Hello SendingKindness,

You can do this! You know that the mean words she says are not really what she means. When I was able to contact my daughter after the 11 years of her cutting me off I emailed her, it was not a gushy one about me not understanding why she left me and how much I missed her. I simply told her facts I felt she needed to know.

When she blasted me in an email (telling me that everything that has happened in her life was my fault), I was actually pleasantly surprised that she bothered to even write me back. That was how I knew that Her words were not what mattered, but what she was really doing (even though she probably didn’t realize) was reaching out to me.
As I thought about it later it opened the wound of her cutting me off, but was necessary for my own healing. I often feel like crying, I am often in the Word and I listen to Contemporary Christian music throughout my days (YouTube on the tv) and these things along with prayer bring me great comfort.

The disorder changes the messages they hear and what they say, focus on the emotions coming from the person.
And of course you know to not even try until they are calm. Another idea would be to take baby steps in setting boundaries, only seek to agree on one thing at a time and record this in a personal notebook (For your eyes only-do not say anything about this to her), it will help you keep track of what she will hopefully honor as agreed.

Since my daughter does not talk to me, she is also high-functioning and has her master degree, plus she has genius IQ. I know that she can make it on her own, which gives me comfort and, thankfully she has not asked me for money since she refuses to talk to me, so that may be a consideration.

I’m not going to lie, as you have experienced before, it is heart-breaking and I don’t know how I would do with handling this if I did not know God. But it does allow to focus on your own plans and desires.

OurWorld

I had a similar conversation with my T the other day.  I am having issues that as soon as my uBPDh transfers back to a normal/happy mode with me, I do too, with no discussion on what happened (usually I have no idea), how I felt when he was in his mood, who he is affecting, etc.  I keep telling myself that I want to start a discussion to talk about what had just happened, but I keep "failing" to do so as I just go with his mood.  My T asked me in the past has having any sort of deeper conversation ever been beneficial to our relationship?  The answer to which is no.  She asked me why I thought it would be different this time?  Which made me realize that it wouldn't.  She suggested that, as long as he is not being abusive, I try to accept the situation for what it is and remind myself that (again as long as he is not being abusive) he is doing the best he can in the moment and asking more in the moment won't work. 

Thank you for sharing your story!  It was encouraging but it made realize I’ve got a long way to go with my own situation.

I’m currently trying to get my wife to recognize what is going without using the term BPD.  Instead I’m using the phrase “extreme emotionalism” in reference to her behaviors. So far she is denying it but I’m not going to give up as the goal is to get her into therapy specifically for this issue.

Thanks again - I’m glad thing progressing positively in your family.

No formal diagnosis, but I probably have those traits at least. Interesting theory. I think being neurodivergent reduces the potential pool of partners to begin with, as many neurotypical  people may be turned off by the  social awkwardness  that can come with being  neurodivergent. So, when a Cluster B type personality enters the picture and someone seems to finally "get you" and the the idealization with the love bombing starts, odds are pretty good you're going to take the bait.  I think the only antidote is more self awareness and self acceptance. If I knew then what I know now . . .

No hope

Guys, I'm so done. I can't cope with all the hurt, my ex put me through. I've been through domestic violence. Here's my story:

So I was in highschool. That was 4 and a half years ago. I was actually broken too. Had several PTSD therapies and was absolutely broken. My childhood was tough as my father had BPD and was very abusive. My parents got divorced and we haven't spoken for 10 years, with my father. That's why I had PTSD. 4 and a half years ago, I met this girl. She was so innocent and lost. I knew, I had to ask her out. Things were quick. A month later, we started dating and my love for her only grew faster. On the other hand, her parents hated me from the very beginning. My father was arab and so my skin tone is slightly darker which is unacceptable, in my country. And as she is a pale blonde, they were upset because I'd probably ruin their pure white family with my genes if I ever had a child with their daughter. This was pretty hard pill to swallow..

