I'm starting to say "No, we can't" - need help dealing with what happens next...

[DaddyBear77]

Allow me to suggest you turn your phone off at night, or at least mute it / mute her!

I would second muting the phone, but if she has your D - that will be hard to do. But do try to enjoy some peace if you can.

Thanks guys - yeah, I have Do Not Disturb but with the ability for her to call through and have it ring. It's not great, but at least she has to think twice and do the extra step of calling. Anyway, with the time difference it's usually not that bad. I'm prepared to enforce boundaries if needed. My MIL is nearby in case of a dire emergency with D3

I know it's hard. I just set a boundary with my mother and received some pitiful messages on my phone basically her telling me how much I hurt her, that I'm disowned, she'll never forgive me. It's really hard to hear this.

I'm really sorry this happened Notwendy. I can truly relate.

But a few minutes later she calls a sibling and she's fine. She's projected her bad feelings and feels better. We are left with what we heard.

... .AAAAND I can relate to this, too 

Can you expand on this.  First blush is I want to challenge you on it.
I suspect that we will discover very big differences... .

FF - whenever DBw gets anxious or paranoid about something, I will ALWAYS tell her it's not true or it's not going to happen, even if I know for sure that is IS going to happen or it IS true. I have always been like this to some extent. I can give examples from all the way back to the beginning of the r/s if that would help.

[Notwendy]

An interesting book is "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus". It isn't about BPD but just the differences in how men and women use "talking" to relate to each other.

I don't generally like stereotypes, but our culture does reinforce communication differences. It seems more acceptable for women to share their feelings than men.

So, if a woman is sharing her feelings with a man, the book says she wants to be heard and she is processing her feelings when she speaks.

It says the man's impulse is to fix them, but when he does, the woman doesn't feel heard.

I ran into this kind of thing with my H. Everyone has worries, fears, concerns, but if I spoke to him about it, he would jump to fixing and solving.

One thing to consider is your own feelings when hearing your wife's anxiety. We  feel uncomfortable hearing someone else's distress. We think we are helping them by saying something to stop it, but we are actually "rescuing" ourselves from our own discomfort hearing this. So what may appear as "helping" is actually self serving and not helping them.

The task for us is to hold on to our own feelings in the presence of the other person's feelings. Hard to do when we don't have good boundaries- what is them, what is us. But we each have our own feelings and we can not really control someone else's.

So when your wife says " I am scared because I know you won't buy me that ring" "or because you are  going to declare bankruptcy" you jump in and lie- promise the ring, say you won't- in what you think is helping her, but you are rescuing yourself from how uncomfortable it feels to hear this. You think this will stop the conversation but it doesn't- she keeps on going.

Because when you do this, she doesn't feel heard.

Honesty and validation may be the harder route to take, but you may not feel so bad about not being authentic.

So back to "I am scared because I know you won't buy me that ring" "or because you are  going to declare bankruptcy"

Saying something like " I hear this is scary for you honey and I understand how scary it is to think we don't have money for things we want and need. To be honest, I am scared too, and wondering what is a good solution"

[Grey Kitty]

whenever DBw gets anxious or paranoid about something, I will ALWAYS tell her it's not true or it's not going to happen, even if I know for sure that is IS going to happen or it IS true.

Since this is an old pattern, it will be hard to break... .but I'm going to suggest that it is a really bad idea--because it is invalidating. Even if you aren't lying because the thing really won't happen.

"I'm scared of the monster under the bed."
"There's no monster under the bed."
Invalidation: Your fear is WRONG because the thing you fear isn't real.

[Notwendy]

I don't want to diverge off on my parents, as this will lead to the thread being split, but I want to say this as an encouragement and a warning to have boundaries. It is not advice to leave the relationship, but to maintain your own sense of reality and boundaries should you choose to stay in it.

When my mother says the things I wrote in the last post, if she really wants to hurt she brings up my father. She says he said he felt like he didn't have a daughter, as she says the same thing.

I had a great relationship with my father growing up and for decades. Or at least I thought I did. But it felt as if it was contingent on doing whatever my mother asked of me. I was basically their doormat. If I upset them, the dialogue was that they didn't have a daughter and would disown me. It was somewhat hurtful when mom said it, but when my father did, it was very hard to hear. But once they said it, they would feel fine, then forget what they said and seem to have no idea why their children avoided them.

