BPD ex doesn't feel the same way anymore - do I need to move on?

[ravfour4]

One weird thing though - she wanted to take a cab to my place and then a cab to the game. Why not just drive to my place and then take a cab to the game so she can drive home later... .? Trying to sleep over? Hmm. Unless she's all of a sudden all in I'll prob have to say no and just drive her home.

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[formflier]

Now I know to play it cool, take it slow and not be so needy this time around.

This is critical... .

What would "taking it fast" mean? 

What does "taking it slow" mean?

I'm glad you had a good conversation... .I can see that feels great to you.

The next important step comes... .when she seems to push you away... .or become less interested... .or tries to fight.

Don't bit... .be nonchalant about things and keep yourself otherwise occupied until she is in a better mood.

FF

[ravfour4]

Going slow means hanging out every so often, not talking about us, our future or anything romantic, not planning the next time we'll see each other before we leave, not saying good night every night and good morning every morning. Going slow means spending time apart and focusing on ourselves during those times to strengthen ourselves and potentially our attraction towards each other. It means not hanging out 24/7 or for 20+ hours at a time. It means going at her pace, if she texts me once, I'll send no more than one text back etc.

I think I know what I need to do. She said "regardless of what happens" again, so I think she's still open to the possibility of us being more than friends, but that will come far down the line if ever, not now.

If she gets distant, I will stay calm and not have my emotions match hers. I will not let my emotional state be controlled by hers.

One thing that was a lil sketchy was I thought I may have seen her w that dude when i rode my bike yesterday, but I was hardly certain. When I said I biked around town she instantly said when? Maybe it was her, but for this to have any chance of working, I can't care.

[ravfour4]

Well... .crap hit the fan. I kept my distance until the game, picked her up and was ready to have a pressure free fun time. I met a ton of her coworkers, most thought I was her boyfriend and we had a lot of fun. I noticed she kept sneaking off to make phone calls and saw her texting that other guy so I called her out on it.

She admitted she was back with him and it evolved in to an hour long drunken intense argument about her wanting to stay friends, but knowing that she's hurt me so badly and can't control the fact she has feelings for someone else etc.

I feel terrible once again. Her actions make minimal sense, a week ago she was cuddling me in my bed, last night before the argument we were grinding on the dance floor... .yet she's back with this other guy and he finally moved out of his house w wife and kids and that corresponds with when she started acting weird and distant and when she started lying to me again. Supposedly this other guy knew we went to the game together and was cool with it... .aka he's just putting up with anything to get her back. Before he wouldn't even let her eat dinner with me and went insane trying to prevent it, but now he'll put up with anything to get her back.

[formflier]

We are here to help.

I get it you feel horrible about this... .you are right to feel that way... .you have significant feelings for this woman that don't seem to be reciprocated.

Here is the thing... .she is making choices... .it may be because she is baiting you... .it may be because she really likes the other guy... .it may be because she really likes you.  The "dance" that is going on is dysfunctional... .

You have the power to change the dance... .all by yourself... .she does not need to play along. 

Well... .crap hit the fan. I kept my distance until the game, picked her up and was ready to have a pressure free fun time.

Most likely... .she was feeling pressure... .remember... .that is her issue... .not yours.

I noticed she kept sneaking off to make phone calls and saw her texting that other guy so I called her out on it.

Most likely... .this was what she was after... .it "fed" her part of the dysfunctional dance. 

If you ever get in this position again... .ignore it.  Don't "take the bait... .

She admitted she was back with him and it evolved in to an hour long drunken intense argument

Not good... .arguments... .rarely lead to anything good.  You have a choice to argue... .or exit.

I feel terrible once again.

 

Her actions make minimal sense

To you... .they don't.  To her... .they are her world... .they make sense. 

Your challenge... .and one of the reasons I advise you to SLOW DOWN!... .is so that you can learn the "order to the disorder"... .then it will make more sense.

, a week ago she was cuddling me in my bed, last night before the argument we were grinding on the dance floor... .yet she's back with this other guy and he finally moved out of his house w wife and kids and that corresponds with when she started acting weird and distant and when she started lying to me again. Supposedly this other guy knew we went to the game together and was cool with it... .aka he's just putting up with anything to get her back. Before he wouldn't even let her eat dinner with me and went insane trying to prevent it, but now he'll put up with anything to get her back.

