I desperately need help

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Lets just say I do want to detach from her.  Although I admit I lack the strength at the moment do I just stop? I just go NC? I mean we've just spent the last two weeks catching up and rebuilding our lines of communication. We have been through this cycle like 5 times already. She's going to start to think I'm the crazy one!

To answer the question directly (and in my opinion) - yes.  If you want to detach then going NC is what you should do.  There are a lot of great readings out there (and like the ones linked on the right hand side of the page)... . but, as my therapist had suggested (which I finally listened and followed) - give yourself some distance to gain a clearer perspective.

No one would think you are crazy for doing something that is actually healthy and sane for yourself.

It is difficult to see the forest when you are surrounded by the trees.

But what I find even more interesting is you say you have been through the cycle 5 times already.  What give you a thought that if you cycle to number 6 that it would be any different?

The true definitaion of insane is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.  This is not to say, by any means, that you (or her) are insane.  But you are caught up in a dance, albeit destructive, and you want to stay on the dance floor.  Which is fine - if that is your choice.  But just know that that is what is going to happen.

If you are fine with it, then you are fine with it.  No one here is going to suggest to you to do anything different than you want to do.  But I will say this, mostly all of us have been exactly where you are - and it isn't a great spot to be in (so I can definitely feel you pains).

Just know that there is a better, calmer, stable, happier way to be... . if you chose it.

[woodsposse]

Lets just say I do want to detach from her.  Although I admit I lack the strength at the moment do I just stop? I just go NC? I mean we've just spent the last two weeks catching up and rebuilding our lines of communication. We have been through this cycle like 5 times already. She's going to start to think I'm the crazy one!

To answer the question directly (and in my opinion) - yes.  If you want to detach then going NC is what you should do.  There are a lot of great readings out there (and like the ones linked on the right hand side of the page)... . but, as my therapist had suggested (which I finally listened and followed) - give yourself some distance to gain a clearer perspective.

No one would think you are crazy for doing something that is actually healthy and sane for yourself.

It is difficult to see the forest when you are surrounded by the trees.

But what I find even more interesting is you say you have been through the cycle 5 times already.  What give you a thought that if you cycle to number 6 that it would be any different?

The true definitaion of insane is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.  This is not to say, by any means, that you (or her) are insane.  But you are caught up in a dance, albeit destructive, and you want to stay on the dance floor.  Which is fine - if that is your choice.  But just know that that is what is going to happen.

If you are fine with it, then you are fine with it.  No one here is going to suggest to you to do anything different than you want to do.  But I will say this, mostly all of us have been exactly where you are - and it isn't a great spot to be in (so I can definitely feel you pains).

Just know that there is a better, calmer, stable, happier way to be... . if you chose it.

[zenwexler]

Thanks for your continuous feedback woods posse. My therapist told me that she is incapable of being in a loving mutual relationship and that she is extremely manipulative.  He pretty much yelled at me to just pull the plug and leave. He told me that it's time to be mature and realize that I was involved with someone who literally is incapable of being in a healthy relationship. Like I mentioned before it's just a tough pill to swallow. I'm a fighter. I fight for things I want and quitting is not something that comes easy for me. No matter what it is. I think that is why it's so hard for me to let this go. And you're right. It is the same song and dance every time. I say we can't be friends. I say sweet things like i'm sorry it has to be this way, I love you, I hope for the best for you, blah blah blah, she literally says nothing except like ok, see ya later. We don't talk, she'll eventually text me. i'll ignore her, then she'll text me again and I cave in. I've mentioned earlier I stick around because her actions tell me she still cares about me, that she still wants me in her life, her words say just friends, but her actions scream don't leave me! So yes, this has by far been one of the worst experiences of my life. I'm grateful it happened because i know my next relationship, either with her or someone new will benefit from all of the lessons I have learned. But right now I can't help but feel like I'm stranded in the middle of the ocean.

[woodsposse]

Do me a favor.  Just keep repeating this line you just wrote... . tell me when it makes sense:



I stick around because her actions tell me she still cares about me,

[zenwexler]

I know what you're saying,  I just mean that her actions say i still care about you and don't want you to leave. Yes they are surrounded by her talking down to me, being abusive and passive aggressive, but none the less we broke a while ago and she has not let me go. And I fully admit I have not let her go either.

[woodsposse]

I hear what you are saying - and I know, at some level, you hear what I'm saying.  Maybe one day it will click in to it's fullest - but for now, just know you are not alone.

