How do you identify the wound?

[vanx]

What can I say? Been struggling still and feel compelled to post something today. I think I have a number of questions I want to put out there, but I'll try to keep it concise, but I know it's going to be a bit all over the place. Feel free to single out any small part if it speaks to you!

One thing I struggle with is I believe the concept of old wounds being the issue, but I can't seem to say "This is it. This is the wound. It's not about her at all." I have identified some similarities in my relationship with my mother in therapy, but I don't really connect with that with any consistency. What I think and feel is that I clicked with someone in a way I rarely, rarely connect with another human being at all, but really want to desperately. My psych is trying to get me to change my thoughts from I want badly to be with her, to I want badly to be with someone. I want to be open to the idea, but I can't conceive of feeling this way about another person, even if some of the reasons I feel this way could be unhealthy or problematic. So I guess you need to pinpoint what it is you need (which sounds like it's validation?) and give that to yourself? The real challenge is doing that in the wake of being devalued. If you already have low self-esteem, it is devastating, because it's like she picked up on all my insecurities about myself and brought it all to light. She made it not just about why I was losing her, but about why women in general reject me. What she said might not have been kind, but it was brutally honest.

So why did she bring me to life so briefly? I guess here was someone very beautiful and charming who seemed interested in me and was not put off by my awkwardness, but seemed to find it cute. I liked her passionate nature and sensitivity. It made me feel like I could be accepted sharing my sensitivity too, though that ended up causing her to lose attraction in fact. So it's a flaw in me that requires intensity such as hers to feel anything though, right? Is it just a matter of accepting with faith that this need originates from woundedness? I guess for sure I have some work to do depending less on others to make me feel whole. What was so painful about this rejection though was that I didn't like say I needed her to feel okay. I put some pressure on exclusivity since we were sleeping together, but I tried really hard to give her her own space and take responsibility for myself, but she perceived how I felt, read my mind, and was accurate that I felt I desperately needed her. It's tough because I could manage some of my words and behavior, but I couldn't control the anxiety or how I felt, and it came across.

Does anyone else ever feel very inferior to their ex pwBPD? It's not just me that was drawn to her. I still see her at work and see how people find her extra cute and charming like I did, and coworkers are always inviting her to social gatherings. I know she suffers from a serious mental health disorder, but she possesses a lot of qualities I really do admire, and is a much more functional person than I am. That's why I can't get over the hurt that when she dumped me she said it's because she needs someone more emotionally stable. It's not just her devaluing me--granted, she could have given it to me a little more gently, but it's true. And overall she probably made a pretty healthy choice. I know it sounds bad--I don't want her to be unhealthy or suffer, but it shocked my how when the tables turned I was the unhealthy one that needed to be left alone.

Apologies for the ramble--hard for me to articulate. Thought maybe some of it could strike a chord.

[gotbushels]

Hi vanx 

Nice post about exploring. A few thoughts from me here.

What I think and feel is that I clicked with someone in a way I rarely, rarely connect with another human being at all, but really want to desperately.

Can you share more about this? What does rarely connect at all mean? What two points are getting linked?

My psych is trying to get me to change my thoughts from I want badly to be with her, to I want badly to be with someone. I want to be open to the idea,

Why do you want to be open to the idea, what is that going to do for you?

but I can't conceive of feeling this way about another person, even if some of the reasons I feel this way could be unhealthy or problematic.

"feeling this way". "This way" ← this has a meaning to you. It came about because of a set of shared experiences with this person. Logically--and I know this is a massive virtual scenario--but if you shared that exact same set of experiences with another person, wouldn't you feel similar to a "this way" with that person?

[Lost-love-mind]

I'm in awe of relating to both posts.
I keep having imiginary conversations with my exBPD. We thought so much alike even with 2 very educational backgrounds (she HS, me a graduate degree.)
Was she really able to mirror a man with multiple professional designations? Is BPD mirroring go that far?
I fell in love with her sweetness. She taught me about non_gmo foods, filtered water , clean living, etc.
Thanks for the insights. I need to get in with my life. A work in process.

[troisette]

Hello Vanx

"This is it. This is the wound."

When I started hypnotherapy to help recovery, I was looking for the wound that caused me to get involved, repeatedly, with men with PDs.

I thought my wound was the death of my much loved father, when I was three.

I gradually realised that my wound was a set of childhood circumstances: my relationship with an emotionally cold mother, childhood bullying by my siblings, a brother who denigrated women and also the death of my father when I was a small child.