My father kept a sense of himself and boundaries when he was younger, but once he retired, he was home with my mother 24/7. Without boundaries and with the constant giving in to her wishes and her reality, it appeared they were the same person. By this time my kids were older and my mother was trying to enlist them as her helpers and co-dependents. I had been a doormat, not standing up for myself, but when it came to my kids, that was it. My parents got angry at me.

When my father was ill, I tried to help and visit. When I did, it seemed I couldn't do enough for them- even though I would make him a nice meal, get things for him, my parents would both rage at me. It was too much for me emotionally. If I came to see Dad, I had to deal with my mother too. I finally just didn't visit. So then, they said I abandoned him. I called him almost every day, and my mother listened in on the other end of the phone. She read all my e mails. All I wanted from my father at this point was to know that he loved me, but instead, it was angry words.

My father has a daughter, a daughter who loved him and was willing to do anything to win his love- except hand my children to my mother. This was unforgivable in her eyes and my father shared her feelings.

I can't change the way my father saw things, but I hope I can change how you might see your D one day. I know that you love your wife, but please hold on to your boundaries. Please stand up for your sense of self and reality- so that you can also stand up for your relationships with the people who love you.

My next boundary with her is to not discuss what she says my father told her about me.  I have no way of validating any of it. I want to remember him as the father who loved me.

I hope this isn't seen as a hijack. I don't want to discuss parent issues- that is for the other board. I just feel that if I have the chance to help another father daughter-relationship, maybe my story will do that.

[DaddyBear77]

I  hope this isn't seen as a hijack. I don't want to discuss parent issues- that is for the other board. I just feel that if I have the chance to help another father daughter-relationship, maybe my story will do that.

Notwendy, this was an amazing post and a perfect place to interject a "bigger picture" message. We will do another separate thread on this, maybe over on Parenting, because it deserves it. Thank you. There's so much good here.

The big picture here, the common thread, is that I'm just absolutely NOT being authentic. Not to my wife, not to myself, and not to my daughter. Posting here is the closest I can come to being authentic, and I'm considering this a practice ground for "real life." It's a lot easier to disagree with you guys when I know you'll refrain from calling me an idiot or other such name.

Getting out of the house a couple hours ago was really hard. I consciously, repeatedly lied to my wife, telling her I would absolutely not call my parents, and that when I got back I'd work really hard and get lots of bonus money and I'd buy her that less expensive engagement ring before the 4th of July. We're supposed to leave that week for her overseas residency period that's part of the masters program her mother is paying for. Anyway, I kept lying and invalidating telling her everything would be ok even when she said she knew it wouldn't be.

It's going to crash and it's going to crash hard. I just wish there was a way I could bring this all back to the ground safely.

[Grey Kitty]

Well... .at least you got out of the house!

I'm curious--do you think your wife believed your lies?

[DaddyBear77]

I'm curious--do you think your wife believed your lies?

That's complicated.

I know for sure that she's counting on me to deliver on my promise of a large diamond ring and a destination vow renewal ceremony. She's also counting on me to not speak with my parents, because of her firm belief that they are toxic.

I think she has serious doubts about my ABILITY to deliver (which is sensible) AND my WILLINGNESS to deliver (to which she says, if you wanted to, you would find a way). Those are two separate issues to me, but to her, as I said, they're connected.

And that goes to the very heart of why she's asking for such over the top items like this ring, the previously-purchased expensive earrings, vacations, etc. My best guess at why this happens is that she sees no value in herself, she only sees value reflected from others. If I demonstrate my love and admiration for her - through expensive jewels, constant expressions of love, sitting here on this flight and constantly texting her - she exists. Otherwise, she's worth nothing. Same for this grad school program she's attending. The mere fact she was accepted to a prestigious program has given her extraordinary  external validation. And as one more example, the counselor she's seeing uses validation of her claims of being abused to help bolster her esteem - which is great in circumstances when someone is ACTUALLY being abused, but here, not so much.

Those are my thoughts. Not sure how close I am. Probably need to keep thinking about it more.

But to answer your original question - I think she really hopes it's true but she is pretty sure it's not true.

