Hey Divina and welcome to the forums.

Let me ask you a quick question.  What would you do if I drove to your house tonight, took your favorite jacket, then spit on you and spray painted you when I was confronted?

Because whatever that answer is, that's also what you should do with your daughter every single time she lashes out.

I get that your kid says she wants a loving relationship with you- that's really sweet.  I want to learn how to fly like Superman.  But the problem is, I've never done anything to begin my training...so I can't fly.  Words are meaningless without actions behind them.

Your title, "what does she want", if off-base.  Nobody here cares what she wants because we're here to help you.  And regardless of what your kid wants, we're going to tell you not to give it to her until she's treating you like a loving, respectful daughter.

Why?

Because she's abusive, but you continue to try to give, and she continues to get more abusive.  That tells us that she's not learning right from wrong, which is really your biggest job as a parent.  She has to understand that bad behavior gets bad results every time, while good behavior gets good results sometimes.

You have one play here- stop enabling her.  If she assaults you, call the police and have her arrested.  If she steals or screams or blames you, then ask her to leave your home.  Teach her right from wrong and stop allowing her to manipulate you.

I know that sounds ultra harsh, but enabling her bad behavior is making the living conditions a nightmare for everybody.  It's also keeping her from becoming responsible though, which will have drastic consequences for her later in life.  It has to stop for your sake and everyone else in the house.

Now, I will say that her borrowing a jacket and not returning it is not the end of the world.  It is wrong, of course, but you have to learn to pick your battles when dealing with BPD.  If it's that big of a deal to you, then find a suitable punishment (I'd cancel her cell phone until everything is returned...washed and neatly folded).  She will naturally rebel against the punishment, which is where you ramp up the consequences again (she's not welcome there until she apologizes).  You must stop walking on eggshells and accepting abuse.

Has anyone on her used DBT for their child?  If so, how did it go?  Were there any good results from it?

Are there any options anyone knows about for DBT therapy online that my 13 year old daughter can do?

Think of it this way.  Your wife doesn't want an apology. 

For instance, I can say "I'm sorry for that lousy thing that happened to you last weekend."

I have no idea what you did last weekend, but I'm sure one lousy thing happened.  So in a way, sure, I'm validating your feelings over something I don't know anything about...which probably feels really hollow to you.  How can Pook apologize for something he had nothing to do with and doesn't even know about?

That's how your wife feels because she doesn't want some random "sorry" thrown her way.  It's just words and it's meaningless.

What she actually wants...but what she never says...is for you to understand how she feels.

And you may think, who the heck knows how she feels.  She screams and then cries and then picks a fight and then wants to go to Dairy Queen like nothing ever happened.

I get that because I've been there.  We all have.  It's maddening and makes no sense at all.

However, you know what it feels like to be angry...or sad...or depressed...or frustrated.  If you saw that in a kid, or your mom, or really anyone, what could you say or do to help them process through those feelings?  You'd talk it out, you'd comfort them, you'd help them calm down in the moment and get a grip on what's happening.

That's what your wife wants you to do...even though she'll never actually say that in a million years.  What she wants is for you to be loving and kind and tell her that everything will be okay.

Then why the screaming and all the drama, you ask?  Well, that's the mental illness part of this...it doesn't make sense.  It's overflowing, out of control emotions that can't see left from right, and it causes pure panic in every possible direction.  Your job is to talk her past that, let her know you're not going anywhere, and just love her until the moment passes.

Maybe you'd say, "But you don't get it...it's ALWAYS LIKE THIS!!!"  I do get it though.  Once you start to connect and she can calm down, then it's not these crazy blowouts anymore.  All she's looking for is love and support...even though she says a billion other things. 

What she really means to say (but never says) is that she's insecure and has no idea what to do about it, or how to handle it, because you'd never understand.  And maybe you can't.  But you can understand sad or mad or other emotions...and you know how to comfort and soothe them.  That's where you start and it makes all the difference in the world.

Ah, if only I could do the same as you describe. Unfortunately I've been accused too often of delivering a fauxpology, with particular scorn for anything she perceives as "I'm sorry you feel that way". I do think there's a difference between "I'm sorry you feel that way" vs "I'm sorry for hurting your feelings [even though I don't think there's anything wrong with what I actually did]", but I think that difference is too subtle for her. Or maybe she just really wants a guilt-laden apology (she has said this at times).

