My DIL won't let up and I am at my limit

[Elizabeth22]

Last thread for reference, there are older threads that tell most of my story too.

Hello

So, after not speaking to me for several months, DIL decides to call Friday and she left a message with my husband that she knew would upset me. It's a family thing and some of it's gossip and she did it under the guise of trying to give me a 'head's up' about a situation.

He gave me the message, cue me getting (VERY) upset, but just keeping the discussion between him and me, I did not call her back. He didn't even want to tell me. It's a very sensitive subject.

So, she calls again Saturday, to give me the same exact message, wanting to hear me actually be upset, I'm sure. She was acting like nothing else has happened between us, so I did too. I did not want to talk to her but I didn't know when exactly to get off the phone because she started going into her personal issues and how everyone is mean to her blah blah. I finally told her I had to go get some things done. I was empathetic about 1 of her situations, but mostly when she would finish one of her VERY long stories, I would just sit there silently.

My son called today, and I asked him if he knew what happened to the check I sent my grandson that she forged and cashed. He said she spent it on my grandson. I said I was not so sure I believed that, especially when they had made an agreement they wanted me to give it to him in person (it's his birthday present) and apparently she did not even tell him that I sent it or sent anything and I guess my son didn't either. Anyway, that's too long to get into again and it's not the point, even tho I am furious. She's done this to other family members and I told my son about some of that today, along with some other things he didn't know, because I am fed the  up.


This is the issue: I don't want to talk to her anymore. She brings nothing but misery and I can feel she is trying to get to me. I have been pretty good with the poker face with her, and wish to continue that way.

I have tried all the flowery language and empathy and walking on eggshells and whatever it takes to get along with her and I can't do it anymore. I have tried to forget the terrible things she's done to my son and grandsons, and I can't. Her constant kicking up the dust just makes it worse.

I know it's not realistic to never speak to her again, but I need a long break.  I am pretty sure she is going to keep trying to get me to react to something.

So, I thought that next time she calls and as many times as it takes after until I can deal with her again I am just going to say I can't talk right now. That's it. I don't have anything else to say to her.

I am not really giving my son a pass, but I realize he does what he has to, to get along with her and I told him I didn't think it's fair that he is in the middle. He said something today that made me think he may want to try seeing me and bringing the kids to me without her, but I will worry about that later.

I don't want to set her off by detaching so apathetically, but honestly, I don't care how she feels right now, I just need some peace. This feels like death by a thousand paper cuts. I feel like I am alway sitting here just minding my own business and her need to start drama is impacting me very negatively. My entire weekend was consumed by it, I was having panic attacks and just generally anxious.

So, "I need to go" or "I can't talk now". How bad is it to do that to a pwBPD? What should I expect? It's all I've got right now.

Thank you
Elizabeth22

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Elizabeth22]

Sorry, I forgot to post the last thread up there
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=335994.0

[FaithHopeLove]

Hi Elizabeth
I have been following your heartbreaking story and send my love and support. The phrase that keeps coming to my mind comes from Alanon - detach with love. There is nothing wrong with saying 'I don't have time to talk right now." It is an "I' message with no blame and is all about your health and your boundaries. Sure a pwBPD may twist that into a personal rejection but what is the alternative? Sacrificing your own health? Self care first. You have my support.

[livednlearned]

I don't want to talk to her anymore. She brings nothing but misery and I can feel she is trying to get to me. I have been pretty good with the poker face with her, and wish to continue that way.

My pwBPD is quite manipulative and fights in subtle and (sometimes) undetectable ways, too. I remember reading somewhere that people who manipulate are fighting for a position. By the time you realize you're in a fight, you're on your way to losing.  

I could see how giving her a poker face is quid-pro-quo. She is using a deception technique to aggress against you, and you are responding with one of your own -- meaning, you are furious and enraged and don't want her to know.

Sigh. I get it, believe me.