This is not a contest between you and another guy.  Please drop him from your thinking... .and the r/s.

Focus on you... .focus on her. 

Focus on making emotionally healthy choices for you and the r/s.

That doesn't guarantee a result... .that you "get" her... .but it reduces the chances of you feeling bad... .long term.

How does this sound?  Does this change your feelings? 

We are here for you!  Hang in there.

FF

[ravfour4]

Thanks for always replying FF, I appreciate it.

I think what I fear most is being alone, with the break-up happening concurrently with my dad passing away, I lost my two favorite people in the entire world, the two people that understood me.

I put so much effort into this relationship and I've gotten nothing but pain out of it these past few months. Sure there were many moments where I was having the "time of my life"with her over these past 3 weeks, but she kept lying throughout it and the anxiety I felt in between visits sucked, although at the time I very much thought it was worth it.

I'm coming to understand that what she says and does in the moment - she means, but that it can change so quickly and so drastically at the drop of a pin. A little over a week ago she was saying how much she loved hanging out with me, holding my hand and saying she really wanted us to work.

It hurt me a lot last night when she claimed this other guy loved her more and all of the things she had said she hated about him, she had magically forgotten. I spent so much time focusing on myself before she popped back into my life and afterwards I spent so much time going shopping with her, planning fun yet lighthearted "dates", buying her a necklace she always wanted, cooking her tasty meals, going on fun walks and bike rides, helping her out with work, giving her massages, calming her down when she was stressed and all I got out of it was... .moments of happiness, purely because she was in my life again and because it makes me feel good to help her.

In her eyes, we were way different and I didn't love her anymore. In my eyes, when we were together these past few weeks (during the good times), we were better than ever and my feelings were certainly as strong as ever. I felt back in the honeymoon stage, but with someone I had already known for 4 years. It's so confusing to me that she would hop back into my life, "attempt" to make it work again - stay over and watch movies and cuddle only to hop right back out again, back to a person she said it wouldn't work with for a variety of valid reasons. She keeps alternating between having these terrible stressful conversations with him - then I seem strong and she comes back, until she breaks me down and then he seems strong and she goes back, she hasn't taken a single day to think about what she really wants and she hasn't spent a single day alone.

[formflier]

Thanks for always replying FF, I appreciate it.

I think what I fear most is being alone, with the break-up happening concurrently with my dad passing away, I lost my two favorite people in the entire world, the two people that understood me.

 

Grief and loss are tough... .I feel your heart coming through the post. 

Allow yourself to grieve... .the feelings are real... .they matter... .

Can you slow down... .sit with your feelings... .sit with the memories.

I would love to hear about some of those memories... .when you feel like writing them.

FF

[patientandclear]

FormFlier, can you expand on your view that Rav should essentially ignore the role of this other guy? Act as if it's not happening? I don't get that. And if I were his SO wBPD, I'd find that weird also, I think.

[ravfour4]

I don't think I can focus on her anymore. She straight up doesn't love me anymore, either that or she buried it so deep that I'll never see it again. She's lied to me constantly and only comes back when she's lonely or just to make sure I don't hate her.

I called her this morning just a few hours after our late night argument asking if we could meet up to end on a better note. She said she'd let me know, I texted later and she said she didn't want to talk today. I tried calling a few hours later and then just texted her what I wanted to say. I'm a mess right now.

Here's what I said: "A few weeks ago you promised you wouldn't go back to that person for a variety of reasons and told me you wouldn't hurt me again or be dishonest, and now you have done exactly that. You know I care about you and you know we had a lot of fun these past few weeks, hanging out almost all day every day. I put forth a lot of effort to show you I cared and if you at all loved me, you would have loved and realized that. We could have kept that going. We could have stayed in each other's lives, I would have been there for you, you know that. You don't have to do what you're doing, you don't always have to have a boyfriend. I wish you would just take some time to be alone, to just be <insert name here> and process everything that's happened these past few months. It's been a ridiculous wild roller coaster ride that you've looped multiple people into".

[formflier]

I called her this morning just a few hours after our late night argument asking if we could meet up to end on a better note. She said she'd let me know, I texted later and she said she didn't want to talk today. I tried calling a few hours later and then just texted her what I wanted to say. I'm a mess right now.

