I can handle the BPD but can I handle the cheating?

[adrianab]

Since I discovered the BPD and the cheating around the same time, I kind of bundled both of them together. Thinking that the BPD was mainly to blame, that it was all the anger and frustration between us that pushed her into his arms, I thought if we got the right help then she wouldn't need to cheat anymore. I thought that things were getting better after I confronted her with evidence of the cheating and she finally admitted it the first time. But getting to the truth is like peeling layers of an onion, and I feel that there is more truth to be discovered still. And when I caught her the second time, that was it for me. I told her it was over and I'd be seeking a divorce this time. And I meant it.

She cried and begged me to stay. Said that I was the only person who truly knew and understood her, especially now that I understood her BPD and was handling her better then I had ever done (which is why the second time pissed me off even more). She said she would do anything if I forgave her, and she would finally agree to go for therapy. So I gave in once again, with the condition that if it ever happened again I was gone.

The thing that gets me is she is never really sorry for cheating. She explained that it was just a fantasy to her, living life as another person or character, and to her it wasn't real. She didn't even love him and felt bad for stringing him along. She said she didn't fear any consequences of being caught because to her it wasn't real. And that she couldn't help herself. And even what I thought would be a breakthrough in our relationship, she still acts as if I'm the one with the problem, although it was her that cheated.

I'm so confused right now, I'm not sure whats the truth or what's more lies. She has not had a libido for years now. Medically its explainable as we did a blood test and her testosterone is very low. So she swears that they never got past kissing and oral, as she didn't desire sex, only the attention that he was giving her. In some ways that makes it worse because I could get over it if it was a craving for the physical. But the emotional connection that she was looking for to replace me makes me feel worse. She says that she initiated the relationship, both times. And she said that there was no future in that relationship, and that he didn't love her.

Deep down I think she was in love with him or the idea of that relationship at least. I read through a series of texts between them over 3 months and it was heartbreaking for me. It seems very real to me. Although I have forgiven her for it twice now, I still think she is secretly angry that I confronted him and told him not to contact her anymore and ended it the first time. Has she fallen out of love with me and in love with him. Is she in denial of her feelings for him or telling me the truth, is she just sticking around because I take such good care of her now? From time to time a reminder of her lies pop up and I get sad and quiet. And this seems to annoy her, which she claims makes her feel guilty. But I'm human, don't I get a chance to be sad?

If you read any website about reconciling after cheating, she has not even done one action. So she does make it harder for me to move on. She did delete his number off her phone after the second time, but to me that doesn't mean anything. He could contact her anytime. And although we are supposedly reconciling, is it just a waste of time. Is our marriage just the best option for her right now, because she claims to not feel anything, dead inside and that includes her feeling towards me. Maybe the damage is done, and I'm just chasing a lost cause.

I still want to make this work, and without the BPD I'm pretty sure this wouldn't have happened in the first place because I made a lot of mistakes throughout our marriage because I didn't understand what she was going through, and I recognize reconciling is going to be harder with the BPD. I feel like she has painted me black and not able to trust me again to allow me back into her most private life. Do we just need more time to heal, or will she get better after the therapy and realize that she still doesn't love me and she is living a lie with me? We have had several moments where she has opened up and talked to me for the first time in many years, but she always puts her mask back up and I feel the distance again.

Any suggestions?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[elemental]

How long has it been since you found out she was cheating?

[SweetCharlotte]

I know this is the Staying Board, but my gut reaction is that you don't deserve to live under a cloud of doubts. If you look back over your post, the number of questions is overwhelming. You have forgotten to put question marks on some because there are so many. From this, I get the impression that you are riddled with doubts, insecurity and foreboding.

I would not recommend overlooking or forgiving infidelity once, let alone twice. And, as you state, she is not truly repentant or contrite. Even if this specific man is out of the picture, even if she has no sex drive, these are not guarantees. I don't think your need for love and commitment is met by the relationship in question.

Concerning infidelity, I recommend the "Wayne and Tamara" website. They've covered the topic many times. I think you might find some supportive pep talks there to help you get on with your life.