It is a very rough spot to be in.  Knowing that someone treats you like they don't care - and telling yourself that they way they treat you is that they care.

It certainly is crazy making behavior.  The more I learn about the disorder, the more I concentrate my sharing here with those who are being hurt and displaced by it.  It saddens me the effect it has on you (and had on me very strong for so long).

For me... . I'm glad I detached.  Yes, it was very very difficult to do (after almost 20 years with her... . that's a long long time).  But, once I did I realized the pure insanity I was in and allowed myself to be in. 

Then it hit me like a ton of bricks (well, a ton of feathers... . but that's a different story).  I finally heard what people here on the this board were saying to me.  I finally heard what my therapist was saying to me... . and I finally looked at myself.

It was no longer about her. 

What was it in me that I was getting out of such a r/s?  I had to be getting something out off it.  I mean, healthy people don't typically stick arorund for such abuse.  But I did - and called it normal.  The journey I went on to find that answer lead me to the peace I have today.

Now it isn't a matter of being NC.  It is a matter of "Why would I want to communicate with her?" 

But that was my journey.

And the light at the end of the tunnel wasn't another training heading towards me.  It was the peace I was looking for.

So maybe you can focus a little of your energy on you.  I'm sure wherever it takes you... . you will be there when you get there.  And I truly hope whever that is... . you will be at peace.

[zenwexler]

I mean i have it in my head that maybe she's changing. She moved to new york, she's going to like yoga and church. I can't help but think maybe she's more stable. But I don't know. Again. I guess she can't be because if she was then she would probably be nicer to me and probably wouldn't be texting me. This is all just so confusing. It's like I rather her be mean and nasty because it proves she's just not a nice person.

[zenwexler]

Like right now she's being all sweet and playful. It just gets in my head so much.

[woodsposse]

Like right now she's being all sweet and playful. It just gets in my head so much.

Please understand.  She is who she is.  What she has shown you is exactly who she is.  There is no changing it (not without deep and long therapy).  So, just because you think you see something different - you don't.

Again... . I'm tall because I'm tall.  There is no changing that.

THis is  not to say that you can't work with tools to have a better relationship - but if you hoping for a change... . after how many go arounds?  Forget about it.  Not gonna happen.

I'd rather see you spend some time to focus on you.  This is about you.

Let me repeat this for you... . this is about you.

Be happy.  And your happiness starts and ends with you.

(Just keepin it real)   

[zenwexler]

I know I've thanked you a ton already but I am appreciative of your continuous feedback woods posse. So even though right now she's being all happy and fun and playful it's all a front? It's all temporary? There really is no having a happy life with this girl? Even on the staying board people are telling me to leave her behind.

[woodsposse]

Well, I won't go so far as to tell you to leave - and I equally won't go so far as to say it is a front.

What I will say is... . and you have to take a step backwards to view the "big picture" when I state it... . ready... .

What you already know of her is what and who she is.

I'll say it again.

What you already know of her - the way she is in a relationship (with you in particular) is who she is.

I don't know what you think is going to or can change... . there is nothing to change.  It is who and what she is.

Her being happy and fun and playful is who she is just as when she is raging, lying, cheating, demeaning, invalidating and whatever else you have gone through with her.

she has already shown you time and time again exactly who she is.  What don't you see?

Now... . if and when you can wrap your head around that -- then, and only then can you see exactly where you are and exactly who you are with.

If you are willing to "take the good with the bad"... . more power to you.  But if you are expecting her to change into something she isn't... . well... . that's where this board comes into play so we can maybe help you focus your energy and attention on... . (say it with me)... . YOU!   

[zenwexler]

I guess I just believe that I can now be a better person in our relationship. That I can make things easier, manage and minimize her chaos. And the fact that she appears to be happy and pleasant gives me that feeling that maybe it is possible. And I do focus on myself. And I admit she didn't add much to my life. And she wasn't very supportive and loving. I just keep thinking maybe things will be different. We both met under very stressful situations. I'm thinking maybe life will be better with her this time around. But I hear you. Loud and clear. Still hard to digest and fully internalize.

[woodsposse]

I totally understand how difficult it is.

But at the end of the day - even if you re-read the last post you just wrote... . you are bouncing all over the place.  Trust me, I have been there. We all have been there.

Whatever decisions you make in your life, you should be at a calm, peaceful place in which to do it.

