Could what I did for Christmas for her have pushed her into isolation?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

So, gf decided she didn't want anything for Christmas from me because "I've done plenty for her this year" and she wanted to "do something for me for a change"

However, I'm glad I didn't go with that because despite saying the above, she would drop hints about the kind of things she wanted. Her kids all chipped in and bought her the ring she really wanted and I bought the matching bracelet.

On top of which I got her a diamond heart necklace and at the very beginning of our r/s she kept going on about wanting some sparkly converse. I know that was something she talked about through all of last year so I got them too. Was a good job too because Christmas Eve, she was a little down and upset because she hoped there would be a shoe box under the tree (there was, I just wrapped in differently to surprise her)

So for Christmas I got her everything she wished for and she was over the moon. Then that evening, after the events with her daughter, there was a u-turn. She seemed rather sad because of what she got for Christmas and I'm wondering if that ate away at her just adding to the guilt and shame. She loved her gifts and even wore them out to work to show them off but I can't help shake the feeling that it contributed to the latest episodes of silent treatment.

It's times like this when I really struggle with understanding the disorder. Has anyone else experienced this or something similar, especially around gifts?

[Ripped Heart]

So, gf decided she didn't want anything for Christmas from me because "I've done plenty for her this year" and she wanted to "do something for me for a change"

However, I'm glad I didn't go with that because despite saying the above, she would drop hints about the kind of things she wanted. Her kids all chipped in and bought her the ring she really wanted and I bought the matching bracelet.

On top of which I got her a diamond heart necklace and at the very beginning of our r/s she kept going on about wanting some sparkly converse. I know that was something she talked about through all of last year so I got them too. Was a good job too because Christmas Eve, she was a little down and upset because she hoped there would be a shoe box under the tree (there was, I just wrapped in differently to surprise her)

So for Christmas I got her everything she wished for and she was over the moon. Then that evening, after the events with her daughter, there was a u-turn. She seemed rather sad because of what she got for Christmas and I'm wondering if that ate away at her just adding to the guilt and shame. She loved her gifts and even wore them out to work to show them off but I can't help shake the feeling that it contributed to the latest episodes of silent treatment.

It's times like this when I really struggle with understanding the disorder. Has anyone else experienced this or something similar, especially around gifts?

[Rainbow777]

Hello Ripped Heart,

I sympathize and empathize and have numerous times asked myself the same question regarding my BPD adult daughter.  Why does she pull away when I try so hard (yet imperfectly) to offer her consistent acts of love and kindness and when everything seems fine?  Who knows. 

I am coming into the place where I am recognizing that I have to open my eyes of awareness to prevent myself from taking all of this so harshly and therefore, to protect myself. It's been going on a very long time.  I am starting to understand that practicing peace and practicing acts of unconditional love during the times' the dragon's head comes up from the pit,' raises my own energetic vibrational frequencies and leads me into a life of greater abundance. Hopefully, these practices on my part will also work to help heal my daughter's core issue of abandonment and deep struggles with self-worth.  I believe, for her, this tremendous challenge, will be the impetus to cause her to reach for higher ground.

We've heard that God works in mysterious ways. Slowly, I am beginning to see that 'all' circumstances, those that are good and those that feel, at the time, like having acid thrown on your heart, are, in actuality, ALL circumstances leading us into a greater and greater good.

It's a lot to get my head and heart around, but I believe this unbelievably gut wrenching and heart breaking challenge might actually be, as odd as it sounds, a strangely-wrapped opportunity for deeper riches 'for all parties' than what appears and feels like living hell on the surface.  My challenge is to look at it from a deeper level and try my very best not to let my ego rule the day despite the episodes of neglect and isolation (the silent treatment) and the emotional and verbal abuse.

May your heart know a greater sense of peace in the new year to come~  Rainbow777

[Gaslit]

So, what did she end up doing for you?

It sounds like you played your part in being a good mind reader. She said she didn't want anything, but dropped hints that she did, and was happy you gave her what she wanted, but was soon unhappy about it.

Sounds like a no-win situation.

You can't help but wonder if you caused her silent treatment, while I can't help but wonder who gives the silent treatment to their bf after getting the presents she wanted?

I would respond to the silent treatment in kind. You are sad, but I think you should really be mad. If you can't buy your own gf Christmas presents without her giving you the silent treatment, that does not sound like an awesome relationship.