Here is their Cheating Page:

www.wayneandtamara.com/topiccheating.htm

[dontknowanymore]

I have been through the same thing (though there was sex - unprotected as well) and I feel much the way you do.  I told myself I have forgiven her but deep down inside I have not and probably never will.

When we have discussed it I am equally at fault according to her and at no point has she ever just put down the wall and said I'm sorry... .

I agree that is there was no BPD that things may be different but I realize that I drew a boundary line (regarding cheating) she broke it and I just moved the line.  For that I am at fault... .

[elemental]

That site is disheartening to read.

I guess what I mostly discovered about being cheated on is this:

Give immediate consequences. I didn't when it happened and then a few other betrayals happened.

If I could do anything different, I would have disengaged immediately. It's about boundries, I think, and protecting your own self.

for example the boundry I have now and am now having to enforce: I can't be in a relationship with a man who goes over to the house of the woman he cheated on me with and spends the night whenever he wants to.


My guy misled me about where he was new years eve. He told me he was having to be out of town working and today he told me that New Years Eve he went over to his ex wifes apartment and spent the night with her and his two kids.

I feel betrayed and cheated on again. His argument to me is "you act like I am doing it on a regular basis."

He is doing it on a regular basis, 2-3 times a month. For me, even one time is not ok.  So today, I told him my truth: his actions of staying over there are disrespectful to our relationship and to MY feelings after he cheated on me with her.  I feel cheated on.

So I left.  This time I left.  He knows why. I didn't tell him why. I simply removed myself from the house. I am willing to have the relationship if I am treated with integrity and these damaging acts stop on a permanent basis. But I can't make him do it. I can leave though so I am not suffering the pain of betrayal, humiliation when his ex mocks me for it,  and standing there stewing in it as he ignores safe and caring behavior.

So in effect, I am done while this happens.


To the point, what consequences have you imposed on your wife? She is doing and acting however she wants. You can make a life watching her and chasing her around "catching" her. She has to want her own self and life with you to be different. She has no motivation. She did what she wanted, she is doing what she wants and you are begging her to stop.

Stop begging, start enforcing your boundries with this, if you have some, so you will feel safer and more in control of your own life.

Sorry this is happening to you, it sucks terribly and I am aching right along side you. 

[dontknowanymore]

Ah man I could spend all night reading and aching along with all of you.

I need to do a better job controlling myself on this issue.  My wife said something about "well what if I meet someone... . " - in an emotional state I said "I beat the crap out of him when I find out who it is".  Her instant response was "Well he is a pretty big strong guy", my immature response "Well give him a call, let's get it over with, I hope he is as tough as you think he is"

It was childish I know but I didn't know how else to respond.

She then told our counselor she thinks I am dangerous... . C'mon, seriously?

Then a few days after she came and asked that if we move on that i let her go and don't do anything... .

It almost slipped... . "Well I thought he was a big strong tough guy... . " - I didn't say it though... .

I am like you, just don't know how to stick to a barrier that I draw.

[elemental]

You stick to it by ignoring the provocation.

She is manipulating you into an upset.

You are taking the bait and she gets to control you and your responses. She gets her drama fix and  you get to feel helpless, messed up and jerked around.

[waverider]

Cheating to a pwBPD is on a par with all issues. They are symptoms of  their personality. They got caught, they say whatever reaction to put it behind. It's no longer an issue as a stand alone incident. They have not changed in their mindset. The environment has not changed to prevent it happening again. Without enforced boundaries nothing will change.

Why do they do it? Because they truly believe it is nothing to do with you, it is non of your business. It is compartmentalized, just as if it was a private interest or hobby and non of your business. It is not because of anything you may, or may not, have done. Lack of empathy means the guilt is not enough of a brake against satisfying their immediate impulses.

The fact that you know they are not truly remorseful can hurt you just as much as the behavior itself. That is BPD. Hence you have to look after what you feel in your soul rather than what would normally be considered right, wrong or even fair.

Can you handle the cheating knowing that it is not in your power to not only stop it, but more importantly live without fear of it?

[elemental]

waverider, isn't the crux of a relationship, a marriage... fidelity to it?

I can't live with the cheating.

My guy says I am oh so important.  He watched me go to pieces in grief and anger over and over. I am at that state now and he tried to convince me that it is ok to do this?

