The BPD-types: someone able to explain it to me so I really understand?

[misty_red]

So I read the book Understanding The Borderline Mother and I am familiar with the types of BPD. The waif, hermit, queen and witch. I tried to detect which type my exBPDgf is (by the way, my mother really is a waif… it felt so weird reading about just what my mother did… like it was written about her) but I am really not sure. I know that the types shouldn’t be seen seperated and that they might be mixed up but still I feel like everyone around here has an idea of which type their exBPD was. I really am struggling with detecting it. I know it shouldn’t matter in the end but I still want to understand all of it.

When I first read about the hermit I really thought my exBPDgf was one. At least she seemed so on the outside. But then I read about the witch and now I feel like my exBPDgf actually has many traits of a witch and only tries to hide that and is acting like a hermit. No, I don’t really mean she’s pretending to be a hermit, I still think it’S a mixture but sometimes I think she’s only withdrawing because she doesn’t want the world to see her witch-side. So my exBPDgf actúally is very passive-aggressive.

So is it possible that they sometimes hide behind another type to actually not make the others see their darker side?

I know, these types are only there to describe something and they are not written in stone but still I find it very difficult to seperate them from each other. I sometimes even feel that BPDs do have traits of every type. And maybe it is about that? And the types only describe the traits which are dominant?

I just want to get a grasp o fit that’s why I’m asking.

[Kwamina]

Hi misty_red

I have read this book too and am quite familiar with those four types you mention.

When I look at the people with BPD in my life I'd say they have a preferred or base state. My uBPD mother's preferred state is that of the 'Waif' while my uBPD sister's starting position usually is that of the 'Queen'. With both of them the Witch is just around the corner though. If needed my mother goes from Waif to Hermit to Queen to Witch, doesn't have to be in that order though and she can also go from Waif directly to Witch.

The four types are definitely strongly related and can indeed overlap. Like you hint at, the types describe a dominant state but it can also just be a dominant state at the moment. At another moment the person with BPD can behave more like one of the other types and at that moment, that is the dominant state. I find the four types very helpful in describing and identifying certain behavioral traits but it isn't necessarily so that a person only fits in one category. The types overlap and people can switch from one 'BPD-state' to another.

[whatathing]

Hi,

My uBPDexgf seemed to be the waif type dominantly, but also with strong hermit traits. She was also very passive agressive, like you describe yours. Tipically, waifs are high functioning, more covert pwBPDs, they don´t show many aggressive traits, although they feel rage deep down. They´re very  manipulative through appealing behaviours, victimizing and seeming helpless. They really seem like they´ve had bad luck in life, only after much examination we can understand that their suffering is related to their own responsibility. It seems that they fit the victim role, and that they need to be in troublesome interpersonal patterns. They´re much more quiet and subtle, but inside they´re just as complicated and resistant as any other BPD. I´ve read somewhere that given the opportunity of being long enough around us, they´ll some day display all the other BPD traits that they seem to disguise.

They´re tipically also more skinny, more prone to eating disorders, and more physically attractive. They also seem to display a "puritan" drive, a kind of desire to be pure and morally clean. Mine had a paradoxical sexuality: she wanted to avoid sex until she was certain about her love towards me, but couldn´t help in the heat of the moment and even took the initiative, then afterwards she felt guilty and avoided me.

Too complicated!

[HappyNihilist]

Dr. Theodore Millon identified four different subtypes of Borderline Personality Disorder, which I feel correspond well with Dr. Christine Ann Lawson's four "mother" subtypes.

The main distinction seems to be between inward-acting and outward-acting. While pwBPD are individuals will often show traits of all subtypes, they tend to "favor" one type.

"Inward-Acting"

(typically lower functioning)

Discouraged Borderline (Hermit, fearful) -- avoidant, melancholic, or dependent features. Pliant, submissive, humble; feels vulnerable or in constant jeopardy; feels hopeless, depressed, helpless, and powerless.

They tend to be clingy, go along with the crowd, and walk around feeling somber and dejected. Deep inside, they are often angry and disappointed with others. While their anger can explode outwards, they are much more likely to do harm to themselves by self-mutilating or even suicide.

Discouraged Borderlines operate in Abandoned Child mode, believing themselves unworthy of love and affection, and behaving accordingly.

Self-Destructive Borderline (Waif, vulnerable)-- melancholic or masochistic features. Inward turning; intropunitively angry; conforming, deferential, and ingratiating behaviors have deteriorated; increasingly high-strung and moody.

The Self-Destructive Borderline is marked by a constant sense of bitterness turned inward. Their levels of self-hatred can often reach monumental proportions, leading them into all types of conscious and unconscious self-destructive behaviors, ranging from poor healthcare and hygiene to reckless driving to performing humiliating sexual acts. They often suffer from depression as a co-occurring diagnosis and are often self-injurers. They "need" someone to save them, but ultimately refuse assistance because helplessness feels safe.

