So here's the message in my Valentine's Day card. What to do with it?

[mssciart]

My uBPDh is becoming increasingly depressed as he gets older. He's retired now and is no longer "needed" as much by his employees (he was the CEO). And I think that's weighing on him. He's a loner for the most part because socializing stresses him. So naturally he looks to me to "fill his cup up."

Yesterday he picked a fight with me because I've said in the past that there are things in our house that need updating. To him that meant I hated our house.  A neighbor dropped by yesterday for help with his cell phone and the house was messier than usual and I mentioned that I wish the house hadn't been so messy (my mess as well as his). To him that meant that I thought he was messy.  So he started yelling that he couldn't live with someone that thought he was messy. And by yelling I mean full on red faced yelling. I started to engage and then remembered y'all's strategies so I told him that's not what I was implying and I'm sorry he was feeling like I thought he was messy and left it at that. As per his usual, he became silent and left the house. He's still not talking to me unless I ask him a question.

Today the message in my Valentine's Day card (by the way, he won't open mine to him) said he is in increasing despair that he does not seem to be capable of being, or doing, that which brings me the satisfaction, fulfillment and joy that I deserve.

This is not the first time he has said this and it won't be the first time that I've told him it's not true. Will he ever get it?? What would be a constructive response?

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[kells76]

Today the message in my Valentine's Day card (by the way, he won't open mine to him) said he is in increasing despair that he does not seem to be capable of being, or doing, that which brings me the satisfaction, fulfillment and joy that I deserve.

This is not the first time he has said this and it won't be the first time that I've told him it's not true. Will he ever get it?? What would be a constructive response?

Is that how things would typically go in the past? He says something like "I'm the problem, I'm in despair", and you say "But babe, I DO love you, you DO bring me joy"?

One of the tricky things to get about interacting with pwBPD (and, really, interacting with anyone we're close to) is that things that sound so normal to say in a  relationship, can be inadvertently invalidating.

We think we're just being reassuring, supportive, positive, etc, when unfortunately, we've accidentally invalidated. All of us have done it -- it's not intuitive to make a different move.

...

What do you think the feelings are behind his words?

If you felt that way (regardless of the cause), how would it feel?

How do you think it might go to respond with something like: "Wow... that must hurt to feel that way"?

[CC43]

Ms,

I'm so sorry for your passive-aggressive Valentine's Day message.  It's the opposite of I luv u.

When I read your post, I couldn't help but wonder if your spouse is projecting.  I've observed frequent projecting by the person with BPD in my life.  She projects because she interprets the world through a lens that is intensely colored by her current preoccupations and thought patterns.  Her projections, which are often accusations, give me a glimpse into the thoughts that are consuming her.

The message was, "He is in increasing despair that he does not seem to be capable of being, or doing, that which brings [me] the satisfaction, fulfillment and joy that deserve."  What if you read the message from his perspective?  In other words, he might be projecting his feelings of dissatisfaction, unfulfillment and despair onto you, while "accusing" you of [always] being dissatisfied, when he's the one who is actually dissatisfied!  Does that make sense to you?

I think you are being very perceptive about his difficulties in making a transition to retirement.  He probably felt important as CEO, and now he lacks daily structure and social status.  I tend to think that men derive significant satisfaction and status in their professional pursuits, and they miss it, even though they may not miss the actual work.  Maybe when he's not grumpy you could try being empathetic:  "Hey, do you miss your work buddies at all?  How about inviting your colleague out for a drink  next week?"  He might prefer a one-on-one with a former colleague over a larger group setting, as you imply.  Maybe you say, "It must be nice not to have all the day-to-day pressure of running a company; maybe now you'll have time to [insert hobby]."  If he doesn't have hobbies because he was so busy, maybe he'd like mentoring a younger professional in his field?  That might make him feel needed.

Clearly he was very high functioning.  Maybe he could volunteer.  At least that could get him out of the house and reduce the focus on you!  I hope this is just a difficult transition for him, and not something permanent.  You both deserve to enjoy retirement.

[mssciart]

  Kells76

Good point, Kells76. I think you're right that his feelings don't feel validated. I will try to be extra mindful of that going forward.

Ironically, I have felt that way before. If I ever tell him about a problem, he tells me I shouldn't feel that way. And again, you're right...it feels hurtful! Thankfully, I'm able to ground myself and let it go. But I don't think he's able to see through his feelings and recognize that maybe it's a false narrative he's telling himself.

To me, his feelings are about his insecurities in our marriage, or any relationship for that matter. Whenever he gets close to someone (me or anyone), he starts questioning everything they say or do and then he feels hurt...whether they've done anything unkind or not. He left last Christmas because he said he felt "invisible" when he was with the family. We all felt like we'd bent over backward to make him not feel that way. But it doesn't help. That's not his reality. And I hate to keep telling the family to be mindful of how they are interacting with him because I don't want them to have to feel like they're walking on eggshells. It's totally frustrating.

It's hard to validate his feelings when he won't listen or believe us. It's almost like he wants to wallow in his sorrow of thinking people just don't "get" him.