I am not advanced enough to be at a point of being so secure in my self that I can accept cheating. It isn't in my head. It isnt an insecure suspicion or maybe ... . but doesnt seem to be an issue now as opposed to a past issue. I am literally, if I stay, being forced to watch helplessly while he does it and insists to me there is not  problem.  I am pretty sure there is one.  If I stay in it while he is doing it, then I am going to get broken because I did not conserve myself.

[adrianab]

Thanks for everyone's comments, its nice to know your not alone. I knew in my gut about the cheating around 6 months ago, but only got proof around 2 months ago, she started contacting him again about a week ago. Before showing her the proof it was a bunch of lies every time I brought it up, straight to me face without hesitation.

I'd like to think I have put up a firm boundary, and that is I'm not taking cheating from her a third time. I appreciate Waveriders insight, it does help to see the perspective of a BPD mind. I think having that firm boundary has helped, the good thing to come out of it is my wife is agreeable to therapy now, so maybe there is a chance we can put it behind us. Some of her behavior has also changed, and she has started to warm up to me again.

The thing that I find most interesting about the whole thing now that I'm looking back at it, is that she practically created and lived an alternative persona. She got a new job and the new friends she made within this guys circle at her previous work place (she quit just before I found the evidence the first time) are people that she normally would hate and not hang out with. She even uses a different name with them, using her middle name. I know deep down, like all her previous friendships it wouldn't last, she would find some reason or another to fall out with them. I mention this because I can see her changing again, back to the persona that I know, which is probably closest to her own true self. The way she talks, the language she uses and the music she listens to has all changed since the ultimatum.

I'm going to keep giving it a try for a couple of months, and see what comes out of the therapy. But I'm also going to seriously set my boundary this time and I hope she knows that I'm not going to shift anymore even if she messes up.

[elemental]

what is your boundry and how do you intend to enforce it? It helps to know ahead of time.

[waverider]

waverider, isn't the crux of a relationship, a marriage... fidelity to it?

I can't live with the cheating.

Exactly, the point being made is that the problem is not what has happened it is that the conditions that caused it have not changed, despite any apologies or reconciliations. So if you find yourself in this situation you have to look at it through that perspective.

A fence once crossed is less daunting to cross again, especially if a person cannot own any guilt about it, but only learned that they got away with it before without consequence. You start getting into the area of intermittent reinforcement

[adrianab]

elemental - my boundary would be no more cheating. I wont accept it in this relationship anymore. Even emotional cheating counts, she admitted in her mind, sex was cheating and everything else was acceptable. I have made that very clear to her and so far I've seen a positive response. I'll take this as a win for now, and keep the momentum going. Not to live in the past, but focus on the present each and every day. In fact my wife likes to remind me to focus on every next minute because that's how she hard she finds getting through each day.

waverider. Can you explain intermittent reinforcement?

[waverider]

A common explanation is that which keeps gamblers hooked. They can lose/lose/lose/lose/lose/win.  They have been taught if they keep trying they can eventually win, so they don't give up.

What this translates to in BPD terms is that your boundaries can be beaten, all it takes is to keep challenging them, there is always hope persistence can win the day.

To counter this you have to make sure your boundaries are important enough for you that you will not back down otherwise it will be even harder to enforce any boundaries thereafter.

If cheating is your boundary there needs to be no backing down, otherwise the value of that boundary will be compromised.

[adrianab]

Thanks again waverider!

[ShakinMyHead]