You can not fix anyone.

You can not fix a relationship.

Maybe you can bring a better you to where ever you go... . but she is who she is.

Not sure how much plainer I can make it for you.

She... . is... . not... . going... . to... . change.   Ever.

You can't help her change.  And... . the only way she will "change" is if she wants to (and with a lot of professional help).

So... . we keep coming back to you my friend.  This is about you.  It has always been about you.

Even when your r/s started... . it was about you.  THrough all the ups and downs and recycles and pain... . it was about you.

So... . make it about you now.

If you want the crazy making behaviors and pain and anguish and devaluing and lying and cheating... . by all means, stay.

Because if you "get back with her"... . that is what you will get. 

Just keeping it realz!   

[zenwexler]

Will I ever just fully accept the fact that I can never truly be happy with this girl and just move on with my life? And that obviously she hasn't changed that much considering her recent behavior. It's like I'm refused to admit that she's incapable of having a healthy loving relationship. It's what my psychologist keeps trying to get me to admit and accept. But for some reason I refuse.

I do make it all about me. I blame myself. I say If only I did this, if only I did that. I make excuses for her. I convince myself that she's changed, happier, calmer, more pleasant, but again said this a thousand times, if she was she wouldn't be interacting with me the way she currently is. But instead I convince myself otherwise. I start to feel bad for her, knowing she doesn't do this on purpose. when I go no contact and she begs for my attention I feel like a father whose teaching his baby to self soothe. I think to myself, I know babe, I love and miss you too. I go to her, she stops crying and is like uhhh, I'm fine. I don't need you.  Again her actions scream to me DON'T LEAVE. YES I"M DATING SOMEONE ELSE BUT PLEASE DON"T LEAVE. I"M INCAPABLE OF ADMITTING HOW MUCH I ACTUALLY MISS AND CARE ABOUT YOU.

So again round and round I go. When she's mean and nasty, I'm sad, but I take comfort in it knowing she hasn't changed and is "crazy". When she's sweet and nice I go OH NO, maybe she has changed. I messed up, I made so many mistakes, she's the one that got away and freak out. It's exhausting. I truly want to get on with my life. I want to stop crying. I want to stop self-loathing. I used to be such a confident person until I met her. Now I question every step I take. Every sentence I speak. It's been a miserable existence.

I spend more energy trying to convince myself that I'm the one that did all the wrong's, that if I was a better person our relationship would have lasted. But deep down inside I know I did as much as I could, she never met me half way. I was always so exhausted. So fried. And I convince myself, things will be different, she'll meet me half way now, because now she's happier, calmer, sweeter, loving, and i'm a better person because I have read books on BPD, so I'll be able to manage better. Or I think  man, is she really happy with that guy? Is she any different? Is she trying harder?

But it's all lies. All lies I spend so much time trying to convince myself.

[woodsposse]

I totally understand what you are saying and where you are at. It isn't easy.

But what I mean about it being about you... . I mean - you without her.

Don't "make it" about you (did you do the best you could, could you have done better, so forth and so on)... . because that isn't about you.

What I mean is... . what is it that you need to let you see why this has you so tied in a knot.  What do you need to be happy.

I'm not as 'schooled' in the disorder or which tools/readings may be available for you (yet... . I'm getting there) - so all I can do is share with you what I know from where I was.

Bottom line is this.

If you make yourself available for her at this point you will be reeled back in but nothing will change and it will be worse for you.

You need to get to a point where you can focus on you.  Your healing.  Your understanding of why you would allow yourself to be in such an abusive relationship.  It obviously isn't because you are getting love and support.  But it is something.

For me... . the journey led me back to my FOO.  And I finally understood why I would stay in such relationships (and I was able to finally break the cycle and am much much happier now).

To be honest... . I don't even miss my ex.  I don't wish her ill and and don't want her to be sad... . but, I barely think about her and our r/s any longer because even if it were available to go back into that crazy environment I wouldn't because it was a crazy environment and I'm much more healthy than to voluntarily be abused.

Hopefully you can get there as well.  Because what you describe is abuse, plain and simple.  So it is up to you if you want to be abused and unhappy... . or focus on you and be happy.

[bungenstein]

Hi zenwexler,

I am in exactly the same position you are in.