Anyways, we remained dating. Everything was just perfect untill the day I took her to a camping site during summer holidays. Went for a hike and suddenly, she started crying, saying she's having this "crisis". The "crisis", ever since then, became her tool to make me try harder. That's when the emotional abuse began. She's had about 15 of those major crises throughout the relationship. Later on, she told me she was lost and didn't know whether she's not missing something while being with me. I fixed that and she switched back to loving me.
After that, things got worse. I mean, her demeanor was somewhat different. We started having arguments over NOTHING. But yeah, it wasn't that dramatic so far, so we remained together. Another year went by and I remember, I was like, 18? I took her out for shopping. Out of the blue, she told me to my eyes, I don't love you anymore. My heart was torn apart. I remained still. Told her that we could take a pause so that she could think it through. I gave her space. Man, it is excruciatingly painful when you tell them that you love them and they don't respond. I did everything she wanted. After a month, she switched back again. At this time, I realized, I wouldn't make it if I lost her. I've put her first in any aspect of life. I've sacrificed so much for her. Her demands were only higher and higher yet her respect for me went to zero. But still, another year passed by. The third year, I went through hell. My father called me. It was intense as we haven't spoken for 10 years. He told me, he has a cancer in it's final stage. Heartbreaking. I had to take care about him till the end. Meanwhile, my gf had a beef with her mother and I've decided to help her and take care of her problem as well as that of mine, with my father. I even ended up taking her mother to a restaurant where I had to explain, how it is important to communicate, in family. You get it? Me, a 20 yo, let's say kid, explaining this to a 50yo woman? WILD. I stood our ground and told her that we are moving. Did my girlfriend thank me? Nah. But before moving in together, I managed to find us a part time job abroad, for the entire summer holiday. I was so proud of myself that I could really manage to do this. We went there and the very first thing she told me was that she's about to have another crisis. It crushed me. We were supposed to help some old owners of a guest house. They only spoke their language, couldn't speak english nor our language, so clearly, I said, I have to learn their language so that I'd be able to communicate with them. My gf? She told ME to speak with them. After a month being there, I could speak quite well and she could barely say anything. Still, she blamed me for it and made a huge scene in public about it. Speaking of the huge scenes, she made these even in our country. She always did it in public, where she would start screaming, crying in order to make me look as an abuser in front of everyone. She did it many many times, mostly in shopping centers.

When we returned, we moved in together. Of course, I was the one who found us a dormitory to be. She didn't do anything for it. Our mutual life was okay, at least to her. I started feeling neglected and abused. The hell was only to begin. She started calling me names, making scenes in public so that I seemed as a total abuser even more frequently, gaslighting, blackmailing, humiliating, she hated my friends, hated my projects (podcasts), hated my opinions and everything I did was just wrong. Sometimes, it went physical. She blamed me for receiving an orphan's pension and not taking her out or buying her PLEASE READ. It hurts to write. Sexually, she liked to frustrate me for weeks or even a month. Then, when I naturally didn't last long, she threw a tantrum. Sometimes, she screamed at me during sex over something I did or didn't do during the day. Then, it got even worse. We didn't sleep together whatsoever and she started isolating me. Blamed me for going to my parents for a weekend, saying, I don't feel at home with her. She even forbade me lighting a candle on the day it was a year after my father died.
I was so lethargic. Didn't know what to do. She found herself some friends at work and started hanging out with them after work. I remember going for her to work in winter. It was so cold. She left me waiting outside for an hour only to tell me that she was in a pub, after work. I stopped going there. And she hated me for that. Then, she broke up with me. Just like that. She was so suspiciously over it. I asked her about any other guy and was told she doesn't have any nor does she want anyone else. I went home, to my parents. A few days after, I found out, she had a crush at work. Well, my panic attacks came back.