With emotionally immature people in my life, I notice that when I detach, they tend to reach out. If I reach toward them in return, they pull away.

With SD22, if she reaches toward me with anything that seems like intimacy, I have learned it is almost always a manipulation of some kind. I think it's the only way she knows how to try and have a relationship, and it's almost always a one-up scenario, which triggers a fight or flight response in me. I sense the aggression.

My T's recommendation to me is to keep my responses and interactions brief. Sometimes just a 'huh,' or a shrug or "interesting." I don't go out of my way to hurt SD22, I also make sure my feelings and needs are a priority and take care of them as best I can.

Maybe the reason you want to detach right now is because you feel your emotions are at a breaking point. If DIL sees this, do you think she'll feel delight in dysregulating you?

I have tried all the flowery language and empathy and walking on eggshells and whatever it takes to get along with her and I can't do it anymore

That's a lot to hold in. I can see why resentment has been building.
 

I know it's not realistic to never speak to her again, but I need a long break.  I am pretty sure she is going to keep trying to get me to react to something.

Do you plan on staying in touch with your son?

I thought that next time she calls and as many times as it takes after until I can deal with her again I am just going to say I can't talk right now. That's it. I don't have anything else to say to her.

"I can't talk right now" sounds like engaging with her. Perhaps it isn't a break you want so much as some specific insights and tools to help minimize the manipulation?

"I need to go" or "I can't talk now". How bad is it to do that to a pwBPD? What should I expect? It's all I've got right now.

With SD22, I do not want her to get under my skin. That's my goal. I will not let her get under my skin. It's not to ban her or remove her or block her or hurt her, it's for me to protect myself.

I have practically created an inventory of things SD22 does and have different ways of responding so I can protect myself. It's based on IF/THEN for changing challenging interactions. IF SD22 does x, THEN I will say y. It probably seems overly engineered ... I did this with my T because I needed specific phrases for specific scenarios that kept coming up.

For example, IF I am alone with SD22, THEN I don't ask questions.

IF I receive a text message from SD22 that feels manipulative, THEN I don't respond.

IF I am alone with SD22 and she is in a crisis or has a problem, THEN I will encourage her to reach out to her dad/sister/grandma/the Internet/her therapist/her psychiatrist etc.

IF SD22 discusses other family members with me, THEN I change the topic or tell her I do not triangulate.

IF SD22 arrives without consulting me, THEN I will not make time in my schedule to do things together.

It seems very rigid to see this written down. It's also allowed me to have a more flexible relationship with her, so that I am not constantly vigilant when she's around. I'm mainly watching for the IF/THEN moments that tend to activate my fight/flight response.

[PeaceMom]

LNL-
Great practical examples here. You seem to be quite proactive in your approach which alleviates so many unknowns. My H and I are continually shocked and caught of guard be the odd, intolerable behavior. For example, DD 19 uBPD came home after work Friday and was then walking out the front door w/a packed bag saying “I’m going to spend the night with Austin, my Best Friend from 7th grade”. My H’s jaw hit the floor. We have not heard mention of this guy in 3-4 yrs. He was just a random friend from a class in school. I felt as though I must respond so I said “Dad and I are not ok with you spending the night with men” and she skipped out the door. Just a little sliver of a typical day in the life here.

[Elizabeth22]

Hi 
Thanks for the replies, I will be back soon oxox

[Only Human]

Hi Elizabeth! I'm glad to hear you'll be back soon - thanks for checking in!

