

warmly, pearl.