DD14 and RTC - The Saga Continues

[jellibeans]

Ray

you list a lot of thing you would like to see happen but your H needs to be the one to decide that for himeself... . you can't do that for him.

What does the center think?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[raytamtay3]

you list a lot of thing you would like to see happen but your H needs to be the one to decide that for himeself... . you can't do that for him.

How do you mean? What did I list I wanted to see happen?

[jellibeans]

I feel like she and him need to start working on their realtionship

Your note seemed to talk a lot about how your H and dd relationship needed help and how the things your H has done in the past impacted your lives. I focus less on your H and more on what YOU can do to help improve your relationship with your dd. If the RTC wants just the two of you then I would start there.

[Being Mindful]

Thanks. Turns out DD was misinformed (?).  CM said visits are suspended until further notice.

Hm... . I am only speculating here, I am thinking that she was aware, and was yanking your chain... .

What if the phone call went like this:

DD: "Are you coming this Saturday for visit and family session?"

You: "I would love to, honey. And I will as soon as the restriction is lifted. As far as I know, it's still in place."

DD: "What? They didn't tell you? See? They don't even care, this isn't the right place for me! You need to take me out of here!"

You: "Hm, sweetie I'm sorry it's so upsetting right now... . we'll find out what happened. It looks like I won't be seeing you this weekend. How about I work on my end to find out what happened and you work on your end to earn your privileges back?

It sounds wonderful but I'm not quick on my feet like that unfortunetly.

Hi Ray, You sound just like I did before I learned skills and began to use them.    I'm going to encourage you to do it anyway, practice it and then it becomes your new normal.

[Being Mindful]

I agree with jellibeans to do what the center is recommending. Also, most likely your D. will only be able to hold focus onto one relationship at a time. Perhaps, she would feel ganged up on with both of you there, or being overwhelmed with the enormity of the work to be done. What is important is that it is clear you are her safe person. That should be where to start.

[Verbena]

Someone on here mentioned recently being "held hostage" by our children with BPD.  I've been there and think you are too with your DD.  Her stories very rarely match what the RTC itself is telling you.  Yet every time she tells her version of events, it upsets you and makes you question yourself or the RTC.  That is exactly what your DD wants you to do.  

Given her history of lying to you, maybe you could verify everything she tells you through e-mail with the center.  You can still validate her feelings as she tells you her version of events, but don't assume any of it is true.  Then when you find out her story doesn't match theirs, let her know that the very next time you speak.  Let her know you communicated with the center and they have a different story.  If you do that enough, she might just stop lying to you.  

I would want the RTC to know that your DD claims someone there laughed about a suicide attempt and egged her on to use terrible language to you.  She has to be held accountable for the things she says.  

[pessim-optimist]

Thanks. Turns out DD was misinformed (?).  CM said visits are suspended until further notice.

Hm... . I am only speculating here, I am thinking that she was aware, and was yanking your chain... .

What if the phone call went like this:

DD: "Are you coming this Saturday for visit and family session?"

You: "I would love to, honey. And I will as soon as the restriction is lifted. As far as I know, it's still in place."

DD: "What? They didn't tell you? See? They don't even care, this isn't the right place for me! You need to take me out of here!"

You: "Hm, sweetie I'm sorry it's so upsetting right now... . we'll find out what happened. It looks like I won't be seeing you this weekend. How about I work on my end to find out what happened and you work on your end to earn your privileges back?

It sounds wonderful but I'm not quick on my feet like that unfortunetly.

Hi Ray, You sound just like I did before I learned skills and began to use them.    I'm going to encourage you to do it anyway, practice it and then it becomes your new normal.

Hi Ray, that's ok, practice, practice, practice. I have to admit that I am much better in writing than in person, so I have lots to practice too. But the more I do it, the easier it gets and I get faster and more natural at it.

That gives me an idea: if there are things you feel that are important for you to communicate with her, can you write her letters to the RTC?

