A moment where I think "she got it"...

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Perhaps we are talking about two different things.

Cussing me and saying please are two different things.

Plenty of times she has asked for money, yet not said please or whatever... .and it's been funded.


For clarity... .if she cusses me for a "family expense"... .are you guys really saying that should result in her getting that.

I don't think I would hand over money, but if there was "true need"... .I wouldn't let people go hungry or be stranded.

The "vast majority" of family expenses are paid by me... .as in my money and I actually pay them... fill up vans, buy groceries and all that.

She prefers it that way... .her choice.  So... .80 to 90% of groceries are bought by me. 

I get it she may resent this... .for clarity... .I'm ok with that.  Not that I promote it, but if her cussing me and my reasonable, logical, rational responses to that result in resentment... .I don't see it my role to "save her" from those feelings.

Perhaps she examines her role in it... .perhaps she doesn't.  I'm not involved in that.



FF

[formflier]

Perhaps we are talking about two different things.

Cussing me and saying please are two different things.

Plenty of times she has asked for money, yet not said please or whatever... .and it's been funded.


For clarity... .if she cusses me for a "family expense"... .are you guys really saying that should result in her getting that.

I don't think I would hand over money, but if there was "true need"... .I wouldn't let people go hungry or be stranded.

The "vast majority" of family expenses are paid by me... .as in my money and I actually pay them... fill up vans, buy groceries and all that.

She prefers it that way... .her choice.  So... .80 to 90% of groceries are bought by me. 

I get it she may resent this... .for clarity... .I'm ok with that.  Not that I promote it, but if her cussing me and my reasonable, logical, rational responses to that result in resentment... .I don't see it my role to "save her" from those feelings.

Perhaps she examines her role in it... .perhaps she doesn't.  I'm not involved in that.



FF

[Cat Familiar]

I may not be remembering correctly, but I seem to recall there was only one "cussing incident" and that hasn't been part of her regular behavior for some time.

It seems that a good option at that point would be to immediately address that behavior--"You're upset and it really hurts my feelings to be talked to that way." Maybe if you could have heard and understood the underlying feelings behind the cussing, then you could have addressed them.

But at this point, it's likely to be an unknown and it seems no good would come from addressing it now.

Given that pwBPD can be volatile, it might have been a series of minor frustrations that built up in her day and she let loose on you, the nearest target. Or perhaps she was feeling a lot of resentment at having to ask you for money for necessary expenses for the family. We'll never know what caused her to let loose with those words and I think looking at overall patterns is a better use of time than dissecting why it happened in that context. She is improving on that measure, if I remember correctly.

And to loop back to your general point, that it doesn't matter if it's about money, sex, food, whatever--yes, it's important to be treated with dignity and respect and not tolerate abusive behavior.

[Fian]

We have already covered this in the other thread.  At this point, I would just be repeating the same arguments over again, so I am going to stop here.

[formflier]

The cussing thing kinda came to a head.  Several cussing incidents (very out of character by the way) were not aimed at me.  One or a few seemed to be aimed at S15.  Each seemed to be worse.  Since they weren't aimed at me... .I made some attempts to listen, validate... .etc etc.

She did try to apologize/tell me she was sorry so I can't ever mention it again a couple times and got several of the incidents confused.

Then... .there was the "effe you"... .right to my face as I was trying to be helpful and even begin to understand what the issue was.
 
We had a discussion about money... .made agreement... that was done.  She later wanted to add to it, but couldn't get in touch with me... .I was working on a sore back.  She gets home as I am drying off... and starts in on me. 

I tried to ignore it and be helpful  figure things out and I was honestly trying to understand what the head of steam was about... .she said she TOLD me via text or email to put money in and in response I asked if I had responded to the text (I had responded to several things earlier in the day... .was trying to confirm if it was one of those... or something I was unaware of).

Rather than answering my question there was a thunderous "effe you" right to my face... .turned and stormed out... firmly shutting door.  I finished drying off... got my phone... .and kinda figured out what happened.

Then went on about my day...

FF

[formflier]

I'll never know if some other tool would have "nipped it sooner" or fixed it easier had I used it before or instead of the boundary/ignoring it going on about my day.

