Starting to freak out and don't know what to do. (dating for 3 months)

[Americansplendor]

Hi,

I've been dating this girl for almost 3 months now. The first time I met her I felt an instant connection, like I've had known her for years. We started dating and it felt like a drug. We met on Tinder.

Couple of weeks later, she told me she had BPD (no medication) and that she wasn't looking for a serious relationship at the moment, just fun. I was alright with it, since she's 21 and I'm 29. Obviously I wasn't really concerned cause we were seeing each other 3-4 times a week and I even met her parents. Things were good.

Over those few weeks, I fell for her, I had never really had this kind of feeling before for somebody else(and I've dated A LOT in my 20's). Obviously I didn't tell her about my feelings because I didn't want to freak her out.

Now I've been seeing her for almost 3 months and I feel like things are becoming different.
For instance:

- I'm almost always the one to initiate a date/physical contact
-She told me that she could never love me because I'm too easy. I told her I didn't want to play any games because seriously, at almost 30 I'm way past that.
- We used to keep in touch everyday. Not so much anymore.
- She told me that she would like to die.
-She recently had a threesome with 2 of her friends (both girls).
-She smokes pot everyday.
-She's still on dating apps.
-She joked that she could help me find a girlfriend
-She never met her real dad and sometimes jokes about having "daddy issues".
-She told me that she recently started to read more about BPD.

Is it because the "honeymoon phase" is over?

Now, I'm worried about her. Obviously I don't want to stop dating her, even though all signs point to that. I'm not ready to date other people. I tried and even had sex with other girls but just couldn't stop thinking about her.

Last time I saw her was Saturday night. We don't have anything planned this week. I figured I would play it cool and wait for her to get in touch. Thus I was wondering if that was a good idea.

In the meantime, I think about her all the time and worry she won't want to date me anymore. I wish there was a way to cope with this stress besides the usual exercise, keeping myself busy, seeing friends.

Thank you for your help.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[flourdust]

She told you she was unstable and she told you she doesn't want a relationship. Up front, even! That's a gift.

You don't want to believe it, and you're hurting yourself as a result.

Accept who she is and that this is all she wants from you, and not for much longer. Or end it yourself if it's too painful not to have that stronger bond you want. Those are your best options.

[livednlearned]

Hi Americansplendor,

I'm sorry for what you're going through and glad you found the site. BPD relationships can be very intense, and very confusing. It is a good sign, like flourdust mentioned, that she told you she was BPD and was clear about what she wanted. Understandably, you have feelings for her and want more from the relationship.

People with BPD tend to self-invalidate themselves and experience intense hopelessness. A lot of her behaviors likely stem from desperate attempts to avoid these feelings, and to feel like she belongs somewhere. Impulsivity is often a core feature of BPD, too. To avoid emotional and psychological pain, she is going to get her needs met in the moment even if the way she gets those needs met are going to cause more problems.

Warmth and closeness are likely to make her more avoidant. She may be feeling your feelings intensify, and is pulling away to try and regulate any attachment on her part.

Definitely don't want to let yourself fall apart here -- she does better when the people around her are emotionally strong, even though her behaviors seem to make it hard for them to be that way.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Americansplendor,  In my view, your GF is exhibiting typical BPD behavior.  They fear abandonment, yet will push you away.  They want love, but will behave in unloving fashion.  They seek stability, yet will provoke turbulent interactions.  It's a paradox, my friend.  You're seeing the red flags,  .  The question is whether you will elect to ignore them, as many of us have done.  The ball is in your court, so-to-speak.

LuckyJim

[Americansplendor]

Warmth and closeness are likely to make her more avoidant. She may be feeling your feelings intensify, and is pulling away to try and regulate any attachment on her part.

Thank you guys, I understand it a little bit more. One thing for sure is that yes, she's impulsive.

If don't hear anything from her today,should I contact her tomorrow night and see if she wants to see me? Or should I just wait until she's the one initiating contact?