I dumped my ex and she went on the rebound and has been shoving it down my throat ever since. I do believe I was the person she 'cared' about the most because I am the only person to ever leave her, and she tried the most ludicrous lies, and ridiculous tactics to get me to stay. Previously she has normally jumped from person to person because she gets bored very quickly, I know because I know some of the people she's dated.

It does seem to me that some people trigger them more than others. She fully admitted that she'd rather be with someone she wasn't into so much, because she wouldn't behave so crazily, she hated acting so crazily, and just wanted to be at ease, she tried to pull away from me a lot in the beginning but couldn't, she said she wished she'd never met me because I'd become an addiction that was bringing out the worst in her, and now she was stuck.

I had to trick her out of my house, she then tried to get back with me for another month, until she deliberately tried to track me down and crash a night out I was having, I told her to leave me alone and said I knew what she was doing.

She then went and got someone else immediately, someone who seems to be the person she was describing when we met, someone to fill the void, someone who won't trigger her so much, a placeholder for her pain, someone she doesn't want to be with but HAS to be with, like having a colostomy bag.

She has tried to meet up with me twice whilst being with this new person and I declined because I wasn't prepared to put him or I in that position, I said only if you are single will I consider it. Whilst also giving me the same I'm so happy, I'm so over you, the new guy is perfect, I never loved you, you are scum... . of course this is nonsense, otherwise she wouldn't be contacting me and trying to meet up, they have been going 3 1/2 months now, and only a few days ago she downloaded a picture of ME onto her phone from my website, who does that if they are happy with their new boyfriend?

The fact is the replacement, is out of neediness of filling that void, and a punishment towards me, I have been rejecting her for a long time now, even though I did love her, I wasn't prepared to have that kind of relationship. She is never going to leave him and then try again with me, because she assumes I don't care about her enough, and risking losing her replacement is just unthinkable, so she'll have to make do. What she wants is for me to guarantee I'm going to be back in a relationship with her first, and only then will she leave the replacement. Now whether her 'love' for me was real or not is another debate, but certainly from what I've seen I've been the only person she hasn't ditched and never once did she stop adoring me, she was abusive in ways to direct my attention towards her, and in her mind to make me love her more, and her rages were inexcusable, but her life was devoted to me and she did everything she could for me.

The problem is I too think, if I could just rid this demon from her life we'd be perfect together, but I can't. I know that if we got back together I would have to deny my real self and accept behaviour and a relationship that was totally against my outlook on life, I would have to carry on being embarrassed by her behaviour, having to feel like I am nurturing someone, and teach them everything about life, and walk on eggshells for the rest of my life, I won't ever have the connection I truly desire with someone who's brain is on Planet Zorb, I would have to carry on knowing this person won't ever be what I really want in a partner, I would have to sell myself short, and the only reason I would do this is out of fear that I couldn't do any better. I have to build my confidence back up and so do you because at the moment the only thing standing in the way of having someone you care about even more is ourselves, and I've always known this, but tried to deny it.

So do I believe she still 'adores' me? Yes

Will she still be abusive because of her fear? Yes

Will I ever have a healthy relationship with her? No

Do I still love her? I love her in same way she loves me, not in mature way.

And that's all there is to it, its a really s*** situation.

I take pride in that I had such an effect on her, and that I haven't dropped from her mind, and the moment in time that we had together was wonderful and heart breaking at the same time, that I've learnt so much from it, and I've become a much better person as a result, but the relationship is a tragedy, and always will be, and thats part of life, at least I can take creative inspiration from it as an artist and that in itself is invaluable to me, I didn't regret a second of it and she's built my character to end, whilst I look around my peers and see just how mundane their lives have become, now that I've gotten through this I can strive for the stars, and so should you!

[zenwexler]

Thank you all for all of your feedback. I sincerely mean that from the bottom of my heart. I'm going to be posting a new topic shortly. I think I'm starting to get it. That unfortunately no matter how much I wish and pray that having a happy and healthy relationship with her is virtually impossible. And the fact that I would even want one with her is equally an issue.

[zenwexler]

So after spending almost everyday on this amazing forum with you amazing people and months of counseling I'm willing to accept reality. I have been living in a fantasy world that my ex will change. That with moving to New York, having a few extra friends around her, some yoga and church she'd suddenly be the sweet loving and caring person.

Talking to you all and my therapist I realized that this just isn't the case. That not only during our relationship but equally afterwards she clearly demonstrated that she is highly manipulative, abusive, and incapable of love. It's a heartbreaking realization but true none the less. I kept rationalizing and making excuses for her behavior but its time for me to move on.