This type operates in an Abandoned Child mode. Since he or she does not feel loved, he or she reacts in self-destructive ways in an attempt to feel something instead of nothing.

"Outward-Acting"

(typically higher functioning)

Petulant Borderline (Queen, controlling) -- negativistic features. Impatient, restless, stubborn, defiant, sullen, pessimistic, resentful; easily slighted and quickly disillusioned.

The Petulant Borderline is torn between relying upon people and at the same time keeping their distance for fear of disappointment. They vacillate between feelings of unworthiness and anger. This anger can be quite explosive.

The Petulant Borderline operates in an Angry Child mode.  He or she is angry and will hurt friends and family as a result. He or she often does not recognize the anger -- the world is the problem, not them.

Impulsive Borderline (Witch, sadistic) -- histrionic or antisocial features. Capricious, superficial, flighty, distractable, seductive; fearing loss, becomes agitated, gloomy, and irritable.

The Impulsive Borderline tends to be flirtatious, captivating, charismatic, and elusive. They are highly energetic thrill-seekers who are easily bored and seem to have it never ending appetite for attention and excitement. They will often act without thinking, and the result is chaos for everyone involved. This type is in constant conflict with society. Bouts of violence are not uncommon. This type may have antisocial personality disorder as a co-occurring diagnosis.

The Impulsive Borderline is operating in Abandoned Child mode (pleas for attention), as well as Angry Child mode. The Angry Child believes that other people deserve to be punished for the borderline's pain, and behaves accordingly.

(info from Psychology Today, Healthy Place, and Theodore Millon)

[Hawk Ridge]

Mine was also a high functioning waif, presenting as a put together successful professional in front of others, a victim in front of extended family, and either non-functioning anorexic or a scathing silent treatment oriented perfectionist toward me.  The dichotomy was crazy making thus was unable to get support from friends and family she isolated me from.  

[Pingo]

Misty_Red, I'm wondering if maybe it's less important to figure out the exact types of your parent/ex and more important to see how they were similar to each other.  There is symbolism behind the similarities.  This is what Freud refers to as 'transference'.

Both my mother and my exh are queen/hermit most of the time.  The waif comes out too and in my mother, this is her hypochondria (at least that's how I've interpreted it).  They both love to be the victim, they both withdraw from society, they both want total control of their environments and others and they both love to punish those who defy them, usually with the ST.

This realisation that I had married my mother was shocking to say the least.  But it has really helped me understand why I was in the marriage in the first place and I can see the value in the marriage as it applies to my being able to process very difficult memories and hurts from my mother.  This has been truly the most healing (and hellish) year of my life. 

[Elpis]

This is a fascinating thread--

I never really spent much time figuring out what my uBPDh is, but control is definitely a huge part of it, and playing the victim is huge. He's quite high-functioning, really smart and great in his profession, but he reacts to things as if he is the victim. All of life has conspired against him to make it hard, and now that I have left I am one of those people making it hard because he has "paid my way" for all these past 38 years that I was taking care of him, our kids, our house, doing foster care, being a stand in mom for friends of our kids... .

I had thought he certainly went the way of the queen with me, can be quite the witch when he's around others, being flirtatious and charismatic (what I've called his being "charming." And when I have failed him by not playing along in his Game of Life he's been a waif.

I would agree with Pingo though that it isn't as important to Name the BPD (sounds like a new and interesting game! ) as it is to see the similarities, the correlations, to your childhood relationships. To me it looks like I picked a couple of difficult friends and a difficult husband because I hadn't succeeded in making my uNPD mother see the light so maybe I could be the light for my husband and for these friends and perhaps make the outcome better than it was with my mother. Hmm.

The healthier I get the more careful I am with those friends, and the more neutral i'm able to be with my uBPDh. He still has quite the reach even with me out of the house since mid Feb, he texts a lot of nonsense and I will talk to one of my adult children and be able to see immediately that they've been talking with him as his nonsense will trickle from their mouths.

He was quite lovely and charming when we dated.

[Panda39]

I see my SO's uBPDex as a queen first... .it's all about her... .she's a bully.  When bullying and pressure don't work the fall back place is the waif... .I'm a victim... .help me (do what I want)... .

But she is capable of playing all the parts queen, waif, hermit, witch... .whatever gets her what she wants.

[Infern0]

Mine was a mixture of hermit and waif.

At the start when I met her and she had no supply she was certainly a hermit type,  very low confidence,  a pitiful looking creature if I am honest.

Once we got together and she began to drain me of narcissistic and emotional supply she "evolved" into waif mode. 

Once she established a secondary source of supply she began to show traits of the outwardly acting borderlines.