[Notwendy]

We are actually talking about the same thing: authenticity. My example was from a different perspective. I was not being authentic in my own FOO and then other relationships.

I think all relationships involve a level of cooperation and sometimes compromise. But not being authentic involves giving up a core value and in a sense abandoning yourself. It can mean adopting another persons sense of reality over our own - believing what they think or feel, instead of what we do. It means accepting their definition of our feelings, motives, who we are, not ours.

What I illustrated was a possible future with a grown child- because it's an example of what you are struggling with now. A marriage is a very important relationship- even the most important some may argue. But to me - a very sacred relationship is parent - child. Both ways- one that I don't think should be cut off except in extreme circumstances. Yet you are willing to cut your parents off even though you don't want to just because your wife wants you to. This is abandoning your core value and in addition probably hurtful to them. But you are choosing your wife's wishes over this.

You may very much want to give your wife expensive things but you know you can't afford them. Yet you go along with her version of reality over yours.

It is a challenge because the consequences can be significant. I understand the kind of anger and disappointment you can face.

[Grey Kitty]

I think she has serious doubts about my ABILITY to deliver (which is sensible) AND my WILLINGNESS to deliver

And as one more example, the counselor she's seeing uses validation of her claims of being abused to help bolster her esteem - which is great in circumstances when someone is ACTUALLY being abused, but here, not so much.

Two promises: Buying a ring. You know you won't be able to deliver that... .well, maybe not. Perhaps you could still do further damage to your household financial situation, and find the credit to buy it. You might lose the house over it, but perhaps you still CAN?

Not calling your parents: You aren't willing to do this, and don't even intend to do this at all.

BTW, regarding your wife's claim that she's being abused... .

Neither of these things qualifies as abuse--I know it, and you know it.

However, lying to her like this about it is disturbingly close to abuse.

[Notwendy]

My best guess at why this happens is that she sees no value in herself, she only sees value reflected from others. If I demonstrate my love and admiration for her - through expensive jewels, constant expressions of love, sitting here on this flight and constantly texting her - she exists. Otherwise, she's worth nothing.

I think the lack of sense of self is at the bottom of this. If her sense of self is based on you buying her things, then when you don't, you in a sense, destroy her. She can perceive this as abuse.

I think this sense of being abused (victim mode) is an important idea to consider. Also if there is a belief of this, this can add meaning to when you are not able to do what she wants. My situation was a bit different (milder) but my H would interpret my not cooking dinner, ( I cooked most of the time but sometimes got busy or had an activity with the kids), not wanting sex ( ie what started this was morning sickness during pregnancy- I assumed he would see that I was nauseated) - as absolute rejection, I hated him, he was worthless. He would then set out to retaliate by rejecting me, giving me the ST or raging at me. My own FOO experience led me to buy into that reality- I believed I was to blame for his unhappiness because I didn't do what he wanted, and I easily bought into his feelings that I was a bad wife if I didn't meet his needs. See the connection?

It is a challenge to hold on to your own sense of self, who you are, your values- when you are being told otherwise- that your boundaries are abusive, that you are willingly not giving your spouse what they want because you are hateful and abusive. Just like your bank account is low, which has nothing to do with your wanting to buy your wife what she wants- sex isn't very appealing when pregnant and nauseated. Yet the interpretation- that somehow you/I did this on purpose to be abusive is based on feelings, not the actual situation and buying into that is sharing distorted thinking.

Somewhere is your bottom line. I don't know what that is- and it is different for everyone. I believe that if your wife ordered you to murder someone ( heaven forbid) you would say no way, that is wrong, no matter how upset she was. I hope that murder is so much of a core value for you that no matter how upset she is, you won't do it. My parents did get to a core value for me- my children. I wanted them to have a relationship with their grandparents and they did. They adored my father. Yet, when they got old enough to be of help to my mother, she started to enlist them as her emotional caretakers. I couldn't allow this. Yet the consequences of saying no to my mother was perceived by her as abuse.  Despite the fact that they do have a caring daughter, a "no" to them was perceived as unforgivable abuse and being disowned. This was very hurtful and something I didn't understand at the time- but it got me into counseling, and 12 step programs and on the path to being authentic.

It is an important step to be able to hold on to my own sense of self and reality when someone else thinks otherwise.

