Who will show up on the trip? Jekyll or Hyde?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

BPDh & I are taking our first joint vacation in 3 1/2 years. It's been so long partially bc of his hectic work schedule, but mostly bc I've been too nervous to plan anything for two reasons:

1) Who will show up on the trip? Jekyll or Hyde?
I know I have no control over which state he will be in during the trip, but bc we are in a fairly good place right now, I feel he may be "due" to dysregulate come vacation time and possibly even sabotage the vacation. I don't want to have to walk on eggshells for the next 3 weeks to help keep him in a white phase. Wondering what I can do on my part to keep things stable and also ease my own anxiety about the possibility of him splitting while we are away.

2) We will be in a situation where if things go south, there will be little opportunity for either of us to take a time out.
We will be in the car for more than 20 hours (10 down, 10 back). Also for the first few days, we will be staying with a relative. The last part of the trip will be 3 days in a hotel, and then a long drive home. If a conflict arises, and he escalates, neither of us will have anywhere to temporarily retreat to. I'm somewhat used to this being the case at home, since I'm disabled and sometimes can't leave our apartment for a time out, but I've adapted to this by moving to a different room, or asking him to leave for a brief walk or drive so we can have a time out. Using headphones wouldn't be an option, bc sometimes this creates further escalation on his part, as this causes him to feel shut-out and abandoned. So, I'm looking for ideas for alternative solutions to pull out of my pocket just in case.

Thanks for any suggestions!

[bananas2]

BPDh & I are taking our first joint vacation in 3 1/2 years. It's been so long partially bc of his hectic work schedule, but mostly bc I've been too nervous to plan anything for two reasons:

1) Who will show up on the trip? Jekyll or Hyde?
I know I have no control over which state he will be in during the trip, but bc we are in a fairly good place right now, I feel he may be "due" to dysregulate come vacation time and possibly even sabotage the vacation. I don't want to have to walk on eggshells for the next 3 weeks to help keep him in a white phase. Wondering what I can do on my part to keep things stable and also ease my own anxiety about the possibility of him splitting while we are away.

2) We will be in a situation where if things go south, there will be little opportunity for either of us to take a time out.
We will be in the car for more than 20 hours (10 down, 10 back). Also for the first few days, we will be staying with a relative. The last part of the trip will be 3 days in a hotel, and then a long drive home. If a conflict arises, and he escalates, neither of us will have anywhere to temporarily retreat to. I'm somewhat used to this being the case at home, since I'm disabled and sometimes can't leave our apartment for a time out, but I've adapted to this by moving to a different room, or asking him to leave for a brief walk or drive so we can have a time out. Using headphones wouldn't be an option, bc sometimes this creates further escalation on his part, as this causes him to feel shut-out and abandoned. So, I'm looking for ideas for alternative solutions to pull out of my pocket just in case.

Thanks for any suggestions!

[Tattered Heart]

Good job on starting to plan early. Because even the time building up to the trip can create a lot of stress for someone with BPD. Plus it sounds like a strenuous trip, lots of travel, lots of different people, lots of things out of routine. There are 2 types of stress: postive stress (eustress) and negative stress (distress). Regardless of what type of stress it is, both have the exact same reaction on the body and mind.

How do you think it would go if you just did a check in with him a couple times before working up to the trip? "I'm really excited about our trip, but I"m also feeling a little overwhelmed and stressed about preparing for the trip, how are you feeling about it?" This could give him some permission to share how he feels before it gets to him having to explode his feelings out. 

I think you know a lot of the skills. I'm going to give you a couple scenarios. Would you share with us what you could say in these scenario? What do you think he is feeling in each of these scenarios?

Scenario 1:
H has been driving for 4 hours. He is starting to get a little achy. Traffic is heavy. He is tired. He is starting to complain?

Scenario 2:
You get to your relatives house. The relative accidentally says something to hurt his feelings. When you get into your room, he starts to get worked up over what the relative said.

Scenario 3:
The hotel you are staying in has a lumpy bed. It's been 2 days and he isn't sleeping well and is starting to get grumpy.

[bananas2]

Thanks TH for the support & for always putting out there those tough scenarios that make us dig deep & think.

Scenario 1:
H has been driving for 4 hours. He is starting to get a little achy. Traffic is heavy. He is tired. He is starting to complain?

I can offer to take the wheel for awhile. If not physically able (sitting for long periods is difficult on my body), I can suggest we pull over, get a bite to eat & have some coffee (with cream  ).

Scenario 2:
You get to your relatives house. The relative accidentally says something to hurt his feelings. When you get into your room, he starts to get worked up over what the relative said.

