BPD mother going in circles with health care team part 2

[Our abuse recovery guide]

I can't remember where I heard this -- maybe a podcast? -- it was a psychologist discussing the most difficult kind of clients in his practice. He said codependent men in abusive relationships were often the most stuck. It was like they were stuck in a limbo that that no amount of talk therapy could reach. I don't know why this would be different than codependent women.

My former therapist told me she encouraged her most stuck clients to get into group therapy because the dynamic shifted in ways she couldn't get it to when she worked 1:1 with certain clients. If that person left group, she figured he or she was likely to stay in the marriage no matter how bad it got.

Did you father have a support network beyond your mother? I sometimes wonder if it feels like clinging to a half submerged log in freezing temps is better than clinging to nothing at all.

The man who married my husband's ex wife seems like a more tragic person than H even though they chose to marry the same BPD person. H has a circle of friends who regularly check in with him and vice versa. According to my step kids, BPD mom's new husband is pretty much friendless and he makes no efforts to meet people.

It could be that BPD mothers like yours require too much time and attention and become all-consuming for their partners, making it hard to summon the tremendous strength and energy necessary to walk away, including overcoming the wave of guilt and obligation, not to mention fear that often accompany these relationships.

Following your mother's situation is heart-breaking because it's almost like she's treating the health care system like a spouse she's fighting nonstop, and you are the one left trying to manage what is ultimately unmanageable, much like what your father must've experienced.

Meanwhile, you are remarkable    Even though we only know each other here, and I can't quite put my finger on what it is, I feel something that is hard to put into words reading what you're going through. I think it's the very private emotions we experience in families where no one is there to protect us. It's a certain kind of heaviness and even powerlessness, where we can't fully express who we are because a parent makes that all but impossible to do.

Sometimes I feel it elsewhere on the boards but it's often most palpable in threads about aging or ill or dying parents. It seems stunning that even now, as they get sick and are close to death, there is no relief from the emotional illness and in fact it seems to get stronger. I saw this when my mother was hospitalized and the dynamics between her and my father, and them and me -- it was hard to believe that even then we could not sync. I had this almost numbing realization that there is virtually nothing I can do to influence how they manage her health, even though my husband is a respected physician and was willing to advocate for them on their behalf.

Neither of them has a PD to my knowledge but they have virtually no differentiation of self. I don't know that there is much anyone can do when someone is like that, especially when they are adults. It makes it very painful for us as their adult children to stand by relatively helplessly. It's like we have to be there to bear witness while having no say in reducing their suffering.

It's quite a strange kind of pain that is hard to communicate to people who haven't lived it.

[livednlearned]

I can't remember where I heard this -- maybe a podcast? -- it was a psychologist discussing the most difficult kind of clients in his practice. He said codependent men in abusive relationships were often the most stuck. It was like they were stuck in a limbo that that no amount of talk therapy could reach. I don't know why this would be different than codependent women.

My former therapist told me she encouraged her most stuck clients to get into group therapy because the dynamic shifted in ways she couldn't get it to when she worked 1:1 with certain clients. If that person left group, she figured he or she was likely to stay in the marriage no matter how bad it got.

Did you father have a support network beyond your mother? I sometimes wonder if it feels like clinging to a half submerged log in freezing temps is better than clinging to nothing at all.

The man who married my husband's ex wife seems like a more tragic person than H even though they chose to marry the same BPD person. H has a circle of friends who regularly check in with him and vice versa. According to my step kids, BPD mom's new husband is pretty much friendless and he makes no efforts to meet people.

It could be that BPD mothers like yours require too much time and attention and become all-consuming for their partners, making it hard to summon the tremendous strength and energy necessary to walk away, including overcoming the wave of guilt and obligation, not to mention fear that often accompany these relationships.

Following your mother's situation is heart-breaking because it's almost like she's treating the health care system like a spouse she's fighting nonstop, and you are the one left trying to manage what is ultimately unmanageable, much like what your father must've experienced.

Meanwhile, you are remarkable    Even though we only know each other here, and I can't quite put my finger on what it is, I feel something that is hard to put into words reading what you're going through. I think it's the very private emotions we experience in families where no one is there to protect us. It's a certain kind of heaviness and even powerlessness, where we can't fully express who we are because a parent makes that all but impossible to do.