[DaddyBear77]

However, lying to her like this about it is disturbingly close to abuse.

I'm having a hard time with this comment.

On the one hand I agree, but I can't quite put a name and description to the kind of abuse. Maybe gaslighting (I know you don't like that term). I don't know.

On the other hand, I know my intentions aren't evil and my intentions certainly aren't to abuse her.

[Notwendy]

I think there is a narrow definition of abuse- where someone beats their spouse or children. Ironically, abusers also do not have bad intentions and they love the person they beat. They also act in a loving manner to them. The beating part of abuse is actually part of a larger cycle- abuse, remorse, and then a honeymoon type loving phase, then the abuse happens again. It is very hard for someone to leave their abuser, because of the genuine remorse and loving side of it. They know their abuser doesn't have bad intentions and it is confusing.

Abuse fits the drama triangle. When abusive, the abuser truly is in victim mode, and lashes out believing he/she is justified. It is a projection of bad feelings. Once the feelings are out, the abuser does see the consequences, is remorseful and loving but the cycle continues until something changes. A fear of abandonment is often a part of this too- for both the abuser and the abused.

Abuse fits the addiction model with drama and strong emotions that are addictive in themselves and the up and down of these emotions.

Beyond physical abuse is emotional and verbal abuse. One might include controlling behavior in this.

When looking at my own co-dependency, I thought of myself as selfless and giving, but behind that is control- of other people's feelings. If I walked on eggshells and managed other people's distress, I was basically managing my own uncomfortable feelings at having people not be happy with me- by managing their feelings. If I was being inauthentic, I was basically protecting myself and giving them a false impression.

If your wife requests something you can not afford, or asks you to do something you have no intentions of really doing ( like not calling your parents) and you say yes, you may be temporarily reassuring her but you are also not being truthful- and she may eventually be let down. Your may believe your intentions are good- but really? Who are you rescuing with this- her or you from facing the consequences of saying no?

Abuse may be a strong word for that, but "using" may be something more understandable. Addicts may use drugs to escape their own bad feelings. Co-dependents use people- by people pleasing. But is this good for the other person? That's a hard idea to face, something I didn't like to consider when looking at my own co-dependency. So one can talk about drug abuse in this context- so abusing people and relationships to feel better can apply to co-dependents.

[DaddyBear77]

Beyond physical abuse is emotional and verbal abuse. One might include controlling behavior in this.
... .
abusing people and relationships to feel better can apply to co-dependents.

Wow. I really get this. Thank you Notwendy.

The first thing that struck me in what you said is that controlling behavior can be included in any definition of abuse. I agree with that. I just refused to look at what I am doing as controlling. But there's no question that it is.

The last thing that struck me are the connections between addiction and abuse. I am avoiding the addiction analogy because I believe caretaking and co dependency are a thing all on their own. But it's clear in this that codependants CAN and DO abuse their partners.

I mean it. Thank you. This is really powerful.

[Notwendy]

This was a difficult connection for me to make. The term "codependents use people" was hard to grasp. I was pretty puzzled when our MC sent me to 12 step meetings. Neither my H or I have any issues with alcohol or drugs. So while co-dependency is something I need to work on, I found myself being assigned the AA blue book, and sitting in meetings that included alcoholics and addicts. There was the "what am I doing here" feeling.

Eventually I was able to see addiction as a pattern that could be acted out with relationships, drugs, alcohol, shopping, gambling, and a number of thing and while the thing being used for the addiction might be different- and so different consequences like hangovers, or financial issues- the pattern of addiction was similar.

I eventually learned to recognize what I call an "emotional hangover"- the feeling I got after engaging in emotional drama. The next day I would feel as if I had a hangover. ( something I only experienced after turning 21 and celebrating the milestone with friends and realizing this was yukky) . You know the feeling after a circular argument or emotional blow up. The group did use the term "emotional hangover" and "emotional sobriety" and I began to understand it.

[flourdust]

On the other hand, I know my intentions aren't evil and my intentions certainly aren't to abuse her.

What do you think your intentions are?

To me, it looks like your intentions are to avoid conflict and hard choices as much as possible, by saying whatever you think your wife wants to hear at the moment. This doesn't solve anything, but it only procrastinates dealing with the consequences, and possibly makes those consequences worse for both of you when they finally do land.