~ OH

[Elizabeth22]

Hi, thanks for the replies and support. 
Things have been kind of difficult lately. Husband talked to his therapist and he said there is no way to have a relationship with her, nothing she says will be sincere and husband and I are guilty of a lot of 'shoulds'. We dont say should to her and my son, we say it to each other, about them. Like, 'they should at least say thank you', 'they shouldnt be so difficult to be around', etc. Those are pretty light examples, there are more serious ones.  Practically no one wants to be around her because its so uncomfortable.
Honestly, I am feeling very down and have been for a few weeks, because I know I have to try to find a way to accept this, and just cant. Husband and I had a fight over it becaue I was grouchy and snapped, and he snapped back. He was holding a lot in. It's ok now tho.
Faith, thank you for the kindness you always show, you too OH
L and L, you as well , and to answer some things you asked -
Maybe the reason you want to detach right now is because you feel your emotions are at a breaking point. If DIL sees this, do you think she'll feel delight in dysregulating you?

I want to detach because she does not have one redeeming quality, and she basically lives to manipulate and irritate people.  I am emotional right now, and she would delight in some sort of emotional response from me. The therapist touched on that and said to not give her one, BPD's TRY to evoke emotional responses, dont give in.
Do you plan on staying in touch with your son?  Yes
"I can't talk right now" sounds like engaging with her. Perhaps it isn't a break you want so much as some specific insights and tools to help minimize the manipulation?
I'm sorry, I dont understand what you mean by telling her I cant talk is engaging with her, would you suggest something different? I dont want any tools to deal with her, there is no dealing with her. I am always reminded of something a former therapist told me "you have absolutely no obligation to be around someone who is abusive to you". I will extend that to my son and grandchildren and my husband as well. She has been abusive to all these people and more. My husband's therapist has questioned if we should even try to have this relationship, he has said its ok to walk away. He also said that if we choose to engage, we need to let them know trust has been severely broken and they will have to earn trust back. I havent done that, I dont want to sound like I am setting conditions with her, who will flip out, or my son, who has enough going on right now.
With SD22, I do not want her to get under my skin. That's my goal. I will not let her get under my skin. It's not to ban her or remove her or block her or hurt her, it's for me to protect myself.
I am not trying to hurt her, but considering she has been arrested twice for abuse and neglect of my grandchildren, cheated on my son and stolen money from me and people in my family, her feelings or how she receives my behavior is not something I am worrying about. I have spent loads of time hand holding and reassuring with her, and I am just done.
IF SD22 discusses other family members with me, THEN I change the topic or tell her I do not triangulate.
I have not been good at this, I am always reassuring her someone does not hate her, and I did it again last time I talked to her. This needs work on my end if I do end up talking to her. She gets very manipulative here tho. If she talks about someone being 'mean' to her and you actually try to explain what the other person's pov is (in cases where I know the person and know what their pov is ) she will go silent and then not speak to me for months. If you dont agree with her that she is being victimized, its sort of the same reaction. So, I can imagine saying I do not want to talk about it will just do the same. There is not any good outcome here unless she is validated, which I have to refuse to do.
It seems very rigid to see this written down. It's also allowed me to have a more flexible relationship with her, so that I am not constantly vigilant when she's around. I'm mainly watching for the IF/THEN moments that tend to activate my fight/flight response. I dont think it seems rigid, I think its a good idea to have a plan and be consistent with it.  You also have to do what works for you.
With SD22, if she reaches toward me with anything that seems like intimacy, I have learned it is almost always a manipulation of some kind. I think it's the only way she knows how to try and have a relationship,
Same thing happens here, but I dont know if she is trying to have a relationship, because she doesnt actually have relationships, everything is one sided. I can even see this emerging with my younger grandson/her son. As he grows out of a younger stage, where she no longer finds him to be little and cute and what she wants, she does not seem as interested in him. Everyone is there to serve her.
I could see how giving her a poker face is quid-pro-quo. She is using a deception technique to aggress against you, and you are responding with one of your own -- meaning, you are furious and enraged and don't want her to know. I am not actually trying to be deceptive here at all, tho I know what you mean, I think. There is literally no point in engaging with her, to let her know what I feel, even if it is said kindly. The therapist said this last week. No point. She is not capable of genuine feelings or actions.

