Daughter was Arrested

[raytamtay3]

My DD14 was arrested last night for unauthorized possession of a controlled substance (xanax) which she stole from my mother who has been living with us for two weeks and who is on hospice. She got to them before we could lock them up.  She has been charged with a crime in the fourth degree and two counts of disorder.

At the police station she was relentlessly running her mouth to the police officers. Calling them pigs, saying things like "I should have run so I can see that dude over there jog after me". Asking if they keep the drugs to use themselves. Telling one of the police officer she hates him the most and to shut the f up, etc. She was finger printed and now has a mug shot.

She told me I need to get her a lawyer. I said I'm sorry but I will not. That if the only way I can get her the help she needs is for her to go to jail or a residential treatment center, I'm going to do it. Then she called me every name in the book in the police station. Sorry but validation went out the window last night. Told me how the kid she got arrested with (he was charged with possession of mariuanna with the intent to distribute), that his parents are "cool" and will help him to get out of it.  I'm sorry, I have never been and will never be an enabler. She made her bed now she has to lie in it.  My goal is to save her from herself at whatever cost.

Right now I'm just impartial to it all because I'm so burnt out. I've been waiting for something like this to happen. So part of me is relieved that maybe NOW she can get the proper help whether it be going to juvi or a residential treatment center because something's got to give, and depressed and scared that I'm going to be the one who has to pay the massive fines she is sure to get.  How I keep going I have no idea... .

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Rapt Reader]

Hi, raytamtay3  

I'm really sorry that all of that has happened! It's a really scary and horrible thing to see our kids run off the rails, and do things that they should know are wrong and harmful to them... .You are right, though, that the best thing now would be for her to get the help she needs, and sometimes the legal system can provide that when all else fails.

Here's a link to the Legal Information on this site (it's not just for people leaving their spouses--it's also about family legal matters); you can post the information in this thread over there, and there will be many senior members who respond over there who could help you know what to do now... .

Leaving Board: Family law, divorce and custody

Also, I'm not sure if you've seen this Workshop, yet, but you may find something in there that could help you, also:

What You Need To Know If Your Child Is Arrested

Hang in there, raytamtay3... .We are here for you and want to help  

[raytamtay3]

Hi, raytamtay3  

I'm really sorry that all of that has happened! It's a really scary and horrible thing to see our kids run off the rails, and do things that they should know are wrong and harmful to them... .You are right, though, that the best thing now would be for her to get the help she needs, and sometimes the legal system can provide that when all else fails.

Here's a link to the Legal Information on this site (it's not just for people leaving their spouses--it's also about family legal matters); you can post the information in this thread over there, and there will be many senior members who respond over there who could help you know what to do now... .

Leaving Board: Family law, divorce and custody

Also, I'm not sure if you've seen this Workshop, yet, but you may find something in there that could help you, also:

What You Need To Know If Your Child Is Arrested

Hang in there, raytamtay3... .We are here for you and want to help  

Thanks. Valuable info. there.

[Rapt Reader]

I hope it helps, raytamtay3  

With your daughter safe and sound right now (hopefully!), it's a good time to do some reading to be ready for the next step with her. How are you doing? Sometimes just getting a handle on what is going on can help us get centered and calmer. I know this is very tough; my own son was arrested at the end of February 2013, and what was worse was that we (his Dad and I) were away on vacation! Do you have some sort of support system right now to help you in person?

Please keep us updated, and know that we are here for you... .

[raytamtay3]

I seriously feel like I'm going to either have another stroke or pass out. My nerves are so shot. I'm dizzy, my hands are shaking. It's not a panick attack or anything. I'm just exhausted. I know this will pass. It always does. But it's scary.

[Rapt Reader]

raytamtay3 

That is horrible; I've had that kind of agitation before (yeah, BPDson-related!) and it's no picnic! Can you find ways of calming down? Someone to call up and talk to? Some hot tea or cocoa (what is it that makes you happy?)? Is anyone with you right now?

When was the last time you spoke with your daughter? Is she still in custody? Do you know how she is doing? I know you said you won't be getting her a lawyer (will she be assigned a Public Defender?); is there anyone involved in her incarceration you can talk to, to at least get an idea of how she is and what to expect to happen next? Would doing some "action" tasks related to her situation make you feel more in control?

That's the kind of stuff that I do when under pressure and my whole wide world is crashing down around me: I get into action mode and see what I need to be aware of and what needs to be done next... .Please hang in there 

[raytamtay3]

raytamtay3 

That is horrible; I've had that kind of agitation before (yeah, BPDson-related!) and it's no picnic! Can you find ways of calming down? Someone to call up and talk to? Some hot tea or cocoa (what is it that makes you happy?)? Is anyone with you right now?

When was the last time you spoke with your daughter? Is she still in custody? Do you know how she is doing? I know you said you won't be getting her a lawyer (will she be assigned a Public Defender?); is there anyone involved in her incarceration you can talk to, to at least get an idea of how she is and what to expect to happen next? Would doing some "action" tasks related to her situation make you feel more in control?

That's the kind of stuff that I do when under pressure and my whole wide world is crashing down around me: I get into action mode and see what I need to be aware of and what needs to be done next... .Please hang in there 

Since she is a juvinile, in my district they release to the custody of a parent pending a court date.  Believe it or not, just venting here helps tremendoulsly. I get very reclusive when I'm in these moods. Can't and don't want to verbally talke to anyone. I always found it better writing out my thoughts.


Haven't talked to DD today yet. But we have cameras and I check in periodically. She's watching tv. Plus my mom lives with us and keeps an eye too.

[Rapt Reader]

Ahhhhh... .So you are at work right now? That's got to be tough on you! I'm glad to hear that she seems to be all right; I hope your Mom is up to this... .Maybe they get along well, so it isn't too stressful on her? I know it may look like your daughter is unconcerned about her future, but I'd bet that underneath her cocky exterior (if she has one right now) she is a little girl scared to death.

I hope the links I gave you are helping; do you actually know what happens next? Do you have a contact in the legal system or elsewhere that can keep you updated, answer questions, help you out? I'd really love to know what the next step is going to be; and just maybe she'll get the treatment she needs at last... .Keep us in the loop, OK? 

[raytamtay3]

Ahhhhh... .So you are at work right now? That's got to be tough on you! I'm glad to hear that she seems to be all right; I hope your Mom is up to this... .Maybe they get along well, so it isn't too stressful on her? I know it may look like your daughter is unconcerned about her future, but I'd bet that underneath her cocky exterior (if she has one right now) she is a little girl scared to death.

I hope the links I gave you are helping; do you actually know what happens next? Do you have a contact in the legal system or elsewhere that can keep you updated, answer questions, help you out? I'd really love to know what the next step is going to be; and just maybe she'll get the treatment she needs at last... .Keep us in the loop, OK? 

While my mother's heart is broken from DD stealing the meds from her, they do have a pretty good relationship in that my mother knows how to talk to her without her making her rage.

I believe the next step is waiting for the papers from court. I have no desire to talk to anyone in the legal system because I'm not fighting this. When I get in front of the judge my husband and I plan on telling it like it is and asking that the judge help us help her by recommending RTC.

[Rapt Reader]

Oh, I wasn't suggesting fighting the charges; they are what they are, and your daughter needs help and maybe now she'll get it. I was just wondering if you knew what was going to happen next so at least you could plan a strategy; for me, just having a handle on what is going on is somehow soothing. But, that could just be me 

Sounds like you do have a strategy: keep out of it and let her suffer the consequences, and hope that they include some sort of mental health and substance abuse treatment; is that it? If so, maybe you can find out if there is some sort of Dual Diagnosis Program available for teenagers; as you may know, that is the treatment that finally helped my son with all of his Substance Addiction, Suicidal Ideation and other mental health issues. I recommend a program like that very highly... .Good luck, and good luck to your daughter   

[raytamtay3]

Last night I told my husband (DD's stepdad) to "take the wheel" because I don't have any fight left in me. So when DD's bio dad (my exh) called me after DD called him crying that I was going to let her go to jail and started telling me that "you can't let our daughter go to jail" "you have to get a lawyer", DH took the phone.

History. Ex gave me full custody of DD last year because he couldn't handle her anymore.  Up until that point, we shared 50/50 custody (one week on one week off). Accept for last weekend, he even refused to take DD every other weekend since May! So DH got on the phone and told him that we are handling this. DH and EX have never spoken up until this point as ex refuses to.  Refuses to talk to the man helping raise his daughter... .but I digree... .Anyway, DH said that this is OUR house and OUR rules and since she lives with us, we are making the decision. Well ex started in on how this is between him and me blah-blah-blah and DH told him that he hasn't even seen DD since May and that's when ex went off calling DH all kinds of names, which is typical of him. DH hung up on him but not before telling him then you take her. Ya right like that would happen. Ex knows and I'm sure loves what we are going through.

DH just forwarded me a text he just received from DD basically cussing him out and threatening to make his life a living hell. I fully expect world war 3 again. It's going to get ugly! I expect DD to rage when I get home and ultimately end up hitting DH. She's gotten close before, but instead licked her hand and smeared it on his face.

Pray for us.  BTW DD has some "traits" from her dad.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Rapt Reader]

I'm really very sorry for all of this trauma you are going through, raytamtay3 

I promise to keep you in my prayers, and I hope tonight won't be as volatile as you fear. I truly hope that a good treatment program for your daughter can be located, and that the court will send her there so that she can't say "No."