Any more suggestions would be appreciated!

[mssciart]

@CC43

Very interesting that you may see some projecting going on. Actually I have felt that he's been dissatisfied with me for awhile.  He has made many comments about me that are disparaging making me feel like he's just not that "into me" anymore. He has told me I'm not sexy or attractive TO HIM anymore (not sure what the emphasis on "to him" means). He denies now that he said that. I've just never been sure if he's truly dissatisfied with me or thinking that I'm dissatisfied with him. 

Any suggestions for figuring that out?

As far as needing something to do with his time, I have done all that you suggested. He doesn't seem to want to get out of his comfort zone or try to engage with his work buddies. If they reach out to him, he's open but otherwise won't go out of his way to make it happen. He really doesn't have any hobbies - work was his hobby! When he's away from home, even if I'm with him, he seems happiest. Maybe the day-to-day here at home is just too monotonous for him but he's not willing, or able, to make it better for himself.  As I said earlier, I think he likes to wallow in his sorrow.

[kells76]

CC43 has an interesting point that I've thought about, too:

I couldn't help but wonder if your spouse is projecting.  I've observed frequent projecting by the person with BPD in my life.  She projects because she interprets the world through a lens that is intensely colored by her current preoccupations and thought patterns.  Her projections, which are often accusations, give me a glimpse into the thoughts that are consuming her.

I sometimes wonder if pwBPD struggle with what I call "misattribution of causality". It's like they can rightly identify "there is sadness going on between us", or "there is yelling happening", or "we are both here and someone is feeling depressed", but they can't pinpoint that they are actually the ones who are sad, or yelling, or depressed. And it's too weird for a feeling to be happening without a do-er, so they, in order to make sense of life, put it on you: "There is disappointment going on, but because I lack a sense of self, I can't identify that it's coming from inside of me. You're here -- so you must be disappointed about me".

And like CC43 mentioned, so much of what pwBPD think, feel, say, and do are based not on "us doing it right" but on an intense preoccupation with wildly varying, quickly changing internal states.

...

Another thought that comes to my mind is that in reading back through some older posts on the site, I came across a speculation that pwBPD "telescope" their emotions through time. That is to say -- if right now a pwBPD feels depressed about life/relationships, then "he has always felt like it was a sham marriage", "we were never good together", "I don't know if I ever really loved you", "I've always let you down", that kind of thing, applied to the past. And -- "we'll never be able to fix our marriage", "counseling won't help us", "I can never bring you joy", "things aren't going to get better" -- application to the future.

It's taking the wildly varying feeling of the immediate moment, and projecting (well, "projecting") it back into the past, and forward into the future. So maybe take his proclamations that "I can never bring you joy" as less a statement of how things really are/can be, and more a reflection of how he felt in that moment.

...

I think you're right that his feelings don't feel validated. I will try to be extra mindful of that going forward.

Ironically, I have felt that way before. If I ever tell him about a problem, he tells me I shouldn't feel that way. And again, you're right...it feels hurtful! Thankfully, I'm able to ground myself and let it go. But I don't think he's able to see through his feelings and recognize that maybe it's a false narrative he's telling himself.

Yeah, I think that's just the disorder in a nutshell there. "Generally normal" people are able to self-validate and self-soothe. I had to do it today -- I sent a job to the shared copier, and then I expected to be able to go there and print my stuff off right away. Busy day! Instead, someone else was there, throwing off my schedule. I felt my annoyance rise to a 2 or 3/10 and then was able to self-validate/self-soothe: "That sucks, I wanted to get my stuff quickly. Well, that kind of thing happens".

Like you said, he isn't able to do that -- he will struggle with having insight into where his feelings come from and what factual things are (or aren't) connected with his feelings. "Feelings are facts" to him. That's a feature of the disorder, not an anomaly. It's sad to see, though.

To me, his feelings are about his insecurities in our marriage, or any relationship for that matter. Whenever he gets close to someone (me or anyone), he starts questioning everything they say or do and then he feels hurt...whether they've done anything unkind or not. He left last Christmas because he said he felt "invisible" when he was with the family. We all felt like we'd bent over backward to make him not feel that way. But it doesn't help. That's not his reality. And I hate to keep telling the family to be mindful of how they are interacting with him because I don't want them to have to feel like they're walking on eggshells. It's totally frustrating.

As counterintuitive as it sounds, what if you stopped suggesting to family how to treat him? That may have been putting you in the "rescuer" role of "I have to smooth things over between him and them".

It's hard to validate his feelings when he won't listen or believe us. It's almost like he wants to wallow in his sorrow of thinking people just don't "get" him.

Fortunately, whether validation is a good idea or not isn't dependent on how he responds to validation.

Validation is about how you can positively and safely connect with a pwBPD. You two are married -- we want to connect in a marriage. "Generally normal" ways of connecting might not always be effective, but without a connection, you have two people living in silos parallel to each other.