IMHO, THE TRUE EVIL OF "INTERMITTENT REINFORCEMENT" IS THAT, NOT ONLY DOES IT KEEP THE NON ENGAGED IN THINKING THAT THE "REWARD" IS EVENTUALLY COMING SOON, BUT IT ALLOWS THE NON TO BELIEVE THAT THERE IS ACTUALLY SOMETHING THEY ARE DOING THAT ILLICIT'S THE POSITIVE RESPONSE. IT CONVEYS TO THEM IF THEY WORK HARDER, THEN THEIR BPDPARTNER WILL IMPROVE AND IMPROVE. IT FOOLS THE NON INTO BEING ENGAGED IN HELPING. IT IS THE GLUE IN THE DEATH DANCE. WHEN IN ACTUALITY, THE NON HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RANDOM REWARD THE BPDPARTNER DECIDES TO GIVE. IT'S USUALLY OUT OF SOMETHING WITHIN THE BPD PARTNER, AS OPPOSED TO AN EXTERNAL MOTIVATION OR A CARING ACT FOR THEIR PARTNER. BUT THE INTERMITTENT TIMING OF REWARD, JOINED WITH THE NON'S MALIGNANT HOPE, KEEPS US BOUND AND WORKING VERY HARD FOR THAT NEXT REWARD, THAT MAY COME FEWER AND FEWER TIMES OVER THE YEARS UNTIL NONE AT ALL. BUT BECAUSE THERE WAS THAT REWARD EVERY SO OFTEN, WE ARE TIED THERE WAITING. THESE TESTS AND RESEARCH WERE ORIGINALLY DONE WITH THE MONKEYS AND THE LEVER IN THE CAGE. THE MONKEY WOULD PRESS THE LEVER AND A PELLET OF FOOD WOULD COME OUT. THEN HE WOULD PRESS IT AGAIN HUNDREDS OF TIMES AND NOTHING WOULD COME. THEN A PELLET MIGHT COME EVERY 1000 PRESSES. THIS WAS ENOUGH TO KEEP THE MONKEY WORKING FOR THE PELLET AND THINKING IT WAS IN CONTROL. THE 2 PELLETS A DAY CAME INTO HIS CAGE DAILY ANYWAY, BUT HE WAS MADE TO BELIEVE THAT HE WAS IN CONTROL OF IT BY SLAMMING THE LEVER ENDLESSLY. THIS RESEARCH ULTIMATELY ENDED IN THESE MONKEYS BEING SEVERELY EXHAUSTED, STARVING AND DEPRESSED AND EXPERIENCING A SYNDROME CALLED LEARNED HELPLESSNESS, WHERE THEY DIDN'T EVEN TRY ANY LONGER. THE POINT ISN'T THAT OUR BPD PARTNER CHEAT, THE POINT IS THAT THEY HAVE NO COMPASSION FOR WHAT THAT DOES TO THEIR PARTNER. THEY ARE ONLY INTERESTED IN FILLING THE VOID WITHIN THEMSELVES THE MOMENT THEY FEEL IT. WE CAN'T WATCH THEM ALL THE TIME, AND THEY ONLY REALLY EXIST IN THE MOMENT THEY ARE IN. WHOEVER IS IN FRONT OF THEM IS WHAT IS REAL TO THEM. IF THEY ARE CHEATING WITH SOMEONE, THEN WE ARE THE FANTASY AT THAT MOMENT, IT'S US, THE PARTNER THAT DOES NOT EXIST. THIS IS THEIR NARCISSISM, THEY EXIST IN THE MOMENT THEY ARE IN, AND WE WANT THEM TO REMEMBER US AND OUR FEELINGS. REMEMBER THEIR PROBLEM WITH OBJECT CONSTANCY. THIS IS WHY THEY CAN JUSTIFY CHEATING. ALL THAT THEY WANT TO DO IS FILL THE VOID IN THEIR GUTS, AND THEY FEEL ENTITLED TO THAT, BASED ON THE ORIGINAL CORE WOUND FROM CHILDHOOD. THEIR WHOLE LIFE IS A SORT OF PAYBACK. IT'S NOT ABOUT CHEATING. THEY CAN RUIN US WITH SEX, MONEY, ALL SORTS OF TRUST ISSUES AND UNDERMINE THE TRUE SAFETY OF WHAT A MUTUAL RELATIONSHIP IS SUPPOSE TO PROVIDE FOR BOTH PARTNERS.  Hugs, SMH

[elemental]

that blew my brain.

[SweetCharlotte]

IT ALLOWS THE NON TO BELIEVE THAT THERE IS ACTUALLY SOMETHING THEY ARE DOING THAT ILLICIT'S THE POSITIVE RESPONSE.

The word illicit is an adjective . . . you want the verb elicit (to evoke or draw out).

There's no apostrophe on verb forms.

Capitalization makes your post more difficult to read.