I also agree with the advice from Being Mindful and jellibeans that having just you and dd on Saturday is better. First things first, and she hasn't even started to comply with the RTC program... .

[raytamtay3]

I've tried some of the skills offered on this forum and DD saw right through it. She's too fricken' perceptive. When I got to the facility for the meeting DD was already in the Admin. building waiting for me. She kept asking various staff members if they were mad at her. They would say no, but even I could see it written all over their faces how disgusted they were with her and she having BPD, she can read faces.

I did get the RTC's side of the story and of course DD embelished her side. The thing is I want her to feel like I am still on her side. She needs to know that someone is even if I actually do take what she says with a grain of salt. Now don't get me wrong. I don't give her the impression that it's us against them but rather tell her I get it. That I understand her frusterations and that even if I don't outwardly react to what she is telling me, things don't go unnoticed and will be addressed. She takes comfort in that. It's very visible. I make sure she knows she is heard.

Oh and btw, I think she's cutting. She's been wearing sweatshirts the last two times I've seen her and it's been hot. I asked her why she was wearing one Saturday at 88 degrees and she said because the shirt underneath was ugly. I whispered to her if she's cutting. She smiled and started talking to someone else about something else. So I'm like 99.9 % sure she is. Should I mention this possibility to the RTC?

[Rapt Reader]

Should I mention this possibility to the RTC?

That sounds wise to me... .

[Being Mindful]

I've tried some of the skills offered on this forum and DD saw right through it. She's too fricken' perceptive. When I got to the facility for the meeting DD was already in the Admin. building waiting for me. She kept asking various staff members if they were mad at her. They would say no, but even I could see it written all over their faces how disgusted they were with her and she having BPD, she can read faces.

I did get the RTC's side of the story and of course DD embelished her side. The thing is I want her to feel like I am still on her side. She needs to know that someone is even if I actually do take what she says with a grain of salt. Now don't get me wrong. I don't give her the impression that it's us against them but rather tell her I get it. That I understand her frusterations and that even if I don't outwardly react to what she is telling me, things don't go unnoticed and will be addressed. She takes comfort in that. It's very visible. I make sure she knows she is heard.

Oh and btw, I think she's cutting. She's been wearing sweatshirts the last two times I've seen her and it's been hot. I asked her why she was wearing one Saturday at 88 degrees and she said because the shirt underneath was ugly. I whispered to her if she's cutting. She smiled and started talking to someone else about something else. So I'm like 99.9 % sure she is. Should I mention this possibility to the RTC?

Yes, my daughter saw right through it too when I started using the skills. I'm sure others have experienced the same thing as our kids with BPD can read us like no one else can. If she is reading through it, then can we help you to practice the skills, because when done correctly, they do work. Can we help you? I promise you they do work. And, I promise you that when used correctly, our kids improve.

You also mentioned that you want her to feel that you are on her side. Good intention, but she doesn't need someone on her side. Alliances with a person w/BPD, especially while in treatment can hold her back. You want her to know that she is loved, in fact so much so that you will do anything to get her the help she needs, even when it is painful. An alliance can mean to her that you support her lies and actions. So, I want to caution you on that.

You said:  "That I understand her frusterations and that even if I don't outwardly react to what she is telling me, things don't go unnoticed and will be addressed. She takes comfort in that. It's very visible. I make sure she knows she is heard."

How about this instead... . validate that you heard her, not that you understand her frustration. Then, ask a question of her to give it back to her so that she can problem solve for herself. For example: You sound very xxx, that must feel xxx. What can you do to xxx?

Yes, tell the RTC that you suspect she is cutting. You cannot be a secret keeper. They can't treat what they don't know.

Hope that is helpful.

Thoughts?

[raytamtay3]

Just received a call from a state trooper advising that a staff member at the RTC is filing a complaint against DD for her pushing her a couple of weeks ago. This is really getting ridiculous!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Being Mindful]

Just received a call from a state trooper advising that a staff member at the RTC is filing a complaint against DD for her pushing her a couple of weeks ago. This is really getting ridiculous!