True emotional validation is about you finding a moment to connect with him on a feelings level. It doesn't have to be your only tool or move -- it can be really freeing to know that you don't have to keep hammering on validation until he feels OK and isn't wallowing in sorrow.

He might choose to keep feeling his feelings even after you've tried positive connection with him. He is allowed to do that (even if it seems like a bad choice)... and you're allowed to then take a break, step away, and not have the responsibility to change how he feels.

Maybe it could look like this:

Him: I let you down every Valentine's Day. I'm a loser -- I can never make you happy. Why do we try?

You: (emotional validation) Oh babe, that would feel awful to feel like you couldn't make me happy!

[notice that you aren't agreeing with his "fact" of "never making you happy". You aren't trying to persuade him otherwise, cheer him up, convince him, or "put a positive spin on it". You're just saying that it would suck to feel that way!]

Him: It doesn't matter. I'll always feel this bad.

You: That's no fun. I do hope things go better for you. I'm going to take a walk, I'll be back in a bit.

[again, notice you try one more attempt at validation ("that's no fun") but you don't have to keep at it if he's choosing to stay in a sad place. He gets to choose that -- you get to choose to decline to stay in a sad place with him, and you get to decline to take on the responsibility of "making him feel ok"]

...

The end of that second example -- you taking a walk -- is an example of a true boundary, one you have 100% control over.

Have you had a chance yet to look over our boundaries workshops?

...

I know this is a lot, and I think I might have cross-posted with you, so I'll pause for now  

[CC43]

Hi Ms,

I hear you, transitions with husbands can be tough, and some complaints can really hit home.  One tactic I use is to catch my husband in the act of doing something nice, no matter how small, and to praise him, while being both sincere and detailed in explaining how he pleases me.  For example, today my husband made coffee and poured a cup for me.  I said something like, "Honey, thank you so much.  You're thoughtful and take good care of me.  I love to start my day with a cup of coffee made by you."  It might sound over the top, but I do mean it.  And guess what?  He's now gotten into the habit of pouring me a cup whenever he makes coffee.  You could do something similar in the realm of attraction.  Like today, my husband got dressed up for a volunteer position he recently started.  I said, "Honey, your outfit looks very sharp today.  I'm lucky to be married to somebody so handsome and put together."  In my thinking, I'm constantly on the lookout for the behavior I love in my husband, and when he shows it, I'm vocal in explaining how I notice it. "Honey, thanks so much for taking out the garbage.  The barrels were really full this week, and you saved me from struggling with them.  You're so good at remembering to put them out on the curb."  I confess this is a little manipulative, but I really do appreciate the gestures, and most everyone likes praise.  And I really appreciate the help around the house.

I understand that work is a huge part of your husband's identity.  He might not had had much time to cultivate hobbies or many friendships outside work.  One idea that comes to mind is for him to consider serving on a board of directors.  Many boards are looking for former CEOs to help them.  The trouble is, he would have to actively pursue such a role.  He might have an ego and think that he should be "invited" for such a role, but it's unlikely to happen unless he takes the time to network and tell people that he's interested.  It's sort of like friendships:  it's hard to find friends without putting in the effort.

My husband retired recently.  For the last couple of years, he voiced to me many concerns about retirement, one being not knowing to do with the time.  So we talked about some activities he might like:  sports, hobbies, places we wanted to visit, volunteer activities, friend groups to consider, classes to take, or classes to teach.  I suggested that he take time to develop a "portfolio" of activities that would make him happy, and if he's happy, I'm happy.  So far he's tried a few things, and with some trial and error, he's keeping busy and enjoying it, I think.  We say, every day is a Saturday for us now!

[mssciart]

Kells 76

It bothers me to think that he is actually the one that is unhappy, unfulfilled, dissatisfied. How do I handle that? Leave the marriage? Continue to set boundaries and see if anything improves? I ordered the book, His Needs, Her Needs, that someone on here recommended. I just need to find a way to get through each day with as little anxiousness as possible.

I did validate his feelings of inadequacy that he wrote about in his card last night. His response was "yep, it does feel bad, really bad." I said I hope it gets better, said good night and went to bed.

I don't say anything to the family any more because I don't want them to have to walk on eggshells. But the stage has already been set. They know how he is and they do still try to do whatever they think will please him. It pains me sometimes to think about that. Thankfully the grandchildren are oblivious, except that he chose not to be here last Christmas, which they don't understand. I don't think our house will ever be without tension because of his insecurities and that's sad to me.

CC43

I know being retired is hard for him in that he isn't top dog and he doesn't have anyone coming to him for advice and guidance. He does consult some and that helps. But because his days don't have a mission for him anymore it seems like he's just totally focused on himself now.  Which probably contributes to his feelings of dissatisfaction. And then he projects that on to me and there we go again...

I am mindful to compliment him when he does little things to please me. And I too go overboard when complimenting him. He does do many small things for me when he's in a good mood but goes out of his way to make sure I notice he did NOT do those same small things for me when he's in a bad mood. That feels hurtful but I don't mention it.

Any other thoughts?