Need some help on validation and the invalid

[Cole]

My BPD wife often seeks validation for the invalid, such as her belief my family hates her. In reality, my family does not hate her. They have, in fact, figured out she needs over-the-top acceptance and try their best to give it. It is not just my family, it is the PTA, GSA moms, work, and any group where she can find something to be offended over. In her world everyone is against her and she looks for the evidence every chance she gets.

So how do I deal with statements such as, "Your family hates me. You have seen it, right?" If I try to validate her feelings she takes it as me agreeing that my family hates her and further confirms it in her mind. If I say it is not true, the battle is on, with her drawing on things people have said or done that you and I would see as normal, but she sees as some kind of an attack and evidence she is right.

I had this conversation with a therapist we saw together. His answer of, "Humm... let me think about that one... ."  was maddeningly unhelpful and lead to us stopping the waste of time and money with him. I have learned more from reading your posts and the information on this site in the past few days than I have from any MD's or PhD's we have seen and hope you folks who live this in the real world can offer some advice on how you have handled such situations.     

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[flowerpath]

Hi, Cole.

I’m glad you found this site for support.  It really is a good and solid place to learn better ways to interact with a pwBPD.  The lessons and advice here have helped me tremendously.

I have learned more from reading your posts and the information on this site in the past few days than I have from any MD's or PhD's we have seen

The first counselor I went to over 30 years ago asked me if I had tried wearing a sexy nightie in response to all of my uBPDh’s behavior plus his alcohol abuse and for homework before the next session to draw a picture of who I wanted to be.  That was my first and last session with that counselor.  

It really can feel like a fine line – a balancing act – when it comes to a situation in which they seem to want validation for something that is not true.  When my uBPDh says things that are similar to what your wife said, I try to adapt this S.E.T. lesson to the situation:  

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0

That way you would acknowledge her feelings (Sympathy) and show that you understand them (Empathy). Those being said first, when it come to the Truth part, I have said something like “It may be really hard for you to see, but the truth of the situation is….”  Using the S.E.T. tool, first there's demonstration that you care and that you understand how she feels (without validating the invalid) and can hopefully prevent the truth from coming across as invalidation or turning into an immediate argument because it’s the opposite of what she said.  

[Cole]

Hi, Cole.

I’m glad you found this site for support.  It really is a good and solid place to learn better ways to interact with a pwBPD.  The lessons and advice here have helped me tremendously.

I have learned more from reading your posts and the information on this site in the past few days than I have from any MD's or PhD's we have seen

The first counselor I went to over 30 years ago asked me if I had tried wearing a sexy nightie in response to all of my uBPDh’s behavior plus his alcohol abuse and for homework before the next session to draw a picture of who I wanted to be.  That was my first and last session with that counselor.  

It really can feel like a fine line – a balancing act – when it comes to a situation in which they seem to want validation for something that is not true.  When my uBPDh says things that are similar to what your wife said, I try to adapt this S.E.T. lesson to the situation:  

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0

That way you would acknowledge her feelings (Sympathy) and show that you understand them (Empathy). Those being said first, when it come to the Truth part, I have said something like “It may be really hard for you to see, but the truth of the situation is….”  Using the S.E.T. tool, first there's demonstration that you care and that you understand how she feels (without validating the invalid) and can hopefully prevent the truth from coming across as invalidation or turning into an immediate argument because it’s the opposite of what she said.  

Seriously? Why haven't any of her highly paid MD's or PhD counselors ever recommended this? What am I paying them for?

Thank you for that link. The "T" part definitely needs to wait until she is calmed down, but will try S.E.T. If that does not work, I will try the others until I find something that helps her. Thank you! 

These are the tools I desperately need. I have survived many deadly encounters in my previous career without any PTSD or other issues. But the hell my wife has put me through lately is really getting to me. I am so glad I found this sight and these people.     

   

[ColdEthyl]

Hi, Cole.