Which part do you find ridiculous?

[raytamtay3]

Just received a call from a state trooper advising that a staff member at the RTC is filing a complaint against DD for her pushing her a couple of weeks ago. This is really getting ridiculous!

Which part do you find ridiculous?

All of it! I'm just so tired.

[jellibeans]

Your dd is having a hard time functioning at RTC... . I can't imagine how difficult she must have been for you at home. Does she have conduct disorder? My dd has the Oppositional Defiant disorder and that is a real challenge too.

[raytamtay3]

Your dd is having a hard time functioning at RTC... . I can't imagine how difficult she must have been for you at home. Does she have conduct disorder? My dd has the Oppositional Defiant disorder and that is a real challenge too.

Good morning.  Yeah, she has been diagnosed ODD but since then I do believe it's progressed to Conduct Disorder. Oh at home was pure hell. Constant badgering, yelling, cursing and basically doing whatever she wanted even when told no. And no being the huge trigger for her.

Had our family session Saturday; she, the therapist and me. I really love the new therapist. And despite her not telling DD what she wanted to hear, DD seems to have respect for her. It basically went as it has during visits and apparently her one on one therapy sessions. She relentlessy says how RTC's aren't for her, how she knowwhat will and won't work for her and that she can guarantee that she will be worse when she comes out because she's getting worse already being there. Constantly trying to convince me to let her come home home now, do extensive out patient where she goes for the entire day and then comes home at night, etc. I told her that when I start seeing her make progress at the RTC, then we'll talk. She told me she can't. So I said well than I guess you can't come home. I said actions speak louder than words. That what's she's telling me she'd do when she comes home I cannot believe because she has yet to demonstrate that she can behave herself. But there was no yelling on her part which huge progress in and of itself.  The therapist even told her that if she really started putting effort in, she would advocate for her to get passes home even if she has not made status. DD said no matter how hard she tries, she can't. Therapist told her that's her choice. Then DD was talking about how she is inpulsive (something she denied forever) and the therapist told her she clearly was thinking before she ran because she explained how she came to do so. BUT I used that to my advantage. I told DD how can I believe that she can do what she's saying she could do if I allowed her to do put patient when she just said how she is inpulsive and can't help but do bad things. DD was left speechless and the therapist said good one mom! .  Anyway I was a bit proud of myself in that whenever DD brought up about coming home I countered with show me you can come home.

PS: Durinmg a moment alone with the therapist she said how she has worked with people with BPD and does not believe DD to have it.   Said however she definetly has ODD.

[raytamtay3]

ExH has been after me for the past week to contact the RTC and tell them they need to lift the visitation restriction, that it isn't fair to the parents, yadda yadda.  I told him no, that I agree with it. That they really have no other leverage and that if DD wants to see us she has the ability by not running and doing what she's suppose to do. I said she needs consequences for her actions. So, he went ahead and sent a message to the CM over there asking when the restrictions would be lifted and the following is her response:

"Restrictions have not been lifted at this time. There was a family session on Saturday and Saturday evening, she ran with the same youth she has been running with. It continued through Tuesday. She was also suspended from school on yesterday for running up and downs the hall. She and a few others had to be confined to one room. Last night she tried to go out of the window but she could not get the window open. Then she tried to push pass staff with no success. I was here last night to witness this incident. I will speak with Mr Wilson and get back to you by tomorrow. Mr. Wilson has left for the day. Sorry that I do not have a better update for you".

Unreal. We had another great session and spelled out what was expected of her and she promised to try and do better. And what's she do? Runs THAT NIGHT!

[jellibeans]

Ray

This happened to me too. I visted my dd16 at RTC and we had a great visit. Brought her favorite lunch and her sister did her hair. We talked and things were great. 3 hours later she ran away. It was heartbreaking to me and we spend the night worrying about her. The conduct disorder is going to be tough. Hang in there.