Is that a harsh interpretation? Is it wrong?

[Grey Kitty]

On the other hand, I know my intentions aren't evil and my intentions certainly aren't to abuse her.

I suppose that sadists and sociopaths who are evil and enjoy death, mayhem, and destruction exist. That said, I don't believe I've met one.

The common threat behind abuse is the need to control the other person. A person behaving abusively is acting to control the other person.

Your wife does it to you due to her mental illness. And I suspect she's trying to control you in order to save her from her anxiety and other feelings.

When you succumb to your codependence, your fears of her reactions and rages, you are at risk of trying to control her. Like when you lied knowingly to her to get out the door safely.

[BeagleGirl]

DaddyBear,
I know the term "abuse" is really hard to stomach.  Heck, I still struggle with it and I'm the one who has been abused.

Whether you accept the "abuse" label or not (and I think it's worth doing some reading on the subject of emotional abuse and some guided introspection) I am glad to see that you are starting to realize that what you are doing is hurtful and harmful to you, your wife, and your relationship.  Recognizing and taking responsibility are big steps forward.

Here's where your viewpoint on what you have been doing may have bigger impact.  If you see your behavior as "unhealthy" and your goal is to start using tools to cope with the situation and re/act in a more healthy manner, then a step by step approach is reasonable and advisable.  Don't try to eat the elephant all in one sitting. 

If, on the other hand, you see your behavior as "harmful", then your approach should be more aggressive.  First - do no harm.  That means that you don't just aim for better communication.  You STOP the harmful communication.  You STOP lying.  Not "I'm going to stop lying about this thing now, and next week I stop lying about that thing". 

Remember when I asked when you wanted your new start?  This is what I was talking about.  It's not the day that your relationship is fixed, or you get through to your wife.  It will probably be the beginning of a period of h3ll, the likes of which you have only imagined.  But what will get you through is the knowledge that you are a unwilling to continue being untrue to yourself, your wife, and your daughter.

I have a close friend whose husband tried to "ease" into confessing a 5 year affair that had left his mistress pregnant and him wanting to leave his wife and their 3 daughters.  Each new revelation was another death of the trust she thought she could have after the previous revelation.  As she would say "He was an idiot and only cared about protecting himself from my righteous anger".  My advice - don't be an idiot.

So what CAN you do?  Spend this time away from your wife learning the truth of who you are and who you want to be.  You have no hope of presenting that truth to her if you don't know it in yourself.  We can help you on some of it, but it really is a personal journey.  I think you've had your bags packed for this journey. 

Start with something like the ring -
Your lie - you will buy her THE ring, or something almost as good
Her lie - you are a monster and/or don't love her if you don't buy her THE ring or something better.  And do it by July 4th.
The truth - You will be a monster and acting selfishly if you give in to her tantrums and spend money you don't have on something she does not need.  You will be a man of integrity and love her most authentically if you act responsibly and care for the real needs she and your daughter have, save for the possibility of a "rainy day", and THEN save for a token that will remind her of the husband who cares for her now and is already caring for her future.

She probably wouldn't hear and acknowledge this truth the first or the hundredth time you shared it with her.  She may NEVER hear or understand it.  But YOU will.  YOU will know that you have loved her to the best of your ability.  And I trust that your daughter will know too, someday.  Bonus:  If things do get to the point where you would consider leaving the marriage, you will be able to do so knowing that you were the best husband you could be and won't be going back onto the dating market as a cowardly liar. 

I hope you know that I believe in you.  I believe are ready to face the truth head on and are strong enough to have it shape you.

[formflier]

On the other hand, I know my intentions aren't evil and my intentions certainly aren't to abuse her.

I'm going to agree this is uncomfortably close to a line of abusive behavior.  I totally understand there may not have been an intent to abuse.

The point here is not to flesh out if this was... .or wasn't abuse.

The point is to learn to be "intentional" about not abusing, about not (fill in the blank... where the blank is bad r/s behavior).

Knowingly lying to pause or kick the can down the road of and argument that is going to happen is certainly BAD R/S behavior.

I've done it as well.  I used to claim lack of knowledge to avoid a conversation.  Now I "more accurately" say "I'm not comfortable discussing that right now... "

blah blah blah... .why aren't you comfortable... .you are hiding things... .blah blah... .

