Need help with financial issues: anyone had success in managing this with BPDp?

[Buzz2]

I’m relatively new to the boards and have been reading through posts related to finances but have a situation I could personally use advice to handle in the best possible way.

My BPD/NPDh and I have been together 14 years.  He brought a lot of debt into the relationship and we’ve been sunk in debt significantly a couple of different times in our relationship and have been edging that direction for the last couple of years.  The times we’ve been able to get out of debt have been by selling or refinancing our home, not through any great money management strategies.

My husband has been the bigger wage earner for most of our relationship after I had my daughter.  I’ve always worked but less when she was born and then my earning power decreased.  I am in charge of finances in our home by default.  Because I was the one with more time (his opinion) as I wasn’t out of the house working, I slowly took over managing everything household related and this includes the finances.  What that means is that I pay attention to budget and expenses, make sure bills are paid, and put money aside for car repairs, medical bills, etc.  

It also means that I get to figure out how to cover things when he overspends.  Any suggestion on my part that he help figure this out is met with it being some version of my fault.  He swings between being pretty good managing money and then not.  I’m sure this surprises no one; it’s a metaphor for his struggles in life, really.

Anyway, I’ve been slowly working hard to up my earning power.  In the last couple of years I have renewed my certifications and licenses to get better jobs more in line with my experience and that also provide better financial support.  My husband has been supportive of this, mainly because it benefits him as well.  I saw a big increase in his “commitment” to our relationship when I accepted a job that pays about double what I’ve been making the last few years.

My issue is that now that I’m making a better wage I really feel a need to do better managing finances going forward.  I can’t control his money management but I can control mine.  I would like to separate our finances more but am struggling with both the logistical and emotional issues related to this.  In the past I have brought up my concerns about how we do our finances (namely that I am totally responsible for the outcome but only 50% responsible for the spending) and suggested separating things, but this did not go well.  At the time I didn’t have the tools to talk about it, however, so I’m hoping I can do better on my end this time.  I’d like to trigger as little abandonment fears as possible on his part.

Has anyone else dealt with this or had success in doing it?  As an aside - I was married previously and my first husband and I kept all of our finances separate just out of convenience so I have experience with this.  But we started out that way so it’s a different story.  Also my ex-husband didn’t have a PD.

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[pearlsw]

Hi Buzz2,

I can appreciate that finances can be a difficult issue in any relationship, but with a PD the potential for extra conflict is even stronger.

What are you wanting to change exactly? What would the ideal version of things be? I think it might be a good idea to get clear in your head, as you are the lead on such things in the household, about what works for you and then try to get buy in from him to the degree you can, knowing that you just may have to end up, for financial reasons do it your way, nearly no matter what.

Do you have any idea why he is resistant to the changes you want to make? In other words, why, and what valid (or invalid) concerns might he be sharing with you?

wishing you peace, pearl.

[Buzz2]

Hi Pearl,

You are right I need to get clear in my head.  In a nutshell I want to not go into debt anymore, pay off the debt we have, save some money, and occasionally be able to take a trip somewhere without debt.  The way I see this happening in my family is through having joint and separate bank accounts so that minimal havoc can be done to our finances by any one person's spending.  Obviously in this case I'm referring to my partner, but theoretically that can apply to both.  I'm not trying to make myself sound like a super-genius with money.

When I've brought this up before, I believe part of the resistance is my doing because of the way I discussed it (before awareness of PD).  The other part of it is that any separation of anything (time, money, space, etc.) is seen by him as abandonment and triggers major dysregulation.  My hope was that even though I know this will trigger, if I'm able to do a better job communicating on my end, perhaps there is a better chance for success.

I absolutely see as valid his concern about separating finances since we've been together 14 years, married 11, and during our marriage our money has been pooled.  To not have complete access or control somehow (whether actual or theoretical) could be upsetting.  And I can definitely do better to validate that than I have in the past.  I also think I can do a better job of identifying how this is best for everyone, not just me.

[teapay]

I solved the financial issues by separating the finances.  Best thing I ever did.  It made things much better for me and the family as a whole.  I'm much happier and I'm way better off.  I tried for several years to work with my wife budging and spending joint accounts with little success.  I kick myself now for trying so long and flushing so many additional resources.  It wasn't easy to do.  My W was against it all the way engaging in BPD antics to keep it from happen.  Ultimately I just unlaterally went ahead and did it.  Even though she says she understands way it was necessary, she is still mad about it.  My attitude now is oh well.  She would have been better off working with me.  She's not doing so well in that department now.  Your husband should take advantage of working with you.

[Buzz2]

Hi Teapay,

If you feel comfortable, would you tell me more about the process you went through to get to that point?  I'm just trying to get things square in my brain, like Pearl suggested, before I move forward.  It would help me to hear how others did it.

Thank you!

[teapay]

Probably the most important thing was just to honestly face facts and know that separating the finances was absolutely, 100% the right thing to do for my kids and me.  Once I got to that point, I wasn't going to let my W or anyone else with no skin in the game to dissuade me.  I wasn't going to care what they thought or had to say.  I also knew no matter how I did it my W wasn't going to like it and would probably act out.  I determined I'd just weather that out.  It didn't matter.  Financial solvency was orders of magnitude more important.  I also knew my W had an addiction to spending, so I could protect myself and not feel guilty about it.  We tried for a long time to work it out, but she was simply compromised mentally.

