Still Seeking Validation From My Ex

[Turkish]

I flew out of state for a business trip for two days,  giving yup my custody days this week.  She kind of bothered me last night,  "when are you getting back? Tonight or tomorrow?" Even though I told her that I was returning last night,  picking up the mobs tonight (her last day this week,  but the kids wanted to spend tonight with me and she respected that,  no scheduling issues).

I replied by text,  still in the other state, " tonight, why?"

5 hours later,  home by then,  she texted, "just wondering." I didn't respond.  

I picked up the kids this evening.  I'll admit I felt a little put out that she didn't ask how my trip was.  I saw old friends (we had worked together at another company in the late 90s, small industry) I hadn't seen in 9 years, whom she had met and asked about before I left.

Others here have pointed out that I'm still too connected. I think my own feelings result in me often being frustrated because after 6 years, I'm not fully detached. I really need too make friends locally.  

Last weekend I was invited to a family event.  I said goodbye to my kids and her family, but not her.  She later mentioned that I didn't say goodbye to her.  Maybe that was me being passive-aggressive? Yes. I'm falling back into the familiar BPD behaviours I picked up from my BPD mother. That doesn't excuse me.  

Edit: she just sent me an email about what I said two weekends ago when I said that if we were married that I told her she still, would have cheated and how much it hurt her.  I have the kids for the weekend. I won't see her for a week. I'm not going to respond but rather sit on it.  I think she feels giulty and said that age wouldn't cheat on her current husband.  I'd bet money that she wouldn't, even though kind of separated. I'm not going to engage this tonight. 

It's pathetic that I even want to engage this. 

[Insom]

Others here have pointed out that I'm still too connected. I think my own feelings result in me often being frustrated because after 6 years, I'm not fully detached. 

Turkish, thanks for sharing this.  I can relate with what it feels like to continue to crave the attention and approval of an ex even though the relationship is clearly unworkable.

I really need too make friends locally.

Nice idea.  Would you like to say more about where you're living now?  How long have you been there?  What's your take on the social scene/what do people like to do?

[Turkish]

I've lived in the silicon valley since 2K. Lived in this house since 2010. There is plenty to do here.  To sound like a whiner who needs a safe room and crayons, it's hard to connect with people given my current life.  Work, kids every 2-3 days, never-ending undone things around the house... .I'm friends with several people at work,  but we all commute and have families.  There aren't many people in my place in life at church,  though I am friendly with a few. 

I met my ex volunteering as a mentor for at risk youth.  Though that was awesome the two years I did it,  it was a significant commitment of time I'd be unable to do as a half time single parent. 

On occasion, I'll volunteer with a local homeless outreach,  but it's similar to church. 

My ex once said,  "if you need to do something,  make the time." It bugged me,  but there is a little truth there... .I say as I sit under the back patio which needs a new covering.

After a business trip this week out of state,  my boss wants me to lead a new multi-site initiative (and we don't know if it would work due to politics and distance) so busier at work.  Sometimes i want to crawl into a hole to recharge after the "adulting" (as the millenials say) is done.  I suppose that downtime is when i need to assert something new. 

My struggle is between falling back into what is easy, known,  and comfortable. I learned this back in youth mentoring over a decade ago: try something new because you don't know what you don't know.

I feel that focusing on my responsibilities is at the expense of neglecting myself.  I was doing cleaning today and found the paperwork where I was accepted to UND (University of North Dakota) to finish a remote degree program. That was just before my ex went off the reservation and I dropped it.  What I wanted would have been of no consequence to my career so I'm not thinking of revisting it,  but it caused me to think about how much all of this impacted me. 

[JNChell]

Hey, Turkish. What you’ve described is far from pathetic. In fact, from what I’ve read about you in the time I’ve been a member here, your courage and willingness to set yourself aside when it comes to your children is quite, quite commendable. You have approached your situation in a way that I wish that I could for the overall well being of my son. The thing is, is that I’m still afraid of his mom. The more time that I spend here and in therapy, as well as continued reading and research, I’m realizing that I’m dealing with a borderline that is highly narcissistic. In my best estimation, my mother was a borderline and my dad was a narcissist. Like you, I was adopted. As much as I look up to you, I am constantly wishing that you would focus on self care a bit more. I wish that you would set more boundaries. Our days are numbered and we deserve to live happily.