Turn your phone off... .

You need to give yourself some space.

What good can possibly come of contacting her when you are a mess? Seriously... .spend a lot of time thinking about that... .

FF

[formflier]

FormFlier, can you expand on your view that Rav should essentially ignore the role of this other guy? Act as if it's not happening? I don't get that. And if I were his SO wBPD, I'd find that weird also, I think.

Rav doesn't want a r/s with the other guy... .doesn't sound like he knows him... .except "through" his pwBPD traits.

Triangles are messy... .when they go well.  They usually don't go well.

If he wants to have a r/s with the lady... .then focus on that.  It appears she uses the other guy as "bait" a diversion... .whatever.  Or... .she may be serious about him.

Discussing it... .dealing with it... .has gotten nowhere in the past... .in fact... .it appears damaging... .so... .quit it.

At some point in the future... .or now... .based on Rav's values... .there will be a value choice to be made.

Does he want to continue in a r/s where the lady is somewhat involved with others.  That is his choice... .not hers... .to make.

So... .to sum it up... .dealing with the other guy continues to be damaging... .I see no reason to believe dealing him in the future would be anything other than damaging or hurtful.  So... .don't discuss it.

Thoughts?

FF

[patientandclear]

"Turn your phone off" is almost always good advice! That said ... .Rav, it seems to me what you wrote to her was fair and appropriate. I hope you don't spend any time beating yourself up about having sent that. It will not be easy for her to respond to or deal with, but that is not necessariky the test of what we should say or do.

[patientandclear]

FormFlier, my thoughts about Rav's inquiries about the other guy:

I don't hear him trying to engage with the other man. I hear him asking direct and appropriate questions to the woman who is at least tentatively talking with him about trying to be romantic partners again--about what it means about her intentions that she is also engaged intimately with another man.

Carrying on as if that isn't happening seems self-deceptive. And if I were her it would make me mistrust Rav. They don't have an open relationship arrangement that would explain his indifference to this piece of information which she is dragging in front of his nose.

I've been the one who chose not to raise such issues, and later, my BPD ex wanted to know why, since it hurt me, I didn't say anything at the time. It was a fair question.

I really support honest communication. It's great to use the tools to accomplish it. But willful blindness seems unhelpful.

Getting into an argument about probably was not constructive, but asking about it and not ignoring it does make sense to me.

In the end, Rav may already have known enough to make his own decisions without confirming facts with his SO, but usually it is a good idea to make sure one's inferences are well-founded before drawing major conclusions. His decision not to ignore this feels healthy to me.

[ravfour4]

No regrets on the text I sent. I still really crave hearing her voice though and I think I've stupidly justified acting needy to her since this other guy has done it repeatedly and apparently it worked... .although the difference is... .she actually loves him and not me.

I want to try calling her again, I just have no idea how she feels about this right now. Does she feel mad? Sad? Happy? Etc. This relationship has already dug itself a grave so I feel like being persistent in trying to contact her really can't make it any worse.

And yes patientandclear, what you said about my inquiries are true. She came back saying they were over for good and that she'd be honest to me and that the other guy wasn't in the picture and that wasn't why she was confused. When I saw that was a lie, I had to call her out on it, I was tired of her thinking it was ok to lie to me

[formflier]

Carrying on as if that isn't happening seems self-deceptive. 

No suggestion to deceive yourself.  Deciding not to participate in a triangle... .and believing one dosen't exist... .are two different things.

My opinion (for what it's worth) is that many pwBPD use other r/s to bait/inflame partners... .that "works" for them... .for some reason.

So... .it takes two to be baited/inflamed... .Rav can make choices about his role in this.  He can't make choices about her role... .that's up to her.

Other reasons... .discussions about "the other guy" seem to have been inflaming in the past... .were inflaming today... .and... .most likely will be in the future.

So... .nobody should be surprised if a discussion about him ends up in pile of smoldering embers... .

Or... .you could make a choice to not discuss him.  He still exists.

Once the r/s "calms" down... .if it does... .then a more reasonable conversation about the future may be able to be had.

Many different ways to look at it.  Most likely best way is to look at it through eyes of a pwBPD... .