After that I took the following steps, all unilaterally without W full knowledge:
1.  Paid off joint credit card balance and took myself off card.
2. Opened separate bank accounts for me.
3. Switched Direct Dep from joint account to my sole account
4.  Spent down joint account for monthly living expenses
5.  Let W know new status of finances.

[pearlsw]

Hi teapay and Buzz2,

Thanks so much for dropping in and sharing your thoughts on this teapay - this is very helpful!

My financial arrangements are different, and I just found out my SO went into major debt this past year, but he seems to be getting it under control.

I know this an issue many people struggle with. I think your strong attitude carried you far. Did it lead to a lot of conflict, was it as bad as you anticipated?

sincerely, pearl.

[DivDad]

Since you have been married for 11 years, it appears it might be difficult to ask the BPD to start separating financial things although I agree with the advice given from board members to possibly go cold turkey.  Depending you’re your situation, maybe take baby steps.  (1) Tell the BPD that you are getting your own credit card (in your name) and he can do the same if he likes. Just do it.  Then later, see if you can pay down the card and remove your name…or ask the CC company under what conditions you can remove your name from the joint account. As mentioned, possibly obtain your own checking account, etc.  (2)  You might want to consider looking down the road a bit too.  Since you are working, you can tell the BPD  you are going to start your own 401K or Roth 401K for your retirement.  The 401K’s are in titled in your name only, but (in most states) are still considered joint marital assets, but at least it’s in your name. It's a bargaining chip if things spiral out of control.  I would ensure that when funding the 401k each year you do so from your own salary and keep copious records.  It’s just something to consider to protect yourself and have a little peace of mind in your retirement.   

[Buzz2]

Hi all,

Thanks for the help!

I do have my own separate bank account and credit card already, for reasons that aren't particularly relevant to our discussion.  The joint stuff is my main concern but I am developing a plan (very similar to Teapay) about this. 

I can see how being absolutely firm and resolute is the way to go, but I struggle with self-doubt.  It's a thing for me.  Anyway, I intellectually do believe in what I'm wanting to do and think I just need to "fake it 'til I feel it" and prepare myself for countermoves.

Teapay, I am curious like Pearl and wonder what response you got from your partner when you did all of this?

Buzz

[teapay]

Yes, there was some conflict.  My W got very angry and then alittle suicidal, but it was not as bad a response than was apt to happen in the past.  No self harm or sub abuse or inpatient or cops.  She had been in therapy and medicated, so was doing alittle better.  Also, by that point, she knew I wouldn't reverse course, could not be manipulated or guilted or any of the typical BPD stuff, so she had lost alot of her power.  I wasn't too worried about the conflict.  I mean, I guess more conflict could have lead to divorce and what? ---the separation of our finances. Plus, there was alot of conflict about money prior to separating fiances, so more conflict on doing it really didn't matter.  Now there is much less conflict.  I have little need to bring anything up any thing financial because finances of the family are so much better.  Although now my W says she understands why I did it, she still harbors resentment over it and will toss zingers every now and then.  I could care less about that.  I'm much much happier now.

[Buzz2]

Just wanted to give those who helped me out on this issue an update. 

This weekend we're having the financial talk.  I'm finally settled into my new job and have a picture of what things will look like financially for the near future.  Fortunately, my husband brought it up in the midst of a different discussion last night that we need to talk about money, so I can segue naturally into it.

My plan for the talk is to reiterate that I know we both have had a lot of concerns about money and that we agree we need to change some things.  In the past I've asked him for ideas and he doesn't have any, so I'm going to let him know that I've been thinking a lot about it since we both been stumped about moving forward and that I have a plan that I think is going to really help our family.

Wish me luck!

[pearlsw]

Wish me luck!

Hi again Buzz2,

I hope your talk goes well! 

I don't have any great personal advice on finances. I've maintained mine individually and let him manage his own things as he saw fit. I have tried to make supportive comments when I've noticed he's getting into an impulsive spending mode, to help steer him out of such a direction. I tried to be kind, "sold" the idea as looking out for him, because I was, and just introduced an element of caution. I wanted to offer myself as assistance, and not control in this area (or any). But that was how it was for me.

I would just head into this kind of talk avoiding blaming, and looking for areas where you can mutually agree and be on the same team. Validate concerns when you hear them, but be decisive and clear about what you will and won't do. Sell it as a positive (if at all possible) and he might even get on board.

Just my two cents!

wishing you luck, pearl.

[desperate.wife]

Good for you! I hope the talk will go better than you expect. Let us know how it went

 
DW

[an0ught]

Hi Buzz2,

Talk is cheap and often meaningless as the issues run deeper. Boundaries are really critical to allow tracking, clear decision making and attribution. Separate accounts and building some emergency reserves under your control can help. Nobody wants to be in debt and there are strong emotions associated w/ it. Thes feelings of shame, guilt and frustration need to be validated a lot for any progress to happen.

[Buzz2]

Thanks for the moral support everyone.

It went pretty well.  He brought up a couple of things I hadn't thought about, and we didn't necessarily agree, but overall we worked it out.  I feel much better now that we have an understanding of what to expect going forward.  I anticipate it will need some tweaking, but that's okay.  It's highly likely (inevitable) that boundaries will be pushed, but I feel prepared to respond as helpfully as I can and not defensively as I have in the past.

Rest assured I'll be posting again when needed!