[flourdust]

Warmth and closeness are likely to make her more avoidant. She may be feeling your feelings intensify, and is pulling away to try and regulate any attachment on her part.

Thank you guys, I understand it a little bit more. One thing for sure is that yes, she's impulsive.

If don't hear anything from her today,should I contact her tomorrow night and see if she wants to see me? Or should I just wait until she's the one initiating contact?

What about the advice you've received made you think we were telling you that you can make this relationship work?

[Fr4nz]

Warmth and closeness are likely to make her more avoidant. She may be feeling your feelings intensify, and is pulling away to try and regulate any attachment on her part.

Thank you guys, I understand it a little bit more. One thing for sure is that yes, she's impulsive.

If don't hear anything from her today,should I contact her tomorrow night and see if she wants to see me? Or should I just wait until she's the one initiating contact?

Give her some space. Let her take the initiative. There's nothing much else you can do.

Anyway, as others said, she was very upfront with you by saying that she's BPD and she doesn't want a serious relationship. Very upfront! It is like a "gift", in the sense that she literally warned you about the "perils" (let's say so... .) of dating her.

So, the context is actually very clear my friend... .now it's your turn to understand that transforming the relationship with her to something serious and viable is 99% impossible (you'll end up hurt) AND... .move on towards healthier relationships.

As a side-note, it is well-known that BPDs do not improve over time if they don't enter therapy -- on the contrary, they may get worse; as such, the possibilities to make this relationship work are, basically, equal to 0.

[Americansplendor]

What about the advice you've received made you think we were telling you that you can make this relationship work?

Look, I understand that she'll never be my girlfriend and I'm fine with that.
However, I can't see what's wrong in wanting to keep hanging out like we used to. It's not like I text her constantly to tell her I love and miss her.

I will give her space and wait until she contacts me. In the meantime, I will carry on with my life and hope the stress and knots in my stomach disappear.

I will keep you posted. I really appreciate all the feedback.

[Fr4nz]

What about the advice you've received made you think we were telling you that you can make this relationship work?

Look, I understand that she'll never be my girlfriend and I'm fine with that.
However, I can't see what's wrong in wanting to keep hanging out like we used to.

American, there's nothing wrong with it... .among healthy people this usually works.

HOWEVER, having an FWB-relationship, or even a simple friendship, with a BPD is usually impossible, since they're tumultuous in friendships like they are in romantic relationships. Most likely, you will be subjected to her BPD traits, such as push/pull, fears of abandonment/engulfement, inability to manage her anger, drama, fights, etc.

Do you really want this?
I mean, perhaps it is even possible to manage her, however this would require emotional detachment from your side. Otherwise, I see huge pain in your immediate future... .

[livednlearned]

What about the advice you've received made you think we were telling you that you can make this relationship work?

Look, I understand that she'll never be my girlfriend and I'm fine with that.
However, I can't see what's wrong in wanting to keep hanging out like we used to. It's not like I text her constantly to tell her I love and miss her.

I will give her space and wait until she contacts me. In the meantime, I will carry on with my life and hope the stress and knots in my stomach disappear.

I will keep you posted. I really appreciate all the feedback.

Honestly, the more people in her life who understand BPD and care about her, the better for her. The tricky part is to make sure you understand what it means to be an emotional leader so you aren't emotionally injured by her coping mechanisms.

A lot of people come here wanting the BPD person to change. What works best is to change our own behavior if we want to see change in the relationship. The change that needs to happen is often counter-intuitive to what we might do in ordinary relationships, and that is not easy for a lot of people. We like things easy  

There are different ways to give a person space. You can give her physical space (no contact). You can also give her emotional space. This means contact without trying to foster attachment. It might mean connecting with her around common interests, staying focused on the present moment, and not trying to push for something more. You're hurting right now, tho. Is that something you feel strong enough to do at the moment?