Sometimes I feel it elsewhere on the boards but it's often most palpable in threads about aging or ill or dying parents. It seems stunning that even now, as they get sick and are close to death, there is no relief from the emotional illness and in fact it seems to get stronger. I saw this when my mother was hospitalized and the dynamics between her and my father, and them and me -- it was hard to believe that even then we could not sync. I had this almost numbing realization that there is virtually nothing I can do to influence how they manage her health, even though my husband is a respected physician and was willing to advocate for them on their behalf.

Neither of them has a PD to my knowledge but they have virtually no differentiation of self. I don't know that there is much anyone can do when someone is like that, especially when they are adults. It makes it very painful for us as their adult children to stand by relatively helplessly. It's like we have to be there to bear witness while having no say in reducing their suffering.

It's quite a strange kind of pain that is hard to communicate to people who haven't lived it.

[Notwendy]

I can't remember where I heard this -- maybe a podcast? -- it was a psychologist discussing the most difficult kind of clients in his practice. He said codependent men in abusive relationships were often the most stuck. It was like they were stuck in a limbo that that no amount of talk therapy could reach. I don't know why this would be different than codependent women.

I would agree. I think it's due to gender roles and the different ways men and women present with BPD. My mother was pretty, petite, and could make my father feel like a hero. She was also financially dependent on him. I think that co-dependent women might have a different role for an emotionally disordered BPD man who acts out in different ways. I also think there are less resources for men who are in abusive relationships than for women, making it harder for them to seek help. I think men who are in abusive relationships feel less supported or even believed if they speak out and I think this is an area where more support is needed.

My former therapist told me she encouraged her most stuck clients to get into group therapy because the dynamic shifted in ways she couldn't get it to when she worked 1:1 with certain clients. If that person left group, she figured he or she was likely to stay in the marriage no matter how bad it got.

Did you father have a support network beyond your mother? I sometimes wonder if it feels like clinging to a half submerged log in freezing temps is better than clinging to nothing at all.

The man who married my husband's ex wife seems like a more tragic person than H even though they chose to marry the same BPD person. H has a circle of friends who regularly check in with him and vice versa. According to my step kids, BPD mom's new husband is pretty much friendless and he makes no efforts to meet people.

What I saw with Dad was a change over time. He had a professional world that he enjoyed very much. He was able to get out of the house and be with colleagues. We had child care which I found odd. Most of my friends didn't have child care. This was the era where most women didn't work outside the home and BPD mother didn't either.

I know now that there were reasons for the sitters- one was for us but the other is that it would mean another adult was in the house. Similar to my own decision to not leave a child alone with my mother. However, we still were alone with her at times and when we got too old for a babysitter, we were alone with her. In the evening when Dad was home, and the sitter gone, we saw the dynamics, the arguments, and BPD mother's behavior.

I think two events promoted more enmeshment between my parents. One was that we kids grew up and left home. I think in a way, we provided a "reality check" for Dad. Not buying into BPD mother's distorted thinking may have caused issues but as older kids, we were also other non disordered people to interact with. We'd bring our own ideas and world into the mix, like asking Dad to help with homework. It may have been easier on them once it was just the two of them but then, the home became like an insulated bubble. The other event was his retirement. He still made an effort to get out of the house to do his own interests but without the boundary of having to go to work, he spent more time as a caretaker for BPD mother.

It could be that BPD mothers like yours require too much time and attention and become all-consuming for their partners, making it hard to summon the tremendous strength and energy necessary to walk away, including overcoming the wave of guilt and obligation, not to mention fear that often accompany these relationships.

My mother's emotional needs are very large. The caretaker staff sees this. All consuming is a fitting word.

Following your mother's situation is heart-breaking because it's almost like she's treating the health care system like a spouse she's fighting nonstop, and you are the one left trying to manage what is ultimately unmanageable, much like what your father must've experienced.

Meanwhile, you are remarkable    Even though we only know each other here, and I can't quite put my finger on what it is, I feel something that is hard to put into words reading what you're going through. I think it's the very private emotions we experience in families where no one is there to protect us. It's a certain kind of heaviness and even powerlessness, where we can't fully express who we are because a parent makes that all but impossible to do.