However... there is a pattern here that tends to tell me ignoring and moving on (behind my castle walls) stops the cussing at me.  (I get it her volcano of resentment could be about to blow)

There had been some similar odd things said/light cussing around prayer time and religious time together.  I tried to validate/not take bait or use a tool other than a boundary.  Things kept building

Finally... .one day I was asking her forgiveness for a minor matter that I wasn't sure if it was "sinful" or not.  My "policy" was that "if there is a doubt, there is no doubt" and you should ask.  So... I didn't.

She laughed, used the Lord's name in vain and created a crazy story about why I was asking forgiveness.  That I wanted to be forgiven for taking my family to lunch?

I was shocked... .I confronted her Biblically about what I just heard... asking if she really intended to say what I believed I heard her say.  Several times she denied laughing and wouldn't address use of Lord's name in vain or the story in any way shape or form.

I haven't asked her forgiveness for any matter since.  Sadly... I doubt I ever will again unless she changes her ways about that.

However... .far less "religious" stuff between us... .far less cussing... .no more Lords name in vain... .life is relatively more stable... with "less religious stuff".

Isn't that weird?  However... it's undeniable.

There have been a few other random things that I never understood where she would cuss for a bit... and then it would go away.

By and large, my wife doesn't use profanity.

Really odd.

FF

[Enabler]

Morning FF,

I feel like I'm telling you how to suck eggs with what I am going to say below, but this is how I see your wife:

There are 2 very defined people inside your wife, with some kind of trigger (could be stress, could be when she gets a defensive urge, could be a bunch of different things).

Non-triggered wife - has her life together, makes pretty good choices, has serious religious values that she aspires to live by, doesn't swear. When she has control she can keep all the bits of her adult persona glued together. He adult persona is like a base Mrs Potato Head, but with a bunch of things she likes the idea of stuck to her, things that make her what she wants to be. We all do this. One thing might be a filter that she has over her mouth which stops her swearing, another might be a bunch of rules that she can guide herself with regards to spending money... .But my point is that none of these things are integral to her being. These things are stuck on, loosely in some cases, maybe in an attempt to cover up the base Mrs Potato Head... .to cover up her FOO roots. So, when she is shaken, the bits she has stuck on come flying off revealing the base doll.

Triggered - Dysregulated - Inner child - Base Mrs Potato Head... ."You can take the girl out of X, but you can't take X out of the girl". When shaken, your W reverts to type. All the bits come flying off, all the bits that she's added to cover up the girl who came from a pretty f'd up FOO. The filter she has on her mouth comes off, the restraints she puts on herself are ripped off and the rules she has to avoid impulsive spending are dropped. None of these things were ever integral to her make up, they were loosely stuck on to make her into the person she aspired to be rather than the person she was. You and I learnt these things growing up, they are integral to us. Your naval training embeds these things into your genetic make up. When your plane came under fire and you were shaken... .NOTHING COMES OFF. My mother has never in her entire life said a swear word... .never... .not once... .ever. It doesn't matter how much shake her, she will never ever swear, it's integral to her absolute core. She will also never lie.

The disconnect between who your wife is at her core 'Mrs Potato Head' and her perception of what she is (or wants to be) Mrs Potato Head with all things stuck to her, is huge... .and likely getting bigger and bigger. I wonder whether or not you are somehow telling her, or showing her that she can never be 'Mrs Potato Head with all things stuck to her' or the person she wants to be, and telling her that she will always just be Mrs Potato Head... .or maybe that's what she keeps telling herself every time she fails to maintain the full complete model of who she wants to be and reverts to type.

At what point does she stop trying to stick the bits back on?

 

[BasementDweller]

Hi, FF -

May I ask why there is so much emphasis on "cussing"? I am not in any way trying to sound cavalier, but I am asking your view point on why this is so important vs. any other negative or harsh things your wife might say.

pwBPD say all manner of inappropriate things, as it is in their nature to react emotionally, and blurt out whatever is on their mind with no filter, at least some of the time.

When my ex was at his worst, I heard any of the following at any given time:

I hate you!
You're a horrible person!
I hope you die a slow painful death!
F*ck you!
You're a b*tch!
Don't touch me!
I don't want to speak to you!
I regret ever meeting you!

And bla, bla, bla... .