Keep us updated, OK? Good luck... .

[kellygirl601]

   my heart goes out to you.  Im surprised my BPD dtr 20 has not been arrested, although

she did call the police when I took away her cell phone.  Now she is 20 and is always saying that I don't like her.  I tell her I love her, she says yes, but you don't like me... .  I understand being worn out by it.  I also hid from everything when things were really bad. I hope things get better.

[BioAdoptMom3]

I am so sorry!  My heart just aches for you, her mom who wants nothing more than to see her little girl get better and live contentedly!  My prayers go out to you and your family as well!  I am praying that this will lead her to the help she needs!   

[raytamtay3]

I sit here at the hospital waiting since 11 pm last night for my insurance company to open to have dd admitted yet again to a bebavorial health center. Sunday night she took off in some dudes truck (reported her as a runaway) and didnt come home until 9 last night where she proceeded to text me while my mother and i was shopping, that i make her want to kill herself every day and that she cuts because of me. So i called 911 as i took the threat of killing herself seriously. Police came out, she assaulted one and now in addition to possession of a controlled and dangerous substance, she now has aggrevated assault added to the mix. She texted positive for marjuanna and cocaine last night and we now wait to go to the center which does no good but will at the very least keep her safe. She was like a wild animal last night. It took two police officers to subdue her which they almost couldnt even do. She lunged for me at one point and they tackled her to the ground cursing up a storm. Why is she so angry? Why does she hate me so much? I do t do anything. And im so tired of them all thinking this is a family communication issue when it is not. There is something seriously wrong with my daughter and she needs serious serious help. Also when the police tackled her a bottle of prescription pills prescribed.for her, but of which she refused months ago came flying out of a camera case bag she tried to run into the bathroom with. I believe she had plans to od last night. And lasty, we found a picture on her cell that she took last wednesday, they day of her first arrest, with about six cuts on her arm all bloody.

[raytamtay3]

Still at hospital as they r having difficulty finding a bed.at a bwhavorial health place. Im not allowed to leave since she is a minor. Im exhausted.

[Rapt Reader]

raytamtay3 

I'm really sorry that this is happening, and I know you must be so exhausted and fearful for your daughter... .I truly hope they find a bed for her somewhere soon; are they checking out any Dual Diagnosis Programs? I know that they just need to find someplace that takes teenagers with BPD and other issues; a DD Program would be helpful, but I do know she needs to find a bed somewhere though... .

Please hang in there, raytamtay3... .I am happy you gave us an update, but so sorry that this is what is happening. Please be strong, remember Radical Acceptance. Sometimes when things are at their lowest, that is when the whole world turns around in the right direction. Maybe this will be her "hitting bottom" moment, and she will realize she needs help and will be willing to get it. If you are in the position to speak to her, remember to be compassionate and empathetic and use Validation of her feelings and situation, and let the professionals handle the rest (all the hard stuff). At this point, what else can you do? The "hard stuff" is all out of your hands, anyway... .Just don't give up, OK? 

My prayers are with you, raytamtay3... .

[Matt]

I know it was hard to call 911, but in that situation it was the right thing to do.

I had to do that several years ago - my son tried twice and almost succeeded.  Now he been clean and sober more than 5 years and is much healthier.  You can't fix your daughter - there is a lot of difficulty ahead - but you can make sure she knows you love her, and that will make a big difference.

[six]

WOW.

Raytamtay, I cannot even believe what you are going thru.  My eyes are tearing up reading this.  Just want to send you a huge hug and want to make sure that you know that people on this board are pulling for you and praying for a safe resolution.  I went through a lot of hell with my BPDs26 when he was a teenager, but things eventually calmed down somewhat.  This situation will improve.  Keep praying for a miracle

I was so impressed with your descritpion of your DH and how he is standing by your side and helping you especially in such a complicated situation.  You chose well!  I know at times in the past you have wondered whether he could really handle the situation with your DD but it seems that he really stepped up to the plate.  You must be so grateful for that small miracle. Hoping to hear of other ones coming you way soon   

6

[Kate4queen]

I'm so sorry you are going through this. I think you've done exactly the right things and I really hope that someone starts listening to you and your DH. That "this is a family communication issue' answer drives me nuts... .

[hopeangel]

Ramtamtay, I just wanted to say that Im SO hoping things improve for you soon! 

I have been through similar times but without the arrest, we have had the

angry tantrums, the wild animal behaviour, police acting like its just family issues, and the suicide threats and cutting. Medical staff were always very surprised how much we cared and looked at us puzzled at first meetings because dd made out we were monsters who had hurt her!

DD drove myself and my son out of our home in terror one day whilst she trashed our apartment, luckily she called herself an ambulance that day as we were too afraid to return indoors with her rage.  She drove me out of there another time and ran away a few times overnight.

We have sat in hospitals overnight with her whilst nobody knew what to do with her, and like yourself couldn't go home because she was a minor.  Our business was ruined by the chaos BUT... .

... .after hitting a few 'rock bottoms' we slowly and steadily made the climb upwards to the functional life we have today, its not perfect but it improves year upon year and its so stable now we've rebuilt the business!  I have to say truly we are coping and dd is really not so bad, it helps now we know what's wrong and she accepts it now and tries hard to get better.

I just want you to know that if you hang in there through the dark time there IS light at the end.

Im SO sorry you are in the dark place right now but please have hope for the future!  When I was in your place I didn't see any hope but now I see how much we have improved and we move forward all the time! Your life will improve also, this isn't it! 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[peaceplease]

raytamtay,

I just read this thread.  Wow, I am so sorry for all that you are going through with your dd.  Hopefully, the courts will assign an RTC.  You are doing great job trying to get your dd into treatment.  I know that it must be heartbreaking. 

You, husband, and daughter are in my prayers.

peaceplease

[scarednafraid]

My heart goes out to you.  My daughter recently went to jail too.  She's 16.  This is her 3rd arrest.  The second one, she did like your DD and was nasty and awful towards LE.  It's pretty scary stuff.  I do hope things work well and that the courts will be a good resource for you and your daughter.  I've been there and I now know there are no easy answers.  It's like driving through a tunnel and sometimes catching glimpses of light. 

[raytamtay3]

Thanks everyone. She is at a behavorial health center since last night. At least now I know she is at a safe place (hopefully).  I love how the social worker at the hospital I was staying at prior to DD being transferred over to the BHC tried to make me feel guilty by saying that the facility just wanted to let me know that DD wouldn't be home for Thanksgiving.  I told them I know. But truth be told, she wouldn't have been home anyway. She much rather be out getting high with her friends than spending time with family as she proved just recently by blowing off her brother's 6th Birthday party, a halloween party and her dying grandmother's birthday party. It was a nice try on their part though.

DD is upset with me which is expected. Told me she hoped I'd get in a car accident and die when we were heading to the BHC. Refused to see me before I left her there, etc. I'm to the point where it doesn't phase me anymore.

I'm also to the point where I am seriously considering calling CPS to have her removed from the home after this stint as I just cannot do this anymore. It's affecting my job, my DH's job, my DS6, etc. It needs to end.

[Matt]

I think it will be good to at least find out what options you have - letting her live with you or some other arrangement.

Then you will be in a position to state a boundary:  "You can live with us if X, Y and Z.  But if those don't happen you will live at this other place."

I had to do that, and it was very hard, but now my son says it was the right thing to do - since he has been clean and sober he gets it.  As long as your daughter is using - and I mean clean and sober for quite a while - as long as she is using, you can't let anything she says affect you much.  Everything she says and does is driven by the drugs (including alcohol).  She is all about her own immediate needs and wants, so you won't be able to reason with her.

Is there a residential treatment center available?

[raytamtay3]

I think it will be good to at least find out what options you have - letting her live with you or some other arrangement.

Then you will be in a position to state a boundary:  "You can live with us if X, Y and Z.  But if those don't happen you will live at this other place."

I had to do that, and it was very hard, but now my son says it was the right thing to do - since he has been clean and sober he gets it.  As long as your daughter is using - and I mean clean and sober for quite a while - as long as she is using, you can't let anything she says affect you much.  Everything she says and does is driven by the drugs (including alcohol).  She is all about her own immediate needs and wants, so you won't be able to reason with her.

Is there a residential treatment center available?

Our caseworker and her supervisor are in discussions about the next step. They think if DD continues to exhibit poor behaviour at the facility, it will make it easier for them to push for out of home placement whether that be RTC or a group home.  I've decided that I will not be calling DD for a few days. I also have it set up where she cannot call out as the BHC said they have no control over who she calls. So I'm putting a restriction on outgoing calls so she cannot reach out to her "friends". Which means she cannot even call me. We have her on camera dealing b/t/w/ Just viewed it alst night. Shows two boys with their hoddies pulled over their faces getting a bag of pills ofus. .her at our front door.  What a mess.  Oh and as far as giving her the option of doing x, y, z in order to remain in the home, we've tried that too and it's failed. She knew the potential was there as I've told her on numerous occassions that if I cannot control her and her father cannot control her that the state was going to have to come in and take her. By now you'd think she'd take my threats seriously as I follow through on what I say.  My DD does not care. Period. And that attitude was way before drug use too.

I know this all probably sounds cold. But I have to put on this facade; to "act" like I'm strong and pretend it's not killing me just to get through it. And I am all about tough love if it means at least trying to save my DD. At any and all cost. And not only my DD, but my DS, my marriage and my job. Oh and sanity would be a bonus.