Your self awareness in the fact that you’re still not detached from your ex is important. Do you want to be detached from her? Do you want to move on to the next chapter of your life? Are you curious about what the next chapter might entail?

Turkish, am I wrong in recognizing that your ex has her cake and is eating it too? You make so many sacrifices for your children as all parents should. What is not apparent are the sacrifices (self care) that you make for yourself. Do you still have hope that you and your ex-wife will reconcile?

You are very self aware which is a blessing that the people that we discuss here don’t possess. You even recognize the BPD fleas from childhood. You’re good there. I have them too.

Making new friends at our age is difficult. Unfortunately, we weren’t given the tools to have established our circle by now. I have a circle, but it’s very small. I’m not very interested in growing it. I feel safe and comfortable with the folks that I’m involved with. These relationships have grown over decades and many have come and gone. I’ve got some decent friendships at work, but we don’t hang out outside of that. Maybe we eventually will, but it is what it is for now .

What is best for you, Turkish?

[Harri]

Hi Turkish!

Do you know what self care is?  Why it is so important?  I ask because I think a lot of us don't know what it is.

As for your ex, I imagine it is hard to separate given that you have 2 kids.  A clean break would, I think, be easier.  That is not to say it can't be done. 

JNChell said: 

Turkish, am I wrong in recognizing that your ex has her cake and is eating it too?

This is an interesting observation.  From my vantage point, she is getting the very best of you still and you get... .what?  I know you recognize that you are going back to (or sticking with) what is comfortable/known, but what are you getting emotionally?  List it out for yourself, you don't have to share it here though that might help. 

As someone who spends too much time isolated, my T would spend a lot of time getting me to think of ways to be active... .not so much meet people (too much pressure for me) but to get out, have fun without a huge commitment on my part.  One idea was hooking up with the library and some of the free presentations, game nights, book clubs (no long membership required... .just read a book and spend a night listening/talking about it.  The point was not to make friends but to get me out of my comfort zone and out of my thoughts about what I 'should be doing' and do something interesting and fun for me (aka self care).

Just throwing stuff out there and seeing what might work for you.

[Turkish]

She's been having and eating cake from the beginning. 

What do I get out of it is right.  That's the question I asked myself when she asked to come back 1.5 years ago "because I can't be without the kids no more." Of only her H knew that at the time,  months after they were physically separated, that he was second choice.  I could have really messed with them then,  but that would have been evil.  In writing this,  it only just occurred to me that I could have really messed with them... .

Book club! Good idea. But I'm imagining a room full of spinsters and single men haunted by life, peppered with a few people relishing a captive audience to validate that they are smart though in reality not so much.  Anyone have experience with book clubs?

Harri, you don't know what you don't know.  That mantra helped me as well. We were offering the teens an alternative in that what they were doing wasn't working.  I had wanted to mentor for years and finally dragged myself,  mentally kicking and screaming,  to the orientation session.  Though I'm not clinically "anxious" I used to lean that way and the mentoring experience helped break me free from my mental safe room. 

[Panda39]

I have discovered for myself that part of my "mommy issues" is trying to prove to my critical controlling mom that I'm good... .perfect... .the daughter she wants.  A dysfunctional/OCDish behavior that I developed is that I put responsibility first before myself.  Work before play.  The behavior is about my self-esteem but it can also be about hiding.  I can hide behind responsibility... .avoid things that are hard by hiding behind my responsibilities. 

I'm introverted so social engagement is hard for me... .my usual MO is yes I'll go do whatever (I want to go), then I start thinking about all the things I "have to do", then I think I shouldn't go, then I get stressed out about going, but I've made the commitment so I have to go (responsibility again ), then I go, have a good time and wonder why I don't do that more often.  Wash, rinse, repeat.

It sounds like you might hiding behind responsibility and maybe using that to avoid your own needs? 