I’m glad you found this site for support.  It really is a good and solid place to learn better ways to interact with a pwBPD.  The lessons and advice here have helped me tremendously.

I have learned more from reading your posts and the information on this site in the past few days than I have from any MD's or PhD's we have seen

The first counselor I went to over 30 years ago asked me if I had tried wearing a sexy nightie in response to all of my uBPDh’s behavior plus his alcohol abuse and for homework before the next session to draw a picture of who I wanted to be.  That was my first and last session with that counselor.  

It really can feel like a fine line – a balancing act – when it comes to a situation in which they seem to want validation for something that is not true.  When my uBPDh says things that are similar to what your wife said, I try to adapt this S.E.T. lesson to the situation:  

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0

That way you would acknowledge her feelings (Sympathy) and show that you understand them (Empathy). Those being said first, when it come to the Truth part, I have said something like “It may be really hard for you to see, but the truth of the situation is….”  Using the S.E.T. tool, first there's demonstration that you care and that you understand how she feels (without validating the invalid) and can hopefully prevent the truth from coming across as invalidation or turning into an immediate argument because it’s the opposite of what she said.  

Seriously? Why haven't any of her highly paid MD's or PhD counselors ever recommended this? What am I paying them for?

Thank you for that link. The "T" part definitely needs to wait until she is calmed down, but will try S.E.T. If that does not work, I will try the others until I find something that helps her. Thank you! 

These are the tools I desperately need. I have survived many deadly encounters in my previous career without any PTSD or other issues. But the hell my wife has put me through lately is really getting to me. I am so glad I found this sight and these people.     

   

Cole, I must tell you the tools here on this site have helped us more than counselors have.

[flowerpath]

I find myself reading every one of those links to the right > and also the links that are posted within those lessons again and again.  There's always something that didn't stand out to me the times I read them before.  I've also searched ^ bing - search site ^ for threads that relate specifically to what I'm experiencing and have gotten a lot of help reading those. 

[maxsterling]

Regarding that specific situation, why I have been trying is this:

"I know families can be frustrating, and mine is no different.  It's okay for you to be annoyed by them, I am too - I grew up with them!  I don't ask you to like them or be buddy-buddy, but I do need you to accept them for who they are, treat them with respect, and accept that i love them."

I remember a few weeks ago in MC, she went on and on about how much my mom annoys her (and insulting my mom in the process). I used statement similar to the above, about how she is not perfect, she has her flaws, and she is who she is.  My wife continued, then said "what am I supposed to do, just accept her?"  To that, both me and the counselor simultaneously said, "Yes."  The counselor continued, "You can't change, her; he can't change her.  You have to accept her.  There really is no other choice."  I then added, "despite her flaws she is my mother and I love her."

Since that session, she has been better, and when she starts going off about some kind of criticism of me, I say "well, I am who I am."

[Grey Kitty]

I think that validating her feeling of being hated is about the best you can do. Asking more about how she is feeling or why she thinks this might help.

When I've been in a similar situation, I've said something to the effect of "I can't read their minds, but I haven't seen them act as if they hated you, nor have I heard them say that."

Saying that she is wrong is invalidating her. Saying that she is right is validating the invalid. This doesn't do either. It is mostly refusing to comment in either direction. (It is true that you can't read somebody else's mind.)

[Cole]

I think that validating her feeling of being hated is about the best you can do. Asking more about how she is feeling or why she thinks this might help.

Problem there is when I ask why she thinks my family hates her we open a can of worms. Correction: A can of PO'd immortal cobras.

Example: My wife gave my sister-in-law a recipe. She tried it, it did not turn out, and she asked if my wife have given her the right recipe. What sister-in-law meant: ":)id you copy it down right?" What my wife heard: "You intentionally sabotaged me. You are not worthy of this family. I hate you."