I've been a pushover far too long.

[Matt]

Dealing is a serious crime of course - my son did that too - and doing it on your property puts you at high risk.  I'm not a lawyer, but I think in the US the government can do almost anything they want if they can connect you with drugs, even if you had nothing to do with it and someone else was doing it on your property.  So you have good reason not to let her on your property til you are convinced she is going to act right.

My suggestion about boundaries is not, "You can come and live with us if you promise to do X, Y and Z."  It's "Once you have done X, Y, and Z, and haven't done anything hurtful to yourself or anyone else for several months, then let's talk about you living with us.  For example, X might be "Pass random drug tests for six straight months."  Y might be "Complete a six-month residential treatment program with good reports from the staff."  Etc.

There is hope.  How she is now may not be how she always is.  But it will be a long path.  I think getting distance - like no contact with her for a few days or even weeks - is a very good idea.  When my son went to rehab, the staff said no contact with family for a few weeks - maybe 30 days or so - and after that very limited - one letter a week, one phone call a week - then later one visit a week.  It's good to make sure she knows you love her, but she needs to deal with her issues, and staying very involved with you may make that harder for her.

[raytamtay3]

Dealing is a serious crime of course - my son did that too - and doing it on your property puts you at high risk.  I'm not a lawyer, but I think in the US the government can do almost anything they want if they can connect you with drugs, even if you had nothing to do with it and someone else was doing it on your property.  So you have good reason not to let her on your property til you are convinced she is going to act right.

My suggestion about boundaries is not, "You can come and live with us if you promise to do X, Y and Z."  It's "Once you have done X, Y, and Z, and haven't done anything hurtful to yourself or anyone else for several months, then let's talk about you living with us.  For example, X might be "Pass random drug tests for six straight months."  Y might be "Complete a six-month residential treatment program with good reports from the staff."  Etc.

There is hope.  How she is now may not be how she always is.  But it will be a long path.  I think getting distance - like no contact with her for a few days or even weeks - is a very good idea.  When my son went to rehab, the staff said no contact with family for a few weeks - maybe 30 days or so - and after that very limited - one letter a week, one phone call a week - then later one visit a week.  It's good to make sure she knows you love her, but she needs to deal with her issues, and staying very involved with you may make that harder for her.

Thanks Matt. It's nice to finally converse with someone who gets it. I'm in striclty business mode with DD. And that is subject to change with or without notice, so bear with my roller coaster ride.

[raytamtay3]

Have a nice Thanksgiving everyone! I'm outta here (work). 

[pessim-optimist]

Hello Raytamtay,

I just read this thread... .I am sorry it's been such a rough journey... .

You are doing your best under the circumstances. You need to find some footing and stability for yourself and your family. Hopefully now that dd is in care of others, you will get that chance and hopefully she will get a chance at a good RTC... .

Hoping for you. 

[raytamtay3]

Advice needed.  The BHC that DD14 is in is a short-term treatment center where they basically just try to make sure they are stable before releasing them back home.  Tomorrow is our family session (first and last one apparently), and I was advised DD will be coming home.  I asked if her release was contingent upon the family session going well and was advised that yes it is.  My DH (SD to DD) was going to accompany me to the family session and we know for a fact that his being there will be a trigger for DD as she painted him black quite a while ago and he and I were going to lay everything on the table to the therapist in hopes (that's a bad way of putting it) that she would rage and being committed for a longer stay.  DD would not be able to hold back.  But I'm worried now that suppose they still release her to me and I have to drive the hour home with her in the car likely being irrate. She grabbed the wheel of my car before when she has raged (while I was driving over a bridge with DS6 in back seat). I'm pretty worried about something like that happening again.

So do I "walk on egg shells" during the session and tell DH not to come and just wait for our court appearance to try and get the judge to court order either a RTC or group home or do I go with our initial plan and let the center she is in now see what we are dealing with?

[co.jo]

I am not sure how this works in the U.S., but isn't there a social worker involved? We reached a point 14 years ago that my daughter couldn't be in our home, due to the threat to the younger children. Even then , 2 of her siblings cannot forgive her, and one deals with PTSD from those bad years.My daughter went to foster care, which she has never forgiven us for- more abandonment. but we were able to have a normal family for a while, and she did well in foster care. The behavior triggered by close relationships was under control in foster care. It was not all rosy, but I would say , because her caregiver was not so invested in her, he was able to just let her be . eventually returning to school, and doing some healthier things. The other advantage was that at last, we weren't in this alone. We had a social worker and a foster home working with us. This was a voluntary care agreement, which meant we still had the ultimate say in things.

Is this a possibility where you are? Especially with the legal implications, it does not sound like a good idea to have her back home.

[raytamtay3]

We don't have a social worker, but we have a caseworker (guess they are the same?) and while the agency she is with tries to do everything in their power to avoid out of home placement, they have come to accept that we simply have exhausted any and all services to avoid it. So we are trying to move forward with it. It seems like we have so many hoops to jump through to get there though. Or rather it's seemed.

[jellibeans]

raytamtay3

I have just read your posts and I am sorry things have gotten so bad with your dd. I think we have all been where you are at some point and it is not easy.

I am hoping she gets placement somewhere where she can get help with her drug addiction and BPD. I hoping she has hit bottom and will start to see the light. Is she ODD?

I went through a very bad patch with my dd... .the police were at our door every other week and she was so violent too. Had to put locks on my bedroom to keep her out. I am not sure what really turned her around but I think it was having firm boundaries. If she left the house without permission then she was a run away and we called the police... .if she hurt herself we took her to the ER... .I think we tried for too long to deal with ourselves and that plan just didn't work. I think you are doing the right thing by getting the police involved. If she has no respect for you then she doesn't deserve to live under your roof.

My dd16 is doing better these days... .she still has a ways to go but she has not ODed since last march and her raging has gotten better. She still struggles but I see she is more open to trying different meds etc which shows she wants to do better... .and when she know how she will. So will your daughter though I know it seems hard to beleive right now. Try to look at it as a bad patch... .things will get better it just takes some time.

[raytamtay3]

I’m back from the family session, and DD was discharged.

To sum it all up, obviously in the week she was there, they didn’t see anything “wrong with her”. Said she just seems very rebellious.  But then the social worker proceeds to say how she had a problem with one of the girls in the center that has pretty severe mental issues. And DD told me on the drive home that the girl was so annoying and that DD kept telling her to shut up or she will make her. To which the girl responded go ahead, and DD got in her face. But there isn’t anything wrong with her….

I’m so frustrated and exhausted. I’ve been through this rodeo so many times with the same exact result. Lack of communication.  Inconsistency. Blah-blah-blah.

I said I will be the first to say I am inconsistent on some things but the reason is because after trying one thing for a long time and seeing it not working, I have to try something else! So ya, if that’s inconsistency that I’m guilt of that but it’s because I have to keep trying new things to get DD to cooperate. I’ve tried rewards, positive reinforcement, consequences, validation, radical acceptance; you name it I’ve tried it. And sometimes they work, but then the ultimately fail again.

DD took no responsibility for her actions whatsoever. I’m to blame for it all. I should have talked the cops in to not arresting her like all her friend’s parents do. I said how’s that helping your friends? And how would that help you? If mommy and daddy are always bailing out their kids then the kids continue the behavior knowing mommy and daddy will be there to bail them out. But what happens when they are 18 and that’s no longer possible? How do kids learn before it’s too late? She still doesn’t get it, or want to admit she gets it.

Walking out the door I said to DD, as I have many times before, let’s wipe the slate clean and try again. If history repeats itself, things will be great for a week and then get bad again. I was once a very opptimitic person but I'm tired of always falling flat on my face.

I wrote out and read a listing of boundaries. DD went through the list of 8 relatively realistic boundaries: 1. If you use, possess or distribute drugs, the police will be called. Her response, I’m still going to smoke pot. 2. If you stay out all night without our knowledge or consent, or are past township curfew, the police will be called. Her response, I’m going to be out past township curfew because it’s stupid. 3. You are to participate in weekly therapy sessions until we and the therapist of caseworker feel you are ready to discontinue. Her response, well I guess I have no choice on that one. Hugh? Anyway, 4. You will have a tutor come to the home as opposed to performing your classwork on line. Her response, well than I’m dropping out because I’m not agreeable to that. 5. If you are aggressive with anyone in home in anyway be it verbal or aggressive actions, Dyfus (CPS) will be called and you will be asked to be removed from the premises. No response to that one. 6. You are to treat us and our home with respect which includes speaking to everyone in the house in a respectful manner, following house rules by not having anyone in the house, by not calling anyone in the home names or by making degrading comments and by not destroying property. Her response, as long as I’m treated with respect than you’ll be treated with respect.  7. If you threaten to harm yourself or do harm yourself by cutting, etc., if it you threaten to harm others, the police will be called and you will be taken to a crises center. Her response, you are the one who makes me do those things. 8. You will no longer be receiving a cash allowance for the chores around the house due to the risk of buying and using drugs, but will instead get the monetary value to be used for things such as getting your nails done, and outfit, movie passes, etc. Her response was, I guess I have no control over that one.

Do any of you have issues with your child having no concept of time? DD kpt saying "oh that was way back when" when bringing up things that have happened as early as a week ago.

I’m beat.