I think maybe this comes down to the perceived moral dimension to these (claimed) transgressions. There are mistakes like bumping into someone by accident, and then there's punching someone in the face. In both cases we may apologise, but in the first there's hopefully no moral condemnation by the victim nor is there much of a feeling of guilt by the bumper. If both parties accept that the case in question is more like a bump than a punch, maybe it's feasible to give a "sorry for my role in your feelings being hurt" kind of apology. But if she sees it as a moral failing ("how could you be so inconsiderate?!?" etc) then, in my experience, nothing short of "I'm so sorry, I know I'm not considerate enough, I'll work harder to do better, please give me another chance" will do.

Thanks Kells. I am riddled with uneasy feelings... Second guessing. We have discussed it in marriage therapy. We both agreed this isn't the relationship we really want. Or probably ever has been. My wife was saying things like maybe we should try to separate for a while first. I said I wasn't keen on that, I believe that would really confuse and hurt the children and also is just an easy way of not saying divorce. But we agreed we wanted to stay friends for their sake and for parenting. She seemed to relax more when she heard that I wasn't just going to up sticks and leave. So we are taking it one session at a time, nobody filing. A mediator was even discussed. The therapist said she could help with this. It all felt a bit too reasonable to what I was preparing for... However it doesn't mean it will stay that way. I am committed to remaining calm and show that I care, and I am not just going to abandon her. (Like her parents did and really hurt here). Infact that is the main reason she wasn't wanting to divorce due to how they handled it..

Her main fears were a bit alarming, she was more focused on how I would be fine, and she would struggle, I would have money, she wouldn't. I would have a nice house, she wouldn't. It felt more competitive than actual concerns about missing me, or anything like that. Also how she would be all alone, and I have so much support etc etc. The therapist really perked her ears up and asked lots of questions when she started sharing the victim/ hard done by stuff and how my wife didn't think it would effect me.

But anyway there is hope there that this can be attempted peacefully with lots of professional support. I still feel so guilt torn, taking my kids out of their house, uprooting their lives. Keep feeling selfish and guilty and anxious. But the facts are there therapist said herself its a toxic situation, I am being abused, there is no intimacy, and neither of us feel it is the relationship we want or need. So I guess burying my head in the sand and wishing it was isnt going to change anything

Perhaps another perspective and communication change is needed.  Ponder the concept of "sins of omission vs commission".  Maybe there's not much difference, but in my book there is.  Mine were the "acting-in" sort trying to avoid conflict.  My ex's were the "acting-out" sort, which to me felt worse.

With that in mind, I felt I'd do better (or less worse) by apologizing, not for the incident, but for her feeling bad.  Did it work?  Not much in the long run, the marriage still failed, but It helped me to pull back from apologizing for anything and everything to get past the incident.

Yes I really did try to see whether "apologizing for anything and everything" would work.  It didn't.  If anything it got worse.  It got to the point that even when I apologized, she demanded I reword it to include what she wanted in it.  A few times I purposely left out pieces of the reworded apologies and she kept on demanding I restate it over and over several times.  She didn't even realize that I did it purposely, not due to poor memory of her long list.  After several months I finally declared I'd apologize only for what I perceived appropriate.

Also, if I didn't phrase it that way - her feelings - I'd be like the guy in court who couldn't claim innocence after taking a plea deal which admits guilt.  A court is unlikely to rule me guilty of hurting feelings, but might if I had confessed to doing something bad.

Thank you so much for making the time to read my long ramble and for responding. I do greatly appreciate it. It’s all so painful at times. And conflicting. I’m definitely going to check out the resources you mentioned. Thank you so much for that.I think it helps a lot not feeling alone and learning different skills to deal with it.

The relationship with her BPD mom is non existent. She has groomed my child and coaches her with several alienation tactics. She is high conflict and impossible to deal with for me. She creates false narratives about me still to this day after 15 years. She’s really sick.. She adds histrionics and chaos to an already challenging situation and creates the toxicity and dysfunction. I tried for years but there’s no way it ever works. Minimal communication is best.