Sometimes I feel it elsewhere on the boards but it's often most palpable in threads about aging or ill or dying parents. It seems stunning that even now, as they get sick and are close to death, there is no relief from the emotional illness and in fact it seems to get stronger. I saw this when my mother was hospitalized and the dynamics between her and my father, and them and me -- it was hard to believe that even then we could not sync. I had this almost numbing realization that there is virtually nothing I can do to influence how they manage her health, even though my husband is a respected physician and was willing to advocate for them on their behalf.

Neither of them has a PD to my knowledge but they have virtually no differentiation of self. I don't know that there is much anyone can do when someone is like that, especially when they are adults. It makes it very painful for us as their adult children to stand by relatively helplessly. It's like we have to be there to bear witness while having no say in reducing their suffering.

It's quite a strange kind of pain that is hard to communicate to people who haven't lived it.

I think you have described so well - how it went with my father. The two of them presented as one unit- to the health care providers and it was so chaotic. I felt helpless. Seeing how similar the situation is with my mother, I know now that it's not due to lack of helping- it's the chaos of the situation. Medical providers rely on patient histories and my mother's communication style is chaotic and what she reports changes.

What is it that is so emotionally difficult. If the parent-child relationship is disordered, why do we care at all? Because, we aren't disordered and this is a continuum of wanting to relate to our parents in a "normal" way and where we get that idea of "normal" from. I noticed it in my friends' parents as a kid- in relatives. This is how a mother acts and I think we want that too. Now, we are at the stage of helping our aging parents and we approach this from the model of "normal" we have seen with our peers, and our culture, but we are dealing with something different. My mother's needs don't "fit" the available models and resources for elder care.

The other is our own moral code and cultural expectations. My parents were chaotic but not amoral. BPD mother seems to have a different perspective of the "rules" but that is driven by her disorder. The set of moral codes are universal to religions and our culture and laws- a version of the 10 commandments being a foundation. So whatever our background is- we grow up knowing how to behave- don't steal, don't murder- these are crimes and also amoral.

How we treat parents and the elderly is very much a part of our moral code. The resources in place for elderly also assume families are involved in the caregiving but don't seem to have a model for what do do when that parent is abusive or disordered.

We see the model of a "normal" adult child- elderly parent. and attempt at it, but it doesn't seem to work well.

[Methuen]

It could be that BPD mothers like yours require too much time and attention and become all-consuming for their partners, making it hard to summon the tremendous strength and energy necessary to walk away, including overcoming the wave of guilt and obligation, not to mention fear that often accompany these relationships...Did you father have a support network beyond your mother? I sometimes wonder if it feels like clinging to a half submerged log in freezing temps is better than clinging to nothing at all.

I think it takes an incredible amount of strength and courage to actually leave these relationships once codependency takes over, especially if one entered into the marriage contract believing it's "for better or worse".

Following your mother's situation is heart-breaking because it's almost like she's treating the health care system like a spouse she's fighting nonstop, and you are the one left trying to manage what is ultimately unmanageable, much like what your father must've experienced.

Truly unmanageable. She has "capacity and autonomy" so the only choice left is to let them make their bad decisions and also live with the consequences, even when we can see that their decisions are bad and even harmful.  For me it has come down to learning to "let go".  Somewhere on this forum a long while back, there was a FABLE posted about "The Man on The Bridge" and learning to let go of the codependency.  That poem really resonated with me.  It's just really hard to let go when that person is a loved one, and their decisions lead to harm.

I can't quite put my finger on what it is, I feel something that is hard to put into words reading what you're going through. I think it's the very private emotions we experience in families where no one is there to protect us. It's a certain kind of heaviness and even powerlessness, where we can't fully express who we are because a parent makes that all but impossible to do...It makes it very painful for us as their adult children to stand by relatively helplessly. It's like we have to be there to bear witness while having no say in reducing their suffering.

So so accurate.

I think two events promoted more enmeshment between my parents. One was that we kids grew up and left home. I think in a way, we provided a "reality check" for Dad. Not buying into BPD mother's distorted thinking may have caused issues but as older kids, we were also other non disordered people to interact with. We'd bring our own ideas and world into the mix, like asking Dad to help with homework. It may have been easier on them once it was just the two of them but then, the home became like an insulated bubble. The other event was his retirement. He still made an effort to get out of the house to do his own interests but without the boundary of having to go to work, he spent more time as a caretaker for BPD mother.