[Matt]

Concept of time:  A big yes, my older son has a lot of trouble with that.  An example:  He was 18 when I married his mom.  He wore one of my suits, flirted with adult women, and drank a little too much.  We treated him as an adult.  But since then - years later - when asked about it, he has told others that he was 12, or 11, or 10 when we got married, and it's clear that he is telling the "truth" - he isn't lying - he really doesn't remember.  Needless to say, it would have been a very different experience for him if he was 10 or 12 - he's not off by a year or even two - he doesn't remember that he was a full-grown adult, not a child.

Similarly for many other things - he is not able to give a basic description of his life, though he remembers specific incidents really well.  Big stuff like if I asked him, what year did you first go to prison - something I think I would remember if it was me - he can't get it right.

This is drugs.  He lived in a fog from about 12 til his mid-20s, and stuff during that period is all a big mess in his mind.  Therapy might help reconstruct it, and that would be good, but it's not the most important thing.

It's also self-serving, for someone who has done a lot of bad stuff, to consider it all in the past, so there are no consequences.  In treatment, her counselors will address this with her, and it will be hard - she'll be challenged to face up to what she has done, and make amends to those she has hurt, because if she doesn't, the guilt will make recovery harder.  But you don't need to take that on now - that's for the professionals to do when your daughter is ready for treatment.  You can just let the past go, as you are doing, and focus on here and now - that's hard enough.

(There's a great scene about halfway through "The Lion King" - Simba and the baboon - you'll know it when you see it - that I always think of whenever somebody wants to dismiss something because it's "in the past".)

The good news is, you are addressing these issues at 14 - my son never got any help til his mid-20s, and it's much harder after so many years of drugs (including alcohol).

The bad news is, your daughter is doing all the "addict" stuff - basically not taking responsibility.  Just in your note below, she is picking fights with someone weaker than her;  making vague promises that she will later deny;  blaming her behavior on you;  pushing back on reasonable rules;  etc.

I think it's very good that you set those boundaries, and they seem very reasonable to me.  Some of them aren't "If you do X, I'll do Y." statements, but it's not always easy to figure out how to structure them like that.  They're all clear and fair.  I think it's important for you to be firm and fair and consistent with them, and make sure you're 100% in synch with your husband, so she's not playing you off against each other.

But... .this won't work either, not because you're not doing it right, but because your daughter isn't committed to changing.  She might respect some of them for a while, but she's sure to push back, openly or behind your back - she pretty much told you that already.  So it's critical for you and your husband to be prepared to follow through - call the police or whatever you say you will do, do it.

This will be hard!  It was hard for me to do, especially when I knew that it wouldn't "fix" him.  Easier to say, "Calling the police won't fix him, and it will only create a bunch of drama and resentment.  I'll let it pass this time and maybe he won't do it again... .".  Baloney, of course.

The point is not that maintaining these boundaries will "work", or will "fix" your daughter.  The point is, these are ways to make your life more normal, and reduce the chaos.  And structure will ultimately be part of her recovery, when she is ready for it.

I'm sorry to say, I think you have a long way to go, but again, it's a very good thing that this is happening now, when she's 14, and not when she's 24 or 34 or 44.  It may happen, that when she is 16 or 18 or 20, she'll be doing great, and her recovery will go much easier because it started earlier.  What you're going through is a part of the recovery process, and it's important, but unfortunately it's a very early part - the part before your daughter commits to change - and this part may last a while.

Best wishes,

Matt

[raytamtay3]

In the beginning I was calling the police even when she didn't meet the curfew I set for her. It got to the point where the police were saying it was a family issue and were visibily annoyed with us, and one saying that he could cite us for DD being out past township curfew, that I stopped calling. I'm gun shy to it now.

While I wasn't disrespectful I did point out to the police officer at the station the night my DD got arrested for possession that how he said that the incidents before were a family issue to which at that time I said "with all due respect officer, while this may be a family issue now, it's ultimately going to be a legal issue so please, help us help you".  I brought it up back up and said, now it's a legal issue and not a family issue like I've been trying to avoid.

Anyway, I cringe every time I get ready to call them now. Last time they told me that DD has been a thorn in their side since we moved in and how frusterated they are at having to keep coming out.

[Matt]

Well your boundary didn't say, "If you do X I will call the police and they will do Y."  It said, "If you do X I will call the police."  That's what you have control over - what you do - so your boundary was wise.

I called the police once, to report something my son did - threatened to cut his wrists - and they had a very clear procedure for handling that - they were supposed to hold him for 24 hours for observation.  The officer that came didn't do what he was supposed to do - he let my son talk him out of it, which made things worse.  But I can't control that - I did what I believed was right, and I maintained my boundary - "If you say or do anything I think is a threat to hurt yourself, I will call 911 and report it."  So my son knew I meant it, and he also knew that the next time he might not be able to pull the wool over the officer's eyes.  So he never made a threat like that again.

Your boundaries are valid, and you have clearly developed them for the right motives - not to hurt your daughter or "win" at her expense, but to establish some sanity in your home and to provide her with structure which may help her sooner or later.  Your boundaries will probably be violated, and doing what you said you will do probably won't "work" right away - won't fix your daughter or make your life drama-free.  But it's the best strategy and will pay off long-term.

[raytamtay3]

My poor DH's head is spinning. I had him come to the family session because we all live in the same house and DD needs to know that while he is not her biological father, he is still family and wants what's best for her too. We knew he'd be a trigger being there. Even the social worker said that she clued DD in yesterday that DH would be coming and she told her she better call me and tell me not to have him there or she will not paricipate.

He said his peace during the session. He is very old school with the belief that kids are to do what the parents say period. Over the 4 years we've been together I've tried to tell him that while traditional parenting techniques work for some kids, some will not work for DD. But he stands firm on this. Which is a challenge but we are working on it.

Anyway, he finally got a taste of what I have been saying and kind of validated ME today and now gets where I'm coming from. And that is, when he gets frusterated with me when he tells me we need to do X, Y, Z and I respond ok, but it's not going to work or nothing is going to come from it, he kind of gets it now after the meeting today. I told him that this is the outcome we would have. He was hopeful they'd commit her.

I said please understand when I get exhausted or get aggitated sometimes when you push for me to do things because I feel defeated because I've been down these roads more times than I can count and can pretty much forsee what's going to happen. Not that I won't continue to try, but to please just understand that while I never do, there will be times I'm gonna SAY I give up.


Anyway, he's called me four times already within the hour reeling over everything. I told him to try and clear his mind. That we are doing the best we can with what little resouces we have.

I really lucked out in the husband department. Not very long ago I wanted to set him free to protect him from all of this. And he told me no. That he waited for me too long (his first and only marriage after 40 years) to give up so easily. I even got so stressed out I found myself unintentionally sabotaging our relationship to push him to leave. But the reality is, I do need him. Even though I told him I’d probably have better luck doing this on my own until she was 18. If the roles were reversed, I honestly don’t think I’d be able to do it. I’m so thankful for him. Yet I still feel guilty for him having this life that he didn’t sign up for….when we married ex and I shared 50/50 custody and it was not nearly has horrible as this at our home.

He told me that he would have probably left a long time ago if it weren’t for how he and I share the same notion that once DD turns 18 and then refuses to follow the rules, she is out. I’ve always said that. But will I be able to? I think I will. But what if I can’t? That scares me. Am I delaying the inevitable? And I’m an over thinker in case you couldn’t tell. I’m my own worst enemy sometimes.

[co.jo]

I also remarried when my BPDd was 13. she is now 26. During that time she was horrible to my husband, including smashing his car, ruining an art piece he was about 300 hours into, and assaulting him. It was tough. He hung in there, and she lived with us from 16-19, and his been on her own since. But there are still times when he helps pick up the pieces. I am very lucky. He is not a great reader, and when she was young, the Explosive Child book came out , and was on tape, so he could listen instead of read. Then we were kind of on the same page. I don't know if there are cds available of any of the BPD books .

There have been times when my daughter might have wanted to move home, but with a little financial help we got her through the tough spots. My husband was ok with this, as the alternative, her moving back, was not an option.That is how we have managed things , and it felt ok.

I would say, stop worrying about the future, as things can change in a heartbeat. It's great he went with you today, and hopefully you can work on some new skills together. Before we were married, my husband and I went to a counselor, just to make sure we were on the right path. I remember the counselor telling my husband" you have to be willing to walk over hot coals for this woman, because step-parenting is difficult ( I think he may have said hell) ". We had 6 kids between us, and there have been many difficult times, in those early days we tried never to discipline each other's kids, which worked.But I would never say it was hell.

I have been following your journey, you have been through such a bad time, but it sounds like you have a bit of a team to support you and your daughter, which I hope is lifting a bit of the stress.

[Matt]

It's absolutely normal that you are both struggling with this.  It's because you both care, and you want things to be better, and you can't fix it right now.  Very frustrating!  And of course we guys think in terms of "fixing things" not "acceptance"... .

A few thoughts... .

While my son was in rehab, it was close to where we live, and they had a weekly "Family Group" meeting, about 3 hours in the evening, and I usually went.  I learned a lot, because it's way easier to see things in other families than in our own!

Most families have one "soft" parent, who wants to be nice to the addict, hoping she will respond in kind, and one "hard" parent, who wants to be firm and expect the addict to act right.  Neither approach works, til the addict gets the help she needs, and this conflict can break up a couple.  That's why I say, stay close to your husband, and make sure you're on the same sheet of music - talk things through and come to an agreement, and then abide by that agreement.  Nothing you do will work, short-term, but your marriage can survive (I hope!), if you put your relationship with your husband first, and don't sacrifice it to the futile hope that if you take the "soft" approach - without your husband's support - things will go better.