And to answer your question about gifts. Yes, I experienced something similar. But the reaction was much delayed. She would be thrilled about presents, and then months, years later, blame me for buying her presents, while in a fight unrelated to presents. She was also the worst gift giver, but expected great gifts.

So, did she get you anything?

BTW, if you had not given her anything, I feel pretty sure she would have been upset about that.

No win.

[patientandclear]

Again, Ripped, I think you are losing track of your own completely legitimate choices here. You have withdrawn from her (blocked her number and on FB) because you found evidence of infidelity. I can only imagine how hurtful that must have been, especially given how thoughtful you are towards her, as evidenced by the gifts you chose for her.

Taking your three current threads together, it feels like you are almost dissociating. (I have had serious dissociative episodes since the end of my BPD r/s, so I don't find that scary, but it is telling: it's a trauma reaction where the brain shields you from too-painful information.)  She harmed and betrayed you and you just learned this. You took your time responding to her because you wanted to be intentional abou your communication and not react in shock and hurt. Fair enough. But now there are two other threads about why SHE is staying away and what you might have done wrong.

My sense is you are in a LOT of pain over the betrayal you just learned about; and are very addicted to this woman. That is super tough. I know. I'm just urging you to notice that your reactions are to try to turn the responsibility for the problem on you, probably to make it manageable and controllable.

[Ripped Heart]

Rainbow - many thanks for your response, it's a conundrum I've not yet been able to solve. I need to start taking some of your advice and learn to practice peace. I really hope things work out between you and your daughter and that you find the riches you are so deserving of.

Gaslit - She bought me gifts, they were random but she kept telling me there was a theme behind them. I did see the theme, it was her attempt to show me she knew me and the things I liked. For example shower gel with coffee extract because I like coffee. A framed photo of my football teams stadium and such forth. They weren't things I asked for and I can be difficult to buy for but it was her way of showing she was trying and wanted me to know she understood me. For that I was extremely grateful and thankful it really meant a lot to me.

Patientand clear - More words of wisdom that I'm extremely grateful for. You are very correct in me turning responsibility of others back on myself. It's something I started to explore with therapist last week and will continue with tomorrow. I do take responsibility as a way to avoid conflict, even if it means putting myself at risk in the process. I am in a lot of pain right now and I can only imagine she is also feeling a lot of that pain herself so the way I feel is "who am I to further add to that pain?"

As for disassociating, I would have to agree with you on that one too. I'm ex-military and have served in some very nasty places so part of that is trained behaviour. It was a protection mechanism we were taught as soldiers so when things really hit the fan, we could keep focus and continue with our task. It's a survival instinct, much as it is to my gf which is part of the frustration because there are things she does, that I do understand but she backs away and shuts people out thinking nobody understands. If I try and approach her about it, she backs away even more because it's visible. So again, it's a no win situation.

[Hawk Ridge]

Sorry to briefly hijack this but, Rainbow, I would love to hear more.  Could I ask if you would expound in your thoughts in another thread?  I would love to know more details... .I am trying to get in that same mindset.   Thank you

[patientandclear]

Rainbow - many thanks for your response, it's a conundrum I've not yet been able to solve. I need to start taking some of your advice and learn to practice peace. I really hope things work out between you and your daughter and that you find the riches you are so deserving of.

Gaslit - She bought me gifts, they were random but she kept telling me there was a theme behind them. I did see the theme, it was her attempt to show me she knew me and the things I liked. For example shower gel with coffee extract because I like coffee. A framed photo of my football teams stadium and such forth. They weren't things I asked for and I can be difficult to buy for but it was her way of showing she was trying and wanted me to know she understood me. For that I was extremely grateful and thankful it really meant a lot to me.

Patientand clear - More words of wisdom that I'm extremely grateful for. You are very correct in me turning responsibility of others back on myself. It's something I started to explore with therapist last week and will continue with tomorrow. I do take responsibility as a way to avoid conflict, even if it means putting myself at risk in the process. I am in a lot of pain right now and I can only imagine she is also feeling a lot of that pain herself so the way I feel is "who am I to further add to that pain?"

As for disassociating, I would have to agree with you on that one too. I'm ex-military and have served in some very nasty places so part of that is trained behaviour. It was a protection mechanism we were taught as soldiers so when things really hit the fan, we could keep focus and continue with our task. It's a survival instinct, much as it is to my gf which is part of the frustration because there are things she does, that I do understand but she backs away and shuts people out thinking nobody understands. If I try and approach her about it, she backs away even more because it's visible. So again, it's a no win situation.