So true.  I think it's so much worse for the spouse in your father's position than it even is for daughters of pwBPD.  As a daughter, the only way I could set a firm boundary was to return to work out of retirement. And I often resent feeling that I have to work, in order to feel safe from my mom.  And I live in a separate house from her.  A spouse who retires lives in the same house, and can't really escape unless they find the strength and courage to differentiate, or separate.  I can totally see where codependency gets worse for aging spouses, because as the social networks from work and community activities drop off with retirement and aging, they become more entwined in the smaller BPD bubble of the home.

What is it that is so emotionally difficult. If the parent-child relationship is disordered, why do we care at all? Because, we aren't disordered and this is a continuum of wanting to relate to our parents in a "normal" way and where we get that idea of "normal" from. I noticed it in my friends' parents as a kid- in relatives. This is how a mother acts and I think we want that too. Now, we are at the stage of helping our aging parents and we approach this from the model of "normal" we have seen with our peers, and our culture, but we are dealing with something different. My mother's needs don't "fit" the available models and resources for elder care.

This resonates so much for me.  It puts the finger right on the pulse of the problem.  I think needing a mother might be an instinct.  I don't know if that even makes sense.  We never stop wanting that relationship, even when we are cognitively aware we can never have it.  But it's hard to stop trying because we still care.  Also, there is no model of elder care for mothers like ours.  The medical system (and society) counts on family to support their elders.  This works fine for families where there has not been abuse.  But what is the model when there has been abuse?  I would like to know this.

Sometimes it feels to me like the health care system and all of society expects H and I to care for mom.  Of course they do.  She's my mom.

But does the health care system also expect a battered woman to care for her partner?  No. 

The difference is that in our case, the bruises and harm are on the inside, and not visible.  That shouldn't mean it's not worth recognizing and having a model for.

[Notwendy]

I think it takes an incredible amount of strength and courage to actually leave these relationships once codependency takes over, especially if one entered into the marriage contract believing it's "for better or worse".
 Truly unmanageable. She has "capacity and autonomy" so the only choice left is to let them make their bad decisions and also live with the consequences, even when we can see that their decisions are bad and even harmful.  For me it has come down to learning to "let go".  Somewhere on this forum a long while back, there was a FABLE posted about "The Man on The Bridge" and learning to let go of the codependency.  That poem really resonated with me.  It's just really hard to let go when that person is a loved one, and their decisions lead to harm.
 So so accurate.
So true.  I think it's so much worse for the spouse in your father's position than it even is for daughters of pwBPD.  As a daughter, the only way I could set a firm boundary was to return to work out of retirement. And I often resent feeling that I have to work, in order to feel safe from my mom.  And I live in a separate house from her.  A spouse who retires lives in the same house, and can't really escape unless they find the strength and courage to differentiate, or separate.  I can totally see where codependency gets worse for aging spouses, because as the social networks from work and community activities drop off with retirement and aging, they become more entwined in the smaller BPD bubble of the home.
 This resonates so much for me.  It puts the finger right on the pulse of the problem.  I think needing a mother might be an instinct.  I don't know if that even makes sense.  We never stop wanting that relationship, even when we are cognitively aware we can never have it.  But it's hard to stop trying because we still care.  Also, there is no model of elder care for mothers like ours.  The medical system (and society) counts on family to support their elders.  This works fine for families where there has not been abuse.  But what is the model when there has been abuse?  I would like to know this.

Sometimes it feels to me like the health care system and all of society expects H and I to care for mom.  Of course they do.  She's my mom.

But does the health care system also expect a battered woman to care for her partner?  No. 

The difference is that in our case, the bruises and harm are on the inside, and not visible.  That shouldn't mean it's not worth recognizing and having a model for.

From the adult perspective, it was horrible to see what my father was dealing with. Trying to reason with my mother now, I can see how much of a challenge it was for him.

I can have boundaries with her, but I also don't leave the relationship. Because as difficult as her behavior is, there's the knowing that she is  non functional in a normal way, and that her well being depends on someone overseeing her situation. The only way she could have managed if my father had left her earlier is if she were in another relationship with someone else who took care of her.

It is odd that we are expected to take care of an abusive parent. Perhaps this is a part of culture and gender role expectations. There are less supports for men who are abused by women than the other way around and so possibly less supports for adult children. What I also wish for is better mental health supports for the elderly, but it's possible they are there but BPD mother won't respond to them as she hasn't before.