[MissyM]

BPD can be a codiagnosis with sex addiction.  My dBPDh is a recovering drug addict and sex addict.  Without recovery for sex addiction, with treatment from a CSAT and attending 12 step SA meetings, there will be no marriage.  There is no sex in the first 90 days and since he had a relapse (went on a date but no sex while we were separated) then he has to do the 90 days again and go through something called emotional restitution before we can be intimate.  If there were not a sponsor and therapist calling him on exactly how wrong infidelity is, there is no way his BPD brain would be able to recognize how wrong what he he has done is.  (What I understand from the many therapists we have seen) Just working on the BPD will not stop the cheating, it is the root cause but the behavior changes have to happen before the disorder can be effectively treated.

[goldylamont]

whoa! ShakinMyHead that blew my brain too Next time go easy on the capitalization--it will be easier to read and honestly the content of what you're saying is interesting enough that it doesn't need to be in all caps. i never really looked at intermittent reinforcement in this light so thank you.

[SweetCharlotte]

BPD can be a codiagnosis with sex addiction.  My dBPDh is a recovering drug addict and sex addict.  Without recovery for sex addiction, with treatment from a CSAT and attending 12 step SA meetings, there will be no marriage.  There is no sex in the first 90 days and since he had a relapse (went on a date but no sex while we were separated) then he has to do the 90 days again and go through something called emotional restitution before we can be intimate.  If there were not a sponsor and therapist calling him on exactly how wrong infidelity is, there is no way his BPD brain would be able to recognize how wrong what he he has done is.  (What I understand from the many therapists we have seen) Just working on the BPD will not stop the cheating, it is the root cause but the behavior changes have to happen before the disorder can be effectively treated.

I'm glad there is a detailed program like this for sex addiction. It is not something a couple can handle on their own. I hope that it goes well for you both, MissM.

[MissyM]

Very true on the intermittent reward.  We have discussed this a lot in therapy and my eldest was a research scientist at NIH, it is like being hooked on crack.  

[hergestridge]

ShakinMyHead:

Good point! Simply put BPD people are not social animals although they will have us believing the opposite. They are completely self-contained. The fact that that the melt down under external preassure had nothing to do with them being social. They don't interact. They just try to avoid true communication and reciprocity at all cost until this gets them into conflict and then they blow up.

The number one frustration of living with a BPD person is not being able to predict or influence the mood of one's partner. It's like the weather... but there's no weather report.

[adrianab]

So I installed a handy app on my wifes phone, I highly recommend it to anyone: bosspy.com

Anyway after she promised to cut off the relationship with the other guy, things between us have not been this good for years. Opening up about the cheating seemed to relieve herself from the guilt and she didn't lash out at me from the guilt. We're able to have a lot more open and honest discussions about personal stuff. We started having sex again, which was more connected and not just physical, so I'm much happier nowadays.

I still found her texting the other guy occasionally through the spy app. So not wanting her to know I'm spying, I waited for the "guilt" trip and then took her up by starting a discussion about it. I told her I can tell when shes slipped back into that persona (which I actually can tell). She still tries to lie her way out of it, but gets trapped and finally admits it and I know shes really trying her best to quit it, but I can tell that it is like an addiction.

She claims she doesn't know why she still texts, its not sexual but she claims she needs the emotional boost of feeling wanted by this other guy. She feels rejected when he doesn't text her, so that's why she still does it.

So still working out what to do, there are more good days than bad now, so I'm just going to see where this leads and hope she gets over it given some time. But having the spy app helps so I know its not getting serious again and I can trust her to go out without me around.

[SweetCharlotte]

So I installed a handy app on my wifes phone, I highly recommend it to anyone: bosspy.com

I'm OK with nanny-cams, but I stop short of this degree of invasion of a partner's privacy without their knowledge and consent. The web of deceit is already growing, because now you must lie about how you know she is texting the other guy. I don't see this headed to a good place. Is it even legal?

My uBPDh offered me an app that would have allowed me to track all of his activities. We are L/D but fidelity has not been an issue. I said "no thanks" because I think when he is in dysregulation he will change his mind and feel that it is invasive. We just reached the point where we can be friends on Facebook again without driving each other nuts.