It took a while to uncover this mix and to understand that my wound was a conflation of all of these things and that it led me to attract and be attracted to men who had echoes of traits of my mother, my father and my brother. Neglect and denigration had been absorbed by osmosis as my due.

On the other hand, I was an intelligent and courageous child and these factors influenced my responses, usually to my detriment.

All my exes had strands of my family of origin, negative and positive and it took some time to realise that it wasn't just the death of my father that had caused my fear of abandonment and my vulnerability - that it was far more complex than I originally thought.

I didn't feel inferior to my exes but I did feel that their talents and personalities enhanced me. I tootled along behind their large personalities like a tug behind a steamer rather than do it myself. Much harder now, to do it myself, but much more rewarding being able to be authentic me.

[Idsrvt2]

Same here, me college educated him not... .he was compassionate about my health, carried me up the stairs , washed and dried my hair ... he was very tender with me physically,   Was he really mirroring me
I fell in love with with the way he cared for me, the fun side of him, our shopping trips,  he however thought he was not for me and would not believe the way I felt.

I'm in awe of relating to both posts.
I keep having imiginary conversations with my exBPD. We thought so much alike even with 2 very educational backgrounds (she HS, me a graduate degree.)
Was she really able to mirror a man with multiple professional designations? Is BPD mirroring go that far?
I fell in love with her sweetness. She taught me about non_gmo foods, filtered water , clean living, etc.
Thanks for the insights. I need to get in with my life. A work in process.

[Lucky Jim]

What I think and feel is that I clicked with someone in a way I rarely, rarely connect with another human being at all, but really want to desperately.

Hey vanx, Why do you think you "clicked" with her?  What attracted you?  What is it about you that caused you to fall so hard for this person?  Why do you say you "rarely" connect with others?  Why are you so desperate about connecting?

I know these are tough questions, but might help to focus your thoughts.

LuckyJim

[Skip]

One thing I struggle with is I believe the concept of old wounds being the issue, but I can't seem to say "This is it. This is the wound. It's not about her at all.

The wound is not always obvious or easy to pinpoint, but there is most likely something. These wounds can be hard to find.

Take fear of abandonment, for example. A person with BPD adopts a lifestyle to minimize fear of abandonment... .but how many young people connect their own behavior to this. It would not be obvious.

The same is true for us... .it's not obvious. It takes time. Keep looking and you will find it. A hint may be in how you perceive yourself.

And the wound is not fully responsible for your feelings or loss, it is amplifying your feelings of loss from a broken relationship.

My psych is trying to get me to change my thoughts from I want badly to be with her, to I want badly to be with someone. I want to be open to the idea, but I can't conceive of feeling this way about another person, even if some of the reasons I feel this way could be unhealthy or problematic... .

This is good practical advice. Kudos to your counselor (psych).

It's a numbers game, vanx. You finally hit on someone who valued you for who you are and valued you in a way that made you feel loved. How easy is that to replace?

I can't conceive of feeling this way about another person ~ vanx

You are right. And your counselor is right. Both are true.

Chances are, the next two people you date won't meet you need. It might take 3 or 5 or 10. It might take six months, or a year or two years of dating to find "the one".

Accept this and start doing the thing you need to do to be strong and healthy for "hunting".

So it's a flaw in me that requires intensity such as hers to feel anything though, right?

This is a common problem. If we connect to someone, we connect to all of them. When it is over, we think we value things that, in reality, aren't that important.

I dated someone with flaming locks of auburn hair, with ivory skin and eyes of emerald green and a smile that was like a breath of spring air (no, it wasn't Joline   )... .and these features were most attractive to me in my follow-up dating. And I dated women with flaming locks of auburn hair, etc., but the person I really connected with was very different than the girl I loved so much. Different looks, different personality, different affection.

My point, don't be blinded going forward. You need to shake off this old relationship and be open to very different types of people to reconnect and find that special person.

[Lost-love-mind]

Skip. You are so right. Rethinking physical attraction features.
Blonde and gorgeous blues with petite features. That's all I ever seemed attracted to in women. My ex wife and my exBPD.
In the last 2 weeks, I have been meeting brunnettes with full body figures in person and not internet dating sites.
I've noticed of the 4 women I met off those sites in the past year, all could fit into a PD category. Of course, so could I, as I learned that my fear of abandonment issues from childhood has lead to me being weak, needy and clingy. First, the Npd woman took me to the financial cleaners. And then most recently, my exBPD zapped away all my "emotional equity".
Ironically, the NPD seems to know when I'm most vulnerable and tried to come back into my life this last weekend. Thanks to education on this and other forums, her narcissistic manipulative attempt was so transparent I paid for her dinner and ran from that restaurant. She made another attempt last night via texting.
It's time to move on and learn from my past mistakes. Learn to validate myself and not through a relationship.