(By the way, it's not always the mom who is soft.  I was the soft one.)

I think it's great your husband went with you, and that he said his truth.  Your daughter needs to accept that he is a permanent part of your life, and you are committed to the marriage, and if she wants to live in your home she needs to accept his authority.

I know that some step-parents take a passive role in parenting, and that may work for them - let the bioparent be in charge of the kids.  But it clearly won't work in your situation.  Whether she realizes it or not, your daughter is lucky to have you both, and in time she may benefit a lot from a relationship with your husband - the structure he is advocating will be important to her recovery.  But right now she is opposing everything and everyone who could be helping her, and until that changes - til she says "I have a problem and I need help." - she will continue to struggle.

One last thought:  Forgive yourself.

Looking back, there are a bunch of things I wish I had done differently, or better, or sooner.  But at every point, I did what I thought was best, and my motives were always right, I just wasn't perfect, and I didn't know everything.  I've had to forgive myself a lot or I'd never be able to sleep.  You're the same - the same as me and every other parent who has ever loved a child but not been able to help her (yet).  Beating yourself up won't do anybody any good.  Keep doing what you think is best, and stay close to your husband - and forgive him too - you're both the best things in your daughter's life, and in time she may come to realize it.

My son is now super-appreciative of everything I've done, and super-forgiving of mistakes I made, and a very good person, and I'm very proud of him.  But it took many years to get to this point.  You need to take care of yourself so you can run this marathon!

[raytamtay3]

It's also self-serving, for someone who has done a lot of bad stuff, to consider it all in the past, so there are no consequences.  In treatment, her counselors will address this with her, and it will be hard - she'll be challenged to face up to what she has done, and make amends to those she has hurt, because if she doesn't, the guilt will make recovery harder.  But you don't need to take that on now - that's for the professionals to do when your daughter is ready for treatment.  You can just let the past go, as you are doing, and focus on here and now - that's hard enough.

They mentioned, and we've had it before, in fact very recently, family therapy. Now the therapist meets one on one with DD and of course it's going well.

DD said she doesn't want familt therapy because we always end up fighting and they try and tell me how to parent. It's because as you pointed out, it's current events that we need to work through and she doesn't want it coming to the surface in an effort to not take responsbility for her part in it. I said that it's a golden opportunity to work through our conflicts and reach a resolution. She'd rather sweep things under the rug and avoid it all together. But than says how I hold grudges when she moves past it quicker after session (I will admit after having her screaming at me telling me I'm the root of all the problems in her life, etc., it leaves me shaken and it's not that I'm mad, it's more so that I'm hurt and I hurt deeply) (I'm a cancer and very true to my sign). I said well that's where family therapy would serve us well. we need to get things out.

I just thought of something else discussed in todays' meeting. DD said how our life was great before DH came in to the picture. But than said how they had a great relationship until he started telling her what to do. He responded that he remained quiet until he saw her calling me a C*nt, and getting in my face and that's when he started speaking up. And that's when he was painted black.

[Matt]

Family therapy is probably a very good idea, with or without your daughter.

What I mean is, if she is not willing to participate, you and your husband could go anyway, and talk things through, and get ideas from the counselor.

Then when your daughter is ready to participate, great - she'll be welcome.  But there should be ground-rules set by the counselor - no interrupting, no name-calling, etc.  A good forum for discussing things openly, and also an opportunity for her to learn how to express herself in constructive ways.

I wonder if the place she was recently has anything like this?  A "Family Group" with other families, or family therapy just for you guys?

[Matt]

I just thought of something else discussed in todays' meeting. DD said how our life was great before DH came in to the picture. But than said how they had a great relationship until he started telling her what to do. He responded that he remained quiet until he saw her calling me a C*nt, and getting in my face and that's when he started speaking up. And that's when he was painted black.

Nothing your daughter says right now should be given much weight, because she is still using drugs.  Even if she is clean for a short time, as long as she doesn't take responsibility and talks trash, it's good to listen to her - to model for her appropriate ways to communicate - but I wouldn't let anything she says get to you - it's all self-serving garbage.

When she is committed to her recovery, and doing what's right, and getting good therapy, after a few months she will be able to have a rational conversation, and at that point you'll want to treat her more as an equal, and give good consideration to what she is saying.  At that point, she'll say things like, "I know you want what's best for me and I appreciate that, but when you do X I don't think that's right." - moderate, fair feedback to you, and expressions of her own feelings.  And then you can validate what she says - "I understand where you're coming from." etc. - and continue that dialogue, which will be helpful and can continue forever, with and without the counselor(s).

But for right now, you just kind of have to listen politely, and see if there is any value in what she's saying, but remember that it's mostly the drugs talking - even when she is clean at the moment - all she's really motivated by is the desire to self-medicate, and her thinking is very twisted.

[raytamtay3]

The center didn't mention anything about such a thing there. But our caseworker recommended DH and I attend marriage counseling.

And speaking of that... .ut-oh. I sense todays' events really had a negative affect on DH as I sent him a text thanking him for not giving up on us and that I'm still hopeful that some day all of this hard work will pay off or like we've said before, we can take comfort in knowing we've tried the best we could. His response kind of threw me for a loop. He said he can't see doing this for another 4 years. That it's either juvy, a detention center or RTC and he's hoping that at court it will push it through. I honestly don't see that happening. What I see happening is she gets a slap on the wrist because this is her first big offense and that she will ordered community service, fines and therapy.

Women's intution is almost always right... .see.

[raytamtay3]

Thing is, she wasn't using at the time she said that.

[Matt]

Thing is, she wasn't using at the time she said that.

You don't know that, and from what you've said, I think it's very unlikely she had been clean for very long.

"Using" can mean "high at that moment" or "using that day", but I would suggest you think of it as "Has she been clean and sober for a few months, and is she in a recovery program and doing what she needs to do, and taking responsibility for everything she has done?"  When the answer to that is more-or-less "Yes", you'll see a big change - everything won't be perfect, and she will probably relapse more than once - it often takes years.  But she will by then be able to have a meaningful, sensible conversation.  Right now - even if she hasn't used for a few days or a week - she's just an addiction disguised as a kid.

Plus... .your ability to know when she's using and isn't probably sucks.  Mine did.  I had to learn to quit believing anything - even now, after years, I have to remind myself that if my son relapses, I probably won't know it for quite a while.  I'm too invested in his sobriety to see it rationally.

[raytamtay3]

I promise that this is my last message for the night. But because I'm questioning my parenting approach now, I wanted to get some advice on this.

As outlined in the bondary I wrote up, DD's allowance will other form rather than cash. So she just asked me if she could have money for the movies tonight. I said no, but I can buy her a ticket. Than she said how she may be going soon before I get home, and if her friend paid for her, if I would reimburse the friend. I said as long as DD has the ticket stub with the name of the movie with today's date and the time, sure. Let's see what happens.

Do you think this was an ok thing to do?

[Matt]

I think drug abusers are very manipulative.

First, she just got home after causing a bunch of problems for you and your husband.  She should be focused on how she can make things better - homework (if she's still in school), helping around the house, or whatever.  Not going out with friends.

Second, I think it's pretty darn likely she's not going to the movies.

Third, she's finding a way to nibble away at your boundary already.  You told her you would take care of her financial needs without putting cash in her hands, so now she's finding a way to chip away at that boundary.  Her desire to see an earlier movie is more important than your boundary, or she would wait til the later show when you could buy the ticket.  Does that make any sense at all?  Did she even consider that maybe you might want to see the movie with her?

Finally, I think it's very likely that any "friend" she has, and has had while using, is probably a part of the problem.  She will want to be around people who validate her behavior and don't hold her accountable.  That's what a "friend" is to a user:  someone whose expectations are low.

Everybody around me could see my son's manipulations and half-truths for what they were, but I couldn't, because I didn't want to face the bigger picture:  he was on drugs and wasn't an honest person.

[raytamtay3]

GM. Thankfully DD ended up not going to the movies. I called her bluff and the outcome is exactly what I expected.

Something very suspect occurred last night however.  She called me to say that she thinks something is wrong with her. When I asked what, she said she thinks she is having anxiety attacks... .hmmmm... .she was recently arrested for possession of xanax of which she denies stealing from my mom, but for which I know she did. I'm wondering if she is trying to see if I will take her to the doctors to get put on them or something. It's just a little too coincidental that all of a sudden she feels she has anxiety - wouldn't you all agree? She said she felt it being around people she didn't know last night. It could be that she wants to be put on anxiety medication or that she is getting anxiety now after smoking weed.

When she came home last night she looked very upset and went straight to her room and never came back out. I asked her if everything was ok as she walked by and she just shook her head yes.  So something is up. My spidey senses are tingling.

[Matt]

Your spider-sense might be right in this case, or it might be wrong.  Next time you might think things are fine, and that's when she's up to no good.  Your spider-sense may not be any more accurate than mine - not very.

You're certainly right to be concerned, and right to not assume that everything she tells you will always be true.  But I would suggest not trying to figure out when she's telling the truth, when she's not telling the truth, and when she is kinda-halfway telling the truth.  You'll go nuts trying to figure it out.

She might be having anxiety because she's smoking weed.  Or because she's not smoking weed.

Xanax and other prescription drugs are the biggest drug problem we have right now - the biggest cause of ODs.  Doctors tend to over-prescribe, and many doctors don't know how to figure out who needs something and who doesn't.  Even the addict herself may genuinely feel that something is wrong and she needs medication - her addiction manipulating her and you and the doctor to get what it wants.