My therapist said you MUST recognize how sick this girl is. And recognize how sick you are to even want a relationship with her. That if I was in a better place I would have never been in a relationship with her in the first place.

He asked what my biggest fear was. I told him that she would change and be happier and a great person without me.

He replied that I'm afraid that that "apple" will one day ripen? And that I'll never find a another one? He called me out and said that's an irrational fear. I then asked him if he thought her "apple" would ever ripen. He was dead serious when he said this. He's a no bull ___ kind of a guy. He Said he thinks she is rotten to the core.

Which I admit does sadden me.  I'm starting  to recognize that she truly will never be a caring loving person. I know how hard it is to change. And unfortunately the average person in the world don't change casually without a lot of hardwork.

My therapist said that with BPD. It's virtually impossible to ever live a happy and healthy lifestyle.

It's funny. He made sense of all her actions. How she manipulated me, how she never answers my questions about why she won't let me go. how she breaks me down, tells me she doesn't want to be together but refuses to let me go and never leaves me alone. Wants to know about my love life. Not becAuse she cares. But because she wants to know if I'm still available. Before we broke up she told me she would love to break up date other people then get back together later in life. Of course later down the road she said she doesn't feel that way anymore. But again her actions prove otherwise. I know she loves me. I know she wants me in her life. And I know a part of her would like to come back to me in time.  And I know she struggles to let me go. Because if she wanted to. Or could. She would have long ago. Especially after moving and dAting.  And I take comfort in that. I truly do.  Her words say no love but her actions scream I CARE. I LOVE AND MISS YOU!

I used to have anxiety about that I wasn't good enough. That I wasn't strong enough. That all her other exes broke up with her. Why did she break up with me? I learned from her old roommate that she abused all her exes full force just like me. She told me that she thought it was awesome how I would actually take a stand to her. That I wouldn't back down. That her exes never did that.

It makes so much sense. She left because  I didn't put up with her crazy. I challenged her. Pushed her to see reality and grow. And she didn't like it. I also realized that I wanted to break up with her multiple times. She just always dooped me to stay.

i would have been the third bf to break up with her in 1.5 years. It makes so much sense. And she broke up with me because once upon a time I was stronger. Higher self esteem. Not an easy target. I take comfort in that as well

It's always natural to fear when an ex gets a new relationship she's going to be amazing and happy and healthy with them and get married. Again her actions towards me prove to not be the case. I used to worry. What if her next relationship lasts? I realized if it does that just means this "laid back" nice guy from Hawaii is just giving her whatever ever she wants. That he's just catering to her everyday needs. And lets be honest. There is a ton, and most likely she's not really meeting his needs. So again. In the low self esteem state I have currently i take comfort in that as well. That shes abusing this guy just as much as she did all her bfs. No matter how great he is. And that if he lasts. It's because he's waved the white flag while she goes for the throat. I'm sure one day when I'm stronger I'll feel bad for him. But again. I take comfort in knowing that she's kind of doomed. I fully admit that. But hey. Anything that helps me sleep at night I'll take it.

I used to beg her. Just be nice to me. Give me some sex. And I'll literally do anything for you. ANYTHING. She couldn't even do that. All I ever asked was for some love. But she's selfish. Narcissistic and self centered. Even when she described her new bf it was selfish. He balances out my nerves. He's what I need.  All very self centered needy statements.

So I know the journey ahead is tough. I feel strong right now but I know I'll feel low at times as well. I'm going to ATTEMPT to maintain a friendship.

She's lost. She's scared. She's alone. Even in a relationship. She's unhappy. She always will be. And I'm going to support her to the best of my abilities. I want to be a strong enough person where I can handle anything thrown my way. And who knows. Maybe when she realizes how sad and alone she truly is we can try again. But I know that if I stick to the right path, that even if she would want to. Id be strong enough and healthy enough to recognize that that would not lead to a happy and fulfilled life.

I still do wish the best for her. I want everyone to be happy and in love. I know I have my problems. We all do. And I don't say this lightly, or for a self esteem boost. But I am the most loving and caring person I know. I know that any girl would be lucky to team up with me in life. Because I truly am willing to do whatever it takes for the people in my life.

Life is hard. I'm not looking for a wife. A girl to take care of. A sex partner. I'm looking for a best friend. A teammate. An equal.   Not someone that I have to look after. Someone who I can team up with and tackle life TOGETHER.