Hi again.  Just wanted to note that turning the responsibility onto yourself isn't just a conflict-minimization strategy.  It's a way of making the hurt seem more controllable.  Because if you caused it somehow, you can fix it.  Right?  You know you can trust yourself to do what is needed to save the relationship, because you know how much you care.

The thing is, you didn't cause the infidelity.  It's something she likely will engage in no matter how close to perfect you are as a partner.  If you haven't, you might read MaybeSo's many posts chronicling her heroic attempts to be such a perfect mate that her partner would discontinue these behaviors.  She has taken radical acceptance to an art form.  She is amazing at it.  She loves and respects her guy wBPD and has profoundly altered her own reactions to try to be a better partner.  And ... .he still forms intimate relationships with others.  Scarily, it really isn't something you can control or stop through your own behavior.  It is her coping mechanism for fears that originated long before you ever met her.

I ended up not being able to accept that part of the man I loved with BPD.  I don't respect it and it really hurts me.  And that's how our relationship ended.  He does that, he apparently needs to do that.  Without judging, that really doesn't work for me.

I will add in a little extra: I do actually judge when someone profoundly hurts people who love them over and over, and doesn't take the necessary though very hard and painful steps to try to avoid that in the future.  My ex has rolled on and identically harmed other women since me.  I don't actually think that is OK.  But even if I were entirely non-judgmental: how he behaves does not work for me.  Like the woman you love, my ex was almost never mean to me.  He just left, and gave his love to others after asking me to care profoundly about him.  So I get how confusing it is and how hard to identify it as abuse.

[Ripped Heart]

patientandclear, could I please give you a job as my conscience 

Everything you have said so far makes a lot of sense and I'm really sorry to hear about your struggles too. I hope that some day I can have the same strength as you do in terms of being able to judge others in that way. That's a part I usually fall down down, I can understand right from wrong, and judge others on their actions but then I feel guilty for doing that because unless I've been in their shoes, I can't possibly understand what they are going through.

Some of that is on me, I have Aspergers so have spent a lifetime of understanding what it is like to be "different" and to not be accepted for something I had no control over. It's where the confusion lies with me, because I've spent many years observing, learning and trying to understand much of what others take for granted. I've had those years of black and white thinking and other similarities. I lost out on relationships in my teens because I struggled to read signals and couldn't interpret body language. Over the years, it got better but it's still something I struggle with from time to time.

Again with emotions, I can still go into emotional overload which again over the years I've got much better at. I guess that's one reason why I try and make it more manageable, to protect myself as much as others. My external expressions don't always match my internal feelings and sometimes I don't know how to externalise especially if the logic doesn't match the emotions. I guess for me, accepting responsibility is a lazy way for me to deal with things and perhaps not the right coping mechanism.

As for me not causing the infidelity, I know you are completely right in what you say. I can't make her do anything she doesn't want to do and it's her freedom of choice. However, there is another part of me that thinks that perhaps if I had put more effort in certain places, communicated more and asked her what it was she wanted, wondering if I misinterpreted signals or body language that keeps me going around in a loop? In other words, could I have been more fulfilling?

I also took on a caretaker role at a very young age, neither of my parents were around so I was left to take care of my younger sister. There was some resentment at that age because I went from being a child to having to be the adult literally overnight. I took care of all my own needs as well as those of my sister so never wanted or needed too much myself. By doing that, I learned how fulfilling it was to take care of others and by doing so, I was content.

However, exBPD/NPDw completely undid a lot of that because nothing I did was ever enough, I was constantly criticised for not doing enough and she also used my Aspergers against me, sent me articles showing that I could never love her the way she needed to be loved. I'm a lot further down the scale than some, in that I am very self aware and unless I tell people, they can't actually tell unless my "quirks" start to show. The more I did to "prove" myself, the more critical she was, the more drama was created and eventually that was my undoing. I did everything I possibly could but it wasn't enough, the logic was there but I still questioned myself as to whether she was right and I was the one not seeing it. We started seeing a joint therapist initially, his take on it was that it wasn't me. The reason being, she went in and asked him to "sort me out",  I went in and asked him to "sort me out".