N/A. Won't happen. We are staying with his D30, son-in-law (who rarely speaks), and toddler grandson. Ever since BPDh reconnected with her a few years ago (due to my coaxing), she can do NO wrong. She has been in psych ward twice in last 2 years and although has called him screaming insults (some justified) at him from hospital in psychotic state, she, unlike me, is still completely perfect in his eyes. Well, this seems like a topic for a whole other post.

Scenario 3:
The hotel you are staying in has a lumpy bed. It's been 2 days and he isn't sleeping well and is starting to get grumpy.

Total possibility. He was recently diagnosed with sleep apnea & just starting to wear a CPAP mask, which is difficult to adjust to. His work is also highly physically demanding, so lots of aches & pains. I think here is the time to pose a question to him: "What can I do to help you feel better? Message? More pillows?"

So far, this is all about meeting his needs. What can I do to get mine met? He is great at accommodating my physical needs, but completely & utterly neglectful of any of my emotional needs.

[Radcliff]

So far, this is all about meeting his needs. What can I do to get mine met? He is great at accommodating my physical needs, but completely & utterly neglectful of any of my emotional needs.

TH, nice scenarios!  I'll have to ask you to make some up for our next adventure!

bananas2, can you tell us about the emotional needs he is not meeting?  (And no fair saying "All of them"   What emotional needs might you have on the trip that he might not meet?  I have a crazy idea, may be a bad one.  Can you morph one of your emotional needs into an apparent physical need that he might be more trained to meet?  For example, if you need him to express some caring for you and think beyond his own needs, could you say that your lower back is in pain from sitting in the car and get him to give you a back rub?  That is a total shot in the dark, sorry if it misses the mark!

If your husband threatens to sabotage the trip, I'm thinking the fact that the first stop is at his daughter's might be handy in keeping him from pulling out of the trip.  Perhaps you can occasionally mention that it will be nice for both of you to see her soon?

When was the last time you drove 10 hours with your H?  :)o you know what works and what the pitfalls are?  For example when my wife and I drive on a long trip, she often will have trouble making up her mind where to stop for food, and despite my encouragement will still be waffling when we hit a 90 mile stretch with no restaurants!  That makes Wentworth very hangry   I prepare now by looking at the route and we talk before hand about where to stop.  What can you do to make the long car ride easier?  Plan several stops?  A long lunch somewhere?  10 hours is a loong time to be in a car.  Speaking of your needs, that seems like it'd be rough.  Are there any mid-trip destinations where you could have a long meal, shop, etc.?  Of course, that could be tough if H is of the "drive straight through" mentality.

For the hotel, take a walk around to familiarize yourself with it as soon as you get there.  Find the most attractive spot for you to retreat to where you could read a book or something if you need space (and don't forget to pack a book).  Possibly the lobby, breakfast room, bar, exercise room, etc.  It may not be perfect, but if you've picked it before hand as your "go to" spot, you'll likely feel more in control and less upset than if you just flee from the room and have to find a place in the moment.

Wentworth

[isilme]

I have to admit I was terrified planning a destination elopement with H, who has never flown before.

He hates ALL travel, even short day trips to the larger city an hour away.  It's a big production to lock up the house, take care of pets, and I keep track of the car, tires, gas, whatnot.  Longer trips overnight, there's a good chance he will dysregulate on the road.  H HAS improved.  He made it through the flights to and from the wedding and did VERY well.  Also, last year after I'd been able to change up about half of my accounts with the correct name, I screwed up on our reservations for a trip and did not find out till we got 30 minutes from the hotel when a friend meeting us called to let us know.  Thank goodness they got our room held, but between the wrong name, using our home # as my contact, and being issued a new bank card after getting married, it was a mess.  He freaked out, but by the time we arrived accepted as best as possible that I could not do anything while driving a car, and we'd have to sort it out when we got there. 

Trips - I try to take care of all the planning.  He is not much help at all, other than eventually confirming dates.  I reserve rooms, set aside $, program GPS, print back up maps, see what food is nearby, do 75% of the driving, car maintenance or rental, clean house, pack my own stuff, take care of pets, it's a lot.  But he has shown he can't/won't do it, and I have to do triage with what I need done, what will make ME feel better to get done, and what he can be left to do - usually pack his own bag.  I am thinking of taking an extra day off for the next trip we're planning, next month, to allow me some more free time to get things squared away.  I have vacation saved up. 

Since learning H gets very angry when his sugar is low, I've packed like I have a toddler in tow, snacks, water, just in case.  Now, knowing he's full-on diabetic, I am planning to stach meds in my purse in case he mis-judges travel time.  Since I've bene better about getting him fed, his rages have been less frequient and usually less intense.

All I can say is being knowledgeable that taking your pwBPD out of a comfort zone is likely to trigger stress.  If you can pre-plan ways to mitigate that stress, it can help.