So, this is where my head has been at. If I seem angry or short, please trust that is is not at anyone here. The therapist saying we have to accept this as is and stop 'should-ing' is completely true, and a bitter pill that has to be swallowed. I honestly thought if I tried my hardest and she could see that I was being kind and supportive (especially in areas where she knew it would be hard for me) that this might just get a little better, but it didnt. I know I cant control her and that was not my goal, my goal was just to have even slightly better experiences with her. I guess that meant something happening on her end too, which is me having unrealistic expectations.

[Lollypop]

Hi Elizabeth

The therapist saying we have to accept this as is and stop 'should-ing' is completely true, and a bitter pill that has to be swallowed.

I was a judgmental person. I’m also a do-er and a problem solver. These traits put me in such dodgy ground, particularly with my son. I was always telling him what to do, how to do it. Even when I didn’t, he could feel my criticism.

It’s not easy to change our own behaviours!  I started by replacing the word “should” with “could” and it helped me in my other relationships too.

Being non-judgmental is a tough one, we’ve got so much ingrained in us from our own experiences and cultures. I was so righteous! I lean into the idea that we all make mistakes, including me and I try to see things from a different perspective if I can. Stealing, lying, manipulation - now, that’s a tough one! My son did these too and they seem distant memories now and I feel nothing but acceptance of what is.

I still find myself judging others but in the main I try to be more open hearted, generous and warm. Now I totally get what you’re saying about your DIL. It’s sad that you’re in this situation and I feel sorry for you both and your son - everyone seems caught up in some way.

You’ve certainly tried your best to align yourselves to your son’s choice and your DIL. It sounds like you are tired of “bending?”  and can see you can’t change either of them. Acceptance is a tough pill to swallow.

You can stop this merry emotional go round with no contact and goodness only knows it must be tempting, and even necessary if you feel the way you do. You don’t need permission to live your life in the way you want to and actually I’d go one step further and say that you can demonstrate “a life well lived, one that you are happy in and one where you take better care of yourselves by putting yourself first”.

Your son will watch and hopefully learn from you.

How do you plan on dealing with his visits and conversations? Do you think you can find some middle ground to talk about?

Hugs

LP

[livednlearned]

Honestly, I am feeling very down and have been for a few weeks, because I know I have to try to find a way to accept this, and just cant.

Bill Eddy, an author who writes about high-conflict people (HCPs) with personality disorders says these are not just difficult relationships, they are the MOST difficult. You've been through a lot, E22.

Eddy defines HCPs as people who have a target of blame, recruit negative advocates, are persuasive blamers, and have a personality disorder. He writes that not all people with personality disorders are HCPs; however, all HCPs have a personality disorder. Your DIL sounds like she is an HCP, which is the toughest of the toughest type of PD.  

I dont understand what you mean by telling her I cant talk is engaging with her, would you suggest something different?

I mean that if you do not want to engage with her, it's ok to disengage. Full stop. With high conflict people, negative engagement is still engagement. My ex uBPD husband is an HCP. When I divorced him, I didn't discuss it with him. I just up and left. Through his actions he lost the privilege to be given advance warning.

my goal was just to have even slightly better experiences with her. I guess that meant something happening on her end too, which is me having unrealistic expectations.

I agree with Lollypop that you do not need permission to live your life in the way you want to.

Have you gone no contact with your DIL before? I'm sorry if you already mentioned this elsewhere and I missed it.

[Elizabeth22]

Hi LP  

I dont think I am being judgmental, that has such a negative connotation and its not what the therapist meant. Sorry if I didnt explain that better.  He meant dont expect anything but dysfunctional behavior from a dysfunctional person. He thinks our expectations are more than reasonable and we have bent over backwards to try to make this work, which is why he has suggested no contact.  