If you decide to take her to the doctor, make sure it's a doctor who understands addiction and who is 100% aware of all your daughter's issues.  Be very careful about allowing her to take anything which could be addictive, which includes most prescription pain medications and Xanax (but not some anti-depressants).

Does she exercise at all?  That's probably a better way for her to deal with depression, anxiety etc. than medication.

[raytamtay3]

Last night while gathering clothes to wash from DD's room, I found her journal laying out. She knows I've read it before when I had suspected something was up (that she was depressed and having suicidal ideation which facilitated the first stint at a BHC), and yet left it laying out. She also knows I go through her room now... .

So did she leave it out for me to read? The last entry was from November 25, which was the day she sent me the text about my making her want to kill herself every day and that she has cut because of me, and the day I called the police and that in addition to BHC, she got arrested for the assault on the police officer. I will admit at first I questioned if her text was really a threat that she was planning on harming herself. Questioning if I did the right thing. Well reading her journal last night definetly made me realize that I did! And she was screaming that night the cops came that she did not text that she was planning on killing herself as she lunged for me.

She wrote that her coping skill is to leave when things get bad and that I even take that away from her (it was the night before she left the house at 11:30 PM and took off with some guy in a truck and stayed out all night without my knowledge or consent), that I'm the one who has always made her want to kill herself. That she hadn't cut in over a year and that she did the other night because of me and now can't stop. How she loves her brother and doesn't want to leave him but that she is just so tired.

She wrote almost a year ago, when her dad gave me full custody the first time because he could not control her anymore, that she hated him and me and him moreso for giving up on her and not even trying to hide the fact he doesn't care about her, and me for acting like I care when I really don't. And that was around the time of the first stint as well because she had drawn numerous pictures of a various death scenes and talking about wanting to die. So I know that I really shouldn't take it to heart when she writes things like me being the reason why she feels the way she does. But man does it hurt. You would think I'm one of these controlling, mean mothers when I'm the polar opposite. I'm the softy. Yes I've trighten the reigns because of her actions for the past year, but I'm still caring, loving and fair. I don't cry about it anymore like I use to and guess I've developed some what of a tough skin. But it does still hurt my heart to think that in her mind, I'm this evil person. Thanks for letting me vent. It helps more than you know.

[Matt]

Ray,

I'm driving so I can't write much - I'll check in later - hang in there and get some support if you can - somebody you can talk with.  Your daughter needs 24/7 treatment.  It's not your fault - none of this is.

[Being Mindful]

Hi Ray,

I'm wondering if for a little bit you could reduce the urge to read her journal. There is so much speculation and wondering about the words and it does cause hurt to read what she has to say. Ask yourself, what do you gain by reading it. Is it more pain? Does it really tell you anything you don't already know or suspected? Does it cause more anxiety for you?

What you do know... .she is sick, very sick. She has a limited capacity in dealing with emotions and reality. Of course, she is going to blame others for her actions. In her journal or her words, she will speak her reality based on her illness. Until you are in a place to understand that and know how to cope with that, I would recommend avoiding it for now.

I found that once I stopped looking or sneaking around for information and just waiting for things to fall naturally where they should, I was a lot better off. It was after I learned many tools and skills, I could look more objectively at my daughter's hurtful words. Eventually, I could validate the emotions behind her words.

You have a long road ahead. How are you doing on self care?

Take care,

Being Mindful

[raytamtay3]

Advice needed yet again. We don’t allow DD to have Facebook in our home. She does have an account, and will access it from friend’s houses or the library on occasion. The reason we don’t allow it is because of DD’s past behavior on it. Wallpapering her page with pot leaves, fighting with girls on there, friending anyone, etc. We had told her prior to taking it away that in order for her to have it, we would want the password. She refused saying she needs her privacy. So we have stayed firm for over a year of not allowing her computer access. I even asked that the school put a block on the PC they supplied for DD’s homebound instruction. Which they did thankfully.

DD has badgered me about getting it and I kept saying no, so up until today, she’d ask every once in a while and when I told her no, she’d drop it. Well now she is asking again. Saying she wants it for x-mas. And I told her not yet. And now she keeps badgering again.

I just don’t trust her to be on it because she doesn’t use good judgment at all (obviously). She even recently told me she has been chatting with someone on there (from a friend’s PC obviously) whom she never met, but knows through a friend on there, and how they were going to meet up! I told her she doesn’t know this person. She doesn’t even know if this person is real! And you’re gonna meet up with him? I didn't yell or over react to her but inside I was screaming. I was very calm. Anyway, that’s just an example. But her father is friends with one of DD’s friend’s moms and the mom has access to her DD’s Facebook and can see my DD’s posts. And she is always calling the ex telling him what she writes which is almost always bad.

So how can I keep this going. Just keep saying no? And she always asks "but why"? And I say because I do not like Facebook. End of story. That’s all I got. . Any other suggestions on how to avert this in a validating way? It’s so hard when pretty much everyone has one now, and we are living in a social media world.

These are the times I feel too controlling. But I know in my gut I’m right about this one.

Oh and don't suggest me telling her to give my access again. Because she makes fake pages now too.

[raytamtay3]

Hi Ray,

I'm wondering if for a little bit you could reduce the urge to read her journal. There is so much speculation and wondering about the words and it does cause hurt to read what she has to say. Ask yourself, what do you gain by reading it. Is it more pain? Does it really tell you anything you don't already know or suspected? Does it cause more anxiety for you?

What you do know... .she is sick, very sick. She has a limited capacity in dealing with emotions and reality. Of course, she is going to blame others for her actions. In her journal or her words, she will speak her reality based on her illness. Until you are in a place to understand that and know how to cope with that, I would recommend avoiding it for now.

I found that once I stopped looking or sneaking around for information and just waiting for things to fall naturally where they should, I was a lot better off. It was after I learned many tools and skills, I could look more objectively at my daughter's hurtful words. Eventually, I could validate the emotions behind her words.

You have a long road ahead. How are you doing on self care?

Take care,

Being Mindful

I guess because I can express myself better, and get out my feelings better in writing, I feel that by reading what she writes, I can uncover the truth or gain some knoweldge  behind her actions. That it is a window to her soul. Plus I feel if she is leaving it out for me to see, she is crying for my help when she can't verbally ask for it. Like it's her voice of reason where she has none externally. Make sense?

My self care involves venting here really. I have a lot on my plate lately between my terminally ill mother moving in with us and my DD.

[hopeangel]

Ray!

Do you think you could tell dd she could use fb when she is less erratic with her behaviour and less likely to get into trouble?

I just had to let you know as well that your dd's journal sounds just like the things my dd used to say to me!  It was ALL my fault she wanted to die!  I too used to cry and feel so hurt because all I had done was care for her, just like you!

She hated me for everything and anything and made things up to hate me for too!

Im only saying to hope to make you feel better because she loves me now (mostly!) and none of the things she said made much sense to me at the time or in retrospect, its just part of the fear and pain of the condition, they project feelings onto you, they fear abandonment so much they hate you before you have chance to hate/abandon them first, it is so complex but it has NOTHING to do with the reality of what you do mean to her which is EVERYTHING!

The agony they cause us is their pain projected onto us but no matter how it hurts us it is still a fraction of the pain they carry.  Please don't forget this and NEVER absorb their words as they are not real!  :)o not let the character assassinations define your self-esteem, you know who you are, also don't let the same character assassinations define them either as they are not real, they are just their pain played out.

If we don't/cant stand firm and tolerate these intolerable attacks who else will but we must never absorb the actual words they say about us, try to see the helpless girl in mental pain behind the words just lashing out to bring herself relief, its just another form of self-harm really, driving loved ones away!

xx

[raytamtay3]

Ray!

Do you think you could tell dd she could use fb when she is less erratic with her behaviour and less likely to get into trouble?

I just had to let you know as well that your dd's journal sounds just like the things my dd used to say to me!  It was ALL my fault she wanted to die!  I too used to cry and feel so hurt because all I had done was care for her, just like you!

She hated me for everything and anything and made things up to hate me for too!

Im only saying to hope to make you feel better because she loves me now (mostly!) and none of the things she said made much sense to me at the time or in retrospect, its just part of the fear and pain of the condition, they project feelings onto you, they fear abandonment so much they hate you before you have chance to hate/abandon them first, it is so complex but it has NOTHING to do with the reality of what you do mean to her which is EVERYTHING!

The agony they cause us is their pain projected onto us but no matter how it hurts us it is still a fraction of the pain they carry.  Please don't forget this and NEVER absorb their words as they are not real!  :)o not let the character assassinations define your self-esteem, you know who you are, also don't let the same character assassinations define them either as they are not real, they are just their pain played out.

If we don't/cant stand firm and tolerate these intolerable attacks who else will but we must never absorb the actual words they say about us, try to see the helpless girl in mental pain behind the words just lashing out to bring herself relief, its just another form of self-harm really, driving loved ones away!

xx

Thank you so much for this.    Yeah, get to use the santa smiley.

PS: I need to print this out and hang it somewhere to keep referring to.

[raytamtay3]

DD keeps texting me saying she is bored and wants me to come home early.