I guess this time around, I over compensated in a lot of areas partly because of some deep seated fear I still had and perhaps I was still trying to seek acceptance. It's another thing my T has touched on (she works with both Aspergers and PD's) I work so hard to try and adapt to others but very few have ever really worked to adapt to me. It's a powerful statement and one I think about quite a bit, because I know she is right. I do try hard to fit in and gain a level of acceptance for who I am and in terms of my past 2 r/s that acceptance has been mirrored back but as soon as the mask falls, I find myself in no mans land and unable to process what it going on.

Another issue around my Aspergers, is that I need to have a routine. If you ever watch Big Bang Theory, Sheldon takes it a little OTT with his "Agreements" but it's the same kind of principle. I process through logic and patterns and any deviation along those lines can be a struggle too. So when you have someone who is impulsive and the other end of that scale, I find it difficult to judge them knowing I'm sat on the other side of the scale and my routine may make them feel the same way in terms of a struggle. So a yes/no response is much better suited to me than a "read between the lines" but then I feel selfish asking for that as I know others are different and that might not be something they are capable of.

[patientandclear]

That's really insightful, Ripped.

So it sounds like you have overcompensated for your Asperger's, to the point where you second-guess your own reactions to almost everything  your partner does.  You think maybe you caused it, or maybe you are mis-interpreting.

I am such a second-guesser and I don't have a superficially objectively good reason like that ... .so I can only imagine how tempting it is to take it on yourself (either you have misunderstood, or you could have prevented the harmful action by being more pleasing/a more accurate reader of her emotions).  Man.  That is a huge potential trap for you.  Compounded by all of our desire to achieve control over something that doesn't make a lot of sense and hurts a ton, by deciding we are the cause and we will therefore be able to fix it.

You just CANNOT bleach out all of your own feelings on the theory that you are the cause of anything that feels wrong.

I can say that, as you recount her reaction to Christmas (and, frankly, her selfish approach to Christmas, from what it sounds like), and her infidelity ... .I don't think there is ANY chance you are the cause or you are over-blowing the hurtful actions.  If anything you are discounting things she does that hurt you (and others) to a pretty extreme degree.  So just ... .you don't need to go any further down that rabbit hole, OK?

This is why I think maybe MaybeSo's posts would be interesting for you to read.  She too has bent over backwards to learn to accept her partner as he is.  Not to control him.  She has thought and re-thought through her own role in the r/s.  His behaviors are fundamentally the same.  I think this might help you to see that you are NOT the cause of your partner's damaging, sabotaging behavior.

Your T sounds very insightful.

[Ripped Heart]

That's really insightful, Ripped.

So it sounds like you have overcompensated for your Asperger's, to the point where you second-guess your own reactions to almost everything  your partner does.  You think maybe you caused it, or maybe you are mis-interpreting.

I am such a second-guesser and I don't have a superficially objectively good reason like that ... .so I can only imagine how tempting it is to take it on yourself (either you have misunderstood, or you could have prevented the harmful action by being more pleasing/a more accurate reader of her emotions).  Man.  That is a huge potential trap for you.  Compounded by all of our desire to achieve control over something that doesn't make a lot of sense and hurts a ton, by deciding we are the cause and we will therefore be able to fix it.

You just CANNOT bleach out all of your own feelings on the theory that you are the cause of anything that feels wrong.

I can say that, as you recount her reaction to Christmas (and, frankly, her selfish approach to Christmas, from what it sounds like), and her infidelity ... .I don't think there is ANY chance you are the cause or you are over-blowing the hurtful actions.  If anything you are discounting things she does that hurt you (and others) to a pretty extreme degree.  So just ... .you don't need to go any further down that rabbit hole, OK?

This is why I think maybe MaybeSo's posts would be interesting for you to read.  She too has bent over backwards to learn to accept her partner as he is.  Not to control him.  She has thought and re-thought through her own role in the r/s.  His behaviors are fundamentally the same.  I think this might help you to see that you are NOT the cause of your partner's damaging, sabotaging behavior.

Your T sounds very insightful.

That seems to make a lot of sense. It can quite literally be a double edged sword. I do second guess my reactions and thoughts trying to identify a pattern within it and whether it's something I missed.