This was 6 years ago and my wife still uses it as a reason why my family hates her. It is just one example of an innocent event she has taken as an attack on her and which she just cannot let go. There is no rationalizing, no apologizing. Nothing short of inventing a time machine and going back to undo whatever she is hurt over will do.    

This example is on the lower end. On the more extreme end, she has raged at me for dating someone else in high school. We lived in different states and did not meet until 14 years after I graduated, but that does not seem to matter when she is in one of her episodes.    

[Grey Kitty]

I think that validating her feeling of being hated is about the best you can do. Asking more about how she is feeling or why she thinks this might help.

Problem there is when I ask why she thinks my family hates her we open a can of worms. Correction: A can of PO'd immortal cobras.

The part to validate is her feelings, not her thoughts and her reasons for those feelings.

And when she's a PO'd can of cobras, validation isn't the tool I use.

That's when I use boundary enforcement. That sounds like verbal abuse, and I remove myself from it.

[ColdEthyl]

This example is on the lower end. On the more extreme end, she has raged at me for dating someone else in high school. We lived in different states and did not meet until 14 years after I graduated, but that does not seem to matter when she is in one of her episodes.    

My dBPDh brings up a guy I used to play World of Warcraft with. He's married now, living in China with his baby and wife. I played WoW with this guy for 6 years. At one point, 3 years before I even moved into the state I live in now and met my husband, I had briefly thought of wanting to date this guy when we were one state apart. I thought of the pros and cons, decided against it. I didn't even tell the guy what I thought about. I have made the mistake of telling my husband about it when we were dating.

I have never heard the end of it since. I won't even play online gaming anymore because of this. It's not worth the hassle. I really... .REALLY wish I never told him that.

[Theo41]

You know, one of the most important things is for us to take care of ourselves. About two years ago , with this help of this site and the alanon program (which is great too, my T insisted I go ), I started removing myself from these situations when they become unbearable. That includes actions like: not engaging (being quiet), going to another room, walking the dog, going to a movie, renting a hotel room for the night. It's important to tell her I'll be back and exactly when and then to be back on time. We do not have to, nor is it healthy for us to accept unacceptable behavior. She fears abandonment, so removing myself is a great wake up call. This has gone a long way towards her improving : trying not  to act out, acting out but stopping it much more quickly, and apologizing and making up with loving behavior to make up for my distress. It's getting better. THEO

[Cole]

You know, one of the most important things is for us to take care of ourselves. About two years ago , with this help of this site and the alanon program (which is great too, my T insisted I go ), I started removing myself from these situations when they become unbearable. That includes actions like: not engaging (being quiet), going to another room, walking the dog, going to a movie, renting a hotel room for the night. It's important to tell her I'll be back and exactly when and then to be back on time. We do not have to, nor is it healthy for us to accept unacceptable behavior. She fears abandonment, so removing myself is a great wake up call. This has gone a long way towards her improving : trying not  to act out, acting out but stopping it much more quickly, and apologizing and making up with loving behavior to make up for my distress. It's getting better. THEO

Great advice. Thank you.

I used that type of thinking when she went off on me the other night about something someone else "did to her" 9 years ago. I said I would not continue to be yelled at and the conversation was over. She then threatened to pack up and move out that very minute. I said, "OK. Let me know if you need any help." and walked out.

Five minutes later she was sitting in bed calmly reading and wanted to have a normal, positive conversation about something else. You are right about the wake-up call!

[Grey Kitty]

I used that type of thinking when she went off on me the other night about something someone else "did to her" 9 years ago. I said I would not continue to be yelled at and the conversation was over. She then threatened to pack up and move out that very minute. I said, "OK. Let me know if you need any help." and walked out.

Five minutes later she was sitting in bed calmly reading and wanted to have a normal, positive conversation about something else. You are right about the wake-up call!

She's feeling hurt and can't cope with it well. She tries to throw the hurt onto you with a threat to leave. If you accept it and play that game, you let this work as a coping mechanism for her. (Aside: I don't view this as calculated--she's almost certainly not self-aware when and why she does it. That doesn't change the effectiveness of it.)