There is a book called Buddha and the Borderline that describes one person's experience of BPD, including her romantic relationships. It may help you see one BPD person's view of the challenges they face in relationships. It also helps you understand how important it is for them to have good people who care about them in their lives.

[Americansplendor]

There are different ways to give a person space. You can give her physical space (no contact). You can also give her emotional space. This means contact without trying to foster attachment. It might mean connecting with her around common interests, staying focused on the present moment, and not trying to push for something more. You're hurting right now, tho. Is that something you feel strong enough to do at the moment?

I'm someone who like to plan in advance. My therapist told me I had control issues, so it's really hard for me to live in the moment. I'm always thinking ahead. Hence me trying to schedule what I should do this week with her.

Here's what I have in mind:
1) Physical space until Saturday if I don't hear from her beforehand.
2) Comes Saturday: Emotional space, maybe send her an article or some music she would like and maybe ask about her week.

 My main stress right now is that we don't have anything planned and we usually do.

[livednlearned]

Well you're in good company here. 

Lots of control issues going on among people here, too.

People with BPD are extremely hypersensitive. To body language, facial expressions, tone of voice.

Is it possible that she has sensed you are controlling?

This might explain why she is displaying avoidant behaviors, to protect herself from what she senses might be engulfment on your part.

Sometimes, too, our control issues gets tripped when we come into contact with the most uncontrollable thing of all: someone else.

Having this self-awareness is really great on your part, Americansplendor. It will go a long way, especially if you can learn ways to curb it in the face of her erratic behavior.

What would you have done next week if she wasn't in your life? Can you do that instead? The plan to share music she likes, etc. is a good one. And then sit back and see if she initiates something.

If she has recently been dx'd BPD, and is accepting the dx to the point she shares it with you, keep in mind too that she may go through some shame-prone reactions to sharing her dx with others. It maybe felt like the right thing to do, then she has an experience where she feels stigmatized, which makes her feel shame, so she retreats or acts out. If you are susceptible to be emotionally injured, now is a good time to line up lots of appointments with your T and focus on things that make you feel centered.

Needing her to reassure you will almost certainly push her away. 

[Americansplendor]

Well you're in good company here.  

Is it possible that she has sensed you are controlling?

This might explain why she is displaying avoidant behaviors, to protect herself from what she senses might be engulfment on your part.


What would you have done next week if she wasn't in your life? Can you do that instead? The plan to share music she likes, etc. is a good one. And then sit back and see if she initiates something.

If she has recently been dx'd BPD, and is accepting the dx to the point she shares it with you, keep in mind too that she may go through some shame-prone reactions to sharing her dx with others. It maybe felt like the right thing to do, then she has an experience where she feels stigmatized, which makes her feel shame, so she retreats or acts out. If you are susceptible to be emotionally injured, now is a good time to line up lots of appointments with your T and focus on things that make you feel centered.

Needing her to reassure you will almost certainly push her away.  

Thanks livednlearned,

She was diagnosed 5 years ago.

One thing for sure is that I'm not trying to control her. I respect her space and don't act jealous or text her to know where she is.

This week I will concentrate on myself (gym, friends, arts and even try going on dates with other people). I also reached out to my therapist and I'm waiting for an appointment. However the constant stress in my stomach is really annoying.

[livednlearned]

the constant stress in my stomach is really annoying.

I understand. Longing for someone who is not making themselves available (or makes themselves sort of available), is very stressful.

It activates our attachment systems and when we can't complete the attachment, our protest behaviors get triggered if the person we want is only inconsistently there for us.

[Confused2much]

It genuinely amazes me reading these topics.

Americansplendor, you could be me typing. Its literally identical in so many ways and and reaffirms the existence of this condition for me. I used to be sceptical. My ex was diagnosed as a schizotypal but has pretty much every single trait from the BPD criteria as well. They are closely related.

[Americansplendor]

It genuinely amazes me reading these topics.