I think in terms of getting out of the responsibility rut... .work, kids, work, kids, work... .you don't have to take on anything gigantic, maybe just go out to lunch with someone at work, or go for a walk on your lunch break and invite some people to go with you, or invite a friend with kids around your kid's ages to go to the zoo for an afternoon...   I think you have people in your life but it's about making a different kind of connection with them.

To me it's about giving yourself permission. 

Why do you think you are still so involved with your ex and her family?  What do you get out of that?  Can you move away from that and get the same needs met somewhere else?  Are you (secretly) hoping to get back together?  I think you know intellectually that it wouldn't work, but where is your heart in all of this?  Do you see your ex as she really is? Or do you idealize her in some way? Are you waiting for her to change her mind and come back?  Do you blame yourself for the break up of your marriage? (yes, she cheated but we can blame ourselves for that) Are you holding on to her family to have "family"?  What do you deserve? What are you avoiding?

Panda39

[Insom]

Hey, it sounds like you've done some good thinking on this, Turkish.  I like how you've noted what's worked in the past and explained where you're at right now. 

Also, nice comments by Harri, JNChell and Panda39 about prioritizing self-care.  I hear work is drawing a lot from you right now, as is your role as a single parent.  How do you feel about de-prioritizing the "never-ending" list of stuff that you do around the house for a few months in favor of getting out and having a bit of fun?  Would that feel OK? 

[Harri]

Yes, you could have messed with them but you chose not to.  I can understand the desire and I can appreciate your realization that it would be easy and yet you still chose not to.   To me, and take this for what it is worth (2 cents) the desire tells me you are still hurting.  It was tempered by understanding and the strength of character to not do so... .but the desire was still there.  That seems normal to me to be honest.  You're still healing and it is okay.  So that is my obvious 2cents!  haha

Do you think you might be in a place of limbo... .half way between still being in a relationship, at least in terms of time spent with her and things shared, and a break up?  Did you ever really grieve the break-up and her betrayal?

Book club! Good idea. But I'm imagining a room full of spinsters and single men haunted by life, peppered with a few people relishing a captive audience to validate that they are smart though in reality not so much.  Anyone have experience with book clubs?

    You could end up with a December May romance (did I order that correctly) with one of those spinsters... .just make sure you are not allergic to cats.  You could take long romantic naps together and talk about the old days... .

It is about getting you out and focusing on you... .so go to the library function/classes/book club and people watch and forget about the yard work and the patio roof and everything else.  Maybe you could start a class and teach something?  Or get friendly with a librarian?  Or read some really cool books.

Panda: 

To me it's about giving yourself permission. 

Insom: 

How do you feel about de-prioritizing the "never-ending" list of stuff that you do around the house for a few months in favor of getting out and having a bit of fun?  Would that feel OK?

I put in the above two quotes so you can't avoid them... .

 

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Turkish, On weekends, I like to walk in the woods and look for interesting birds.  Maybe this sounds simplistic, but unless I'm out in the field, it's unlikely that I will see any good birds.  In other words, the birds don't come to me; if I want to see birds, I have to go where the birds are.  (I know I sound a little like Yogi Berra!).

Same could be said for dating.  One has to be out "in the field" if one expects to encounter single people.  I've met women who I subsequently dated at the following activities: a bicycle trip, a tennis camp, an art seminar, a coffee shop, a friend's house, a business reception, a high school reunion, etc.  The one constant is that I was doing something that I enjoyed, which is why I would suggest pursuing your passions in order to meet like-minded people.

If you meet someone you enjoy hanging out with, I predict you will rely less on your Ex for validation.

LuckyJim

[gotbushels]

Turkish   

Others here have pointed out that I'm still too connected.

While others' opinions are valuable, I want to bring it back to context here.

I think my own feelings result in me often being frustrated because after 6 years, I'm not fully detached.

You guys share kids together, I don't think you can expect the kind of 100%-detachment "BPD-overboard!" style detachment that appears with the people without kids. Therefore I think it's fine if you're still invested in making a workable relationship with your ex. In fact--if there are kids involved--some may say it's good you're not completely detached in order to create a "2-parent" psychological backdrop for your kids. I think you can cut yourself some slack.