BTW, if those threats do continue/escalate, offering to "help her pack" is pretty good. Better still is to say that you don't want her to leave, but it is her choice/you won't stop her.

Walking out of the room after that was dead-on-perfect!

[waverider]

Feelings are real for the person feeling them. No one else is in a position to deny them from being true or real.

The facts on which these are based are equally true. The problem is the way these facts are interpreted and hence triggering these feelings varies from individual, and is open to debate.

A pwBPD feelings= fact, they have trouble distinguishing. As a result "I feel like someone hates me" =Some one hate me, as a fact.

To validate you acknowledge that her feeling someone hates her is a real feeling, you also diplomatically separate this from following the formula that means it is a fact. So in practice you say you can see that is how she is feeling based on her interpretation of what she sees. That is her unique perception and she is entitled to it. Don't deny her entitlement to it.

In return for allowing her to be entitled to her view and feelings it becomes easier for her to accept your entitlement to feel and interpret things differently. ie you sell the idea of we are all entitled to our own view of the world. For her to accept the validation (which is what she wants) she has to deal with the concept that you don't feel the same. This why the T part is an important element in the SET tool. S & E without T leads to walking on eggshells and feeding the problem.

Dont try the line "agree to disagree', that just feels patronizing, and is not the same thing. You are not disagreeing, you are simply accepting her interpretation and yours, and in fact everyone elses interpretation of any set events will be different. That is reality.

Dont try to change her view, dont try to sell yours, just ensure your view and her view are both entitled to be held.

BPD stubborness is often fed by opposition

[Cole]

Thanks, Grey Kitty for the "validation" that I handled that right. I usually do suggest that she go ahead and move out, drain our bank account, quit her job, join the circus, or whatever the threat of the day might be.

Last month she was going to quit her job, move back to her home town and get a job there. She had even applied for jobs and looked at an apartment. I told that if she truly felt that would make her happy, I would help her pack, move, and even clean up and paint her new place for her. She was- for once- speechless. Next day she was talking about the holidays and what we should do with the garden in the spring and I never heard about it again. 

And thanks for the valuable insight, Waverider. That makes more sense than anything her pdoc or T's have ever said.   

[JohnLove]

Hello Cole. Welcome to this site. I am glad you appreciate it's immense value for people that find themselves in these situations or relationships.

Your new powers of validation seem to be working very very well... .you have even validated my feelings!.

I never thought the advice of the vast majority C's and T's was worth very much at ALL despite what they are paid. 

The BPD experts often referred to or posting on this site would be an exception. I would throughly recommend reading all the tools on the site in the help sections by reading through them by relevance to you.

[startrekuser]

Hi, Cole.

I’m glad you found this site for support.  It really is a good and solid place to learn better ways to interact with a pwBPD.  The lessons and advice here have helped me tremendously.

I have learned more from reading your posts and the information on this site in the past few days than I have from any MD's or PhD's we have seen

The first counselor I went to over 30 years ago asked me if I had tried wearing a sexy nightie in response to all of my uBPDh’s behavior plus his alcohol abuse and for homework before the next session to draw a picture of who I wanted to be.  That was my first and last session with that counselor.   

It really can feel like a fine line – a balancing act – when it comes to a situation in which they seem to want validation for something that is not true.  When my uBPDh says things that are similar to what your wife said, I try to adapt this S.E.T. lesson to the situation: 

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0

That way you would acknowledge her feelings (Sympathy) and show that you understand them (Empathy). Those being said first, when it come to the Truth part, I have said something like “It may be really hard for you to see, but the truth of the situation is….”  Using the S.E.T. tool, first there's demonstration that you care and that you understand how she feels (without validating the invalid) and can hopefully prevent the truth from coming across as invalidation or turning into an immediate argument because it’s the opposite of what she said. 