Americansplendor, you could be me typing. Its literally identical in so many ways and and reaffirms the existence of this condition for me. I used to be sceptical. My ex was diagnosed as a schizotypal but has pretty much every single trait from the BPD criteria as well. They are closely related.

What do you think of the contact approach I have planned for this week? To be honest I'm afraid I won't be able to wait until Saturday to contact her.

[Lucky Jim]

Longing for someone who is not making themselves available (or makes themselves sort of available), is very stressful. It activates our attachment systems and when we can't complete the attachment, our protest behaviors get triggered if the person we want is only inconsistently there for us.

Nicely put, LnL.  It gets back to the push/pull dynamic of a BPD r/s, in my view.  On one hand, the pwBPD wants the attachment; on the other hand, the pwBPD doesn't want it, so there's a constant see-sawing of emotions that is stressful for the Non.  You could say that the pwBPD is only partially there, emotionally.

No wonder, Americansplendor, that your stomach is tied up in knots!

LuckyJim

[livednlearned]

To be honest I'm afraid I won't be able to wait until Saturday to contact her.

She may eventually experience this as neediness and clinginess, even if you feel you have masked it well. Her perceptions of emotions are extremely hypersensitive as someone who is BPD.

If so, it could cause her to push you away even more.

And it begs the question (for all of us) what is going on when we pursue someone who is not fully available?

It can take a lot of digging to uncover what that is about.

[Confused2much]

Care to elaborate LnL?

I think you're suggesting that a sustained longing to be with someone who is rejecting you is a sign that there are issues within the person doing the chasing?

What's it usually a sign of? I've been there. I've done it. I've embarrassed myself during that process and when I step back and think "why am I doing this" I usually just believe it's a combination of insecurity and love for the happy memories.

What bugs me is the way the happy memories seem to take presidence inside my brain. This person is abusing me, betraying me and tormenting me yet all I see when I think of her is her beautiful smile, her laugh and the good times? Why? What's going on inside me?

It's killing me.

[livednlearned]

It may be different for you. For me, the only thing that made sense (more so than codependence explanations) is understanding attachment styles in romantic relationships.

An excerpt:

People vary greatly in their need for intimacy and closeness, and these differences can create clashes. Attachment theory offers us a way to look at romantic relationships.

It seems that an entire mosaic of factors comes together to create our attachment patterns: our early connection with our parents, our genes, and also something else -- our romantic experiences as adults. On average, about 70 to 75 percent of adults remain consistently in the same attachment category at different points in their lives, while the remaining 25 to 30 percent of the population report a change in their attachment style.

Researchers attribute this change to romantic relationships in adulthood that are so powerful that they actually revise our most basic beliefs and attitudes toward connectedness. And yes, that change can happen in both directions -- secure people can become less secure and people who were originally insecure can become increasingly secure. If you are insecure, this piece of information is vital and could be your ticket to happiness in finding relationships.

John Bowlby claimed that attachment is an integral part of human behavior throughout the entire lifespan. He understood that our need for someone to share our lives with is part of our genetic makeup and has nothing to do with how much we love ourselves or how fulfilled we feel on our own. He discovered that once we choose someone special, powerful and often uncontrollable forces come into play. New patterns of behavior kick in regardless of how independent we are and despite our conscious wills. Once we choose a partner, there is no question about whether dependency exists or not. It always does. An elegant coexistence that does not include uncomfortable feelings of vulnerability and fear of loss sounds good but is not our biology. What proved through evolution to have a strong survival advantage is a human couple becoming one physiological unit, which means that if she’s reacting, then I’m reacting, or if he’s upset, that also makes me unsettled. He or she is a part of me, and I will do anything to save him or her; having such a vested interest in the well-being of another person translates into a very important survival advantage for both parties.

The attachment styles discussed in the book (anxious, avoidant, secure) describe people who are non-BPD. For people who are BPD, their attachment style is sometimes referred to as disorganized, tho that type is not addressed in the book. 