Yes. I'm falling back into the familiar BPD behaviours I picked up from my BPD mother. That doesn't excuse me. 

If you spend 18 years (I guess here) with a BPD mother--then I think even if you spend heaps of effort in behavioural re-training for yourself, years of therapy, etc., it's still fair to expect there will be some behaviours remnant from when you were a child. I don't think you really have to excuse yourself because no one is saying it's your fault. Why persecute yourself if your mother isn't around. I'm just a user here talking to an "old wolf" so I'll support that and say that's also consistent with Lawson's thinking that the mother-child dynamic is one of the toughest for the child to break free of--simply because the want to enable a mother figure's survival is a deep instinct.

It's pathetic that I even want to engage this. 

I think this comes back to the validation.

Re: Still Seeking Validation From My Ex

I don't have the direct continued experience of 6 years with a pwBPD (what a feat!); but I know the feeling of being beholden to someone's opinion when we don't want to be.

She later mentioned that I didn't say goodbye to her.  Maybe that was me being passive-aggressive?

To me I see this as BPD saying something to coerce a reaction. Projection of uncaring. Projection of passive-aggresive? "Ok, Turkish bought in, now I have a dialogue going." I don't know what kind of non-approach you would take, so to attempt to put myself in a position of wanting validation, I'd think something like this.

What do I want? I want her to not even talk to me, I have other things in my life, and "I am done caretaking you". When she tries a projection or coercive dialogue (my assumption here), then she is doing something I don't want. That's invalidating because at this point I might have already "trained" her that triangulation=pain, so when I don't get what I want, i.e., her keeping silent, then I am in a want of validation. Being in that position, I learned, is to open yourself up to (1) entanglement/enmeshment (2) projection (3) intimacy (we apparently fight with those we're intimate with). I want none of those 3. So how do I get out of the position of wanting someone else's validation?


I say this next bit emphasising care, support, and helpfulness as a fellow member... .I think if you've (1) had to face triangulation-inducing dialogue for 6 years and (2) endure 18 years of programming by a BPD mother; then you have way more room to relax and be less intense about your self-imposed standards. These two factors would make your life way more difficult than people that date a BPD for 3 months and claim the sky is falling.   

[Turkish]

I don't mean to diminish anyone in AA, but my name is Turkish,  and it's been one day since my last relapse.

The trip to the mountains fell through,  partly due to my buddy's me employee walking off the job so he has to pull extra shifts, and also due to S8 being sick. He threw up in the driveway yesterday when my ex picked them up.  I was later accused because I took them to the park Sunday for half an hour, like the smoke from our wildefires made him sick. He has a virus. She told me just now that his throat hurt.  Cousin and her mom have bronchitis. D6 is the one with asthma and she's fine. Virus.

I cancelled our trip out of town. My ex invited me over Rio her parents' house for thanksgiving.  I said I'd bring the kids.  Two years ago I did a mini thanksgiving here (because my kids are p8cky, stuffing and mashed potatoes were solely for me
.  I could have shopped tonight,  but I'll be ok going there. Plans changed, ex told me tonight that she is sick too,  I'll be ok going there.

Ill answer the other stuff later.

gb, my mom adopted me when I was 2.4, so not quite 18 years, but I hear what you're saying. 

[Harri]

Hi Turkish.  Sorry to hear your little guy is sick. 

I cancelled our trip out of town. My ex invited me over Rio her parents' house for thanksgiving.  I said I'd bring the kids.  Two years ago I did a mini thanksgiving here (because my kids are p8cky, stuffing and mashed potatoes were solely for me
.  I could have shopped tonight,  but I'll be ok going there. Plans changed, ex told me tonight that she is sick too,  I'll be ok going there.

You will be okay going there.  It is good that you feel good posting this, AA meeting aside!  I am not going to get on you for that or for your choice to go to to ex-laws. 

I will remind you of the tools you know how to use.  It is too easy to forget especially coming off the last incident.  Just because she was not screaming yelling and hitting does not mean you didn't get pummeled in that exchange.  Take care of you.  Make sure you have an easy exit and know that you can always say I am leaving and will be back in 2 hours to get the kids or whatever.  Be good and mindful of yourself.