[raytamtay3]

It's so incredibly frusterating! Her therapist told her last Saturday that even if she does minor things, i.e., cursing, that could prevent her from making "status", she would still advocate for her to have home passes as long as she didn't run off. DD said she would try. THAT NIGHT SHE RAN! What the heck! She was also told by the therapist that if she started following procedure there, that she would also advocate for her to get out of the program earlier as did her district CM and as did I! And she was also told a few weeks ago at the monthly meeting that if she continued to not complete the program successfully, they will request she go back in front of the judge to be told just that which could result in her going to jail. Yet she chooses to do what she wants. What a fool. Well I'm done. Let the cards fall where they may. I tried.

[raytamtay3]

I just received my update email from the RTC CM just now who pretty much reiterated what she did the ex. But she also added how DD is on the verge of being kicked out of school and how the CM was trying to hold off contacting DD's probation officer to let her know she isn't following procedure hoping DD would make efforts but that based on her behaviours, she chooses not to. She also added how it's really ashame that DD chooses to do all these things when she parents who actually care... .

That's what I was hoping would wake her up as well. Most of the youth at the facility come from poverty stricken homes and abuse. I thought she'd realize just how good she had it and would therefore want to make changes. Nope.

And like I told DH, I guarantee DD will say that she warned me she would get worse here and that it's all my fault. But you know what, I also know this time it will not affect me.

[raytamtay3]

And as expected, I received the following email from ex:

"This place was not the place for her I've been saying this since day one. and I don't understand why she cant be transferred to a different facility. I know they said to be transferred it would have to go in front of the judge and if it went in front of the judge he would put her in juvy because of breaking probation at the facility.

this kid is being totally mistreated its not even funny. shes being treated like a criminal for absolutely stupid ___ing things like hangings with boys.

not for robbery, or theft or attempt to kill somebody, but for breaking curfews and cursing and running to the boys. sounds like a typical teenager. and she's treated like a criminal".

So my response was if he felt that it was typical teenage stuff, he can take her back and he can deal with it. Funny... . I haven't heard a peep. 

[MammaMia]

Ray

I have to agree with the others that your DD is manipulating you and the staff of the RTC.  She obviously, wants things done her way and is being difficult to try to get thrown out.  

If your dd's current situation is causing you such anxiety, you need to step back and let the RTC do its job. You cannot micromanage what is going on there and remain healthy.  I would ask to be contacted only in case of an emergency or if a serious issue arises and stop the day-to-day reports. This serves no purpose. Is your dd aware you are being informed? This may contribute to her defiance.

See what the new therapist has to offer.  I am sorry your previous advocate has left.  She may have had personal reasons, so do not assume her leaving has anything to do with your dd or yourself.

You cannot help your dd if you do not take care of yourself.  Please get your anxiety under control.  It will help you both to deal with things better.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[raytamtay3]

I received a certified letter from CPS (child protective services) investigating allegations of abuse against my DD at the RTC... . I'm guessing this is from a alledged incident that occurred back in April (the first month DD began there).  Now the only thing I know that happend in April was the incident whereby another youth threw something at my DDand tried to get in to her house to get at DD. But would such an investigation occur if it was something resulting from another youth? I tried calling the man who signed off on the letter, but had to leave a voice mail and have yet to hear back from him.  What's your take on this?

[raytamtay3]

Update: I finally got ahold of CPS. They told me there is an investigation into the RTC and that my DD's name was brought up. Of course they cannot say who filed the report. The allegation is physical abuse. Now as mentioned, they have a physical restrain system only to be used if a youth is a danger to themselves or to others. DD had to be restrained a few times and DD told me a couple times were for no good reason. He asked if DD ever said anything about it. I said I know there was an incident with another youth and I cannot remember if DD told me she needed to be restrained that time. And I said I have to take what DD says with a grain of salt... . He asked why's that? I said because she wants out of there. But of course I'm thinking God forbid something shady is going on there. What kind of mother would that make me? Yes I realize that it's a consequence to DD's repeated lies and because I know she's trying to get kicked out of there. But still... .