 What does all that say?
Nobody is going to be perfect. But don't be afraid to dip your toes into a new pool of water, just have your own life preserver ready.

[vanx]

Thank you for your replies. It means a lot to me that some of what I had to say resonates with people and that even though I was struggling to get some ideas out, a lot of people responded to help me sort it out.

Lost-love-mind, I can relate to having some trouble with seeing the mirroring as well. I really don't know--I am no expert... .we all mirror to a degree when we are courting someone, right? And also not every rule can necessarily apply 100% to each case. But it does seem balanced to consider the possibilities. I am reluctant to say so, because it is painful, but I think it is possible that the connection is real. There are just other layers of issues over top it. I feel for you reminiscing about what you shared, and Idsrvt2 as well.

troisette, I have seen hypnotherapy mentioned here before. Have you found it particularly helpful with unearthing the wounds? As for the "repeatedly" aspect, I recently went on the first date I've been on since my breakup. The girl tells me on the first date she's borderline! Wow.
I am glad you could identify some specific contributors and I will try to do the same. Being the authentic self, that's what I strive for too. You are definitely not alone there. I wish you the best in your journey--it sounds like you are well on your way!

gotbushels, thanks for challenging me with some questions. I'll answer them all here to help me get a little deeper.

Can you share more about this? What does rarely connect at all mean? What two points are getting linked?

It means I feel very separate and guarded from most people. I want to be more interested in them, but I'm not. Sometimes it's based on kind of innocuous things like taste in movies or music. Sometimes it's qualities I am still not sure what they are. Once in a rare while I meet someone I really admire and consistently want to know more and more about. Even rarer is that person feeling similar about me. So far, it happens once every 10 or 12 years that I come across such a person. Then there is a deep understanding between the two of us, and as I fantasize, a mutual nurturing of high sensitivity.

Why do you want to be open to the idea, what is that going to do for you?

It would help me move on, be available to other people, let go. It would be taking sound professional advice. It would mean not idealizing my ex and seeing her as the one person I want to be with.

"feeling this way". "This way" ← this has a meaning to you. It came about because of a set of shared experiences with this person. Logically--and I know this is a massive virtual scenario--but if you shared that exact same set of experiences with another person, wouldn't you feel similar to a "this way" with that person?

Yes, but what this really speaks to is my fear that my attraction and feelings of connection are out of my control. There are some positive aspects, and probably some toxic and negative factors that bonded me with my ex. I do agree with and appreciate what you are saying though, and this is the kind of thought process that could be helpful to me I see. But I am bothered by the thought that there is only one her. Even if the positive experiences, even the same experiences or similar ones were shared with another person, it wouldn't be her. I'll never be able to get through to her. I can never get her to understand that I get it better now, and didn't mean to hold her accountable in a way that is hurtful and unfair to her considering her condition. That person that I could get through to is gone to me. I have to work on at least two things internally. One involves appreciating qualities in other people that could be healthier for me. The other involves meeting my own needs that I wanted badly from her. Maybe what I'm saying is I could replicate "this way" with someone else, but I would be searching for the same archetype, and it would still be her on my mind.

Lucky Jim, these are questions I'll keep thinking over, but will touch on a little now. I think I clicked with her because of the amount of attention she gave me for starts. I kept thinking "boy, I blew it", but then I would get a text from her saying she looked up my number and wanted to hang out some time. I wasn't used to a woman actually being so into me. I fell the hardest because she seemed to need me and I liked to feel needed, but then she expressed a reluctance to "belong to anyone" and a need for independence. Before she suddenly backed out I liked her a whole lot, but when it was suddenly gone is when I felt I really needed her.

I think I am desperate for connection because I don't feel complete in myself. I know it's not professionally recommended to find that fulfillment in another person, but I am just being honest about my feelings on the matter. Feeling wanted and needed makes me feel really good and like a giving, supportive person. Because of a repeated failure to connect, because people leave me due to my anxieties and attachment issues, I want desperately to be accepted by someone else to heal the pain of the other losses. I want to know that connection is possible.

Skip, it makes me feel better to have you say the wound is hard to find. I guess in that case I will keep searching and try to be patient. Likewise, I hear what you mean about the rarity of finding that connection and the need to kind of plow through. Furthermore, I really connect with your advice about the need to be open to different types of people. I think a lot of healing for me will come through some hard work of actually pushing myself to appreciate a wider scope of people/qualities than I currently do. That might open me to some qualities that would work better for me in a relationship, and also, it would feel good to just feel like a more open-minded and loving person in that regard.