[Turkish]

S8 is still sick.  He's almost lost his voice.  Still barfed this morning but was able to keep down soup. My ex told me today that she's getting the kids to meditate. I didn't know what to say to that so I said nothing. 

We have it off but I'm going into work friday and Saturday at least partial days.  Otherwise Monday will be too much.  I swang by today for an hour then snuck out to get the kids.

I'm not a workaholic,  but getting things done, helping others and solving problems feels good.  Is that a form of self care?

I was reading part of The Sermon on the Mount tonight to the kids at bedtime.  I thought about things when Jesus said worrying about tomorrow and not to work to lay up treasures on earth which decays and can be stolen.  I should throw this out to my ex if she starts yakking about my non-articulated goals. At least she doesn't get me self help books or try to give me financial advice anymore (which I realize is about her).

[gotbushels]

[... .] getting things done, helping others and solving problems feels good.  Is that a form of self care?

I think keeping yourself occupied and taking satisfaction from doing useful things is a way to keep the river flowing while waiting for things that disturb you to blow over.   

Turkish I'm interested in your thoughts here:

[... .] how do I get out of the position of wanting someone else's validation?

[Turkish]

I think keeping yourself occupied and taking satisfaction from doing useful things is a way to keep the river flowing while waiting for things that disturb you to blow over.   

Turkish I'm interested in your thoughts here:

how do I get out of the position of wanting someone else's validation?

You won't let me off the hook,  good. 
Part of what attracted my ex to me was that I wasn't socially anxious like she was.  Part of what enabled me to "go for it" with her was putting myself out there with little fear of rejection.

One of my long term friends gives kind of a back handed compliment,  "given how you grew up,  I never thought you'd do well, but you surprised me and I'm proud of you." He's kind of Asperger-ish and it's funny though minorly hurtful.

The only people who've really been critical in my life have been the two most significant women: my mother and the mother of my children. I didn't respond to my ex's late night out of the blue email because the last time we had a personal email conversation in 2013 she implied that I lacked character. 

Some of my co-worker friends I've known for many years,  my boss now and also the same at another company in the mid 90s are very positive about how I've done given where I came from.  Yet the negative critic from my mom and my mate I hear the strongest. My mom,  not anymore.  My ex,  still,  as if I have something to prove.

I don't want to be trapped in a car with her again.  D6 has a school trip to the aquarium next week.  I know she'll ask to carpool.  I'm thinking saying no.  She was really sick on thanksgiving. I made a 3AM trip to the ER for S8 who had the croup, D6 was also sick with fever,  not the croup,  and their mom was sick enough to skip thanksgiving with her family... .her husband was there taking care of her.  The upside was that I didn't have to deal with her anxieties over the kids.  D6 was passed out on the couch with a fever. No croup though.  The kids were ok this morning when I dropped them off. 

I guess my point is that I should not only go back to validating myself,  but in believing those that do and believing them.

My tendency is to reject praise and believe more the opposite,  despite logical facts.   

[gotbushels]

I guess my point is that I should not only go back to validating myself,  but in believing those that do and believing them.

Good ideas Turkish, I'll definitely support these. I'd like to understand a bit more; do you actually want to go forward to validating yourself or is there something keeping you from doing it in these situations?

My tendency is to reject praise and believe more the opposite,  despite logical facts.  

Did you take this further or were you satisfied living with the tendency? I'm guessing you could have some opportunity for yourself around self-approval or allowing yourself to feel you deserve praises on a deeper level. What I mean is that I guess there are two paths, and you describe a tendency toward path #1:

• Path 1: disbelieve, disqualify, minimise praise from others, thereby disallowed the praise from helping you feel good.
• Path 2: believe, qualify, multiply(?) praise from others, thereby allowing the praise to help you feel good.

[Turkish]

Yes. I tend towards Path 1, though I haven't thought through the implications of the conclusion in the dependent clause: disallowed the praise from helping you feel good.