"I'll send you an email invite for a time that works for me to have this discussion... ."

walk out of the room and let her do her thing... .

FF

[DaddyBear77]

Hey everyone! I'm back ... .did you miss me?

So... .it's been a couple of days, and I've been pretty deep in thought... .

The first thing I came up with is: I don't think I really like myself very much. I feel like this has taken a real downward spiral over the past few years, too. A couple things came up that made this self-loathing pretty clear to me, but normally I just let this go on under the radar and deny it to anyone who asks. I don't think that's such a good idea for me to do anymore. I'll get on this.

The second thing I realized: I am completely and totally exhausted, in every sense. Physically, mentally, emotionally. I had wanted to make these 4 days away from home super productive, but most of the time I feel like I can't even wake my brain up! I feel really frustrated and defeated, and now I'll be back home in less than 24 hours, with no other opportunity to get this kind of space away for the foreseeable future.

The third thing I realized is related to another important aspect of my life - my job: Ever since I switched roles at my job about 9 months ago, I am REALLY not happy with my work life any more. This trip has really brought that to light - I had dinner with my old boss and some team members a couple nights ago, and it was great! My new boss isn't even here, and my new co-workers just can't engage on the level my old team could. It's really frustrating, but in many ways, it's the least of my current worries.

So, ok, those are the big thoughts and challenges that have been popping up. I felt like they were blocking me from thinking about the issues waiting for me at home. But as I'm writing this down, I'm realizing, duh, ok, so these probably are EXACTLY the things I needed to think about this week, to clear my mind for a fresh go at the issues at home.


So... .

What about this whole thing with "abuse" - leading my wife on, trying to control her emotions, portraying a rose colored completely false picture of what's really going on?

Yeah, it's bad.

If I allow myself to be completely honest, I know I have crossed the line, if not before this recent set of issues, I'm certainly there now.  I don't think I'm ready to stand up and say "Hi, my name is DaddyBear and I'm an abuser" - but I think it's time I stood up and said something like "Hi, my name is DaddyBear and I'm a co-dependent caretaker with some serious problems that are hurting and harming my wife."

To put it quite simply, I need a completely different, healthy, non-abusive way to deal with MY feelings. At the same time, I want to be completely respectful and considerate of my wife's RIGHT to feel what she feels, believe what she believes, and be whoever she is. But not let that change what *I* feel, believe, and am.

To add to the complexity of achieving the above goals, I know that the minute I reconnect with things at home, whether it's via text or phone call later tonight, or when I land back home tomorrow, the sh!$ty feelings I have will pile on exponentially.

So what do I do?

Do I keep hurting my wife while I find this new way to soothe? NO. Absolutely not.

Ok, great, that's the right answer. Got it. But... .

What do I do when the horrible, painful feelings come flooding in, and overwhelm me, and remove all capabilities of rational thought?

This is where I'm stuck.

What healthy things can I do to deal with the intense feelings that come up when I finally end the abusive, hurtful control and manipulation? All I can come up with are unhealthy ideas - drugs, alcohol, avoidance, just not ending it in the first place.

I know I need a better answer here, and I need one quick. My flight lands back home in less than 24 hours, and if I am truly going to stop hurting my wife, I can't rely on any of the old ways.

Help?

[BeagleGirl]

   
I, for one, am glad to see you back and did miss you. 

I am also proud of you.  The steps you are taking are HUGE.  It may feel like you've got more questions than you started with, and definitely more questions than answers, but don't discount the importance of getting to the RIGHT questions. 

So how do you deal with the h3ll that will break loose when you start taking action on becoming a man you can live with?

I hope that, like me, knowing that you are doing the right and loving thing will provide some level of peace and refuge from the pain.  Mantras and some physical symbol that reminds you of that can be helpful.  You will want to come up with something that you "own", but I had some Bible verses snippets that became my mantras.  One of the most powerful ones was "And such were some of you", the beginning of 1 Cor. 6:11.  I WAS an adulteress.  Past tense.  Now I was a "new creation".  Gal. 6:9 was another one that got distilled down to "If we don't give up".