[bananas2]

bananas2, can you tell us about the emotional needs he is not meeting?  (And no fair saying "All of them" wink  What emotional needs might you have on the trip that he might not meet?

I have an emotional need to express my feelings of hurt without him getting angry at me for doing so. So if we are on the trip and he says something nasty to me, I need to be able to say "What you said hurt my feelings." Usually when I say that, he gets angry, starts yelling, and then blame-shifts. He'll frequently turn it around on me, saying "What about that time last week when you said _____? That hurt my feelings!"

I also have a need for trust. If he promises to not check his phone or text while he's driving on our trip, I need to trust that he will keep this promise. If he does check his phone, and I say to him that he promised not to, he gets mad and tells me to "chill." I've told him many times, as has our marriage counselor, and his T, that if he sincerely wants to win back my trust, that keeping all of his promises is critical and that breaking even the smallest ones is damaging. I'm trying to understand his thought process here. Why does he keep doing this when he knows how counter-productive it is?

Can you morph one of your emotional needs into an apparent physical need that he might be more trained to meet?  For example, if you need him to express some caring for you and think beyond his own needs, could you say that your lower back is in pain from sitting in the car and get him to give you a back rub?  That is a total shot in the dark, sorry if it misses the mark!

I'm not sure how I would work this with the examples I gave above. Also, I have to think if this is something I would want to do. Is it healthy to have him continue to think he is only meeting my physical needs? I don't know.

When was the last time you drove 10 hours with your H?  Do you know what works and what the pitfalls are?

We only had one prior trip of this length. It was right after we got married and we were both in the "adoration" phase, so there were no pitfalls.

I do like the idea of finding a "go-to" place in the hotel where I can retreat to if need be. I will do some recon when we arrive so I can be prepared. I hope it won't be necessary.

[Radcliff]

I have an emotional need to express my feelings of hurt without him getting angry at me for doing so. So if we are on the trip and he says something nasty to me, I need to be able to say "What you said hurt my feelings." Usually when I say that, he gets angry, starts yelling, and then blame-shifts. He'll frequently turn it around on me, saying "What about that time last week when you said _____? That hurt my feelings!"

This is so upsetting when we tell our pwBPD that they have hurt us and their response hurts us more!  If a validating response to your feelings is not in his repertoire, he will not likely acquire the capability on your trip.  Are you able to make any progress on this topic talking about it in calm times, when your feelings have not been hurt, and he's less likely to be defensive?

I also have a need for trust. If he promises to not check his phone or text while he's driving on our trip, I need to trust that he will keep this promise. If he does check his phone, and I say to him that he promised not to, he gets mad and tells me to "chill." I've told him many times, as has our marriage counselor, and his T, that if he sincerely wants to win back my trust, that keeping all of his promises is critical and that breaking even the smallest ones is damaging. I'm trying to understand his thought process here. Why does he keep doing this when he knows how counter-productive it is?

This is a tough one.  Your need totally makes sense, especially in the context of rebuilding lost trust.  I cannot believe that I haven't thought to mention it to you yet, but there is a book, "What Makes Love Last?: How to Build Trust and Avoid Betrayal" by John Gottman that I think would speak to you on the trust issues.  It came to mind because he specifically talks about keeping commitments.  How are you approaching it when you call him on missing a commitment?  It seems like a delicate endeavor.  Staying true to yourself, yet avoiding things like what Gottman calls a "hard start" in one of his other books, seems tough.  How do lead off in those conversations?

I'm not sure how I would work [exchanging physical for emotional needs] with the examples I gave above. Also, I have to think if this is something I would want to do. Is it healthy to have him continue to think he is only meeting my physical needs? I don't know.

Bad idea.  Forget I asked.  For me, physical touch can help meet the emotional need for closeness and acceptance, but that's a very narrow area.  Here, the idea was a shot from the hip that missed the mark, sorry

WW

[bananas2]

Thanks, Wentworth for asking great questions and for the book recommendation. Side note: Your PM is still down as of today. Still getting "inbox full" error.

Are you able to make any progress on this topic talking about it in calm times, when your feelings have not been hurt, and he's less likely to be defensive?

This is something I need to work on - trying to remember to address this topic during calm times. I've brought it up in MC and it's an issue that we will continue to address.

How do lead off in those conversations?

I feel I've very recently done some improving in this area. I used to be pretty snarky about it: "Thought you promised not to check your phone when you're driving." I'm learning to avoid the word "promise" now, as that seems to trigger him. I also phrase it differently now and frame it as a need, so he can feel like he's helping me: "(Pet name I use for him), please don't check your phone while you're driving. I'd feel less nervous if you put your phone down. Thank you."
I'm thinking I can maybe ask him during calmer times what his thought process is when he does this, so I can better understand and further tailor my approach.