There's likely a differentiation angle here. I feel that I do the opposite of The Lake Wobegon Effect; I minimize myself.

In the mid 00s, I was a member of an international technical group (like a subset of IEE) and won first place in the B&W category for the annual photo contest.  The following year I won first place in the false color category.  The following year I only placed 6th for my B&W submission and thought "meh, I already did it." I found the plaques in a box the other day.  It kind of was a big deal, but not really.  My ex wanted me to hang them up to motivate our kids later. I might show them later when they are old enough to understand them as the links are online.   

Earlier in college,  I took three philosophy classes from the same teacher. I only got a B on the first essay.  I identified his requirements and thereafter received As on all midterm and final essays. Some of my friends in the last class used to joke that I was his son.  So I purposely "phoned in," so to speak, one of the last essays (I also only turned in 1st drafts because we hand wrote them back then,  and maybe I was lazy). I received a B and his note "ok,  but not your usual quality." I had to know if he was just rewarding me for continuing to take his classes. 

Maybe it's because I project my feelings about myself onto other people. 

These feelings,  however,  had their genesis in early childhood where I was severely bullied and a pariah. That mostly stopped by the time I was a sophomore in high school (14-15), but the seeds were sown.   

[gotbushels]

Hmm OK about the photo contest.

It kind of was a big deal, but not really.

I do think there are some things that are more important to us than others, and in your example here it also seems like two sets of feelings. Why was it a big deal, but not a big deal?

I had to know if he was just rewarding me for continuing to take his classes. 

Well I think it's okay to derive some satisfaction about your ability to identify and improve upon that thing you identified. I think it's also okay to derive pleasure when people give approval. Both seem beneficial to me.

It seems that your need to know you got your A by your competence rather than his preference for your continued attendance was important to you--I do think it's quite normal to want an A from your own contribution. An A objectively given seems to have more worth than an A which had a factor that we seemed to contribute less for.

Maybe it's because I project my feelings about myself onto other people. 

I didn't quite see this. It seems that a want to get greater accuracy of praise makes sense to me. Perhaps manipulating your performance to test the accuracy of a teacher's grade is a way to induce greater pleasure for yourself that you're capable of such a thing? Even if that's so, I don't think that's wrong, and I cautiously say that makes sense to me. To me, that's a more logical path than a basis of projection. It may be more true for you than the idea that you project a trait of "unjust preference" upon him.

That mostly stopped by the time I was a sophomore in high school (14-15), but the seeds were sown.   

There could be some truth here--your minimising legitimate compliments could be more from a disbelief of value (of personal competence in a specific area) rather than a tendency to project onto others. That could then be linked to an increased want of validation; because if you disbelieve your value on a continual basis, then I think that will create vulnerability to others' approvals.

I'm really not sure, and I'm not a psychoanalyst     just some thoughts that might make the whole self-validation and believing others much easier to run with. What do you make of it?

[Turkish]

There could be some truth here--your minimising legitimate compliments could be more from a disbelief of value (of personal competence in a specific area) rather than a tendency to project onto others. That could then be linked to an increased want of validation; because if you disbelieve your value on a continual basis, then I think that will create vulnerability to others' approvals.

I think that this is close to the conclusion I've come to.  I don't like to be vulnerable or dependent.  This trait bugged my ex about me,  though she was also attracted to my independence.  I never found the happy medium with her. 

[gotbushels]

This trait bugged my ex about me,  though she was also attracted to my independence.  I never found the happy medium with her.

Well given that BPDs are supposed to be generally undifferentiated--which I think is related to independence--then I think it's expected that she isn't aware of the level of dependence or independence she'd want from a partner in a relationship.

I think that this is close to the conclusion I've come to.  I don't like to be vulnerable or dependent.  

I think a lot of us are on the same page here. We don't like to be vulnerable where we have to depend on others to get things we need or want. Extreme dependence between two people is enmeshment, I think--that basic trait of relationships with a BPD. Hmm maybe you might consider trying to increase your sense of personal strength and perhaps independence?