FF

[ravfour4]

So, after my plea for her to call me, she finally did. Ended up being a 40 minute conversation, stayed calm throughout the entire thing. I tried to keep it positive to end on a high note.

Here's the gist:

-Neither of us regret the 4 years we had together and she said our relationship was so perfect for the large majority of that. She won't think or speak badly of me going forward. She acknowledged that she treated me terribly post break-up and lately and that she wasn't fair to me.

-Both acknowledge our role in the break-up and that we may not be the best for each other. I knew this before the break-up, I lost total sight of it afterwards, especially with the combo of my dad's passing. Before she broke-up with me, I was getting fed up with the constant up and down emotions, distant behavior and wasn't sure that she'd be able to consistently challenge me like I would want a life partner to. 

-I calmly asked her about her dishonesty and what her plan was if I hadn't asked about the other guy last night. Would she just keep hanging out with me saying we'll see how it goes and never tell me the truth? She had no plan and wasn't sure what was going to happen.

-Asked why if she knew she wanted to be with this person, why didn't she just stay with him? Why did she come back to me? She said because she wanted to give us a shot because the idea of us working was appealing, but the feelings didn't come back.

-She apologized for breaking a necklace I recently bought her last night. I forgot about that (too many drinks) and just found it on my bed  I realize I didn't even remember the entire conversation, she said I just kept calling her a b___ and she said that she knows she was one. A part of me wonders what would have happened had we not drank as much, I kept my cool until then, but another part of me is glad this happened so I can finally move on.

-Told her how much I care about her, how I've thought about her pretty much nonstop since we met 4 years ago and every single day since the break-up. Told her that when I told her 3+ years ago that I'd never give up on her and would always be there for her, that I hope she knows that's true and sees this as evidence. Told her I'll have to give up now our of necessity, but I don't want to.

-Talked about my fear of the future, she was nice and encouraging, saying she knows I'll meet someone great who will be even better for me and that I'll continue being very successful at work etc. Told her that I really wish there was someway we could continue seeing each other, that I'm scared to not have her in my life. She wished there was too, but knew it wasn't a good idea for any of us right now given the circumstances.




And with that... .we're done I guess. She said maybe we can be friends in the far out future, that she hopes there's a way for that to happen, but in reality, I think that rarely ever happens. I'll probably get more clarity on how terrible she treated me and what she put me through, hopefully meet someone new who truly loves me and never look back

[formflier]

     

We are in your corner!

FF

[an0ught]

Hi ravfour4,

I'm glad for you that you got some form of closure here. It still is painful 

And with that... .we're done I guess. She said maybe we can be friends in the far out future, that she hopes there's a way for that to happen, but in reality, I think that rarely ever happens. I'll probably get more clarity on how terrible she treated me and what she put me through, hopefully meet someone new who truly loves me and never look back

You were quite upset with her lying. Not sure you would be happy with that from your friends either. At least for the near future it would be best to focus on detaching, healing and rebuilding of yourself. You deserve better and a good thing is you know it 

[ravfour4]

Thanks for the support guys I think I'm more scared of being alone, even though I'm only 26 my old plan was to be married by now, now I need to venture out and meet someone brand new while working long hours, but whatever it'll be a fun journey.

When I woke up I couldn't stop thinking of all the nice things she said last week and all the fun things we did, she's definitely just following her emotions without thinking logically about what's happening. A week ago she talking about helping me work on a rap song to perform live and being willing to hype me up on stage... .now she's talking about never talking again and the only thing that happened in the interim was a lot of fun hanging out. I think as soon as she realized we may not work romantically (because she's still mad at me for not being perfect, she feels bad about what she did and has feelings for someone else), she went back to the other guy, despite having a long list of reasons not to and he should also have a long list of reasons not to be with her . Had she handled this differently, we could have either reconciled (if she had spoken up about the things that bothered her OR if she didn't migrate all her feelings to someone else right away) or remained friends (if she was single for a while afterwards or even just right now).

I made a video for my Dad's celebration of life party (part 2 in his hometown) that we're throwing and realized I got the wrong version of it from her a few months ago. I called and she said I could come over later today, I think she's missing me, but I know she doesn't love me so it really doesn't matter. Not gonna lie, I'm kind of using this as an excuse to see her although the reasoning is 100% valid, I do need this video by Fri.