In this moment things are so clear. She'll never be happy. She'll never be healthy. She'll never add to my life. Just take. And being with her will not aid in my pursuit of happiness. in fact. She can only take away from it.

I know she'll try and convince me otherwise. I know she'll try and let me know how happy and healthy she's doing. It's what she always does. Unfortunately  her whole life is and always will be smoke and mirrors. Breaks my heart. But I can go to sleep at night knowing that I tried my best. That things didn't workout between us because I demanded more. Not because I wasn't good enough or expected too much.

And to be honest that makes me smile. Healthy people are attracted to healthy people. And at first she dooped me. But I saw the red flags by the second date when she yelled at me. When I picked up an abusive partner brochure at the health center. It was my fault for getting sucked in and staying. But hey. It's what they do best. And to be honest she was the first girl I ever got close with.

I know through this whole experience I have grown so much. I learned from my mistakes. I learned what I want in a relationship and what I don't. It still breaks my heart and saddens me knowing that I can never have a happy and healthy relationship with her. And that she is all smoke and mirrors. And that even when she appears to be happy and grounded that its all a show. All lies she tells me and herself.

I appreciate everyone's honest and sincere feedback. I'm going to continue to post on here and help others as well as still receive help and support. I know  everyone on here will continue to support me and remind me that this girl I love  is truly sick and to pursue a relationship with her isn't wise or healthy by no means. And that unfortunately she's not going to change. Just reminders that I'll still need to hear from other people.

Thank you all for everything.

[woodsposse]

Awesome post! 

You make a lot of great points and I can see you are truly trying to get to a place of understanding for yourself.

I would like to challenge you on one point, however.

If I read it correctly, you still have it running around in your mind that you can still have some kind of relationship with her in so far as being "friends".

I'd like to challenge you to step back from that thought... . at least for now... . until you are friends with yourself (or at least, other healty people).  I'm not going to suggest cutting her out of your life entirely... . but you have to see it for what it is.

Even being friends, she will drain the life right out of you in ways you don't and can't even see at this moment.  If you allow yourself some time to readjust and get your equilibrium back, you may find that even having her around as a "friend" isn't what you want or need.

Or... . you may find that once you get back to a stable place, there may come a time where you can be in her presense (however that takes form... . in person, emails, texts, fb, etc) and find it is okay.

All that is to say... . I challenge you... . to do you!  I challenge you to be happy with you.  Because... . this is about you. It always has been and it always will be.

You got this, my friend.  You can do it! 

We are all here for you and in your corner.  Now... . go be happy!

[zenwexler]

As always thank you for your continuous support. And as always you're right! I mean I've already suffered plenty of negative consequences by maintaining a texting relationship with her. Its. funny because everyone in the staying board even said that with the tools you learn here its still impossible to have a successful relationship with them. And right now my friendship with her is brutal. She still comes at me. I validate EVERYTHING she says. I'm so kind positive and supportive of her. I never call her out or lose my cool. I stay super casual. What does she do? Tries to push my buttons even harder. Tries to keep poking me to see what reaction I give. Or she'll be frustrated that I'm being nice and understanding because it proves to her that I'm not this unworthy guy to her. Which throws her for a massive loop. The more I prove to her I'm white she just tries harder to paint me black. I mean your absolutely right. Even as friends she sucks me dry!

[Love Is Not Enough]

Even as friends she sucks me dry!

This has been a fascinating conversation. I had one small thing I would like to add from a guy on the Staying board.

I have made it as far as I have in my relationship with my uBPDgf because I love HER kids. You have made many comments about using all that you have learned to have another try. I have stayed and used the tools to improve my life greatly. My gf is doing DBT now and has not had a major dysregulation in 6 months. I am currently living the "dream" you want so badly. BUT... .

We rarely have sex.

I have zero intimacy with her because she is always afraid of my judgement (which I do not do anymore) or using whatever she tells me against her at some point. I also do not share much with her because she will use it against me.

She still accuses me all the time of cheating.

I do not trust her. Period.

I still feel like my connections with family and friends is hindered somewhat.

I am resentful of things that have happened and I am very lonely because I do not feel like I can really share my life with her. Things may get better as time goes on and continues with therapy. I really do not know. The point of all of this is that you will most likely never have a wonderful relationship with this woman you are stuck on. I just wanted to paint you a picture of what it looks like if "they get better".