Given that we share similar conclusions, what that could be for you is making self-approval a strength. That way, it seems you'd be more likely to believe your own value on a continual basis, and thereby reduce your vulnerability to the approval of others.    Of course, that would nicely reduce any tendency toward wanting validation from others in general--which includes your exSO.

[Turkish]

I think some validation is necessary,  even vital.  It's the motivation which is vital to healthy interactions. 

She asked me the other night of we could carpool too D's field trip today.  I said sure,  as long as I didn't have to hear about my lack of not well articulated goals in life.  She agreed with a smiley 

Yesterday she said that the teacher asked if we could give another parent a ride also.  No problem.  Another mother went with us. 

After the kids got back on the bus,  we agreed to grab lunch since it was early and none of us had to be back.  Since we were in Monterey, we went to seafood.  My ex suggested the place.  It was expensive,  but I said,  "we don't get good seafood where we live,  so I'm ok with it." The bill was $109 and we only had one appetizer,  I got a cup of chowder for myself and we all got halibut fish and chips, no drinks.  I was ok paying most of it,  but the other mother insisted on giving me $25. I said it was ok,  just  get  the tip. I gave her $5 back. She gave it back.  Then my ex said,  "no, it's ok," indicating to me to return the entire amount,  so I gave it back. The lady gave it back. I was ok,  but then my ex said,  "no,  it's ok,  he can afford it." So I gave it back and the lady insisted I keep it so I did.  Stupid! One iteration meets the norms of social decorum,  IMO. She was already thankful that I gave her a ride.

I think that my ex still feels deprived that we didn't live better when she was with me,  because when we disclosed finances,  she thought I made about $20k/yr less than I did. She still owes me about $1500 for supposedly shared childcare expenses over the last year and a half too.  Her comment bugged me,  but I wasn't going to validate (validate the invalid) in front of the other lady. It wasn't about the money. 

This is like my ex telling me to buy a new car "because you can afford it" maybe embarrassed that I'm driving a 2009 Mazda? I almost feel like buying a 3-5 year old 5 series Beemer (a 5 series was her dream car, I read years later in a journal I found in a box she had left here) just to needle her. 

[JNChell]

I’ve heard that Cali is expensive, but  ! For lunch? I hope the chowder was good. I love clam chowder. Especially when the weather is cold. Anyway, I don’t know how to properly ask the next question because I was  :cursing:ish with my prior comments.

I was ok paying most of it,  but the other mother insisted on giving me $25. I said it was ok,  just  get  the tip. I gave her $5 back. She gave it back.  Then my ex said,  "no, it's ok," indicating to me to return the entire amount,  so I gave it back. The lady gave it back. I was ok,  but then my ex said,  "no,  it's ok,  he can afford it." So I gave it back and the lady insisted I keep it so I did.

Pragmatically asked, why did you allow your ex wife to control the money situation?

[Turkish]

Good question.  I didn't want to it to get weird  in front of another woman whom we hardly knew? I have trouble saying "no?"

Both but maybe more the latter.  I agreed to bring the kids to her god-daughter's quinceñera this afternoon.  Then I tried to back track.  And she asked why. "What else are you going to be doing?" I committed to showing up for an hour to say hi she's the kids eat dinner.  The girl is a sweetheart, but I've only seen her a few times in 6 years, the parents maybe twice.  I'll not know anyone else there though we used to go to their events.  I should have just said no.  If she'd asked a few weeks ago, I'd have let her have the kids for the afternoon. 

[JNChell]

Turkish, if the opportunity arose, would you reconcile?

[Turkish]

  No.  She already tried to come back 1.5 tears ago, so she could be with the kids more.  She's still working on her marriage besides. 

Also, I don't have the patience I once had.  She just texted me about the event in 2 hours.  "It's semi formal." S doesn't have a tie that fits. There's a store next to the venue but why do I have to arrange this?  I don't have a shirt that fits me either.  Too much.  I told her next time give more than a day's warning and she can have the kids for the day and if her friends question just to tell them that I'm an 

This last minute crap always pissed me off, often coupled with her stressing out due to circumstances she constructed.