It was all meant for shock value, and it was only the angry words of a wounded inner toddler who wanted me to hurt as much as he did. Truth be known, the "I hate you" was far worse than the "F*ck you"... .but it was all the dysregulated ranting of a mentally ill person, and all insults were kind of... .of equal value.

There is a tendency with some to put more emphasis on certain words that are deemed "dirty" and that's a social construct. This is something that people know, and they will often deliberately use these combinations of letters to shock others, when in fact - they are just that. Combinations of letters that have been assigned a certain value... .but they pack no more punch than any other letter combos. (Besides "BPD" maybe.)  Swear words are just words. The inherent "value" lies in the reactions to them, not the words themselves.

One can even look at how the same word loses its sting, when applied in certain situations:

"You are a piece of sh!t!"
"Holy sh!t, it's great to see you!"

"F*ck off!"
"F*ck, that's fantastic!"

On that note, we all know what "slut" means in English, and the connotation it holds.

In Swedish, "slut" means "The End". Same letters, entirely different meaning.

Is it really the actual cuss words that are the problem, or her being disrespectful in general? And why are cuss words worse than any other insults? Again, I'm genuinely curious, because I am aware some people are sensitive about certain "swear words", but "f*ck you" is merely a general, albeit not so nice expression of annoyance. It can't really do any harm. There are far crueler things than can be said with far cleaner language. Is it possible that if you stopped responding with shock and awe to the words coming out of her mouth, the temptation to use them might subside for her? If you feel disrespected, of course that is valid... .but focusing on her swearing (instead of the intent behind it) might be the big red button that she will keep pushing if she knows it gets a reaction from you.

[formflier]

I'm retired Navy... .the phrase "cuss like I Sailor" is a phrase because... .

I swear I have seen equipment get fixed from being cussed at and kicked.  Wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it.

That being said, in my home to hear cussing or other derogatory words "aimed" at someone (including me) is not something I'm ok with... .BPD or not.

So, to answer your question it's not the word itself, it's how the words used.  While I'm not a fan of the use in general of cussing "I'm so effin messed up I can' think" is very different than "You are effin worthless"

Hope that helps shine light on my reasoning.

FF

[BasementDweller]

Hi, FF - 

Yes, that does help, thank you. I just wanted a better understanding of what it was that was bothering you - the words themselves (maybe sort of) or the intent to disrespect. (Mostly, it sounds like.)

I tend to cuss like a sailor myself (despite being a delicate lady)   and my BPD ex loved it except for cringing when I said mother f*cker.   Due to his own horrible past with his BPD mom, it was a trigger. ;-)

However, one of the most scathing phrases I have ever heard, devoid of any recognized profanity, is when a little old southern lady looks at you with *that look* and says "Bless your heart."

Then you know you're in the dog house! 

[Notwendy]

I agree with FF.  I think it has to do with boundaries. I also think that when someone cusses a lot, it reflects poorly on them. Letting one fly if you are stuck in traffic is different to me than cussing at a person. A cuss word in adult company is different than using one in front of children, or at work. Cussing while demanding something from me isn't likely to get me to comply.

Context also determines when and where. As a mom, I am around children a lot- and I wouldn't use certain vocabulary then. A single person in adult company may use the words more frequently.

[BasementDweller]

I agree with FF.  I think it has to do with boundaries. I also think that when someone cusses a lot, it reflects poorly on them. Letting one fly if you are stuck in traffic is different to me than cussing at a person. A cuss word in adult company is different than using one in front of children, or at work. Cussing while demanding something from me isn't likely to get me to comply.

I hear you, NW. I grew up in a household where profanity was the norm, but not in a classless way. (If you can imagine such a thing.  ) My parents are both highly educated professionals and profanity was normally used as humorous, colorful emphasis in our household. As kids, we weren't reprimanded for swearing and as a result... .we usually didn't except in private situations, usually humorously. Let's just say - our ribald vocabularies were pretty much used when appropriate. I guess in that way, we are all a little desensitized to those words, and don't flinch with even the saltiest language. Many of us worked in hospitals as well, which lends a whole new twist. Now I work for the government. So F-bombs are our "business language". To each their own, of course.

In the case of FF's wife, if she knows it triggers him (swearing) she may do it more. Maybe just not responding to the cussing might have it lose its appeal for her. Of course, that doesn't mean to be ok with disrespect... .but maybe don't differentiate between the words, and focus on the intent instead. hard to say, as each case is different and we all must handle things in a way that works for us.