Being at a distance is probably my main boundary. Still, I speak to her frequently and also to her medical team, and then relay that information to concerned relatives. I also assist her with some of her responsibilities but with her being informed of what I do. I am in the odd position of "disempowered POA". She's in "control" and her behavior is out of control at the same time.

[zachira]

It was once unacceptable for a woman to say she was being abused by her partner. It is still very risky for a man to say he is being abused by his partner or for an adult to say that a parent is/was abusive. When we do speak about our mothers with BPD who are/were abusive, we mostly are given a dirty look as most people are uncomfortable with hearing this. There are a few people who do get it when we speak about how our mother is/was abusive, however the adult children are stuck having to choose who they can trust to disclose the abuse to and it almost always falls on the adult children to be the ones to bring up the abuse first and hope that they will be helped and heard. It is a long and lonely road to have a mother who is/was abusive and a father who enables/enabled the abuse. Having a loving mother who is living or to remember is something we all wish we had because we are human and our mother is the first person we ever knew.

[Notwendy]

When we do speak about our mothers with BPD who are/were abusive, we mostly are given a dirty look as most people are uncomfortable with hearing this. There are a few people who do get it when we speak about how our mother is/was abusive, however the adult children are stuck having to choose who they can trust to disclose the abuse to and it almost always falls on the adult children to be the ones to bring up the abuse first and hope that they will be helped and heard.

There was always a sense of fear and shame about disclosing this- as if anyone found out, it would somehow be seen as a negative about me. So I also went along with the family secret, afraid that if my friends ever found out about my mother, they wouldn't like me.

[Turkish]

There was always a sense of fear and shame about disclosing this- as if anyone found out, it would somehow be seen as a negative about me. So I also went along with the family secret, afraid that if my friends ever found out about my mother, they wouldn't like me.

As I was about to graduate from high school, I started intuiting that some adults knew something was "up" and felt sorry for me. It was even my teachers and one counselor who were shocked when I was going to junior college (for which my mom shamed me) when my peers in honors and the academic decathlon were going to Berkely, UC Davis etc.  Of course I wouldn't have "turned in" my mom. I just kept going on... that said, she did drive me 100 miles to my on-site job interview in the Silicon Valley as an entry level technician, I'll give her that.

[Notwendy]

Turkish- shaming you for junior college is so uncalled for.

With the cost of college- junior/community colleges are a good way to cut on these costs. I know several students who did just fine -whether or not they went on to a 4 year school after that.

Also, the home situation impacts academics. I don't think any adults had a clue what was going on in our family, but it did impact studying and also likely yours too.  It's good your mother took you to the interview.

[TelHill]

Hello Turkish,

I am outing myself to say I graduated from one of the colleges you mentioned and went straight from high school.  Studying meant my dBPD mother left me, her scapegoat, alone.

My mom and dad were angry when I left. My dad accepted it while there. My mom still thinks it was a waste of time.

My npd brother was very nasty about it. I think he goaded a few members of his own immediate family to put me down/ridicule me in the last few years. It seemed to put a wedge between me and my extended family. 

It still happens. My last therapist was passive aggressive about it and super competitive with me. I don't mention it in my personal life to anyone unless I know them well. I'm in the SF Bay Area which seems hypersensitive (& ready to fight)  to status. (Am a fan of Thorstein Veblen. I never would have heard of him if I never went to college.)

Maybe taking another educational route was a way to protect yourself from the hazing I went through?

There's more competition these days (larger population and more push for kids to go) than when I went. Plus, it's very expensive compared to when I went. ($30k vs $2000 for a year's tuition). Definitely nothing wrong with junior college!

Notwendy, it sounds like you're mom is out of danger (yay!) but still her own worst enemy as many of our elderly and ill BPD mothers are.

[Turkish]

TH,

Shaming is BS no matter who does it. In live where you do also. My current boss went to bat for me when i applied after our former group was being shut down/laid off. The director said "He doesn't have a degree." (AA or AS means nothing, never-mind the experience and accomplishments? and my microscopy cert from the only undergrad program in the USA). "The last guy in the position had a degree and you were unhappy with him."

Almost 2 years in, they seem happy with me, and I got a big raise as well. I wish my mom were alive to see it.