My wife sounds a lot like Cole's wife and I've tried SET with her and it doesn't work.  That doesn't mean it won't work with Cole's wife.  My wife demands agreement that my family or I are trying to upset her or get us divorced, etc.

[SlyQQ]

Playing on the abandoment fears of someone with BPD is a very powerful tool but it is very much a two edged sword so beware

[waverider]

My wife sounds a lot like Cole's wife and I've tried SET with her and it doesn't work.  That doesn't mean it won't work with Cole's wife.  My wife demands agreement that my family or I are trying to upset her or get us divorced, etc.

The tools aren't always to placate our pwBPD they are as much about us putting ourselves in the right place. If they still want to continue to make a song and dance about it, then that is their party. The important thing is we don't join in. Then it becomes a lonely boring party. Eventually they give up or at least try something else.

The important thing is we change the dynamics from what they where. Nothing changes without change, and rarely do things improve quickly, with them often getting worse first.

[AnnaK]

Validation is the same as empathy.

Put yourself in her shoes. You are in presence of somebody else's family, and you feel like they all, absolutely hate you (because of that Big Shameful Problem of yours - too fat, too skinny, too sober, too drunk... .etc.)

Terrible, right?

So just say it :  "It seems like you feel that you are not accepted in my family". Then as the conversation goes, you might carefully ask if there is a possibility that it is just her perception.

There I sometimes stick in some educational material - sometimes we do feel that people hate us when in reality they are quite neutral. Like imagine you have a big pimple on the nose. You think that everyone in the room is busy looking at your pimple, when in reality nobody thinks about it - and most don't even pay any attention to it.

[startrekuser]

My wife sounds a lot like Cole's wife and I've tried SET with her and it doesn't work.  That doesn't mean it won't work with Cole's wife.  My wife demands agreement that my family or I are trying to upset her or get us divorced, etc.

The tools aren't always to placate our pwBPD they are as much about us putting ourselves in the right place. If they still want to continue to make a song and dance about it, then that is their party. The important thing is we don't join in. Then it becomes a lonely boring party. Eventually they give up or at least try something else.

The important thing is we change the dynamics from what they where. Nothing changes without change, and rarely do things improve quickly, with them often getting worse first.

Thanks Cole.  This is very helpful.

[Cole]

The tools aren't always to placate our pwBPD they are as much about us putting ourselves in the right place. If they still want to continue to make a song and dance about it, then that is their party. The important thing is we don't join in. Then it becomes a lonely boring party. Eventually they give up or at least try something else.

Excellent observation. She absolutely thrives on drama. If I don't give it to her she gets extremely mad, but calms down fairly quick and drops the subject.

Our s11 is dx with autistic spectrum/ADHD/ODD. He is very oppositional and does everything he can to create drama and start arguments. I am using many of the same tools his T (A rare excellent one at that) has given us to cope with our son to cope with my wife. I am learning quickly that when an adult with BPD throws a temper tantrum like a 3 year old, you have to respond the same way you would with a 3 year old.  

So just say it :  "It seems like you feel that you are not accepted in my family". Then as the conversation goes, you might carefully ask if there is a possibility that it is just her perception.

We have been down that road many times with nothing positive to show for it. Her perceptions are that everyone is against her and everyone thinks they are better than her: my family, people at work, girl scout leaders, PTA, and anyone who does not meet her very narrow definition of acceptance. Even strangers are not off limits. (Sorry, but the girl at Wendy's did not intentionally mess up your order because you are prettier than her and she felt intimidated. She made a random mistake that had nothing to do with you. And it was 4 years ago, drop it already.)  

Her perceptions are a major part of the issue. She grew up in a home listening to her mom talk about how everyone was against her. Her father talked about all the college boys at work who thing they are better than him just because they had an education. She listened as both her parents complained about the rich people who think they are better than them. Her grandmother told my wife at a young age that, "Our kind of people don't belong in the library."  This is the environment she grew up in, so it is a hard thing to change.