Even if they improve they will continue to suck you dry if you allow them. Luckily I have chosen to be confident and strong so my gf can no longer do that. I enforce my boundaries and use the tools to maintain the peace.

Just something else for you to think about. I am not telling you to go NC, but I am sure you have read somewhere on here that they usually keep exes around for future recycles. Even my gf went to see an ex (who was supposedly a horrible person) after being broken up for 7 years! She never could give me a believable explanation. Consider giving yourself a break from her. I bet you will feel better as time goes on when you start doing things for YOURSELF. It is hard to see the forest when you are buried in a pit in the middle of it.

Just focus on yourself. Be strong. Good luck 

[Runningbare]

It has been fascinating, its the reason I just joined.

Ive been in the same boat as OP, ive recently ended the chaos again and she is going through the texting staying in touch thing at the moment, ready for another chance to take revenge and teach me another lesson, for not accepting her behaviour.

I was in quite a state earlier, but finding this has been very heartening, My thanks goes to all contributors. Its actually the alienation that has been hard for me, she works to keep everyone she knows segregated so that her webs of lies are easier to maintain. Not everyone has to bear the brunt of her dispicable acts and to try to explain to most would just make me look crazy. To many she is an absolute darling, But to those who have had her... . we have looked into the eyes of the devil herself.

[zenwexler]

You guys are so very right. I was talking to her the other day. She knows I'm road tripping out to California. She texted me saying I better not speed. I made the joke don't worry every time I do I'll think of you. She then responds by bringing up one time we were driving together in traffic and I got really stressed out and got angry. Like what? Really? She had to bring up that ONE time I lost my cool. She always wants to bring up times when I made mistakes. It's like she still tries to convince herself that I'm not good enough. I told her that I was really stressed out because she was leaving for home and I just wanted to spend time with her and my family. She was like yeah right. Don't play the innocent card.

A few days later she was texting me. She uses a noise machine to fall asleep. I took a picture of one in the hotel and sent it to her. She was like yeah. I'm going to get my new bf to start using one. Like again. Stil trying to flaunt her relationship in my face. She keeps asking questions about this girl she thinks I'm hooking up with. She asked if I liked her while we were dating. I told her no. She then asked for her last name. She jokingly told me so she can Facebook her and stalk her!

I know it was a joke but really? Come on. It's fascinating that she does things that are like I still have feelings for you I still have feelings for you. Then she vanishes for a while just to resurface suddenly.

I do appreciate the post about that even when it's good. It's really not that good

[woodsposse]

You guys are so very right. I was talking to her the other day. She knows I'm road tripping out to California. She texted me saying I better not speed. I made the joke don't worry every time I do I'll think of you. She then responds by bringing up one time we were driving together in traffic and I got really stressed out and got angry. Like what? Really? She had to bring up that ONE time I lost my cool. She always wants to bring up times when I made mistakes. It's like she still tries to convince herself that I'm not good enough. I told her that I was really stressed out because she was leaving for home and I just wanted to spend time with her and my family. She was like yeah right. Don't play the innocent card.

A few days later she was texting me. She uses a noise machine to fall asleep. I took a picture of one in the hotel and sent it to her. She was like yeah. I'm going to get my new bf to start using one. Like again. Stil trying to flaunt her relationship in my face. She keeps asking questions about this girl she thinks I'm hooking up with. She asked if I liked her while we were dating. I told her no. She then asked for her last name. She jokingly told me so she can Facebook her and stalk her!

I know it was a joke but really? Come on. It's fascinating that she does things that are like I still have feelings for you I still have feelings for you. Then she vanishes for a while just to resurface suddenly.

I do appreciate the post about that even when it's good. It's really not that good

Time for some hard truths.

You do realize she isn't the one doing this to you... . You are the one doing this to you.  You do see that, don't you?

[zenwexler]

That I'm deciding to subject myself and stay within the chaos? Sadly yes. I do know it's on me now. It's so hard to fully detach.

[woodsposse]

That I'm deciding to subject myself and stay within the chaos? Sadly yes. I do know it's on me now. It's so hard to fully detach.

Yes, it is difficult.  That is, unfortunately, the cold hard truth of the effects of the r/s.

But it gets easier - trust me - once you detach and see things for what they really are versus what you want to believe they are.

Chaos confuses.

[zenwexler]

Should i just stop talking to her all together? Should I tell her I'm distancing myself or just do it?