This has got to be one of the most complex disorders on the planet (maybe not- but who knows - but it feels like it). Tells all therapists, caseworkers, etc., that she hates me. Stays out late so she doesn't have to see me. That I'm the cause of all her pain and the reason why she cuts and wants to die. And yet wants me around when she is bored... .  It's pretty scary really.  Being a women and all, no offense anyone, I know what it's like to have the roller coaster ride at certain times, but holy moly. I couldn't imagine having it like that each and every day for life.

[hopeangel]

Hey Im so happy to have helped you feel better, it makes me feel the hell ive been through was worth something!     

Yes there is actually no rollercoaster in the world like the BPD rollercoaster!

I like to call it character-building and I totally expect a free pass straight through the pearly gates after this lot! 

[raytamtay3]

Panicking here! My DD's friend got charged with possession of 4 grams of marijuana and had her court date today. She got one year probation and her mother a $1,000 fine. My DD charges are WAY worse. One being an indictable. I'm freaking out over the inevitable fines we are going to have to pay! We live paycheck to paycheck as it is.

:'(

And she has the nerve to say to me that she hopes she doesn't have court until after New Year's Eve so she "can be herself" until she has to be on probation.

DH seems to think that we have a better chance than her friend's mother because we have a file about an inch thick showing diagnoses, our attempts at treatment, etc. But I'm so scared that it is not going to matter.

[Being Mindful]

Ray!

Do you think you could tell dd she could use fb when she is less erratic with her behaviour and less likely to get into trouble?

I just had to let you know as well that your dd's journal sounds just like the things my dd used to say to me!  It was ALL my fault she wanted to die!  I too used to cry and feel so hurt because all I had done was care for her, just like you!

She hated me for everything and anything and made things up to hate me for too!

Im only saying to hope to make you feel better because she loves me now (mostly!) and none of the things she said made much sense to me at the time or in retrospect, its just part of the fear and pain of the condition, they project feelings onto you, they fear abandonment so much they hate you before you have chance to hate/abandon them first, it is so complex but it has NOTHING to do with the reality of what you do mean to her which is EVERYTHING!

The agony they cause us is their pain projected onto us but no matter how it hurts us it is still a fraction of the pain they carry.  Please don't forget this and NEVER absorb their words as they are not real!  :)o not let the character assassinations define your self-esteem, you know who you are, also don't let the same character assassinations define them either as they are not real, they are just their pain played out.

If we don't/cant stand firm and tolerate these intolerable attacks who else will but we must never absorb the actual words they say about us, try to see the helpless girl in mental pain behind the words just lashing out to bring herself relief, its just another form of self-harm really, driving loved ones away!

xx

Thank you so much for this.    Yeah, get to use the santa smiley.

PS: I need to print this out and hang it somewhere to keep referring to.

Keep in mind too that she trusts you and feels safe enough to direct all her pain to you. When I received this same treatment from my BPD.d, I reframed it for me that she was still connected to me and trusted me enough to hold her pain for her. However, there is still a point where verbal abuse was not tolerated and I had to have strong boundaries to protect myself from her. Each and every time she verbally abused me my response was the same of exiting the conversation. Eventually she learned that she could not abuse me. Validation of her feelings as horrible as they seemed to me were also acknowledged... ."it must be so difficult to feel that you can't trust me", "You must be very sad to feel that I don't love you".

Regarding Facebook... .computer privileges were for when our d. was attending school, getting decent grades, showing responsible behaviors, being healthy within the family etc.

[Matt]

Wow - lots of good thoughts from everybody.  I won't repeat stuff but it's all really good ideas I think.

I'll talk about a different subject... .

I think the way this is going to get better is when you can get your daughter into residential treatment.  That won't work til she is ready, and from what you have said, I don't think she's ready.  But she's very young, and things can change very fast, especially when she goes to court, which it sounds like might be soon.

Here's how it worked for me:

My son had been to jail a number of times - 3 DUIs and 3 times for violating probation by drinking.  He was in jail and looking at a couple years in state prison.  I talked with his probation officer who recommended a residential treatment center, and said if my son and I both committed to that for 6 months the PO would propose that to the judge instead of jail.  I had to come up with the money - a lot - and my son had to sign a letter committing to complete the program or go to prison.

Also... .I had to take him from jail direct to rehab - no stops - not at home, or even for lunch - straight to rehab or the deal would be off.  The reason is, rehab works better when the person goes direct from jail - I learned that later from the rehab staff.

It worked.  He was committed and did well.  He relapsed a number of times, and came back to rehab for another six months - it wasn't easy - two steps forward and one step back - harder because he had been using for more than twelve years.

I think you should research residential treatment centers - talk to your daughters PO - talk to anybody else who has experience with treatment - find where she could go, and for how long, and if funding might be available somehow.  There may be funding available from the youth probation department, for example, or from some other government or private agency.

Figure out an option you think is best, and talk with her PO, and see if the PO might agree to that rather than jail.  Give your daughter only two options - a good one (rehab) or a really bad one (jail).  Don't focus on making the bad option better - a shorter sentence - that's not what you want.  Focus on making sure she has no other options - no friends she can stay with - no option to come home after court - no other options whatsoever, other than rehab or jail.

She'll choose rehab.  She might not be 100% committed - maybe not very committed at all - so it may not be effective.  But the rehab staff will probably be good at getting through to her, and just being in that environment 24/7 may help.

Or if not, at least you'll know you did your best.

[raytamtay3]

I already screwed up and didn’t stick to a couple of boundaries. I guess I do have to face the fact that while I may not be the cause of the problem, I’m not helping….

I truly believe at this point that my DD is beyond a manipulator.  That she knows exactly how to play me. And as my DH told me, run circles around me.  And he is right.

For instance, last night, the boundary is her phone gets turned off if her chores are not done. I get home and none of her chores are done. She asks for a ride to her friends and I say not until you do your chores. Chores consist of cleaning up after herself, straightening her room and running the vacuum twice a week.  I let her get away with only washing her dishes after you said she’d finish when she got home... .mistake #1

Another boundary is to be home by township curfew (10:00 during the week and 11 one weekends which is too generous to begin with because she is only 14) or the police will be called. That if she wants a ride home, she needs to call me by 10:00 or I will not be coming to get her.  I text her at 9:00 saying that if she wanted a ride, it would have to be then because I was going to have some wine and she knows I don’t drink and drive even if I only have a glass. No response. 10:30 rolls around and I text again reinstating the boundary and that now I would have to call the police. She responded to go ahead because she is getting a ride home anyway and the movie she was watching was almost over. I didn’t call them... .Mistake #2

And there is really no excuse, but last night I had a panick attack. Before all this, and what prompted me to have wine, was that everything hit me at once and like a ton of bricks. I literally thought I was having a nervous breakdown. Externally it wasn’t evident but inside I was a wreck! Again, no excuse though.  I went to bed around 12 with DD still not being home and shut off my cell phone like I always do…

Woke up this morning to two texts, one at 12:04 asking if I was still up (she knows I usually go to bed between 10 – 11 on a work night).  Then another at 12:45 saying that her friend’s mother fell asleep, that she didn’t have a ride home and so was sleeping over night (which has occurred before and she is running out of material). Another boundary I had was that if she stayed out all night without my knowledge or consent, the police would be called and she would be reported as a runaway. Mistake #3

I also woke up to three long text messages from my DH reaming me out DD still running circles around me. That this is exactly what her therapist was saying to me the other day. That in reviewing the tapes (we have cameras set up at home) that DD didn’t do any of her chores and that the phone should have been shut off right than and there when I got home. Saying how with her I cannot give in at all. That I should have never given her a ride to her friend’s house. That I need to treat DD as I would a co-worker  and would I allow a co-worker to treat me like that, etc.

I called DD at 6:30 am this morning when I got up. She answered. I told her that I would be over in a ½ hour to pick her up. She said no, she was sleeping. I told her how she broke the boundary of being out not only past curfew, but all night without my consent. She said but I knew where she was. I said it didn’t matter. I stopped playing ring around the rosey with her after about 3 more texts. She said in her last one how I can come there and she will come out to say hi, but that she’s going back in. I told her she will either be coming home with me or the police.  So I get to the house and beep the horn and she comes out in bare feet. I said get your stuff. She said why? I’m just coming right back here anyway, so I’m gonna stay. I said she had exactly 2 minutes to get her stuff. It got a bit heated.

She did end up going in to get her stuff and got in my car. The 3 minute drive home, yes  3 minute, I reinforced the boundaries and how she crossed them. She said as soon as she got home, she was grabbing some stuff and going right back out. I said well than your phone will be turned off because you are to do your chores before you leave the house. She said she didn’t care. Well I dropped her off and it started pouring. As of right now she is still home.

I called DD this morning on the way to work, as I do to wake him up and told him he was right. And he is. I suck as a parent. Everyone who has eluded to the fact is right.

I'm the one who needs to go away somplace.

[raytamtay3]

I am scared as hell I'm going to one day come home and she is dead.

[Rapt Reader]

raytamtay3 

I'm so sorry for all the turmoil you are going through... .It sounds like maybe things are getting ready for a shift in circumstances? It also sounds like there are some growing pains going on, with you and your daughter. You feel like you've made some terrible decisions--but realizations can also free us to make the changes we need to once we deal with the grief of them. You can now use your insights to do what you need to in order to make things better.

I know you've gotten some great advice and direction on this thread, and also on the one you've got going on the Legal Board. Maybe take a deep breath, have something soothing to sip, and reread both threads with new eyes, and an open mind. You can do this. You love your daughter, want to do what is best for her and your family, your heart is in the right place. You are the mother; you can help steady this rocking ship... .I have to leave right now, but will check in later. This whole site is here for you, raytamtay3, and we all want to help 

[Matt]

I am scared as hell I'm going to one day come home and she is dead.