The emotional part of me wants to ask her if this is really what she wants when 2 weeks ago she was holding my hand, looking in my eyes saying how happy she was to be free of that old situation, to have me back in her life and apologizing for everything etc. and now she's right back where she started... .The other part of me, the logical part, knows that this isn't love and that even though I crave the attention to fill this void I have with her leaving and my father passing, there's someone out there who can fill it even better, but I don't know who that is, and that's the scary part that drives me crazy.

I've been willing to sacrifice my logic and dignity to get temporary relief, when in reality, I need to push through the temporary pain to get permanent relief.

[formflier]

  I need to push through the temporary pain to get permanent relief.

How about trying this statement on for size?  Acknowledge that the pain you have is real.  It's yours (nobody elses) and you will work through it yourself.

FF

[ravfour4]

Seeing her went ok. I tried to play it cool and never got emotional or angry, but I couldn't resist asking some questions/pointing out why I was frustrated.

Just said that a few weeks ago she was so nice and we were talking about a future and now she's back with this guy, I just wish it made more sense. Her summary was that she can't control her feelings and she was mad at me for yelling at her Friday night and saying mean things.

The video was taking forever to burn to DVD and after our conversation we both just sat there on our phones. She's coming over to drop it off soon, I'll prob thank her for 4 great years, give her a hug and be on my way.

[ravfour4]

After I left I texted her saying "Sorry about before, I know there's nothing else I can do and I know we've talked about us plenty. Sorry if I said super rude things Friday night, I was just very emotional and being drunk didn't help. I just miss you/us and am cranky about it" (we used to use "cranky" with each other all the time). She responded saying "I know and it's ok".

When she came over to drop off the movie from her car, I stayed calm and acted confident/cocky, she seemed to like it and was smiling/bashful. I said a few things to her:

-I still really like you, you know?

-Maybe we can be friends one day down the line, but I know we need time and space right now.

-I'll be here for you if you need anything.

She told me to have fun at a concert I'm going to tonight (that I had asked if she wanted to come to earlier), wished me luck at a doctor's appointment today and said "I hope the movie works!" as I was walking away. I told her I'd let her know how my appointment went (it was an appointment she had been wanting me to get for a long time that I agreed to as soon as we reconnected). It was a nice good bye.

Last night as I was going to bed I wrote down all the hurtful things she did and realized how she was just using me and not caring about my feelings at all. She tried to act like we were just hanging out as friends and I shouldn't be surprised that she went back... .she knows that's not true. She came back saying she wanted to give us a shot, she told me she was deciding between me and being single not another person, she told me she knew my feelings were important, she held my hand and would talk about babies and a future together. She told her co-workers & mom she was "seeing how things" went with her ex. It wasn't just us being platonic friends, she knew that. I planned to send her no update on my appointment.

I woke up and I missed her despite knowing what she's done... .half way through my appointment I texted her a preliminary update, she responded right away with "that sounds good!". Gave her the full update afterwards and said if you're bored tonight and want to come to the show, lemme know - I didn't expect to go from hanging out everyday to not at all" (but I used some slang etc. that we would use, it was informal and unemotional). She replied asking about some details of my appointment and said she had a sporting event tonight - a part of me just wants her to be mean and ignore me or say "We can't hang out, I told you that". I responded to the questions and told her "it's weird being at work today, I used to be all excited to have a missed call from you. I'll shut up now  "

Once again, hoped she wouldn't reply or would deny me, but instead she did and said "and shad it" - another cute thing we used to say. I know we're over, I know she doesn't love me, but I could certainly see her recycling back again. She seems to really be afraid to cut me off completely, maybe it's because she still wants me as Plan B, maybe it's because she grew to really like me again over the past few weeks as a friend, maybe she respected me going off on her and calling her out on her BS or maybe she's just too afraid of conflict to say "stop talking to me".

One important thing I noticed: the texts I sent her today were me just being my fun and joking self. For the first time, I wasn't ridden with fear as I sent them nor did I crave a response. In retrospect, I realize I had been very nervous texting the past 3 weeks. I'm no longer scared of losing her because... .I already have. Seems like a small morsel of progress.