My son actually appreciates it when I am silent about some things, he knows me well enough to know what I would say and he recognizes my efforts  to remain silent as a positive thing. She has told me so many things I have not reacted to, like in detail description of cheating on my son, that if she sees me as judgmental, its a figment of her overactive imagination. I did lecture her about how what she did was extremely dangerous and she is lucky she did not get raped and made her promise to never do something like that  again, for her own safety. But about the cheating? My reply? "No one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes." I did not feel the need to share my opinion about that with her.

My son has sort of indicated trying to get together without her, and I honestly think its for her benefit mostly. I think she is so wound up that she cant get under my skin that my son is afraid she will have a meltdown in my presence or pick a fight with me. He already knows I won't fight back. I am no shrinking violent, I do quite well at standing up for myself, but she is not worth it.
We do talk about other things, like politics and current events. My son is very intelligent, he was IQ tested when he was in school, his life could have gone so differently, for the better. 

Hi LandL

So, I did a little reading on HCPs, thank you, and you are correct. She is really into the recruiting too. Wow. I can think of at least 4 people, that I know of, that she has spoken to about me negatively in the past few months. She does that to a lot of people tho I think I might be her main target.

Thanks for explaining the disengagement. That is a tough one for me. Like, if they each had their own cell phone and number and I knew who the call was coming from, I just wouldnt answer hers. But, my son is not allowed to have anything of his own.  She answers emails about my grandson's treatment in the facility in my son's name, from his account. She asks, as him, to include her in things with my grandson, to his treatment team. She listens on the other end of the phone during his calls when he is using the house phone. Frankly, if this was my daughter and her husband was treating her like this, we would all be calling it a domestic violence situation and I would be thinking of ways to get her out. I already offered him a way out, he declined, and now seems to regret it. He said he made the wrong choice.

Have we gone no contact before? Yes.
1. Son initiated it when he was first seeing DIL and she thought a convo my daughter and I were having out in the open on Facebook about an inanimate object was about her and all hell broke loose. I am ashamed to say I let her bait me on that one, in public. I was shocked at what she was saying, she was telling me to go kill myself and some other extreme things. I finally took it to private message and she was just insane. I called my son when I found out they were getting married and he invited me, only after asking her permission.  
2. Son initiated it when she abused older grandson and after listening to him make excuses for her for hours and then turn on me, I lost it and said some  really bad things about her, and he told me to not call over there anymore. We didnt speak for 3 years, have been speaking again almost a year now.

I know she had been working on him both times, but he made his own decision.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[LoveOnTheRocks]

Thanks livednlearned, for the info on Bill Eddy and HCPs.  I am reading on the board, which comforts me, because others discuss what I am living, too, and it helps me accept a little more, learn a little more, and be ok with myself for how I react or dont react and every other "thing" that takes place in my head and heart.

My DD20 is a HCP.  I have been thinking lately, as I read on this board, that there must be some sort of "spectrum" of BPD...and my DD20 is on the "bad" end of the spectrum.  She is out of control and lives her life abusing me (the most) and others (as applicable, in her day to day existence), suicidal, constantly in her head and emotions to the point that she has no productivity as a person.  Anyway, with my thinking she was on the "very sick with this personality disorder" spectrum, learning there are resources for us, such as Bill Eddy, who recognizes what I am thinking and who speaks about it, will be a useful tool for me. I am going to look into his material...

I have done a new post about my own situation.  I am new to reading this thread, but pretty much every post here resonates with my life circumstances.  Having someone in our lives who is close family or attached to close family, literally screws up our life, as in, normal and peaceful and "regular living" goes away, and every day chaos seems to become the order of the day.  This has robbed me of life itself.  I am devastated.  I am not happy to learn there are so many others out there who are also devastated, or struggling and trying to work with the person or work on getting away from the person...that is a spectrum unto itself...or a theme in the discussions here...
but having this to deal with, at all, is so ...UGH.

[Elizabeth22]

I forgot, there are 2 other times she stopped talking to me, initiated by her, because she couldnt get what she wanted from me in terms of items, babysitting and me not agreeing someone was mean to her.