Our fears keep us stuck in our old behaviors - enabling, co-dependent, dysfunctional.

"But if I do X, or don't do Y, she'll use drugs or hurt herself some other way, and I'll feel responsible.  And I'll have to live with that forever."

Your fears aren't crazy.  It happens.  No matter what you do, your worst fears could come true.  My son tried to kill himself - planned it and did it, and it almost worked.  Now he's in prison, and in some ways, that seemed even worse than if he had died.

Your fears aren't crazy.  It could happen.  You have to live with that knowledge, but not let it drive you to make mistakes - enabling - that will make things worse.

Al-Anon my friend!

[raytamtay3]

I am scared as hell I'm going to one day come home and she is dead.

Our fears keep us stuck in our old behaviors - enabling, co-dependent, dysfunctional.

"But if I do X, or don't do Y, she'll use drugs or hurt herself some other way, and I'll feel responsible.  And I'll have to live with that forever."

Your fears aren't crazy.  It happens.  No matter what you do, your worst fears could come true.  My son tried to kill himself - planned it and did it, and it almost worked.  Now he's in prison, and in some ways, that seemed even worse than if he had died.

Your fears aren't crazy.  It could happen.  You have to live with that knowledge, but not let it drive you to make mistakes - enabling - that will make things worse.

Al-Anon my friend!

I know. And that's the same crap that kept me in a controlling marriage for over 20 years too. I hate being me.

[Matt]

Can you get to an Al-Anon meeting today?

[raytamtay3]

On a lighter note. My mom has a chaplain that comes in as part of her hospice benefit and she asked that he come today to talk to DD.

Every time my DD comes out of a BHC, she talks about religion and in fact, showed me a ring she liked that she saw in a magazine at the place that had a cross on it with a little diamond and the words "You'll never walk alone" inscribed. I ordered it for her for Xmas.

I always say how we can start going to church, but she never wants to.

Both my sister and my brother turned to God when they hit their rock bottom in life. I'm hoping DD will too. I'm up for anything that would help.

[raytamtay3]

Can you get to an Al-Anon meeting today?

LOL. I don't know where to even begin.

[maxen]

after a long, wearying day yesterday i went to an AlAnon meeting. after the hour I was glad i did. it wasn't even the best meeting i'd attended and it was worth it. (i currently have mother issues as well as divorce-from-a-BPD issue.)

raytamtay if you really don't know where to begin, just go online to their site, where there is a list of meetings. of course i don't know if there's one in your area, but maybe there is! if it's your first, just sit and listen. they'll make you welcome.

[Matt]

Can you get to an Al-Anon meeting today?

LOL. I don't know where to even begin.

I'm serious.  Google "al-anon Memphis" or wherever you live. You'll find a list of meetings - where and when - and you just go.  Try a few different ones and see which one you like.  Go to a meeting a day if you can, for a while.  Get the materials they have - no cost I think - and work the steps.

It works.  And I guarantee you will meet people you'll be very glad you know.

We'll wait here while you do the googling and let us know what you find... .

[raytamtay3]

Can you get to an Al-Anon meeting today?

LOL. I don't know where to even begin.

I'm serious.  Google "al-anon Memphis" or wherever you live. You'll find a list of meetings - where and when - and you just go.  Try a few different ones and see which one you like.  Go to a meeting a day if you can, for a while.  Get the materials they have - no cost I think - and work the steps.

It works.  And I guarantee you will meet people you'll be very glad you know.

We'll wait here while you do the googling and let us know what you find... .

No, I know you are serious. It just made me chuckle how you asked if I could get one today for some reason.

I did look it up. There is one on Wednedays at 7:30. But it talks a lot about drinking. Will it really benefit me? I'm just asking. I'm seriously going to go. I promise. Even just told DH who wants to go too and said he'll even leave work early. It may help him too. He drinks often.

Crap. That's the night of my Company's holiday party!

[crazedncrazymom]

Hi Raytamtay,

I just reread this thread and I think the thing that strikes me most is that you may need to reevaluate your boundaries and rules.  How important are they and how far are you willing to go to protect the boundaries and enforce rules. 

It doesn't sound like you are willing to call the police when your dd does xyz.  That's ok. TBH, I tried that and it didn't do much good.  What are you willing to do?  I'd like to point out that everything your daughter has (phone, stereo, tv in room ... .just making stuff up, I only know about the phone) is a privilege.  These aren't things that she deserves just by being your dd.  It's hard to think that way.  I know, because that's the way I thought.  She deserves these things because she's here and she's my daughter, but really that's not true.  She deserves food.  Not even her favorite food, but food that fulfills her nourishment requirements.  She deserves a place to sleep, whether that's on a mattress or not is up to you.  She deserves clothes to wear.  I was advised to take everything but 5 sets of clothes.

I would suggest that you think about other ways to reach her and get her to care about acting in the family's best interests.

-crazed 

[raytamtay3]

Hi Raytamtay,

I just reread this thread and I think the thing that strikes me most is that you may need to reevaluate your boundaries and rules.  How important are they and how far are you willing to go to protect the boundaries and enforce rules. 

It doesn't sound like you are willing to call the police when your dd does xyz.  That's ok. TBH, I tried that and it didn't do much good.  What are you willing to do?  I'd like to point out that everything your daughter has (phone, stereo, tv in room ... .just making stuff up, I only know about the phone) is a privilege.  These aren't things that she deserves just by being your dd.  It's hard to think that way.  I know, because that's the way I thought.  She deserves these things because she's here and she's my daughter, but really that's not true.  She deserves food.  Not even her favorite food, but food that fulfills her nourishment requirements.  She deserves a place to sleep, whether that's on a mattress or not is up to you.  She deserves clothes to wear.  I was advised to take everything but 5 sets of clothes.

I would suggest that you think about other ways to reach her and get her to care about acting in the family's best interests.

-crazed 

She "works" for her phone in that if she does her chores, she keeps it turned on.

We've gotten into something we call "detention" mode where we took away cable tv, junk food, put up cameras, put deadbolts on door in hopes it would phase DD. Nope. It took months for her to start even trying to earn things back. And up until that point, made things worse i.e., she'd purposely leave the lights on, leave front door wide open, throw laundry around, leave cabinents open, dishes everywhere, etc.

[raytamtay3]

I really appreciate all of you and your advice and suggestions. I need to be told like it is on occassion to make me realize that I might be handling something wrong, etc. When you're in it, it's sometimes hard to see what's really going on. And I guess I'm a creature of habit from being with my exh from the time I was 15 until I was 38, who has similiar "traits" as DD.

My ex should have been a lawyer and my DD should be one too. They have this way of convincing you you are wrong. Will debate you until they win and you give up from pure exhaustion. Will make you question yourself non-stop.  I know it's wrong to compare. But I feel like I finally got myself out of an emotionally and verbally abusive controlling marriage, to only have to still deal with it with DD. I have gotten to the point these past few months where I walk away and go to my room where she can't follow me like my ex use to do too, but it's still hard. She stopped banging on the door and stopped walking out the back door on to our deck which connects to my bedroom to knock on that while whistling.

Just venting.

[raytamtay3]

Last post. I have something funny to share... .About four months ago I sent a letter to Dr. Phil explaining our struggles and asking for him to give us help with our daughter in hopes we'd be able to have her sent to one of those ranches they advocate. Of course I never received a response. But that's how desperate I am.

[Being Mindful]

Ray, My experience was that change had to begin with me. Not my ill daughter. How about looking up your local NAMI Office? They have some great supports and classes. Some posters have encouraged you to go back and re-read this thread. I encourage you to do that and keep an open mind to the suggestions given and ask yourself... .

1. Have I done any of these?

2. If not, when can I start? What is my plan?

3. Have I accessed the numerous resources and links here to begin learning how I can change and what impact I have in my relationship with my D.?

It is hard to do this. I know. Took me a long time to slow my rollercoaster and realize this. I was so caught up in the chaos and venting that it prevented me from the real work that had to be done. Know that we are with you on this road. Some are just starting their journey, some are part way through, some have crossed over into a place of acceptance and real change. We are pulling for you.

Being Mindful

P.S. Many of us also had the help of a therapist to help see us through. That might help too.

[Matt]

One thought... .what is a normal and healthy schedule for a 14-year-old?  And does it include being away from home on a school night?

My kids are S15, D17, SD25 and SS35.  My kids come home after school, or if they have after-school activities like sports, right after that.  Priority is homework.  Then help with dinner, set the table, take out the trash.  After dinner help with dishes, finish homework, and if there's time, TV in the living room, or computer time.  It is very rare that they even ask to go out on a weeknight, and even more rare that I say yes.  Why does a high-school student need to go out on a school night?

They're both very good students and very good kids.  No problem with alcohol or drugs (so far) - in sharp contrast with my older son - different story... .

So... .if you are routinely letting your 14-year-old daughter go out on school nights - not as a special treat because she has been doing super-well in school and with her behavior, but just as a normal thing - I wonder if there is a way to re-set that pattern - not to punish her but because it's not normal or healthy.

That won't fix all your problems, but at least the business about calling you at 10:00 or 11:00 to get a ride, or staying out all night, that goes away.  Her bedtime should be maybe 9:00 or so on a school night - in her room, in bed, lights out.

[Surnia]

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