What sticks out to me the most however is your minimizing of what I thought was very significant, my need for a dramatic person to awaken stunted emotions in me. I will put a lot more thought into the possibility that I am over thinking this. Maybe it's just something about this point in my life right now, the anhedonia and dull depression, which are of course the real issues that need healing. I think a lot of it is also that she showed interest in me, and I've lost the drive to reach out to others. As I mentioned above, I went on a date for the first time since the breakup and the woman tells me she's borderline. Again, she reached out to me to set things up. Anyhow, I appreciate the point about being open to different types of people. That seems huge... .

Thanks for the replies, everyone. Just another little layer to peel off... .

[troisette]

Hello Vanx

Yes, I have found hypnotherapy helpful in unearthing my wounds.

I've had hypnotherapy before and my present hypnotherapist does not implant ideas or use aversion therapy "The taste of a cigarette will be disgusting" or "You will eat smaller portions of food". I don't think that sort of approach would have worked for me viz my pattern of getting involved with PDs.

Rather, he hypnotises me (I am fully aware during the sessions) and he speaks to my subconscious. He asks my subconscious mind what emotion/reaction it wishes to change. Working back, like a computer tree, he reaches the source of the reaction or emotion I wish to change. I do the work myself, guided by him.

I had almost two years of nc with my ex although there were a few encounters on the street and at parties (we live six streets away from each other, this made the break-up especially difficult), also what may have been an indirect attempt to get me to contact him after the first six months, this after the break-up with his recycled ex. I did not respond and am glad I didn't, I was too raw.

The nc was valuable for me, it gave me time to process what had happened and read about BPD. He is undiagnosed but after much research I was as sure as I could be that he is quiet waif type. After the first year I was getting there but still not where I wanted to be. So I saw my present hypnotherapist, recommended by a friend, for five or six sessions over four months and felt much better.

I saw my ex around town a few times after that and I felt he was gradually gearing up for a recycle. In the spring of this year he made a full-on attempt. "I've always loved you, we've wasted two years, what do you want from a relationship with me?" 

He's very charming, and persuasive and I did see him a few times. This is when I realised the value of nc- it gives you distance, a more balanced perspective. Although I wanted to believe him I soon realised that although he may have meant what he said at the time, he isn't capable of sustaining an adult and committed relationship. His fragile ego (he also has NPD traits) needs much feeding, more than one person could supply. So, he still needed his circle of female orbiters feeding his ego. There are about twelve of them, all needy women who enjoy their tete-a-tete dinners with him, his flirtiness and they reciprocate by giving him ego feed. This was not what I wanted from a relationship and he knew that.

I saw him again with eyes wide open and in touch with my feelings - this due to the hypnotherapy. I was able to observe boundaries. However, I had still been vulnerable to the avowals of love so I wasn't completely over him. I noticed his triangulations, his lack of real intimacy, his childishness. I also noticed that several of his political and social views had changed, he was mirroring new friends. It was a strange experience. We are both in our sixties and the changes were probably more noticeable because of his age.

I ended it, and actually got the sense of resolution that was lacking when we first broke up. Other people here have said that a short recycle can be beneficial and I agree. I only speak for myself though and this was after two years nc and much reading and hypnotherapy. I'm not advising anyone to take that route.

However, I realised that I had been vulnerable so went back to see my hypnotherapist. I've had one further session and will have a couple more. A month or so between sessions - this because he has asked me to journal: memories, thoughts and feelings pop up out of nowhere after a session. I forward my stream-of-consciousness notes to him and he underlines, by email, what I thought were innocuous thoughts, giving me further food for thought about what emotions and reactions I want to work on in my next session and I understand that there are previously unrecognised elements of my wound. Big ahas that I'm looking forward to resolving.

So you see, it's a specialised form of hypnotherapy, he is recognised as one of the best in the UK, and it's been  enormously helpful to me.

Best wishes to you Vanx on your personal journey.

[takingandsending]

Hey vanx

Some direct questions for you.

If an attractive woman sees you, and sees your sensitivity and even your weaknesses, do you believe that she will stay with you?

Do you deserve to be loved?

When you have connected with someone, did you find them/ask them to be with you? Or were you surprised to find that they were interested in you, asking about you, asking to be with you?

Just wondering how you feel about these things. These questions have been leading to pretty central wounds in me. And I too, make rare connections, they are intense and painful, and they are typically with women that have some type of disordered thinking and fit profiles of sexual abuse.