He asked if I had any concerns. I told him that my concern is how the youth are able to take off into the woods so often. He was surprised to hear this was happening. So I feel good that at least I have eyes and ears out there too.

I don't blame anyone from trying to keep me focused on not falling for DD's manipulation, but from the beginning I had bad feelings. But I felt it was me just not having control... . :'(

[MammaMia]

If the RTC has anything to hide, an investigation should prove it, and open the door to change.

[pessim-optimist]

I am so sorry ray, worrying about your child's safety is the worst... .

Of course it could all be an investigation into a legitimate issue and of course there is a possibility that there are real problems.

At the same time, this sequence of events would leave me wondering, if the ex might be behind things:

June 6:

And as expected, I received the following email from ex:

"This place was not the place for her I've been saying this since day one. and I don't understand why she cant be transferred to a different facility.

... .

this kid is being totally mistreated its not even funny. shes being treated like a criminal for absolutely stupid ___ing things like hangings with boys.

June 9:

Update: I finally got a hold of CPS. They told me there is an investigation into the RTC and that my DD's name was brought up. Of course they cannot say who filed the report. The allegation is physical abuse.

[raytamtay3]

I am so sorry ray, worrying about your child's safety is the worst... .

Of course it could all be an investigation into a legitimate issue and of course there is a possibility that there are real problems.

At the same time, this sequence of events would leave me wondering, if the ex might be behind things:

June 6:

And as expected, I received the following email from ex:

"This place was not the place for her I've been saying this since day one. and I don't understand why she cant be transferred to a different facility.

... .

this kid is being totally mistreated its not even funny. shes being treated like a criminal for absolutely stupid ___ing things like hangings with boys.

June 9:

Update: I finally got a hold of CPS. They told me there is an investigation into the RTC and that my DD's name was brought up. Of course they cannot say who filed the report. The allegation is physical abuse.

The thought has crossed my mind. He does not like not having control.  In our last conversation (via email) he said I have my opinion and he has his to which I responded that's right so unless you want to take her, keep yours to yourself.  This after he was going on and on about how DD is

a normal teenager who does normal teenage things' alluding that she shouldn

't even be in an RTC.

[raytamtay3]

I spoke to DD and her therapist over the weekend on the phone and they both said DD made status for the week. But now I just checked with her CM and she said DD lied, that she did not make status and in fact ran again last night around 9:30 pm - 2:30 am with 3 other females and 7 males... . what the heck!

[jellibeans]

I don't understand how these kids are getting away... . it really doesn't make sense.

[Verbena]

Raymaytay, I am starting to agree with your DD and your ex that this really not be the place for her, but not because it's too strict or not able to help her or treating her badly as they seem to think.   It's not the place for her because it allows her too much freedom and is not nearly secure enough. 

Your dd is going to push the limits of any place that is not a secure, lock-down facility.  She is going to get away with as much as she can, and apparently they are unable to control her or even keep her there.  I think your daughter needs the strictect environment possible just to keep her safe from herself and her behavior. 

If she can't/won't make some big changes, jail is in her future.  As hard as I know this would be for me accept if I were in your shoes, my advice would be to let her PO know what is going on (or have the RTC contact the PO) and allow the chips to fall where they may.  She is going to end up locked up because of her choices, and that will not be your fault.  You've done everything you know to do.  Something has to get her attention. 

[pessim-optimist]

In our last conversation (via email) he said I have my opinion and he has his to which I responded that's right so unless you want to take her, keep yours to yourself.  

Is this even an option? Not that I would advise it, but I was under the impression that it's RTC or juvie for your DD with no option to go home for the time being... . Did I misunderstand?