[Turkish]

I guess I communicated my feelings.  She texted back and apologized for upsetting me.  I felt a little badly but didn't respond.  Kids and I stayed home and put up the Christmas tree. 

[JNChell]

It’s good to get the feelings out. Parenting can be a difficult pain in the butt within this dynamic. I was made to feel like a bad parent during the relationship and I’ve been made to feel like a bad parent after the relationship. Grounded, I know that it’s all a bunch of BS. Flustered, it’s the same old “questioning my reality” and that part is getting old. I’m a good parent. She’s not around to see it anyway. She wants me to be a bad parent and there’s a lot of projection going on there. Dude, they will poke and poke and poke some more. They have the perfect vehicle to do this. Our kids.

I hope you and your youngsters had a nice time putting the tree up. My Son turned 4 today, but I won’t get to see him until Tuesday. I sent him a card in the mail. I hope his mom reads it to him. I’m anxious to give him his presents. This is hard stuff, Turk. All will turn out well.

[Clearmind]

Even under the most amicable of relationship break ups it’s unlikely that ex’s would exchange a “how was your trip” message.  It’s also common practice when relationships break up for one or both parties to want to hang onto an ounce of the ‘old life’ you once had because we are not ready to let it all go. Having children together binds you in some form – I guess what we need to figure out is how we can compartmentalise us being a parent to our kids (and co-parenting successfully) and what a relationship with our ex’s looks like.
 
Boundaries come to mind. Since your ex may well be boundary-less it’s up to us (you) to determine what boundaries are necessary to make it work and to make it a healthy space for you and your kids.
 
Your reply by text " tonight, why?" is inviting a conversation – it’s possible a statement would suffice. Boundaries over text are can be very loose.
 
Another boundary might be that you can exchange pleasantries at an event you are both at however have an exit line if it becomes too personal.
 
“I really need too make friends locally” & “It's pathetic that I even want to engage this” – correct me but maybe work on your self-worth Turkish.
 
Trust that you will not get the answers you are seeking from your ex. Your ex will only reconfirm what you are already feeling which is an addictive cycle

[Turkish]

Even under the most amicable of relationship break ups it’s unlikely that ex’s would exchange a “how was your trip” message.  
 
Your reply by text " tonight, why?" is inviting a conversation – it’s possible a statement would suffice. Boundaries over text are can be very loose.

You're right.  I could have dropped the "why?" Or not answered. She's shared itineries with me,  but that's been when she's flown with the kids.  I would do the same.  In retrospect,  I was annoyed (I had previously told her when I was returning). Her anxiety and my need to step into it (respond) got me there. 
 

“I really need too make friends locally” & “It's pathetic that I even want to engage this” – correct me but maybe work on your self-worth Turkish.

No, I think that you got me on that point. 
 

Trust that you will not get the answers you are seeking from your ex. Your ex will only reconfirm what you are already feeling which is an addictive cycle

12 more years of regular contact... .I need to do better. 

What I do think is that she cares about me more than I do her.  Maybe it's validating to me,  though it shouldn't be. 

I showed up at her parents' house last night to get the kids homemade tamales.  My ex showed up after we were there 45 mins. I thought it rude to grab and go,  but I should have.  She reminded me to clean the tub.  She asked if were cleaned the house when S8 told her we put up the Christmas tree.  "Daddy swept."

She was making tea on the stove. Her dad came in to make himself tea. I guess he moved the pan wrongly.  Her words and tone to him were very condescending.  I didn't say anything.  She's previously said to me that she knows she can be like that and that it was a bad trait of hers in her current barely hanging on marriage (physically separated a year, but still in play). I didn't say anything.  That I even know this means I'm too much attached. Yet, kids... .

This weekend S8 posited that mommy was an overprotective parent.  He reasoned this due to a video he saw at school. I asked why he thought that.  "Because mommy doesn't want me to play rough with the kids at the dojo." She's made a big deal pot of this,  including almost getting into a fight with another parent.  D6 offered, "because mommy doesn't swing us as high as you do."

I'm not going to tell them what I went through with them as babies, nor tell them that she's clinically diagnosed with Anxiety. I'll validate them and move on.