[woodsposse]

Should i just stop talking to her all together? Should I tell her I'm distancing myself or just do it?

I'll try and be direct as possible.

You can do whatever you like to do.  If you want to go... . go.  If you want to stay... . stay.  If you want to heal... . heal.  If you want to remain in chaos and be hurt... . do that. 

It is totally up to you.

This is the point I know I'm trying to put out here for you.  This is about you.

Your happiness starts and ends with you.  It always has, it always will.

But... . if you are saying you want to go - and asking what is the best way to go about it... . the answer is... . just go.  There is no reason to explain yourself to your abuser why you are not having any contact with them.  Just go be happy.

And in doing that... . yes, stop talking to her all together. It's called No Contact.  And trust me... . it helps.

[Runningbare]

I dont know about over there Zen, but Here in Oz the iphone can block now, its pretty recent but im sure most phones should be able to do it over there. Like Woods says, NC is the eaiest, when the number is blocked you dont have to think about whether to answer or not and it will stop the feelings coming up and dragging you back down. Otherwise you'll end up with her texting back every 6 mths and telling you to shave that long white beard off 

Just say seeya. Its just entertainment to her when she is bored or not getting what she wants from the 'current one' If you did get back to being the current one, you will be tormented by her constantly using the 'other one' to piss you off when you say no to something. You are in the better position now and most likely there are about 5 in your position anyway.

[goldylamont]

zenwexler, this being the undecided staying or leaving board, i'm wondering if this is the appropriate place to be posting -- and i'm not mentioning this as it's not a big deal of where you are posting, but where your head is at. what i mean is, i don't think you are undecided whether you are staying/leaving this girl. you're broken up, in different cities, she's sleeping with other men and taking pleasure in telling you about it. she's repeatedly told you she never wants to be in a r/s with you again.

if you were undecided, then you would still be together and figuring out if you wanted to stay or leave. she already took that option away when she broke up with you.

you need to be careful--pwBPD will play with you like a cat does a dead mouse. you have a deep need to feel 'loved' by this girl and she has a deep need to feel like she can control you. and this dynamic will only stop when she gets bored of you or *you* decide to put an end to it. trust me, it's better for you to 'man-up' and put an end to it first. if you don't, she will get bored of you zenwexler eventually and you will feel all the more bad for not standing up for yourself; swallowing your pride and listening to her tell you how other men are so much more satisfying than you for months on end waiting for a chance just so you can be with -- an abuser

i think your biggest challenge is to simply accept that you are incorrect on your assumption that your ex contacting you 'screams that she cares' -- to nearly anyone on the outside at this point (majority of us here and your Therapist, perhaps even your friends/family?) this behavior shows that she does NOT care about you. we create these fantasies to protect us from the pain of having to accept reality.

zenwexler i feel your work over the next few months will be to let go of this lie that you are telling yourself, that this person cares for you -- not doing so will only further your own pain and enable her abuse. when you finally come to the truth, the realization about how little this person truly cares for you, then you will get (very) angry for a while. i've barely noticed any anger in you yet which means you're not ready to see her for who she truly is.

remember, being undecided means that the other partner is engaged in being in a r/s with you. i see no indication that this girl wants to be in a r/s with you; other than a false 'friendship' where she gets her rocks off flaunting her sexual and emotional attachments to other men. she insinuated that you should buy her a ticket so she could go see her ex bf << that is the reality of where she is at. she's playing games zenwexler, don't give into this bs any more.

[zenwexler]

I do agree with a lot of what you say. I do one hundred percent need to man up and move on. I do disagree though about you saying she doesn't care. In the sense of. Regular person yes, caring is shown MUCH differently. But she can't let me go either. Just last night she was texting me at midnight asking how serious I am with this girl I know. I know she still cares. I'm not saying she's ready to jump into a relationship with me but I know she's still cares. But regardless even when she cares vs doesn't she's still the same person. She's still the manipulative condescending narcissistic person. She's contansy devaluing me. Constantly trying to paint me black. And when I just roll with it and not try to explain how I'm not black, it disarms her for a second then she gets right back to it. You say I don't have anger. But man I get into an angry sadness a lot. I'm furious at this girl. I go back and forth between wanting to kiss her and push her. She's not a nice person. She sucks at life. She's beneath me. Yet I chase her. That's my own personal demon. Why I submit myself to being abused even just as a friend