I tend to respond better to demands when people swear at me. Otherwise I might think they don't really mean it. ;-)

[Notwendy]

FF- do you think the farm equipment was a trigger for the increased spending?

Initially my H and I both had modest salaries. If either of us did some "crazy" spending it was limited by the fact that we didn't have much to spend. Then as my H began to earn more- suddenly some large purchases happened on his part without any discussion. This was a shift in the original agreement that I thought we had but when I think back, it may be that he couldn't buy these things before that actually was the boundary. I might indulge in a new dress or something impulsive at Target, but I would never have bought something major without a discussion with my H. My H on the other hand felt no need to discuss the purchases with me.

I did try to point out to my H- how would you feel if I just did that without talking to you first, but I didn't act on it.

Do you think MrsFF might have thought- well if he can buy a new truck, I can give $1500 to my family?

[formflier]

For me, I try to avoid using cuss words.  I've got a bazillion kids and those little ears are around when you don't think they are.

Plus... .once I understood how erratic and unreasonable BPD is, that got me to thinking about the example I set for my kids.

My wife generally agrees with me on this, and hope I haven't given a wrong impression... .because she doesn't usually say cuss words.  When that happens it's an indication that "something is up".

When those words get "aimed" at someone, it's kinda  a taking it to the next level.

Regarding giving my wife attention.  I suspect there is frustration on her part that her outbursts aren't getting attention.  So she has been cycling through some new or underused tools.

Last thing I want to do is give her attention (or money)... .when she is being disrespectful.

Note... ."bless your heart"... ."bless his heart"... .etc etc is one of my favorite phrases.  I don't use it often, but sometimes it just seems appropriate...

FF

[BasementDweller]

My wife generally agrees with me on this, and hope I haven't given a wrong impression... .because she doesn't usually say cuss words.  When that happens it's an indication that "something is up".

When those words get "aimed" at someone, it's kinda  a taking it to the next level.

Regarding giving my wife attention.  I suspect there is frustration on her part that her outbursts aren't getting attention.  So she has been cycling through some new or underused tools.

Ah, ok, now I get it. If it seems really out of the ordinary for her, then yes, she's likely "kicking it up a notch" as they say.

Note... ."bless your heart"... ."bless his heart"... .etc etc is one of my favorite phrases.  I don't use it often, but sometimes it just seems appropriate...

FF

In many ways, this can hit harder than an F-bomb. That withering look you may get as the phrase is delivered with that gentle Southern drawl... .no profanity required!

[Notwendy]

I agree with you Basement Dweller- the reaction to the cuss word may fuel it. I recall when I said one ( I heard from a neighbor kid ) at home and my parents jumped. I didn't even know the meaning of the word but I saw the reaction.  Although I grew up with dysfunction and a lot of inappropriate behavior (BPD mom) there wasn't a lot of cursing in my house and this may have been a generational thing. There is more cursing in popular songs, TV, movies, than there was in their generation or environment.

[formflier]

FF- do you think the farm equipment was a trigger for the increased spending?
 

To adjust the timeline, ALL the whacky spending was after the farm.

Over my life and marriage, my net worth has fluctuated (how's that for being polite), although over the long term the trend has thankfully been up.

So... we could afford it while living on the farm.

In my letter I talking about the farm washing away things away... I mentioned a "fortune".

I never had the heart to calculate it all, but somewhere in the range of 1/4 million.  Ouch.

Essentially the state bought back a lot of properties that had been flooded.  It was a short sale (everbody took a haircut)... we walked away with no cash from sale.

Basically... no negotiating, state said here is what we will give for this property if you and banks get onboard.

Anyway... we move to another state and I become a public figure.  I did a small real estate deal that brought in just over $30k.  

My wife was onboard with the plan.  We would use that money to do some things in real estate and start building back up.

At the time the market was down, so selling other properties wasn't a good idea, since we would have lost money.  I was "house rich" and "cash poor"... .but money was coming in for normal household monthly expenses.

So... when she took the $30k... .she cleaned things out.  No "real estate moves", monthly money was really tight (no cushion for household stuff).

If there had been $50k... .my guess is she would have cleaned it out too.