[Confused2much]

Its strange because before I met my ex-BPD I'd say I was secure. I introduced her to my family early, I was relaxed, comfortable and open. I'm a reasonable person but over the course of the last few years I'd say I've ended up more anxious. The experience I've had with her has, hopefully only temporarily, changed me.

I think I'm on the mend now. The sand storm is calming down and I can see a way ahead.

[Confused2much]

It genuinely amazes me reading these topics.

Americansplendor, you could be me typing. Its literally identical in so many ways and and reaffirms the existence of this condition for me. I used to be sceptical. My ex was diagnosed as a schizotypal but has pretty much every single trait from the BPD criteria as well. They are closely related.

What do you think of the contact approach I have planned for this week? To be honest I'm afraid I won't be able to wait until Saturday to contact her.

I've been in this stand off 100 times and I always crack and make the move. I've never done anything different. I'd call her and she'd say "I really wanted to call you but I had to stop myself". I'd ask why and she'd say "I didn't think you'd want to hear from me". So infuriating because you're being programmed to always chase her.

I'd say try and hold out and give her a chance to make the move.

[Americansplendor]

I've been in this stand off 100 times and I always crack and make the move. I've never done anything different. I'd call her and she'd say "I really wanted to call you but I had to stop myself". I'd ask why and she'd say "I didn't think you'd want to hear from me". So infuriating because you're being programmed to always chase her.

I'd say try and hold out and give her a chance to make the move.

So it's Wednesday morning and I haven't heard from her since Sunday. It's really weird and I feel sick, I'm obviously going through withdrawal.

I see her online on FB and really want to send her something (article, video, etc... .) but then stop myself. Until Saturday I repeat myself... .but the thing is that we've never been apart that long.

I really wonder if she's thinking about me at all.

[Lucky Jim]

And it begs the question (for all of us) what is going on when we pursue someone who is not fully available?

It can take a lot of digging to uncover what that is about.

Great question, LnL.  Perhaps the corollary is: why do we stay in a r/s w/someone who is abusive?  LJ

[Americansplendor]

After long talks with friends and family, I decided that I will text her today to see if she wants to hang out.

After all, what's the point of torturing myself for a girl who clearly doesn't want a relationship. Waiting for her to come to me won't change that fact.

So I'm going to play it cool and casual, just like we are supposed to be.

[Confused2much]

After long talks with friends and family, I decided that I will text her today to see if she wants to hang out.

After all, what's the point of torturing myself for a girl who clearly doesn't want a relationship. Waiting for her to come to me won't change that fact.

So I'm going to play it cool and casual, just like we are supposed to be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VygKQV-hEpY

[Americansplendor]

Well thank you for all of your feedback and advices.

I texted her saying I wanted to see her tonight.

She replied right away saying that she couldn't because she had other plans and that this week was hell (she started a new job).

I texted her that I understood and that if she finds the time, to let me know.

No reply.

----
Obviously I'm no dummy and understand that she doesn't care.

At least now, I kind of know where I stand and my anxious feelings are slowly decreasing.

I will keep you posted if anything happens.

I'm truly grateful of the support you guys gave me, even though I didn't follow your advice.

[Fr4nz]

Well thank you for all of your feedback and advices.

I texted her saying I wanted to see her tonight.

She replied right away saying that she couldn't because she had other plans and that this week was hell (she started a new job).

I texted her that I understood and that if she finds the time, to let me know.

No reply.

----
Obviously I'm no dummy and understand that she doesn't care.

At least now, I kind of know where I stand and my anxious feelings are slowly decreasing.

I will keep you posted if anything happens.

I'm truly grateful of the support you guys gave me, even though I didn't follow your advice.

Sometimes, we must end up hitting our head on a wall to truly learn the lesson... .
Don't worry, happens to everyone... .at least, now you know the truly grim prospects of having a relationship with her!