There are a lot of coping tools, and you will need all of them.  One of the coping tools I now use is this site.  I hope to see you here often.    I'll see if I can think of more tools, but for now just know that I'm praying for you.

BG

[Grey Kitty]

What can you do?

First, yes, show up here and tell us what is going on, what you are doing well, what you are struggling with, and what is driving you nuts or shredding your heart.

Second... .you are physically, mentally, and emotionally exhausted. Start with that. You'll be on an airplane. Listen when they say "put your own oxygen mask on before assisting others."

If you are going to do right by your wife and take care of her, help her... .If you are going to do right by D3 and take care of her... .you need to be strong.

That means take care of yourself FIRST. If you do that, you will have more energy and skill to apply to taking care of them.

I think you will be surprised how much strength you have... .and how good it feels to start using your strength.

[formflier]

Do I keep hurting my wife while I find this new way to soothe? NO. Absolutely not.
 

1st... .follow GK advice and put on your own oxygen mask.  Self care is top priority.

2nd... .I get what you mean by your statement above... .but I think you are taking it too far.

Just because you enable someone to do xyz... .doesn't "cause" them to do it.  It's part of a dynamic.  You are responsible for your part... your wife is responsible for her part.  She is responsible for her emotions and her hurt.

My understanding of what you are doing is very... .VERY different than walking up to someone and kicking them in the shin... .

In that case... you are responsible for hurting them.  It would be your fault.

If you wife does something dysfunctional and you have a dysfunctional "response" and your wife is "hurt".  You are responsible for you part of the dysfunction... .HOWEVER... your wife has 100% control to stop the hurt.

I get it... .you do have a roll to play... .don't take on responsibility that you shouldn't.

Get a good nights sleep... .and a good breakfast... .things will look better.

FF

[ortac77]

Hi Daddybear

I really empathise with where you are, as has been shared above you need to look after yourself first. You are asking yourself some difficult questions, I can understand that, it is exhausting and painful.  First and foremost it has taken me a long time to understand that my history of 'people pleasing' has always led me to attract and be attracted to needy people.

I had this image of myself as some kind of saintly altruistic strong person... .but I actually never rescued anyone, they lived their life as they chose to and those relationships fell apart. I was hurt, they were hurt - always their fault in my mind, if only they did what I believed was right all would have been 'peachy' -how could it be me?

Since living with a pwBPD I can now see that I am broken, not damaged beyond repair but needing an emotional and spiritual rebuild. I now see me as co-dependant, very needy, core trauma from a difficult childhood - just had the crazy illusion that my needs were met by helping others. They were not and they never can be and that leads me to some tough self questioning as well, I find myself questioning my controlling behaviours as abusive, I thought it OK to justify it in terms of helping, but who was it helping? Not them, not me.

I am (mostly) not beating myself up over this, but slowly working through the realisation that I need to change for my own sake, I can only take responsibility for my 50%. This is tough, my old thinking fights me every single day - its like being on a long journey where I have made many diversions and taken myself down blind alleys - I finally (metaphorically) find my journey has taken me to the cliff edge! I have to retrace my steps, I need to find the right road to my future and that means carefully studying the map.

This journey is painful, but if I am to stop hurting myself and others I must endure that pain.

[Notwendy]

DB- Although it is hard, I think it is wonderful that you are recognizing your feelings- which lead you to find relief in your behavior with your wife. When we focus on someone else- it takes the focus off us, and while that provides some temporary relief, it really doesn't address what we need.

You are correct that dealing with these feelings in other ways that are not emotionally healthy- drinking, drugs, gambling, are not helpful in the long run.

Actually many people who deal with alcoholism, or other addiction, work at stopping the substance- and when they stop, they are left with the feelings that cause lead them to using the substance in the first place. Then they need to work on them.

For me personally, it took walking into a 12 step co-dependency group to do the work I needed to do. I know there may be other ways to do this, but not in my area. Even counseling ( although I think it is important to do both) didn't get to these feelings as well as a 12 step group did- but one needs the whole program- a sponsor too and doing the work. Going to meetings alone doesn't do it all- but they are important too. It's not obvious at first- but the rules to share and focus on yourself- not to cross talk ( reply to another person by giving advice) are a step towards boundaries- the person speaking has to stay focused on themselves, and when listening, we have to focus on that, not giving advice. Can you see how this simple rule helps with co-dependent traits.