Again, referring to Big Bang Theory, a lot of fun is made at Sheldons expense around not being able to understand sarcasm for example. Sarcasm is something I have difficulty with too but on a different level. If I'm told or understand that someone is being sarcastic, I learn through observing their body language, tone of voice etc... .I literally study that person inside out, so the next time I'm aware. Same when it comes to jokes too and occasionally I will ask for clarification if I feel comfortable around that person.

The reason I find it a double edged sword though is that I choose to do that in order to understand, I actually feel guilty if someone else were to do that to me, kind of like I was being a burden because I know the time and effort it takes to learn that. If anything, I feel more for d14 because I've always suspected she might be too. Something her mother was adamant against initially. However, d14's uncle was diagnosed with Aspergers too so she gets hit the gene from both sides of the family. D14 is very comfortable around me and her uncle because we are on her "wavelength" so much of what I learn is to try and pass on so she doesn't struggle in the same way as an adult.

As far as discounting, I also spent most of my life being bullied for being "stupid" or clumsy. Standing up for myself just made things worse and in the end I turned the tables and stopped JADEing. If someone believed I was "stupid" I let them believe it. I have abilities of my own that come so easily to me that can others years to learn so my view of the world is that excel in areas others don't and they excel in areas I don't. For example, a simple question like the one above might seem obvious to many people but I'll be at a complete loss. However, not many people can write a complete working software package in their head. Or understand the inner workings of quantum mechanics and quantum physics. I know that some of my "skills" have intimidated people in the past so I have dumbed it down over the years in an effort to appear more "normal"

And here lies the problem, I was so used to nasty comments and abuse at a young age that I allowed it to happen. I reached a point where as long as I knew who I was, nothing anyone could say or do could hurt me as I wouldn't let it. I would often get into trouble for things I hadn't done either at school or at home. So eventually I stopped feeling that too. It eventually became easier to take on the responsibility of others because I could let it slide off me. I guess for me it was a form of acceptance, I was sometimes being used by others and I was aware of it. But I think for me at that age it was more important to be accepted because all I ever wanted was some normality.

The army kind of instilled that kind of thinking too. There, if a person makes a mistake, they have to stand and watch on as everybody else is punished so it adds that level of guilt. It brainwashes you into putting others needs before yourself by doing that, in a section of 8, you forget about yourself as 7 other people are watching out for you just as you are 1 of 7 watching out for them. You learn to cover up your friends mistakes so as to avoid punishment yourself.

I think it's a combination of all of the above as to why I assume too much responsibility and something I'm beginning to unravel along the way. I guess in some ways I feel that in order to protect myself and those around me, I take on the pain. I think I know subconsciously that I'm not the cause of their behaviour, because that is their freedom of choice to which I only have control over my freedom of choice. It just feels blurred at times because my head may tell me I'm not responsible but my heart is following a very different logic and still trying to find and process the emotion that goes with the thought.

I will most definitely read MaybeSo's posts and see what angle she took as given what you have stated, will most likely give me further insight and maybe help along this journey 

[FoolishMan]

That's really insightful, Ripped.

So it sounds like you have overcompensated for your Asperger's, to the point where you second-guess your own reactions to almost everything  your partner does.  You think maybe you caused it, or maybe you are mis-interpreting.

I am such a second-guesser and I don't have a superficially objectively good reason like that ... .so I can only imagine how tempting it is to take it on yourself (either you have misunderstood, or you could have prevented the harmful action by being more pleasing/a more accurate reader of her emotions).  Man.  That is a huge potential trap for you.  Compounded by all of our desire to achieve control over something that doesn't make a lot of sense and hurts a ton, by deciding we are the cause and we will therefore be able to fix it.

You just CANNOT bleach out all of your own feelings on the theory that you are the cause of anything that feels wrong.

I can say that, as you recount her reaction to Christmas (and, frankly, her selfish approach to Christmas, from what it sounds like), and her infidelity ... .I don't think there is ANY chance you are the cause or you are over-blowing the hurtful actions.  If anything you are discounting things she does that hurt you (and others) to a pretty extreme degree.  So just ... .you don't need to go any further down that rabbit hole, OK?

This is why I think maybe MaybeSo's posts would be interesting for you to read.  She too has bent over backwards to learn to accept her partner as he is.  Not to control him.  She has thought and re-thought through her own role in the r/s.  His behaviors are fundamentally the same.  I think this might help you to see that you are NOT the cause of your partner's damaging, sabotaging behavior.

Your T sounds very insightful.

Wonderful post.