she seemed so indifferent but when I returned to that room, I saw, it was a room of a total mess. I found our photos on the desk, our products still displayed and my t-shirt, she clearly still slept in it. So damn weird. That's when it got really really suspicious. I consulted this whole situation with my psychologist and he said, by all that I describe, There's no doubt she has a BPD and I wouldn't ever change her. The end was INEVITABLE. But I didn't know much about BPD, back then. I didn't know anything about charming. She did it. She stalked me to school and made a huge scene in front of my classmates about how she still loves me and won't make it through summer without me. I rejected her and told her to go away. A few days after, I was so curious about what might happen. I just went to the room again and I shouldn't have done it. She took a pose. A mask of arrogance so that I can't hurt her. The first thing she said was that she's happy without me. It made angry and confused because it didn't make sense as she told me how she still loves me, before. I spat all the PLEASE READ she put me through, at her. I didn't scream or anything, but told her everything. She said things that hurt me but I hurt her too. I could see her "mask" breaking and her eyes flooding in tears. Oh god, I hurt myself by doing that. I suggested, I knew about her crush all the time. She acted indifferent. I left.

I feel shame. As a man, I should've acted more assertive. I just couldn't and so I came through the same hurt, as during my childhood.

I can't do this anymore. The pain is just excruciating.

Hi cheeseplease and welcome to the group 

It's so tricky when we need to do something for ourselves and our values, and we have a sense that it just isn't going to go over well. As reasonably kind people, we don't want to increase pain or conflict if it's at all avoidable... such a tough needle to thread when BPD is involved.

One thing I have to keep reminding myself of is that BPD stands for Borderline Personality Disorder -- I cannot assume "oh, pwBPD basically think and process like me, except with a diagnosis". Thinking and relating patterns are disordered, not rational/functional/predictable. So sometimes we think, "If I just phrased it as ____________, I think she'd feel cared for", or "once I find out the technique for communication, it's guaranteed I can get through to her", or "based on how it seemed like she felt lately, I bet now is a good time for me to say __________". I'm just not sure it's that predictable -- we don't have that level of control over how anyone feels, really, and over how a pwBPD feels, specifically.

That's not to say "do and say whatever, there's nothing you can do". There are some structured approaches to communicating with a pwBPD that can be more effective than "intuitive" ways we communicate.

For example, in terms of feeling a need to make a statement of truth about yourself, the Support, Empathy, Truth framework can help.

In terms of making a request or trying to problemsolve, DEARMAN can be effective.

And when stating what will happen, what you will do, or clearing up misunderstandings (especially in written communication), keeping it Brief, Informative, Friendly, and Firm may be the way to go.

But beneath all those approaches, it's our mindset that matters, especially for a question like this:


For me, big picture, I might be trying to find a balance between: I'm going to do the best I can to communicate in the most effective way I can learn, and I don't control my friend's perceptions, beliefs, feelings, or responses, and the way she responds to my communication isn't what determines whether it was the right thing to do.

Because BPD may be involved, she may not respond in a predictable way to your communication approaches -- I'd say that's a feature, not a bug, of BPD. It may take some sitting with your own discomfort, and some acceptance that you can't control the outcome, to make it through.

Drilling down into details, my gut feeling is to keep any communication about your plans short. Avoid long explanations, justifications for your choice, trying to "get her to see" your perspective, or giving off a sense of wavering or that she can argue you out of it. Warmth, empathy, and firmness may help:

"Hey, just a heads up that I need to move and my last day in the apartment will be 6/30 (I'll keep paying rent through 8/31). Can't wait to figure out a game night with you so we can stay connected!"

Who knows how she'll respond to that -- it may depend on whatever her inner experience is in that moment -- but returning to short responses full of warmth and desire to connect, may be more effective than Justifying, Arguing, Defending, or Explaining (or taking bait she may offer):

Her: "I can't believe you'd just leave me like that. I have no idea where you're coming from. Do you ever even think of anyone besides yourself?

"Yeah, it does suck, for sure. I don't love change either. What do you think about Fridays for a day to connect, maybe at wine night?"

...

Curious if any of that seems helpful or on target?

I have been thinking a lot about a similar question lately. But mostly about the second part, why do I feel attracted to Crazy (no valueing implied by me). I do feel there are some reasons that are specific to me and some others, but that are often lacking in this discussion.

I was late-diagnosed with ADHD a while ago, but never cared about it except for medication. Currently I am finding out that I also have a lot of ASD traits, maybe even enough for a complete ASD diagnosis.