I know it is hard to read the posts that discuss abuse- and focus on your issues here. But that kind of honesty ( with true concern for you) is the nature of the sponsor relationship. It isn't comfortable to have a sponsor turn a mirror on you but I am grateful for that relationship. And when the bad feelings you describe seem overwhelming- what do you do? Pick up the phone, call a sponsor or another member, go to a meeting.

Growing up, I learned to not connect with other people for support. You can see how that happened. I was expected to be my mother's emotional caretaker, and my father was so focused on her. If I went to my parents for emotional support ( as kids do- maybe a spat on the playground, or a friend said something mean) they were not able to be there for me. This isn't a criticism. My mother has a mental illness, and likely, my father, who you know I thought the world of, felt like you. They did the best they could.

We talk about healing childhood issues, and the sponsor relationship begins to do that. It isn't parent- child. But it is a person who hears all your flaws, then sticks with you - along with others who have similar issues. It is this- not walking alone that is helpful. This board also does this, and so does counseling. But counseling is only once a week and most areas have more 12 step meetings than that.

This is what helped me. Others may have different experiences, but I was willing to give it a try and am glad I did.

[DaddyBear77]

Thank you for the support everyone. I feel like I'm heading down a very hard, very lonely road.

Something I just remembered. My pwBPD left me for someone else temporarily. Not sure I'd call it an affair although during that period we both technically committed adultry. Anyway, my pwBPD told me that her lover never made her feel less than, he didn't make her feel dumb or incapable. I never wanted to process what that meant about me - i just embraced the anger and hurt I felt about there being another lover. But I think she was telling me I was / am co dependant. She knows at some level.

I know it's not too late for me, but I wonder, maybe it's too late for the r/s? Was the r/s something that was ever going to really survive in the first place?

Big questions for the flight home I guess.

Thanks again everyone.

[Notwendy]

DB, there can be some black and white thinking in an affair. The other guy is all white, while you are the problem. The more honest truth is that the two of you ( you and the other guy) are humans- not all good, not all bad.

Affairs are easy- they don't deal with all the hard stuff of a long term relationship. They can be an escape. The other person is a blank slate, can be on their best behavior. Marriage is every day- you see the other person at their best, at their worst. You deal with real life joys and stresses together.

To compare a spouse with an affair partner is really unfair. Chances are, if there was a long term relationship with the other person, the same issues would arise. Your wife is who she is- she brings all her stuff into any relationship and so do you. Having another partner will not make all her BPD issues go away. She may be able to keep it together during an affair but not over the long run.

You keep wondering about if you are good for her, or the relationship. I don't know DB, but I don't think that is where your focus needs to be. You have said it yourself- you are emotionally drained and hurting. Before you can be good for anyone- you need to be good to you. I'd like to see your thinking lead to another direction- how to take better care of yourself- it means getting support ( counseling, 12 steps or what else is available to you) and some general self care- exercise, do something you enjoy like take a walk, visit a museum, whatever you would like.

The Dr. Phil show may not completely reflect real life. I don't know if anyone gets their problems solves in an hour, but I do like his advice. One thing he says is " You don't solve a problem between two people by bringing in a third". An affair may feel good at the moment, but it doesn't really solve the issues. But to love yourself - is a good thing because if you can do that ,and be good to you, you can then be good to others.

[Grey Kitty]

I know it's not too late for me, but I wonder, maybe it's too late for the r/s? Was the r/s something that was ever going to really survive in the first place?

Is it too late for your marriage isn't a question that will help you much. It is actually two questions:

1. Can you find the strength to say "no" when you need to, and protect yourself (and D3) from her abuse with good boundary enforcement?

This is what YOU need to change if you can stay in your marriage. If you cannot do this, you won't survive the marriage, and need to end it for yourself.

And in the meantime, put your efforts into doing the best you can at this part!

2. Can your wife forgive you for the past lies, and can she handle a r/s with you when you are strong enough to say "no" to her?

That's her choice about staying in this marriage. You don't get to make it for her. Try not to lose yourself in wondering what she will do/if she can. Leave her choice to her.

And ruminating about her prior "affair" or if she will have another one isn't going to help you either. Focus your worries on things you can control--your own actions, your own words.