So although I think they have a base type they seem to change based on their circumstances,  if the inward acting ones get enough supply that they get some confidence they can start to shift into the outward acting types

[Gaslit]

This is worth a read. After all I have read, it is the best thing I have ever read as it applies to the girl I knew. If you have ever wondered if she/he is this or that or this or what, this nailed it for me. And explained a lot.

www.therawness.com/my-cluster-b-philosophy/

[hurting300]

Mine is a waif and can't keep a job. Is that high functionality

[Blimblam]

Sounds pretty low functioning. Hermits and waifs are generally considered lower functioning becuase they hold in their dysregulation.  Personally I think it comes down to how OCD they are.  The more OCD they are the more they will ruminate about a negative thought letting it consume them and torture them.  The queen and witch subtypes have higher degrees of Histrionic and Narcisissm with a Capitol N. Meaning they have more of an idealized false self.  While the hermit or waif is more like a phantom becoming what we desire them to be.

[whatathing]

Hi,

My uBPDexgf seemed to be the waif type dominantly, but also with strong hermit traits. She was also very passive agressive, like you describe yours. Tipically, waifs are high functioning, more covert pwBPDs, they don´t show many aggressive traits, although they feel rage deep down. They´re very  manipulative through appealing behaviours, victimizing and seeming helpless. They really seem like they´ve had bad luck in life, only after much examination we can understand that their suffering is related to their own responsibility. It seems that they fit the victim role, and that they need to be in troublesome interpersonal patterns. They´re much more quiet and subtle, but inside they´re just as complicated and resistant as any other BPD. I´ve read somewhere that given the opportunity of being long enough around us, they´ll some day display all the other BPD traits that they seem to disguise.

They´re tipically also more skinny, more prone to eating disorders, and more physically attractive. They also seem to display a "puritan" drive, a kind of desire to be pure and morally clean. Mine had a paradoxical sexuality: she wanted to avoid sex until she was certain about her love towards me, but couldn´t help in the heat of the moment and even took the initiative, then afterwards she felt guilty and avoided me.

Too complicated!

mine is a waif and can't keep a job. Is that high functionality

Sounds pretty low functioning. Hermits and waifs are generally considered lower functioning becuase they hold in their dysregulation.  Personally I think it comes down to how OCD they are.  The more OCD they are the more they will ruminate about a negative thought letting it consume them and torture them.  The queen and witch subtypes have higher degrees of Histrionic and Narcisissm with a Capitol N. Meaning they have more of an idealized false self.  While the hermit or waif is more like a phantom becoming what we desire them to be.

Very well put... .! Sorry, the high functioning part in what I said seems to be inadequate. Mine is incapable of holding a job, too. But what I meant is that she´s very intelligent, intelectual, and competent at whatever she´s able to maintain and pursuit. But I see that that´s not equal to high functioning. Maybe it has more to do with her OCD, as you said, it makes total sense.

[PaintedBlack28]

They also seem to display a "puritan" drive, a kind of desire to be pure and morally clean. Mine had a paradoxical sexuality: she wanted to avoid sex until she was certain about her love towards me, but couldn´t help in the heat of the moment and even took the initiative, then afterwards she felt guilty and avoided me.

Man, I can relate to this, word by word. It sent a chill down my spine. 

[Brazil]

Inferno as you just wrote;

"Once we got together and she began to drain me of narcissistic and emotional supply she "evolved" into waif mode.  

Once she established a secondary source of supply she began to show traits of the outwardly acting borderlines."



Mine kind of "evolved" too, as you said. When I´ve met her, she had one profile, during our relationship she had another one and now close friends say that she evolved to a third one.

Best

B.

[Blimblam]

Mine was a mixture of hermit and waif.

At the start when I met her and she had no supply she was certainly a hermit type,  very low confidence,  a pitiful looking creature if I am honest.

Once we got together and she began to drain me of narcissistic and emotional supply she "evolved" into waif mode. 

Once she established a secondary source of supply she began to show traits of the outwardly acting borderlines.

So although I think they have a base type they seem to change based on their circumstances,  if the inward acting ones get enough supply that they get some confidence they can start to shift into the outward acting types

I experienced the same thing. There's a few ways to look at this though.

I know my ex had the disorder triggered so she no longer trusted me. She then went to enabling friends telling them she's not so sure about

Me anymore picking and choosing my imperfections or momentary circumstance to complain about me to friends. My ex goes from uncertainty and self doubt to being convinced by friends that indeed I am the problem and enable and plant in her head ideas about me to hold me in contempt.  Then it builds like a snowball as she tries to elicit validation from others.

It comes down again to why we didn't nip it in the butt or walk?

[peiper]

Mine exhibited every one of these at different times. That's one one the things that made it hard to understand,  the game was always changing. My exBPDw is very high functioning in work and interactions with her family. Though one thing that always struck me strange is she had no real friends, just her family.  And usually wanted to hang out with her young nieces and nephews. Maybe there was a safety factor in mainly interacting with young children for her.