Literally... .I was left not being able to use an ATM to get money.  

Anyway... ."BPD" had returned with a vengeance for about 6 to 9 months and I had been using tools for several months having recently read SWOE and found this site.

Hope that puts it in context.

Circling back around.  When we had plenty of money, she seemed to want to be even more careful about it and build more (when on the farm).  She has a very good head on her shoulders for money... when things are calm.

FF

[formflier]

For clarity... I didn't "jump"

I've generally "withdrawn" my relationship.  No money... .no discussion, I'll go do something else. 

It's not a stomp off thing... .I just don't "honor" the cuss words with "more of me".

For instance, her using Lord's name in vain... I stopped asking her forgiveness... we don't do religious stuff in private anymore.   

Vice a big reaction...

FF

[Notwendy]

Religion is a big part of who you are. I can understand this is a loss for you. However, I also think that your private religious discussions ( the ones you posted here) didn't promote reverence or resolution. I know this is a personal loss for you to not share as much religion between the two of you, but it also may be better to not have these discussions.

I know this feels like a loss of the companionship the two of you once had. On a positive side- the two of you have managed to do a lot of things well- raising the kids, and also your wife is quite functional compared to some other pwBPD. Functioning in the workplace doesn't mean that it is any easier to maintain composure at home, but it is a plus to your family and to her that she is competent at her job and also able to be a mother to the children.

I have observed that transitions and stresses bring out BPD behaviors and calmer times seem to be better. I observed this with my parents. Events like moving, kids leaving for college, changes in finances would be stressful for any family, but even more so for a person with BPD.  You have a wedding coming up. This is a major joy and also a stressful time- including an additional expense. I wonder if this is a factor for some of your wife's behaviors.

[Red5]

Cussing... .

Being a Marine, well that’s how we communicated... .and fixed things like FF wrote above,

Would I ever utter one bad word around Granny... .oh’ h3ll no!

But Grampa would use a few colorful words as we worked out in the sawmill, .but NEVER around Granny, or she would get her “switch” and wear your arse out good !

I cuss now at work... .but alas even in retirement I still work around Marines; both active, former and retired... .

At home... .yeah sad to say I do cuss sometimes... .I guess it’s kind of like a gorilla beating his chest over something... .

I consider to this day that using bad language is a “vice” same as smoking cigarettes or drinking beer on Sunday after Church... .

What would my beloved Grandmother say today about her fifty two year old grandson using foul language around the young Marines on Cherry Point... .I bet she would say, “well bless his heart he surely knows better than that”... .

I sure do miss my Granny and Grampa 

I loved them very very much !

Thank God for them, and their influence in my early life !

P.S.
To this day, I still remember the taste of soap in my mouth, and the sting of that “switch” on my little red caboose !

Y’all have a nice day !

Red5

[BasementDweller]

Cussing... .

Being a Marine, well that’s how we communicated ... .and fixed things like FF wrote above,

Would I ever utter one bad word around Granny... .oh’ h3ll no!

But Grampa would use a few colorful words as we worked out in the sawmill, ... .but NEVER around Granny, or she would get her “switch” and wear your arse out good !


Red5

Hahahaha! That's a fantastic story!   Contrast that with my mom, now 75, (and grandmother to countless) who recently traveled from California to Boston to visit my brother. This woman has a morbid fear of flying, and was once eh... ."forcibly deplaned" in Denver for having a screaming panic attack in flight, and ripping the armrest off the seat while bellowing profanities and doomsday scenarios about "this whole bird going down in flames".    

When I asked her how the hell she made this flight with her ... ."history", she responded. "Oh, now the doctor gives me Xanax, and guess what, it makes you not give a FLYING F*CK! GET IT? FLYING F*CK!" And then proceeded to cackle at her own joke for a good 10 minutes.

To see my mom in a professional setting, you'd think her a saintly angel of mercy.

HA. HA. HAH! Her family knows better.  

(Sorry to hijack, FF.) :-( But looking at your screen name, and your recent posts, you are no stranger to either flying, or the OTHER F word. 

[formflier]

I love Hijacks... here... let me help you hijack my own thread!

Yeah... .I've spent an hour or two in airplanes... .