In principle I agree, and I was doing essentially that for many years (without really knowing what was going on). The problem is that now so many of my one-sided apologies are being used against me as evidence that I'm the deficient one who needs to change in order to fix things. And if I don't, it proves that I've not learned my lesson (her words) and therefore I'm the reason why we can't be close. So I'm really struggling with how to handle the blame in a way that a) defuses the situation and yet b) doesn't sow the seeds of the next conflict.

I have proposed an amnesty, in which all grudges before today are forgiven and forgotten, but she was quite astonished that I would think that we could go back to a romantic relationship so quickly.

Tchabs,

Anger, confusion and sadness are understandable and justified.  Watching a beloved daughter self-destruct can make you feel all those things.  Sometimes witnessing a loved one suffer can hurt more than one's own suffering because we feel so helpless.  So to your list I'd add helplessness, bewilderment, despair, mourning and loss.

My diagnosed stepdaughter is a little older than yours, and probably has traveled a similar path.  She's had four suicide attempts.  I've lost count of how many hospital stays she's had.  She's received world-class treatment (McLean), but even that didn't seem to work at first.  She had to hit bottom, twice, before she realized SHE needed to change in order to feel better.  Until then she was blaming everyone else for her own poor choices and dysfunctional behavior, and she wasn't committed to therapy.

Maybe my stepdaughter had to exhaust all therapeutic options before the doctors explained to her that, the next time she tried to commit suicide, she would be committed against her will, because they'd already tried everything to help her and nothing seemed to work.  That was probably a wake-up call for her.  Another ultimatum came from her dad, who said that any continued financial support was contingent on her following the doctors' treatment plan.  She could choose to go her own way, but then she'd have to come up with her own money.

I'm writing to say that you aren't alone; many people on these boards have faced similar challenges.  You're also not to blame.  Your daughter is an adult, and she is responsible for her choices, no matter how misguided.  She's the one who needs to decide her approach isn't working anymore and that she's ready for therapy.  If she threatens or attempts suicide, you need to call 911 and get her to the hospital.  You can only hope that she'll learn that such gestures have consequences, sooner rather than later.

Finally I want to give you some hope.  My stepdaughter was in a bad way, and I felt that her probability of giving up and killing herself was pretty high, as she had dark moods and extreme impulsivity.  As I said, she tried it four times.  But since she heard the ultimatums and was desperate for things to get better, she started to work with her doctors and therapist.  She's making some progress in the right direction.  Though she's had some setbacks and she's developmentally still lagging behind, she's in a much better place now than a year ago.  And I think she's young enough to learn how to cope better with her emotions.

Here's the thing- you and I can debate literally any of the tough topics in the world right now (politics, religion, war in Israel, border crossings, COVID, etc) and there's a decent chance we wouldn't agree on everything.  Could we still build a relationship though?

Of course we could, as long as the thing we disagreed on isn't the basis of our relationship.

Right now, the basis of your marriage is arguing over who said or did what in the past.  Why does that remotely matter though?  Why are you wasting energy trying to say "I'm right" or "You're wrong" with the person you love?  What could you possibly gain from that other than a divorce?

It's like that old movie WarGames about nuclear war- the only way to win is not to play.

Look, I was married to a BPD wife for 25 years...and we had a BPD daughter.  I completely get it.  Just last week, my ex brought up something that happened 24 years ago, and her "recollection" was that it was 100% my fault and she was the victim.  That's not what happened at all, and we are divorced now.  So what's the point in fighting over that?  I simply told her that we both shared blame and I'm truly sorry for what happened. 

And she was silent- what could she say?  That thing hurt her enough to carry it for 24 years, so I apologized for my part.  In other words, I validated the valid, while lightly pointing out the invalid.  Just one quick, simple sentence filled with remorse and empathy.  I wasn't going to play the game, so I let her "win".

I didn't get an apology for her part in the argument 24 years ago, but I didn't need that either.  The simple truth is that I let that go 24 years ago like a typical spouse who's not mentally ill.  I did my part for her, to let her heal and let go, and our conversations the next several days were very different.  She wasn't on edge as much and she showed me more empathy for some things I'm dealing with.  So in a way, I "won" as well by choosing not to play the blame game.

You don't have to accept your wife's interpretation to fix things.  Instead, you need to stop playing the game entirely and get back to simply loving her.  That allows her to re-center and get back to loving you as well.  You're the "mentally stable" one here though and that means you have to take the lead.