[Americansplendor]

Sometimes, we must end up hitting our head on a wall to truly learn the lesson... .
Don't worry, happens to everyone... .at least, now you know the truly grim prospects of having a relationship with her!

Indeed, but I don't believe what I did was wrong. I knew it was her only day off this week and I gave it a try.

Now, I'm feeling a little bit better.

The lesson I've learned is to date girls who are closer to my age and who don't suffer from BPD.

[Americansplendor]

Hi everybody.

So it has been a rough week emotionally speaking. A real rollercoater with ups and downs.

The worst is that I felt a little bit better last night but the anxiety came back this morning. I'm seeing my shrink tonight, hope it helps.

Now, I'm totally aware that I'm being ''ghosted''. However, I feel that I need some kind of closure for my own sanity.

I was wondering if I should maybe wait another week and write her to get some kind of closure.

[Americansplendor]

So it's finally over. I got a message from her last night, right after seeing the shrink.

However, I did tell her that it was obvious there was no relationship and that it was doomed from the start since our personalities are too different, hers being self-destructive. I told her I was worried about her and wish she would seek help.

She was like, no worry, everything's good... .
 

Now she wants to know when she can bring me back some of my stuff. Well, I'm not going to reply to that because I know that seeing her wouldn't do me any good.

Gotta stay strong.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[wheretostart0]

this reminds me so much of what I went through with my BPD ex... it was a weird dating / fwb thing with her.

I was exactly where you are at last December... .
I had a lil needy moment and she knew she had me.

You need to pull back HARD... .don't ask her to see you when she contacts you. Act indifferent. Wait for her to ask you to see her and say your busy at least once. Pull back man.

I literally had sex with mine only one more time after that meltdown and she lost attraction and used me as an emotional backup for the next 5 months. Then I lost it on her again and she cut dumped me from our unofficial thing we had. You must stay in control and be unaffected by all of her actions. Be strong brotha.

[Americansplendor]

I'm seeing her tomorrow night after a month, she's coming to give me my stuff back.

My plan is to keep it really short and act polite.

Obviously, I would love to have ''break-up sex'', but know deep down that would be a disaster.

Gotta stay strong.

[BowlOfPetunias]

"Look, I understand that she'll never be my girlfriend and I'm fine with that.
However, I can't see what's wrong in wanting to keep hanging out like we used to."

There is plenty wrong with that approach.   She told you she does not want a relationship.  You need to add "at the moment" to that in your mind.  BPDs can get very attached and they can also change their minds/emotions very, very quickly.  Just because she does not want to be your girlfriend now does not mean she won't be convinced that you are getting married and having kids a little down the road.  While that might not sound like a problem now, you may not to marry her and have kids after you have had a full taste of her BPD behaviors.  In that case, you will most definitely be the bad guy who led her on and then abandoned her.  She may lso deny ever having told you that it wasn't going to be serious.  

Generally, it is a good idea to add "at the moment" or "right now" to ANYTHING a BPD says about his or her feelings.

[Americansplendor]

No I don't think that would've worked.

She told me clearly: I'll never love you cause you're too easy.

Whatever, I don't want to waste my time playing games. I'm 29 years old, she's 21.

[BowlOfPetunias]

I did not write that something "would have worked."  I am not encouraging you to continue to see her in hopes of having a long term relationship.  I indicated that remaining involved with her could lead to delusions on her part that would be a train wreck.  The best way to avoid such a disaster would be to disengage in order to decrease the likelihood that you would become the target of such delusions.

Stay friends?  Maybe.  Keep dating/having sex with?  Very bad idea.

"She told me clearly: I'll never love you cause you're too easy."

By the way, it is quite common for BPDs to assume that anyone who would love them must be worthless because they devalue themselves so much.  How could any good person love someone like them? 

[Americansplendor]

My plan is to politely give her back her stuff tomorrow night and then never look back.

I really don't want to engage in any chit chat. She's the worst and I don't want to get hurt anymore.