[vanx]

troisette, I enjoyed reading your story, mostly since I felt proud that you were able to maintain perspective and step away from a situation that was not good for you. I am glad you have found therapy that works for you. I may look into hypnotherapy in addition to my current regimen, because it does sound like it can get you in touch with old wounds.

takingandsending, thanks for challenging me with some questions to get me looking deeper. No, after this experience I guess I do not feel lovable. I feel I have issues that send cause the other person to lose attraction, weaknesses that are unmanly.

In the past, I was the one pursuing, but did feel very insecure the other person could really like me. No pressure, but if you have the time, I would be very interested what you learned. I'll take a stab that my loneliness and insecurity lead me to become very attached to someone who was seemingly very interested in me, though rationally I maybe should have seen that things were moving too fast to be as substantial as they felt.

[takingandsending]

Hi vanx.

Sorry for the delay in responding. Someone called CPS on my xw, so I have been back in the BPD world of drama, trying to spare my kids from it.

What I am learning (wish I could say past tense "learned" but I am neck deep in the process right now) is that the intimate relationships I have formed with women have largely been because I saw them as safe in the following ways:
1. They showed obvious and strong signs of interest in me, so that the risk of rejection was very low. This is important to me because I have an almost paralyzing fear of being rejected by a woman that I am attracted to. The underlying thoughts that compel this fear are "I am ugly", "I do not deserve love", "I am not wanted". If I use my rational mind, none of these thoughts really can bear the light of logic, but they are deep, core emotional fears that I have come to accept as beliefs.
2. I was in a position to help them (rescuer role) or if I wasn't in that position initially, I soon inserted myself into that position. This is important to me because I need to be seen as the more rational or stable person in a relationship because if I were in a relationship with someone more emotionally healthy than me, they would leave (kind of leads back into the first point about rejection). I can actually recall times with my xw where I confessed that I feared she would work out her problems and leave me because there was nothing left to stay for. The underlying thought for this is "I am weak".

In my FOO, not having needs, not being vulnerable, was rewarded. I determined from a young age to be self-sufficient, to not have to ask for help, to help others but not make demands on others. I equated that with being strong and centered. Now, I am realizing that being vulnerable, admitting that I have human needs to be seen, loved, touched is not weakness. Someone on the boards recently said, "A man having needs and having a plan for how to get them met is the ultimate in sexy." Definitely not the way I think. I always thought having few needs would be appealing. In the end, we need what we need, and suppressing or hiding are feelings and needs for validation doesn't make us strong or more attractive.

Anyway, that's where my investigation has led so far. That I end up with disordered partners is safe for me. Not terribly happy. Not much fun over the long haul. But safe. I don't have to look at my needs, I don't have to be friends with myself, I can just be "strong" and caring. I do care about others. I loved my wife. But each relationship I have been in has ultimately been pretty lopsided. I thought that when my wife love bombed me, I was moving in a positive direction - someone who really got me and loved me as I am. But I wasn't loving me as I am. I thought her love bombing could give me the support I needed to bridge that gap. But it didn't last. And then devaluation started. I believed it when she told me that I wasn't doing the right things, wasn't putting us first, wasn't the same caring person. So I did more ... .and more, and accepted less and less.

I believe that embracing these wounds, caring for ourselves, learning to love ourselves is the only valid path through. When you love yourself, rejection is not so fearsome. When you love yourself, there is no strong or weak, you meet yourself where you are, hopefully with humor and patience. I am starting to realize that my humanity is really not so different, so much more deficient, so much less attractive, not so separate from any other human that walks the earth. Of course it's not. And in all this ground, there's the potential for self acceptance and self love.

Don't know if this resonates with you. I encourage you on the path you are on. I hope it leads to understanding and better appreciation and love for the person that you are. I am certain that as that comes, the possibility for healthier relationships increases.

[vanx]

Not at all. I am sorry to hear what you're going through, and I appreciate you replying when there's a lot going on.

Your number 1 aspect has really come up for me. I think you articulated the feeling well. And your number 2 point about the rejection issue is very interesting. I hadn't thought about it in those terms, but I wonder if I did think the same things deep inside. I definitely identify with the feeling weak part, and I really do appreciate your words of self-acceptance regarding having needs. And your closing remarks are very inspiring and balanced. In the end, despite the pain and difficulties, and the loss or whatever else you may experience, it is comforting that the overarching message is a need for greater self love. Then it doesn't seem too bad at all.

Anyhow, I appreciate the kind words, and for you answering my question. This does resonate with me.