Yeah, all my life I felt attracted to highly emotional reactive crazy type of women. I kind of don't need to develop a CRAYDAR. In my life I have been attracted to only two types of women, other neurodivergents or cluster-B women. If I am attracted to her, I can be absolutely sure by now she ticks at least one of those boxes.

One reason I think I feel so extremely attracted to cluster-B is that they often allow themselves to more openly show traits that I learned to mask. I have been abused or mobbed frequently whenever I tried to be openly myself, so this really is something I am missing in my life. And it would just be so great to be someone who allows himself to be more openly atypical and also to have another person in my life who feels the same way and can relate to feeling different from others. I found both types of women that I feel attracted to can deeply relate to this experience and this creates an instant bond.

Also I do share a lot of the emotional high-reactivity. Neurodivergence and cluster-B disorders have an extremely high overlap in terms of symptoms. BPD is a very common misdiagnosis for women with ADHD or ASD, so even professionals seem to struggle with detecting the difference.

It is something I am currently trying to come to terms with. I almost had a final breakup with my uBPDw a few months ago and reflected heavily on this and how I want to live my life in the future. Realizing I feel highly attracted to both cluster-Bs and neurodivergent women made me feel much less like a victim and showed me all the beautiful aspects these relationships have put into my life. It also helped me realize that I really have to work on my on unmasking to feel much less in need of following someone else in their atypical ways and to learn more about myself.

I think everyone has a filter that we experience things through. When I think back on the coach's response, I wonder- was it something I did? Or is it him? Are women frequently hitting on him so he assumes it? Or is he walking on eggshells that a comment like that would upset his wife? We can't know what someone else is thinking.

Is it your wife's interpretation that if a woman is friendly to you, then she's a threat? Or is it your radar and you picked up on crazy? Or is the cashier over the top friendly with everyone?

It's interesting as we do sense boundaries when we interact with other people. It would be interesting to consider what about the cashier made you feel uncomfortable. Was it her or was it being worried about your wife's reaction?

I think our radar for "crazy" is important and protects us from dysfunctional relationships, so good to pay attention to it. For whatever reason, you felt uncomfortable. Perhaps that's the most important aspect no matter what the clerk intended.

Agree with what NW said. Although it does sound like an odd way to compliment a customer, some people just don’t take themselves too seriously.
Working in healthcare, I see this all the time, with female workers saying oh I wish my husband would do that or I wish I had a partner like that, a way to say I wish someone I know would do so and so.

What would you say about workplace ‘husband’ and’wife’. If my husband told me he had a work ‘wife’, I wouldn’t be so insecure to worry about it, as long as there’s trust within the relationship.
I wonder if you are picking up on these signs because you have been falsely accused by your pwbpd.
I am training in a male driven field so I too have experienced what NW described with the sports coach. I had a chat with colleagues, sometimes not even giving compliments, just sharing a benign joke , not even personal, and I’ve had one raise his left hand to flash his wedding band and another quickly mentioned his wife in the next statement.
All that says to me is that my male colleagues were displaying their wife’s projected insecurities.
I’ve walked past some couples- a bit older than myself and watched how just being civil, like saying sorry or thank you while passing on a narrow pavement triggers the women’s insecurities, like they grab their partners arm tightly as if to say back off.
In my job I have looked after male patients whose partners are so insecure when I approach their husbands or boyfriends- being pleasant as my role requires- but triggering their partner’s insecurities.

Just my 2 cents- some people say  inappropriate comments in the name of being nice as part of their jobs.

NW,

   The discount was legit, it was posted in the window in the front of the store. 

   As always your perspective is appreciated as it is different from mine and offers a different point of view that I had not considered.  However, those were the words she spoke; however, her non-verbals, body language, she seemed a bit overly interested which made me feel uncomfortable interacting with her.

   I do have strong boundaries, especially when it comes to being loyal and my BPDw has questioned even more innocent interactions with other women - I know if my wife was with me at the time (she wasn't) this would have triggered her - I'm guessing part of it is still the walking on eggshells routine, even though this has improved dramatically in the past few months.