I much prefer flying them, since all professions have idiots and I know plenty of guys I can't believe they gave a pilots license too... .(or NATOPS qual).

The most scared I've been in an airplane was in Central America.  Some no name local airline flying really old 737s.  The ancient engines had and more direct path for bleed air to get into the environmental control system (fancy way to say air conditioning).

Let's also mention that all pilots and aircrew are "supposed" to be able to speak English... since that is the aviation language.  In practice... .right... .Spanish will do.

So... .at rotation there are a lot of loud thumps as a flock of birds got ingested into one of the engines.  The bleed air system meant the smell of burnt chicken instantly filled the cabin of the airplane...

I was flying (passengering is more accurate) with another Navy buddy of mine and so the appropriate conversation starter with him from my mouth went something like "Holy duck... ."  or something close to that... .

Turns out those old engines are tough... .bird parts got spit out the back... .the smell cleared... .and the hollering over the intercom in Spanish finally died down.

We land and get off on the tarmac, think old school down in South America... .no gates they push the stairs up to the airplane and you walk across the concrete. 

Bunch of mechanics and ground crew staring down an engine.  It was a bit of a mess...

Bless our hearts... .I was a bit worried for a bit...


FF

[Notwendy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4nRIw_ATJA

[formflier]

RED 5,

Ever been around SeaBees much?

When I had my two shore commands, both places had lots of SeaBees.

Well... .I would got to meetings at the base clinic with the doctors, nurses and such... .very prim and proper meetings... .gentile is a good word.


Head on over the shop to talk to the Bees... .

I make an announcement and because I'm an open guy and like input, I usually ask what people think... .

"Skipper... .there is no effin way that's going to work.  Last time we tried that it effed all our (blankety blank) equipment up for months.  Anything else you want to know sir?"

Right... .sometimes clear communication is needed.  

FF

[BasementDweller]

Oy! That is a horrifying and gross experience, but pretty funny as well. I think I would have been terrified, and likely wailing profane nonsense in a style similar to my mom's flying behavior. Glad you all got through that! Sadly, the birds did not fare so well! 

Hahaha! Great video, NotWendy! :-)

[formflier]

That was the worse I ever "passengered" through.  I've flown through worse, but you tend to be a bit busy and don't usually realize how bad it is.

All we could do is sit there and say... .come on you guys see it come "Bless our hearts... " 


More stories.  I flew through a hail storm once.  No choice but to go through in order to get to carrier... .or I could have gotten wet.  (funny how choices like that simplify  things)

Anyway... .the loudest 30 seconds or so I've ever experienced in an airplane.  We fly out and think we are lucky and geniuses for surviving.

We land on the carrier and lets just say when everyone on deck is staring and pointing at your airplane... .yeah, you are going to be famous... .  Every leading edge has been sandblasted and much was cracked and all jacked up.

Then... .as RED 5 knows you do the walk of shame to maintenance control and talk to a very stern and disappointed looking maintenance master chief. 

"Hey chief... sorry about what I did to your airplane... ."

Let's just say the response would be very "colorful"... .


FF

[BasementDweller]

Steven "Take Two Beers and Jump" Slater is my spirit animal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FynRYzioJHE

 

[GaGrl]

Let's also mention that all pilots and aircrew are "supposed" to be able to speak English... since that is the aviation language.  In practice... .right... .Spanish will do.

FF

When my DH was posted in Thailand during the Vietnam War, there were Vietnamese pilots who came into the airfield in Thailand.  Yes, theoretically they could speak English... .minimally.  On top of that, they had little sense of protocol on approaches and take-offs.  Their notice consisted of telling the tower:  "We come now" and "We go now."  And by God, the tower better clear the runways, because they were indeed "we come now" and "we go now."

It's always been a joke at our house -- DH picks up his keys and says, "We go now," and everybody better be ready to get in the car.

[formflier]

I love it... .! 

Part of what I enjoyed/appreciated about the military and travelling is an appreciation of how "good" we have it hear in the USA.

We worked with lots of foreign military in Central and South America.  Getting the Navy in a certain country (they were all basically this way) to talk to their Air Force (or other service) was like pulling teeth. 

Trying to teach a concept of "combined arms" and "coordination"... .they looked at us like we had a third eye.

We do what we do... .and have no idea what those other guys do, is pretty much how it works.

FF